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(AP)   Many Americans seem willing to believe that a 10-year US military veteran, worn down by four tours of combat and perhaps suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, simply snapped in Afghanistan   (hosted.ap.org ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Afghanistan, Americans, post-traumatic stress disorders, U.S., U.S. military, make excuses, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Northeastern University  
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16626 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Mar 2012 at 6:37 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-03-18 10:18:29 PM  
16 votes:

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


It's less about excusing someone's actions so much as realizing this sort of shiat is an absolutely predictable consequence of how the military has been abused in the last 10 years.

Your first reaction to hearing about a soldier massacring a bunch of women and children is "OMG how could that happen?" Then you get a backstory and realize, "OMG how could that NOT happen?"

I'm surprised it doesn't happen more, to be honest.

War is hell, and the people who adocate for it should be forced to take point.
2012-03-18 10:06:35 PM  
10 votes:
Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.
2012-03-18 09:48:39 PM  
10 votes:
Amputation and brain injury, and in the shiat?

Yeah, I think it's plausible.

Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.
2012-03-18 11:17:35 PM  
8 votes:

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


fark you. Seriously. You aren't helping AT ALL. You think you're being all "contrary" with your stupid farking opinion, but the reality is, you're just a little child trying to say something shocking.

No one is excusing this guy, we're trying to figure out WHY it happened. His life is over. We all know that.


But you go ahead. Try to get some attention from the adults by standing on your chair and screaming.
2012-03-18 10:20:50 PM  
7 votes:

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


....while unintentionally insulting the rest of the troops. Quite a few of the guys in the infantry, cavalry, Rangers, Special Forces, etc. for as long as he has been, have been through the same shiat, if not worse. There's thousands, if not tens of thousands. Yet I can count on one hand the number of guys who have "snapped," and none have snapped as epically as this farking psycho.

The other guys who "snapped" at least had a method to their madness. They officers and NCOs whom the felt were hazing and harassing them. They killed civilians whom they thought were insurgents. This dude dragged kids out of bed, shot them in the head, and then set them on fire.
2012-03-18 10:48:18 PM  
6 votes:

GAT_00: But any standard of fairness says he gets an Afghan trial. But we don't do fairness.


The greatest delusion people seem to have is that life is intrinsicly fair. Bad things happen to good people all the time, and visa versa. The only fairness we get in life is what we give each other. Bombing the shiat out of a country and occupying it for almost 10 years is antithetical to fairness.
2012-03-18 10:16:21 PM  
6 votes:
Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.
2012-03-19 07:17:55 AM  
5 votes:
Assuming that he's guilty: Yes, he probably snapped. Yes, he was in a shiat situation. Yes, he likely had PTSD and a brain injury and too much to drink. But, he should be executed for what he did. And before he's lined up for the firing squad, his commanders should apologize to him for forgetting their duty to him and the rest of the military, for treating the armed forces like pieces in a game of Risk, and for putting them in an untenable situation with no clear mission in a part of the world that would be better walled off like a zoo. He forgot his duty, but not before we forgot ours.
2012-03-18 10:19:37 PM  
5 votes:
Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.
2012-03-18 10:18:30 PM  
5 votes:

jim32rr: No one has excused him here. In a courtroom what you call excuses are called extenuating circumstances or mitigating factors


This isn't a courtroom, it's the US media making excuses that they would never make for non Americans.
2012-03-19 06:42:54 AM  
4 votes:
So they bropught this guy home and left everyone else there... seems a bit ass-backward.
2012-03-19 12:10:56 AM  
4 votes:
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk
I see. Go on.
2012-03-18 11:18:58 PM  
3 votes:
I wouldn't defend his actions, nor would I for a second argue with whatever punishment that may follow a proper trial, but I do have sympathy for any of our troops that have been kept in the service far longer than they should have, deployed longer than just about any troops in US history, and generally used as tools of diplomacy instead of defending the country against direct threats.
2012-03-18 11:17:09 PM  
3 votes:

Ambivalence: War is hell, and the people who adocate for it should be forced to take point.


www.chinatalkingpoints.com
2012-03-18 10:15:24 PM  
3 votes:

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


No one has excused him here. In a courtroom what you call excuses are called extenuating circumstances or mitigating factors
2012-03-19 12:36:57 PM  
2 votes:

publikenemy: CapnBlues: publikenemy: I long for the days when you can protest the president and his war, without being branded a racist. We need us some protesting, but it's definitely not in style with a black pres......sigh.....

i'll bite.

go ahead and protest. seriously, go ahead. are you mad that the young democrats aren't protesting the wars anymore? If you want protests to happen, you need to go demonstrate. why would you sit on your ass and wait for "the hippies" to do your work for you? what are you, some kind of hippy? if you protest war, you won't be labelled as a racist, unless your slogan is "get us out of the n-word's dirty war!" or something along those lines.

Too busy working to protest. I was hoping the OWS crowd would get a clue as to where some protesting would actually mean something. Pennsylvania Ave. would be a good place to start. You know, we could draw a hitler moustache on the president like we did for Bus....er..o ya, we can't do that...dammitsomuch race baiters


In case you aren't aware (and it's pretty clear you aren't), there's been an Occupy camp on Pennsylvania Ave for the past several months...just a couple of blocks from the White House in fact. I believe it is one of the last existing Occupy camps in the country.

Also, in regards to your hitler stash comment, ever hear of Lyndon LaRouche? His people are all over the place in DC with their pics of Obama with a hitler stash:

Link (new window)
2012-03-19 12:03:49 PM  
2 votes:
I'm a veteran with multiple deployments to Iraq and I have been diagnosed with PTSD, so I think I have a clearer understanding of this situation than most people. It's my opinion that he didn't 'just snap'. It would be one thing if his platoon got hit by an IED or something and he lost control and killed a bunch of civilians in the heat of the moment, but from what I understand he snuck away in the middle of the night and murdered sleeping families. Was rage a contributing factor? Sure, if by 'contributing factor' one really means motive. You do feel a lot of anger toward the local population in a situation like this, even if you make a real effort to look at things from their point of view; that just happens when people are trying to kill you. Anger does not excuse murdering 9 children, not even a little.
2012-03-19 11:57:16 AM  
2 votes:
So, one guy snaps after several tours, brain damage, harassment and he is a monster. It is a monstrous act, but our foreign involvement in this is much worse.

We have been told we are fight this war over false pretense, manufactured evidence and for the deaths of 3,000 people the coalition forces have civilian causalities in the hundreds of thousands.

As a former soldier and a veteran. We don't need to be over there. period.

Remember the Walter Reed scandal? Our soldiers are coming back and being abandoned or shiat on for their service. Maimed and disfigured. Either way its horrible.

Hey at least the military industrial complex is making making. Xe, Blackwater Halliburton,
2012-03-19 09:35:31 AM  
2 votes:

chuckufarlie: CheatCommando: Earguy: Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.

Gotta pay for those tax cuts somehow.

Every major war we have fought before George W. Dipshiat involved tax hikes, new taxes, and some sacrifice by the public. Then the morons who currently run the GOP decided that they couldn't get their war on if it was fought responsibly.

sacrifice by the public?

Desert Storm - what sacrifice?

Viet Nam - what sacrifice?

Korea - what sacrifice?


America is not at war. The Marines are at war. America is at the mall.
2012-03-19 09:27:52 AM  
2 votes:

Earguy: Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.


Gotta pay for those tax cuts somehow.

Every major war we have fought before George W. Dipshiat involved tax hikes, new taxes, and some sacrifice by the public. Then the morons who currently run the GOP decided that they couldn't get their war on if it was fought responsibly.
2012-03-19 08:43:37 AM  
2 votes:
After our first tour to Iraq in 2006, my platoon was farked up. Drinking, drugs, dui's, russian roulette, we did anything you could possibly imagine. We were young and lucky. We lost best man in our platoon and our company had lots of wounded, but we'd survived. And we were grateful and confused. So we tried to kill ourselves at home. 2nd platoon had one suicide over there. I found the body. Whatever, though. Right? The worst part of it was not that you'd survived and you knew guys who didn't. It wasn't that you had both legs and you knew guys who didn't (Alvo would lose both of his on his 3rd tour in Afghanistan). It was that you knew you were going back. It was always there in the back of your mind. Everything you did had a shadow behind it. It whispered that the war wasn't over and that it would get us next time. So we did whatever we could to keep that from happening. So we stopped caring. We saw doctors. The leadership grumbled because the doctor got you out of work. Eventually the doctor got you out of the Army. For some it was drugs. I love ecstasy more than I love you guys so I'm going home to North Carolina. I loved my friends and even I tried to weasel out. The doctors said I could go home, and I wanted to, but I couldn't leave my brothers. So I stayed and drank. My Commander said I could do paperwork in Texas for a year rather than go back, but I could't let my brothers go without me, so I stayed. Eventually what was left of A Co. went back to Iraq in 2008. A core group from the first time and a lot of FNG's. And nothing happened for the whole year. The uneventful tour lulled many into a false sense of security. So they reenlisted for places like Hawaii and Italy which are light units. We came home and the shadow started whispering again. We had forgotten, but he knew. He took them to Afghanistan with their new brothers and starting killing and maiming them there. That wasn't it, though. My war was over as it was for most of my brothers. But they still kept dying. A month ago my old platoon sergeant kill himself. A few months before that a good friend of mine died under mysterious circumstances. Still more are going to prison. The old behavior from 2007 is still there. And we struggle every day because of those 2 years. We always will. We will keep dying and failing by the wayside even as the wars end.
When you tell your chain of command that your brain hurts and you don't want to deploy again. They tell you to suck it up and drive on. It's strange because everyone has done multiple tours. Everyone who counts, at least. It's hard to get help. There is a stigma, but it's different than it's portrayed in the news. It's not as much as about weakness of the individual as it is about everyone else has to go and you do, too. Everyone else has lost friends and killed men and women and children, so suck it up and drive on. You're not special and you're brain is no more broken than mine. Eventually you just get so sick of asking for help that you give up. And you know the next deployment is coming. You just do. It feels like there is nothing you can do to stop it. The inexorable march towards another year. It causes physical pain. So you drink. And you train. For me, because I was only ever doing my 4 years and getting out, I could at least see a light. Jerks made me do 5 (thanks stop loss!). But it ends. For career guys? You can hide in TRADOC as a recruiter or drill sergeant for a little while, but you know when your time is up there, you're going back. You're always going back.
2012-03-19 08:29:50 AM  
2 votes:
I watched Fox and Friends for a while on Sunday morning, and the grinning idiots on that show addressed this story. Fox is having a very hard time processing this story. It's pretty clear that they want to say two different things: "This guy didn't murder anyone. If an America soldier kills someone, then by definition, the corpses were terrorists." And, "This is Obama's fault, it's his war now, and this noble hero finally snapped under the strain. Don't hold him responsible, hold Obama responsible."

But of course openly advocating the murder of Afghan children is (for now) still over the line, and the "blame Obama" approach undercuts the neocon line they've been holding up for so many years of, "War, war, war, endless war, kill brown people before they kill us, war, Keep America Safe, Support the Troops, Remember the Heroes. War."

You're hearing it here first: Fox will eventually come out as a supporter of this guy. They'll say, "While the left supports traitors like Bradley Manning, we're proud to defend a noble American hero, a decorated veteran, a family man."
2012-03-19 07:46:50 AM  
2 votes:

publikenemy: I long for the days when you can protest the president and his war, without being branded a racist. We need us some protesting, but it's definitely not in style with a black pres......sigh.....


i'll bite.

go ahead and protest. seriously, go ahead. are you mad that the young democrats aren't protesting the wars anymore? If you want protests to happen, you need to go demonstrate. why would you sit on your ass and wait for "the hippies" to do your work for you? what are you, some kind of hippy? if you protest war, you won't be labelled as a racist, unless your slogan is "get us out of the n-word's dirty war!" or something along those lines.
2012-03-19 07:35:26 AM  
2 votes:

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


Nobody, but nobody, is excusing this behaviour.

The point is, you can't continually subject a person to stress and violence and not expect it to have an effect on that person. A person who kills kids in cold blood is a person who kills kids in cold blood.

The point a lot of lesser minds while focus on is the what, and not the why. Terrorists will kill children in cold blood to terrorize the populace, to bend them to their will. A person who has snapped will kill children in cold blood because they're no longer a proper vehicle for their right mind and their conscience.

In other words, unlike genuine child-murderers, or even twisted farks like that puppy-killing sack of shiat David Motari, a person who has genuinely snapped has gone insane, they've lost their grip on what is right and what is wrong. They no longer functionally understand right and wrong, they no longer have any morality whatsoever. It's not that they're amoral, or immoral, it's that they're no longer capable, at a functional level, of making the choice to be that way.

And in that, there's a massive distinction. I can get behind the mentality of some jihadist that sees American tanks rolling into his country, his family called collateral damage, and decides to strap on a suicide vest and blow up a checkpoint. I can empathize with that. I can see the world through his eyes. What I can't understand is when a guy like that straps on a suicide vest and walks into a market full of women and kids.

Similarly, I can empathize with a soldier who's stressed to the limit, a warrior who's been held responsible for the wars he's charged with prosecuting at the whims of Congress and the President, who has been grinded over and over in combat, seen violence, had violence done to him, and lost his grip on reality. That man is as much a victim of circumstances as the people he killed. That man stops being a sovereign moral agent and becomes an instrument for (and victim of) the madness he perpetrates on others, as much as it is the madness that has been perpetrated on him.

That is, if he genuinely snapped. If he farking killed people for fun, then he's a monster.
2012-03-19 07:06:47 AM  
2 votes:

downpaymentblues: lizaardvark: Bit'O'Gristle: and seeing your brothers blown to bits time and time again

Yerr, ah, except they don't, you know. We have barely any casualties to speak of, it's probably much more dangerous to drive in downtown traffic. It's another bloody little excursion for the benefit of our politicians, against people who are effectively armed with sticks.

I am curious. Did you serve any time, do any tours in Iraq or Afghanistan? Do you feel qualified to dismiss the daily stress and pressure soldiers are under because you have been over there?



i.dailymail.co.uk

I know what you mean. If your own peeps are bad enough to make you commit suicide, imagine interacting with the locals as well!

Asian-American soldier was forced by comrades to crawl 100m on gravel while being pelted with rocks hours before he killed himsel (new window)
2012-03-19 06:47:42 AM  
2 votes:
From: Link (new window) published in 2010.

Ms. KENNEDY: Well, soon after McKinney's suicide, another they'd been told to go out on patrol, and they said that road's black, there's bombs on that road. We know that we're not supposed to go on that road. And because of the weather, they couldn't get back out to Apache during a sandstorm or something.

That mission for them got cancelled, and they sent out another company instead. And those guys went out in their 30-ton Bradley and hit another deep-buried IED, and June 21st happened all over again.

And these guys were in a different company, but they were friends, still. They were guys they knew. And it felt like for the guys like their leadership had let them down, had let them die. So yeah, they went to mental health, and they said if we go on patrol in Hamadia, we're going to kill everyone in our paths. We're so angry that we cannot function with any kind of ethical code at this point.

And the therapist and the mental health counselor said, you know, at some point, you need to stand down. If you guys think that you're going to make bad decisions and do things that are going to ruin your lives and others', then you need to stand down.

GROSS: Okay, so you have this whole platoon that decides that they can't go out again. They're even afraid that they're going to end up killing civilians and going to jail for it, because they're that angry. They truly feel like they cannot contain their anger anymore.

So what did their leadership have to say? I mean, you know, the mental health experts agreed these men shouldn't go out. What did the leadership have to say?

Ms. KENNEDY: Well, the leadership was there was definitely a lack of communication. The company commander didn't know about the trip to the mental health clinic, and he didn't know about the medications they were on.
2012-03-18 11:53:57 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Has there been anything leaked that would get him excused for 16 murders?


Once again, who here said he should be excused? I just see people pointing out there are reasons that should be looked into so the military commands can avoid a repeat of this.

The man had a traumatic brain injury in 2010 and PTSD. He asked not to be deployed again. He already had multiple run ins with the law. It should have been pretty clear that he shouldn't be deployed again, but he was. People can ask serious questions about how this man was sent back out into a war zone with "excusing" him for what he did.

It seems you are more interested in playing politics with this particular issue than looking for solutions to help prevent it happening again.
2012-03-18 11:26:40 PM  
2 votes:

Weaver95: I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.


No, not necessarily. The information about the brain injury and the three tours wasn't immediately known. The douchebags who raped a 14 year old girl in Iraq and set her whole family on fire didn't have any sort of mitigating factors, they were just evil. They would have been evil engineers, evil doctors, evil convenience store clerks, evil office drones. That sort of person does exist.
2012-03-18 11:25:07 PM  
2 votes:

R.A.Danny: Weaver95: GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.

you just described most of Apple's fan base.

I almost thought I saw "Applebees" there and... nevermind.


every time some wannabe hipster jackhole uses the term 'mystical sky wizard' I automatically think about the Apple fanbois and their slavish devotion to anything with the Apple logo.

you'd think that a supposedly intelligent atheist dedicated to logic and reason could come up with ANYTHING better than 'dude hur hur sky wizzards! y ur dumb! hur hur'.

*sigh*

humans.
2012-03-18 11:17:37 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.


you just described most of Apple's fan base.
2012-03-18 10:28:04 PM  
2 votes:

Sgt Otter: ....while unintentionally insulting the rest of the troops. Quite a few of the guys in the infantry, cavalry, Rangers, Special Forces, etc. for as long as he has been, have been through the same shiat, if not worse. There's thousands, if not tens of thousands. Yet I can count on one hand the number of guys who have "snapped," and none have snapped as epically as this farking psycho.


That depends on what you mean by "snapped". There have been many incidents of "snapping" that don't involve slaughtering civilians that rarely make the news. In theater suicides, "fragging" COs. I work with a guy who only did one tour in Afghanistan. He did snap and threaten to kill his Sgt. in his sleep, and meant every word of it.

The only thing uncommon about this guy snapping is the magnitude and body count.
2012-03-20 01:20:18 AM  
1 vote:
If you believe the official line that ONE soldier did this, you're a bigger fool than anyone who believed the single bullet theory.
2012-03-19 02:22:06 PM  
1 vote:

chuckufarlie: CheatCommando: chuckufarlie: sacrifice by the public?

Desert Storm - what sacrifice?

Viet Nam - what sacrifice?

Korea - what sacrifice?

For the last two, you apparently have never heard of a little thing called the draft and I would put Desert Storm in the same category as Panama or Grenada: a minor conflict that did not last long.

Although, it doesn't surprise me that anyone who would defend the Chimp and Dick "other priorities" Cheney would forget about the draft.

gee, dumbass, I did not defend either of them. You need to lay off the paint chips.


He's right though.

Vietnam - Draft
Korea - Draft
Desert Storm - one of the times GHWB broke his no-new-taxes pledge.

Beyond those examples, it's just plain good policy to ground a country's sabre rattling in some reality. You want these people dead? Don't forget you have to send your sons and daughters there to do it. Don't forget that those bullets cost money, those planes cost money, those boats... they cost money. Don't forget that nothing is certain in war, and we could be there for 2 hours, or 2 years, or 2 decades. Don't forget that people will die. Lots of people. On both sides.

How do you get people talking about these things instead of just rah rah, they'll greet us as liberators? Draft. War Taxes. Easy. It's a stop-gap to make sure we have the national will to do what is being asked of us BEFORE we end up doing it and realizing too late that it was a mistake.
2012-03-19 02:16:27 PM  
1 vote:
I've seen the horror. Horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that, but you have no right to judge me . It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face, and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and mortal terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies t o be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces--it seems a thousand centuries ago--we went into a camp to inoculate it. The children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us, and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile--a pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it, I never want to forget. And then I realized--like I was shot...like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, "My God, the genius of that, the genius, the will to do that." Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they could stand that--these were not monsters, these were men, trained cadres, these men who fought with their hearts, who have families, who have children, who are filled wi th love--that they had this strength, the strength to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, then our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral and at the same time were able to utilize their primordial i nstincts to kill without feeling, without passion, without judgment--without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.

/obscure?
//
2012-03-19 02:11:16 PM  
1 vote:

what_now: No one is excusing this guy, we're trying to figure out WHY it happened. His life is over. We all know that..


The point is that no one seems to try to figure out WHY terrorists do what they do. If one of the villagers from this village now goes and plants an IED, I doubt people would be giving him much sympathy. Many of the insurgents have lost family, seen death and destruction -- many of the female suicide bombers are widows, etc.

This is similar to the "missing white girl" phenomenon -- we are too selective in what we care about and where we extend our empathy.

In fact, figuring out why other people are trying to kill us is likely MORE worthwhile than figuring out why this guy did what he did.
2012-03-19 12:09:54 PM  
1 vote:

Maul555: It would be insane to hand him over to the Afghanis. You cannot set the precedent to our soldiers that we will abandon you to foreign governments if you make a mistake for any reason... Nobody in their right mind would enter military service.


Yeah, I changed my mind because of that. If we turn him over, do we also turn over people who fire a rocket at the wrong target? Bad precedent.

After Viet Nam, Congress made a law pretty much requiring National Guard and Reserve forces to go overseas in certain positions. Their logic was that it would make war so horrible for non-professional soldiers that we'd only go to war when it was essential.

Well, they made it horrible for them, all right. But it didn't keep us out of wars.
2012-03-19 11:56:33 AM  
1 vote:

Discernibly Turgid: But if my nation was a third world stone age country like Afghanistan, and run by religious freaks[creationists] and fanatical gunmen[NRA] who ran their own private serfdoms[Wisconsin], and a benevolent nation offered[trolling?] to come in an return my country to a free democracy and rid the country of the thugs, then I'd give them some leeway if one of THEIR volunteers who were risking THEIR lives (to clean up my stone age ass-backwards country defile our dead and desecrate our holy scripture) happened to loose his sanity and murder some civilians women and children.


Suuure you would.
2012-03-19 11:52:16 AM  
1 vote:

Discernibly Turgid: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Discernibly Turgid: What I do have a problem with is the reaction from the Afghani's.

Imagine foreign soldier's occupying the US for ten years.
Then a mass murder including women and children.

You'd be fine with it?

No. Not this country.

But if my nation was a third world stone age country like Afghanistan, and run by religious freaks and fanatical gunmen who ran their own private serfdoms, and a benevolent nation offered to come in an return my country to a free democracy and rid the country of the thugs, then I'd give them some leeway if one of THEIR volunteers who were risking THEIR lives (to clean up my stone age ass-backwards country) happened to loose his sanity and murder some civilians.

Wouldn't you?


No. I'd do my damnedest to see that the horrors such a country inflicted on me and mine were inflicted on them. Hopefully in a nuclear fireball either in their capitol or one of their two biggest cities.
2012-03-19 11:34:09 AM  
1 vote:
Glenn Greenwald makes the point that I and some others have been making, although he does it much better:

There is, quite obviously, a desperate need to believe that when an American engages in acts of violence of this type (meaning: as a deviation from formal American policy), there must be some underlying mental or emotional cause that makes it sensible, something other than an act of pure hatred or Evil. When a Muslim engages in acts of violence against Americans, there is an equally desperate need to believe the opposite: that this is yet another manifestation of inscrutable hatred and Evil, and any discussion of any other causes must be prohibited and ignored.
Link (new window)
2012-03-19 11:33:53 AM  
1 vote:

Kurmudgeon: Ambivalence: War is hell, and the people who adocate for it should be forced to take point.

[www.chinatalkingpoints.com image 600x450]


Apparently you've been out of it for a few years.
There a new Commander in Chief to take point.
2012-03-19 11:24:59 AM  
1 vote:
I knew a guy who got back from Iraq and told me that TWICE he had to mow down a car full of kids at a check point because the drivers didn't hear him tell them to stop. (Language barrier, anyone?) Literally just a couple of seconds of confusion, and bam, you and your whole family is DEAD. After sifting through the carcasses, it was determined that neither incident was ever a threat, and he just added to his civilian body count. He adamently defending his actions and never showed any remorse. He had five more unarmed victims than the guy we're talking about. And he got an honorable discharge.
2012-03-19 10:42:44 AM  
1 vote:
Too bad those Afghan idiots don't get so worked up when a Taliban member blows up 50 people at a market.

Pull everyone out, let them all kill each other. No more aid, or even diplomatic relations. How hard is this?
2012-03-19 10:35:45 AM  
1 vote:

Earguy: Amputation and brain injury, and in the shiat?

Yeah, I think it's plausible.

Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.


Now, now. Our DOD head explained that away:

As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have.

There, nice and tidy. All better.

/I bet he doesn't travel out of the country much
2012-03-19 10:16:42 AM  
1 vote:
I read some pretty farked up posts from military friends I went to high school with and once thought had their shiat together after this happened about how Islam was a mud religion and the men in Afghanistan were pederasts and the women unclean. I think there's a lot of unhingedness going on in the ranks after 10+ years of constant warfare.

We're going to have some farked up serial killers and mass murder over the next 15 years from vets that couldn't take it anymore.
2012-03-19 10:07:14 AM  
1 vote:

7of7: jim32rr: No one has excused him here. In a courtroom what you call excuses are called extenuating circumstances or mitigating factors

This isn't a courtroom, it's the US media making excuses that they would never make for non Americans.


Or most people charged with murder crimes for that matter.

So basically what I get from this is that if I suddenly 'snap' I can murder a whole gaggle of innocent people with relative impunity. Add extra bonus points if I'm wearing a military uniform- Roger that.
2012-03-19 09:32:23 AM  
1 vote:
Doesn't matter.

The last service this guy can provide to his country is to found guilty and be executed. Anything less and it is instant game over in Afghanistan. The local authorities are trying to keep a lid on this by promising this guy will be brought to justice. If justice consists of hospitalization the Afghan people will take it as being swept under the carpet.

Also, as other posters have said, lots of people serving have gone through the same (or worse) and NOT slaughtered a bunch of children and then set them on fire.

Sad all around.
2012-03-19 09:24:24 AM  
1 vote:

HotWingConspiracy: publikenemy: Too busy working to protest.

So you don't really care.


And he's actually just mad that people aren't treating this president exactly the same way the last one was treated. Despite him being lambasted over a great many things, including some of the Bush policies he chose to continue. And he's really mad at OWS for not marching on Pennsylvania Ave., despite them doing just that. Repeatedly.

He's really mad.

But you know. Not *that* mad.
2012-03-19 08:53:42 AM  
1 vote:

Publikwerks: While I think we need to learn from what happened and work to get soldiers the help they need and deserve for PTSD, once you start killing civilians (Especially kids), I don't give a damn what disorders you have. At that point, you are a criminal, and need to be treated as such


What he did is criminal, there's no doubt about that, but the question is whether or not it was also criminally insane. "BUT ALL CRIME IS INSANITY!", one might argue, but they would be wrong.

If -- IF -- he was genuinely insane, genuinely mentally defective at the time, then punishing him serves no purpose. None. None whatsoever. In fact, it sends the worst message it possibly could: The military will grind you up, put you in harm's way for your country, see violence done to you, recycle you over and over, and if so much as one wire shorts out, we'll wash our hands of the blood on yours, put you up against a wall, and shoot you. That is absolutely barbaric.

On the other hand if the guy wasn't crazy then yeah, fark him, he killed kids.
2012-03-19 08:53:28 AM  
1 vote:
In the current lexicon of fake cops, soccermoms, CNN, school boards and Dr. Phil, a traumatic brain injury could be anything from losing part of your brain to bumping you head on a cabinet door. Just saying, that when the Army spokesperson tells you about TBI they're not really being clear WTF they're talking about.
2012-03-19 08:42:41 AM  
1 vote:
There is no excuse in the world for killing innocent civilians. None. bleeding hearts need to stop drinking the kool aid. What would happen to this guy if he did it to American civilians? He'd be electric. Turn him over to Afghanistan. If we shield him, everything we've tried to do there will be lost, and the 3rd world will hate us even more. Being at war for 10 years, or the fact that we're there at all has absolutely nothing to do with this. He farked up. He needs to be held accountable. That's it!
2012-03-19 08:42:37 AM  
1 vote:

Dr. Mojo PhD: a person who has genuinely snapped has gone insane, they've lost their grip on what is right and what is wrong. They no longer functionally understand right and wrong, they no longer have any morality whatsoever. It's not that they're amoral, or immoral, it's that they're no longer capable, at a functional level, of making the choice to be that way.


While this may be true, it is mitigated by the fact that after he went and murdered 16 people, he walked back into his base, turned himself in and asked for a lawyer.

People with no understanding of right and wrong don't tend to do that.
2012-03-19 08:40:20 AM  
1 vote:
AFGHANI:

upload.wikimedia.org

AFGHAN:

upload.wikimedia.org
2012-03-19 08:34:54 AM  
1 vote:

jakomo002: Bit'O'Gristle: And the added stress of the Afganies turning against us, and shooting the US soldiers, ya, the guy just probably snapped. In his mind, he probably had nowhere that was safe, and everyone was his enemy. And the added fact that there was no way, no way at all, to tell a afgani citizen from a full retard islamic fundie. They would all look the same, you just wouldn't know if they would shoot you in the back after they waved at you all friendly like.

Riiiight. Except if he "snapped", he was surrounded by Americans who he could have easily shot up, too. No, he actually went to the village and massacred the families. Set a few on fire too, if I remember it specifically.

As much as it might be a "traumatic brain injury" to blame, it's also the shocking racism in the Armed Forces.

I mean, seriously, is this huge? You had the massacre in Haditha, wedding parties being blown to pieces, US soldiers slaughtering 17 Afghanis at a traffic light two years ago, etc etc ETC.

You might not see the natural progression of this, but believe me, Afghanis sure do.

"Sorry we killed your entire family by mistake" must REALLY get old really quick.


THIS

dl.dropbox.com

It's long past time to GTFO.
2012-03-19 08:27:55 AM  
1 vote:
JamesWhitsun
How did we fail him? He was a volunteer. He was a 10 year veteran, which means he must have re-enlisted at least twice. That's 3 times minimum he signed his name and took the oath, during wartime.

Also, don't put "war" in double quotes: That's ironic quoting, and it doesn't fit her. Afghanistan is a war by any definition: It was openly declared by an act of Congress, and it is a shooting war.

Neither we, nor his commanders, bear *ANY* responsibility. He violated military regulations, US law, and international law in a most egregious fashion, unlike any of the soldiers he served with. Mass murder of innocents is *NEVER* excusable, and he *KNEW* that. He needs to swing for it.

If, as you posit, we bear some of the responsibility, then it is also our responsibility to ourselves, the military, and to the Afghan people to show that will not tolerate such behavior.


Ya know what? I'll respectfully disagree. When you are dealing with a brain damaged alcoholic, you don't know what you have on your hands. Or what you'll deal with, military or not. If CO knew of his mental state and alcoholism, yep, they're at fault for allowing him to re-inlist as well.
2012-03-19 08:20:47 AM  
1 vote:

ChubbyTiger: JamesWhitsun: biggestdog420: his commanders should be held as responsible.

Why?

Because the command, both military and civilian (read Congress and the president) have been idiots add far as running this "war". Hence, we, the electorate, have failed in our duty to them, just as this guy failed in his duty. We, indirectly, and his commanders, more directly, bear some responsibility for this crap.


How did we fail him? He was a volunteer. He was a 10 year veteran, which means he must have re-enlisted at least twice. That's 3 times minimum he signed his name and took the oath, during wartime.

Also, don't put "war" in double quotes: That's ironic quoting, and it doesn't fit her. Afghanistan is a war by any definition: It was openly declared by an act of Congress, and it is a shooting war.

Neither we, nor his commanders, bear *ANY* responsibility. He violated military regulations, US law, and international law in a most egregious fashion, unlike any of the soldiers he served with. Mass murder of innocents is *NEVER* excusable, and he *KNEW* that. He needs to swing for it.

If, as you posit, we bear some of the responsibility, then it is also our responsibility to ourselves, the military, and to the Afghan people to show that will not tolerate such behavior.
2012-03-19 08:20:11 AM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: what_now: No one is excusing this guy, we're trying to figure out WHY it happened. His life is over. We all know that..

I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.


Most would argue that four tours of duty in that shiathole that will revert back to tribalism no matter how long we stay might have something to do it.
2012-03-19 08:19:25 AM  
1 vote:
I don't see any method at all, sir.
2012-03-19 08:11:59 AM  
1 vote:

KrispyKritter: you are aware that a person is not sane when they run amuck like this soldier did, right? insanity and/or mental illness calls for a little compassion even in extreme cases.


The compassionate thing would be to kill him as quickly as possible.
2012-03-19 08:03:22 AM  
1 vote:
So everyone still believes it was just a single guy?

He just went to the guard at 2 AM in the morning and said he was going on patrol, alone?

Cause you can bet your ass he had to go through the checkpoint, that perimeter would have been farking scrutinized especially after the previous week's riots and attacks.

And once he got out, he killed the people in one village, then walked 3 miles to the next, then back to base, with his half-amputated foot?
2012-03-19 07:59:58 AM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.


You can ask the sky wizard for stuff, dont forget that. It's the best part. When you get it, it's because the sky wizard favors you. When you dont its because you are dumn and cant understand the sky wizard's infinite wisdom.
2012-03-19 07:56:54 AM  
1 vote:

JamesWhitsun: Bomb Head Mohammed: contrast to: "act of valor", the current movie which is basically "call of duty, the movie", paid for partially by your tax dollars.

I have no problem with that. We should have been doing films like that for the last 30 years. Outside of "Heartbreak Ridge", I can't think of a positive pro-modern military film that has come out of Hollywood since I was actually *IN* the military back in the 1980's. Like it or not, films are a large part of how people who've never been to the US form their opinions of us. You put out a bunch of films that show only the bad side, then people won't get a balanced viewpoint. That's why "Act of Valor" is a *GOOD* thing.

/Just putting out "Rah-rah America Kicks Ass!" films would be just as bad


That's true, if you think film should be propaganda.
If film is art, however, it must be faithful to the truth - not "fair and balanced".
If nobody (unsubsidized by the military) is making films with the message you want to hear, it may be that the message you want to hear is false.
2012-03-19 07:53:05 AM  
1 vote:

publikenemy: So WHY are we still in Afghanistan again? Let's gtfo and these things will not happen. No reason to be there anymore. I do think this guy was broken in the brain somehow though. I'm glad I'm not the one that has to figure out what to do with him.


According to Rick Santorum (just a couple of minutes ago on MSNBC) it is because of Obama's failed policies. Apparently the first 7 years in Afghanistan was a success, but Obama has been a failure and we should just get out of Afghanistan if Obama is going to continue his "failed policies".

No word on exactly what was successful prior to Obama.
2012-03-19 07:49:11 AM  
1 vote:
what_now [TotalFark] 2012-03-18 11:12:40 PM

The first Rambo movie was 20 years ago.

It's not like we don't understand that this kinda thing could happen. It's that most people just don't give a fark. Jesus Christ wants us to kill brown people and the SUV needs cheap gas, so fark it. It's not my kid doing six tours in the desert.


People do care. People have protested and gotten arrested and been jailed protesting these wars from before they started to the present day.

What have they gotten for their trouble? More war and to be labeled "terrorist sympathizers" or "unpatriotioc".

I read somewhere yesterday that the morality of the wars we're fighting and the people we're killing is never questioned by our chicken-hawk poliiticians. Yet and still, those same politicians have the audacity to question the morality of women seeking out contraception. Not abortion even, just plain old birth control.

There's something vastly wrong where a woman can't buy a damn pill with some man telling her no claiming some holy cause - but that same man can send our men and women off to kill claiming that same holy cause.
2012-03-19 07:48:07 AM  
1 vote:

publikenemy: I long for the days when you can protest the president and his war, without being branded a racist. We need us some protesting, but it's definitely not in style with a black pres......sigh.....


Spotting a dog-whistle racist: brings up race in a situation that has nothing to do with it.
2012-03-19 07:46:11 AM  
1 vote:
Well of course he is white with a nice smile and they are all brown heathens.
2012-03-19 07:27:33 AM  
1 vote:

Bit'O'Gristle: /If you are a soldier, and you understand why he "snapped" then why don't you have any desire to see him get therapy, and be put away in a mental institution? That's like saying "well..ya ..he went crazy, and had no idea what he was doing, but well..fark him. He should die. Your post makes no sense.


Because he's a mass murderer that slaughtered women and children?

If he's crazy, then his pain will end as soon as his head is separated from his shoulders.
2012-03-19 07:23:52 AM  
1 vote:
still guilty if murder no matter how your PR wrap it.
2012-03-19 07:21:35 AM  
1 vote:
Many Americans seem willing to believe that a 10-year US military veteran, worn down by four tours of combat and perhaps suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, simply snapped in Afghanistan

I'm perfectly willing to believe that. We should still hang him by the neck until he is dead, after publicly stripping him of all rank and decorations.
2012-03-19 07:08:18 AM  
1 vote:
None of the perpetrators of the Me - Lai massacre ( Vietnam ) were ever convicted.

/ Putting the shoe on the other foot, would a Muslim who slaughtered 16 Americans in America live til the first day of his trial ?
2012-03-19 06:57:24 AM  
1 vote:
I fail to see how this is an excuse. This sort of thing happens, and only serves to provide more powerful arguments for the assertion that soldiers in combat need more screening for PTSD and CHIs, and that the standards for combat-readiness need to be tightened up so that soldiers suffering from these are removed from the field before they snap. This guy shouldn't get special treatment for the myriad lines he crossed, but the signs were there, and should have been spotted.

I've come to think, though I know this won't be popular, is that the uptick in untreated maladies like these is due, in part, to a well-meaning but misguided tendency to take soldiers coming home and drop them back into civilian life as quickly as possible. I would instead put them on a slow boat home, surrounded by comrades with whom to commiserate,and with access to home and job placement agents, representatives from veterans' organizations, and counseling. Every soldier on board would be screened for PTSD, CHIs, and other so-called "invisible" injuries, and matched up with treatment options at home when necessary. And, of course, there would need to be good facilities for communication; the point is not to gratuitously keep soldiers away from their families, but to give them a bit of a breather before reintegration into the civilian world: something that might, perhaps, be compared to a recovery house.

And absolutely none of that will help this guy. It's too late for that, and he should be dealt with as any other mass murderer. But as inexcusable as his actions were, he did fall through the cracks, and those cracks should be repaired.
Skr
2012-03-19 06:52:18 AM  
1 vote:
All I know is that I'm not qualified to judge him.
2012-03-19 06:51:35 AM  
1 vote:

Ambivalence: GAT_00: I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.

That is never going to happen. As much as the right likes to complain about Obama, American exceptionalism is still very much alive and well.


/That will never..ever..happen. Not only because he is a US soldier, and a citizen, but because we have to believe that their "justice" would be 1000 relatives stoning him to death, without any kind of trail beyond a kangaroo court, with no defense, and no looking at the other aspects of the situation. So ya, not gonna ever happen. And the population of the US would freak out if they tried that shiat.
2012-03-19 05:04:17 AM  
1 vote:
If I were his family, I'd be asking for the witness protection program ASAP.
Revenge is almost inevitable.
2012-03-19 02:45:08 AM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: Because saying I'm denigrating people isn't making a disparaging remark. Nope, not at all.


You weren't denigrating religious people when you said:

GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.


And you equate my saying you were denigrating people with your name calling?

I've noticed many times you feel the need to personally attack someone whose opinion differs from yours. My pointing out you were denigrating people with religious views wasn't a personal attack. It was an observable fact. Your attack on me was personal.

Your inability to see the difference isn't my problem though. Putting you on ignore will solve my issues with you.
2012-03-19 12:50:56 AM  
1 vote:

sno man: violentsalvation: sno man: violentsalvation: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.

Replace 'US soldier' with 'brown Muslim', and cut him the same slack.

I'm fine with handing him over to whatever color Muslims want him so they can try him and execute him. They have more color than me, but that doesn't play into my opinions. But shame on me for acknowledging the toll the wars have played on the minds and bodies of our finest.

OK, I'm with you, he's a serial killer and none of his prior experiences played into this, isolated incident, time to invade Iran.

Is that what you want? Or are you happy that Americans are finally becoming aware of the untold mental casualties of war?

Actually I think this guy should have been handed over to the Afghans that morning. Do you have any idea how much more f*cked up your guys have it there now until you get out for not having done that?

Untold mental casualties? Since Viet Nam? Since Desert Storm?

Time to invade Iran? Talk about untold mental casualty.


Untold mental casualties, yes, Americans are a forgetful bunch.
MBK [TotalFark]
2012-03-19 12:47:57 AM  
1 vote:
And yet, we have GOP Candidates saying that we should go back to Iraq and stay longer in Afghanistan.

Better yet, we should go to war with Iran!

Because fark the troops, my gas is at 4.50 and I want it to go back down to under 2 dollars so I can drive my POS SUV across the United States.
2012-03-19 12:33:40 AM  
1 vote:

sno man: violentsalvation: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.

Replace 'US soldier' with 'brown Muslim', and cut him the same slack.


I'm fine with handing him over to whatever color Muslims want him so they can try him and execute him. They have more color than me, but that doesn't play into my opinions. But shame on me for acknowledging the toll the wars have played on the minds and bodies of our finest.

OK, I'm with you, he's a serial killer and none of his prior experiences played into this, isolated incident, time to invade Iran.

Is that what you want? Or are you happy that Americans are finally becoming aware of the untold mental casualties of war?
2012-03-19 12:02:20 AM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: Don't worry, someone will.


Oh. My mistake. I didn't realize you were hunting for your confirmation bias. I thought you really wanted to discuss the issue.

GAT_00: And while I have snarked, I have said nothing I consider political. Go I would also suggest you either put your big girl panties on, or if you're already wearing them, then take them off and pull the stick out of your ass.


I made no disparaging remarks toward you. Why do you feel the need to attack me personally?

I'll stop responding to your posts.I have no need for someone like you in my online life.
2012-03-18 11:55:37 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: violentsalvation: And I agree, I wish we had left him there. I'm fine with the Afghanis beheading him or whatever they do.

Yeah, he's done enough that I would accept a death penalty, and I don't say that lightly.

And no, I don't think you're defending him. I'm just talking. But I suspect quite a lot of people are going to be trying to excuse this and say he shouldn't even be put on trial. More than a few of those people will want to give this guy a medal.


And those people are disgusting idiots, really. I suspect many of them are trolling or sarcastic, but those who honestly feel that way are also the type of people who proclaim undying support for the troops, while many American troops may die over this.
2012-03-18 11:52:40 PM  
1 vote:

what_now: The first Rambo movie was 20 years ago.

It's not like we don't understand that this kinda thing could happen. It's that most people just don't give a fark. Jesus Christ wants us to kill brown people and the SUV needs cheap gas, so fark it. It's not my kid doing six tours in the desert.


try 30 years ago. First Blood (1982).

which would make the lack of understanding even less implausible.
2012-03-18 11:50:21 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.


How does this have ANYTHING to do with the article? Did you just feel the need to denigrate religious people at random?
2012-03-18 11:41:39 PM  
1 vote:

R.A.Danny: How you got all that out of "Applebees" and still thought you were on subject is beyond me.


I don't think there's much to say about this incident. you keep putting soliders into afghanistan and then tell them not to talk about what they've seen or done, punish them for seeking professional psychiatric care, and telling 'em to suck it up and take it like a man then eventually some of those highly trained and well armed people are going to snap.

it's a testament to the discipline of our troops that there haven't been more incidents like this one.
2012-03-18 11:34:46 PM  
1 vote:

what_now: Weaver95: I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.

No, not necessarily. The information about the brain injury and the three tours wasn't immediately known. The douchebags who raped a 14 year old girl in Iraq and set her whole family on fire didn't have any sort of mitigating factors, they were just evil. They would have been evil engineers, evil doctors, evil convenience store clerks, evil office drones. That sort of person does exist.


Don't forget evil petting zoos ...

encrypted-tbn1.google.com
2012-03-18 11:20:09 PM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.

you just described most of Apple's fan base.


I almost thought I saw "Applebees" there and... nevermind.
2012-03-18 11:20:01 PM  
1 vote:

HawgWild: gotdamn, I love what_now ...


right back atcha kitten.
2012-03-18 11:18:48 PM  
1 vote:
gotdamn, I love what_now ...
2012-03-18 11:12:40 PM  
1 vote:
The first Rambo movie was 20 years ago.

It's not like we don't understand that this kinda thing could happen. It's that most people just don't give a fark. Jesus Christ wants us to kill brown people and the SUV needs cheap gas, so fark it. It's not my kid doing six tours in the desert.
2012-03-18 11:06:38 PM  
1 vote:

violentsalvation: it isn't about making excuses. It is about understanding what the wars have done to young Americans.


It's exactly about making excuses. The US media doesn't care what the wars have done, either to the US soldiers who volunteered for war or the Afghans and Iraqis who didn't. If it did it wouldn't continue to unquestioningly regurgitate the rhetoric of the people who support these wars and are pushing now for a war in Iran. Instead the media only cares to further the storyline of US troops as heroes and protectors despite all evidence to the contrary.
2012-03-18 11:06:07 PM  
1 vote:

violentsalvation: And I agree, I wish we had left him there. I'm fine with the Afghanis beheading him or whatever they do.


Yeah, he's done enough that I would accept a death penalty, and I don't say that lightly.

And no, I don't think you're defending him. I'm just talking. But I suspect quite a lot of people are going to be trying to excuse this and say he shouldn't even be put on trial. More than a few of those people will want to give this guy a medal.

Ambivalence: The only fairness we get in life is what we give each other.


Hence the idea that he should be tried in Afghanistan. It's potential future leverage should this happen to us.
2012-03-18 10:54:48 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: violentsalvation: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.

Has there been anything leaked that would get him excused for 16 murders? I mean, from what I've heard, Texas would execute this guy in a heartbeat. Well, if he was a black guy who killed 16 white people at any rate; it's less obvious if that comparison is valid for a white guy killing Muslims. If there was significant head trauma that would alter his mental state, then yes, he should not be put on trial. That would be the case here for any incident, it should be there too.

I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.


Not that I have seen, I mean, I'm not defending him, at all. 7of7's post is just ridiculous, it isn't about making excuses. It is about understanding what the wars have done to young Americans. As Ambivalence said:

"Your first reaction to hearing about a soldier massacring a bunch of women and children is "OMG how could that happen?" Then you get a backstory and realize, "OMG how could that NOT happen?"

And I agree, I wish we had left him there. I'm fine with the Afghanis beheading him or whatever they do.
2012-03-18 10:38:14 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.


That is never going to happen. As much as the right likes to complain about Obama, American exceptionalism is still very much alive and well.
2012-03-18 10:30:46 PM  
1 vote:

violentsalvation: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.


Has there been anything leaked that would get him excused for 16 murders? I mean, from what I've heard, Texas would execute this guy in a heartbeat. Well, if he was a black guy who killed 16 white people at any rate; it's less obvious if that comparison is valid for a white guy killing Muslims. If there was significant head trauma that would alter his mental state, then yes, he should not be put on trial. That would be the case here for any incident, it should be there too.

I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.
2012-03-18 10:01:02 PM  
1 vote:

Earguy: Amputation and brain injury, and in the shiat?

Yeah, I think it's plausible.

Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.


This.


Subby
2012-03-18 09:54:32 PM  
1 vote:
You forgot money problems and (apparently) alcohol issues.
 
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