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(AP)   Many Americans seem willing to believe that a 10-year US military veteran, worn down by four tours of combat and perhaps suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, simply snapped in Afghanistan   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 434
    More: Obvious, Afghanistan, Americans, post-traumatic stress disorders, U.S., U.S. military, make excuses, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Northeastern University  
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16610 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Mar 2012 at 6:37 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-18 09:48:39 PM  
Amputation and brain injury, and in the shiat?

Yeah, I think it's plausible.

Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.
 
2012-03-18 09:54:32 PM  
You forgot money problems and (apparently) alcohol issues.
 
2012-03-18 09:59:22 PM  
Oh, and a Traumatic Brain Injury in 2010.
 
2012-03-18 10:01:02 PM  

Earguy: Amputation and brain injury, and in the shiat?

Yeah, I think it's plausible.

Do I blame the Army for over-using their forces, especially the reservists? Hell yes.


This.


Subby
 
2012-03-18 10:06:35 PM  
Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.
 
2012-03-18 10:15:24 PM  

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


No one has excused him here. In a courtroom what you call excuses are called extenuating circumstances or mitigating factors
 
2012-03-18 10:16:21 PM  
Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.
 
2012-03-18 10:18:29 PM  

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


It's less about excusing someone's actions so much as realizing this sort of shiat is an absolutely predictable consequence of how the military has been abused in the last 10 years.

Your first reaction to hearing about a soldier massacring a bunch of women and children is "OMG how could that happen?" Then you get a backstory and realize, "OMG how could that NOT happen?"

I'm surprised it doesn't happen more, to be honest.

War is hell, and the people who adocate for it should be forced to take point.
 
2012-03-18 10:18:30 PM  

jim32rr: No one has excused him here. In a courtroom what you call excuses are called extenuating circumstances or mitigating factors


This isn't a courtroom, it's the US media making excuses that they would never make for non Americans.
 
2012-03-18 10:19:37 PM  
Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.
 
2012-03-18 10:20:50 PM  

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


....while unintentionally insulting the rest of the troops. Quite a few of the guys in the infantry, cavalry, Rangers, Special Forces, etc. for as long as he has been, have been through the same shiat, if not worse. There's thousands, if not tens of thousands. Yet I can count on one hand the number of guys who have "snapped," and none have snapped as epically as this farking psycho.

The other guys who "snapped" at least had a method to their madness. They officers and NCOs whom the felt were hazing and harassing them. They killed civilians whom they thought were insurgents. This dude dragged kids out of bed, shot them in the head, and then set them on fire.
 
2012-03-18 10:28:04 PM  

Sgt Otter: ....while unintentionally insulting the rest of the troops. Quite a few of the guys in the infantry, cavalry, Rangers, Special Forces, etc. for as long as he has been, have been through the same shiat, if not worse. There's thousands, if not tens of thousands. Yet I can count on one hand the number of guys who have "snapped," and none have snapped as epically as this farking psycho.


That depends on what you mean by "snapped". There have been many incidents of "snapping" that don't involve slaughtering civilians that rarely make the news. In theater suicides, "fragging" COs. I work with a guy who only did one tour in Afghanistan. He did snap and threaten to kill his Sgt. in his sleep, and meant every word of it.

The only thing uncommon about this guy snapping is the magnitude and body count.
 
2012-03-18 10:30:46 PM  

violentsalvation: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.


Has there been anything leaked that would get him excused for 16 murders? I mean, from what I've heard, Texas would execute this guy in a heartbeat. Well, if he was a black guy who killed 16 white people at any rate; it's less obvious if that comparison is valid for a white guy killing Muslims. If there was significant head trauma that would alter his mental state, then yes, he should not be put on trial. That would be the case here for any incident, it should be there too.

I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.
 
2012-03-18 10:38:14 PM  

GAT_00: I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.


That is never going to happen. As much as the right likes to complain about Obama, American exceptionalism is still very much alive and well.
 
2012-03-18 10:43:52 PM  

Ambivalence: GAT_00: I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.

That is never going to happen. As much as the right likes to complain about Obama, American exceptionalism is still very much alive and well.


Plus we have a treaty that expressly says no matter what a US soldier does to Afghan civilians, he gets a US trial.

I'm well aware there's not a chance in hell he gets tried in Afghanistan, especially since they don't seem to give all that much of a fark. They seem to riot all the time, and there hasn't been jack shiat since this guy went all Rambo on kids.

But any standard of fairness says he gets an Afghan trial. But we don't do fairness.
 
2012-03-18 10:48:18 PM  

GAT_00: But any standard of fairness says he gets an Afghan trial. But we don't do fairness.


The greatest delusion people seem to have is that life is intrinsicly fair. Bad things happen to good people all the time, and visa versa. The only fairness we get in life is what we give each other. Bombing the shiat out of a country and occupying it for almost 10 years is antithetical to fairness.
 
2012-03-18 10:54:48 PM  

GAT_00: violentsalvation: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about ignoring possible triggers, motivations, mental illness, and physical brain damage.

Has there been anything leaked that would get him excused for 16 murders? I mean, from what I've heard, Texas would execute this guy in a heartbeat. Well, if he was a black guy who killed 16 white people at any rate; it's less obvious if that comparison is valid for a white guy killing Muslims. If there was significant head trauma that would alter his mental state, then yes, he should not be put on trial. That would be the case here for any incident, it should be there too.

I also think he should be turned over to the Afghanis. We would demand that if a soldier here shot up a bunch of homes he be tried in an American court. We have no reason to not turn him over.


Not that I have seen, I mean, I'm not defending him, at all. 7of7's post is just ridiculous, it isn't about making excuses. It is about understanding what the wars have done to young Americans. As Ambivalence said:

"Your first reaction to hearing about a soldier massacring a bunch of women and children is "OMG how could that happen?" Then you get a backstory and realize, "OMG how could that NOT happen?"

And I agree, I wish we had left him there. I'm fine with the Afghanis beheading him or whatever they do.
 
2012-03-18 11:06:07 PM  

violentsalvation: And I agree, I wish we had left him there. I'm fine with the Afghanis beheading him or whatever they do.


Yeah, he's done enough that I would accept a death penalty, and I don't say that lightly.

And no, I don't think you're defending him. I'm just talking. But I suspect quite a lot of people are going to be trying to excuse this and say he shouldn't even be put on trial. More than a few of those people will want to give this guy a medal.

Ambivalence: The only fairness we get in life is what we give each other.


Hence the idea that he should be tried in Afghanistan. It's potential future leverage should this happen to us.
 
2012-03-18 11:06:38 PM  

violentsalvation: it isn't about making excuses. It is about understanding what the wars have done to young Americans.


It's exactly about making excuses. The US media doesn't care what the wars have done, either to the US soldiers who volunteered for war or the Afghans and Iraqis who didn't. If it did it wouldn't continue to unquestioningly regurgitate the rhetoric of the people who support these wars and are pushing now for a war in Iran. Instead the media only cares to further the storyline of US troops as heroes and protectors despite all evidence to the contrary.
 
2012-03-18 11:12:40 PM  
The first Rambo movie was 20 years ago.

It's not like we don't understand that this kinda thing could happen. It's that most people just don't give a fark. Jesus Christ wants us to kill brown people and the SUV needs cheap gas, so fark it. It's not my kid doing six tours in the desert.
 
2012-03-18 11:17:09 PM  

Ambivalence: War is hell, and the people who adocate for it should be forced to take point.


www.chinatalkingpoints.com
 
2012-03-18 11:17:35 PM  

7of7: Funny how when it's a US soldier who kills children in cold blood people are all about making excuses.


fark you. Seriously. You aren't helping AT ALL. You think you're being all "contrary" with your stupid farking opinion, but the reality is, you're just a little child trying to say something shocking.

No one is excusing this guy, we're trying to figure out WHY it happened. His life is over. We all know that.


But you go ahead. Try to get some attention from the adults by standing on your chair and screaming.
 
2012-03-18 11:17:37 PM  

GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.


you just described most of Apple's fan base.
 
2012-03-18 11:18:48 PM  
gotdamn, I love what_now ...
 
2012-03-18 11:18:52 PM  
hmm.. i wonder how afghanistan would be different if we hadn't invaded iraq.
 
2012-03-18 11:18:58 PM  
I wouldn't defend his actions, nor would I for a second argue with whatever punishment that may follow a proper trial, but I do have sympathy for any of our troops that have been kept in the service far longer than they should have, deployed longer than just about any troops in US history, and generally used as tools of diplomacy instead of defending the country against direct threats.
 
2012-03-18 11:20:01 PM  

HawgWild: gotdamn, I love what_now ...


right back atcha kitten.
 
2012-03-18 11:20:09 PM  

Weaver95: GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.

you just described most of Apple's fan base.


I almost thought I saw "Applebees" there and... nevermind.
 
2012-03-18 11:21:53 PM  
filmdirectors.co

life imitates art imitates life...
 
2012-03-18 11:22:09 PM  

what_now: No one is excusing this guy, we're trying to figure out WHY it happened. His life is over. We all know that..


I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.
 
2012-03-18 11:25:07 PM  

R.A.Danny: Weaver95: GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.

you just described most of Apple's fan base.

I almost thought I saw "Applebees" there and... nevermind.


every time some wannabe hipster jackhole uses the term 'mystical sky wizard' I automatically think about the Apple fanbois and their slavish devotion to anything with the Apple logo.

you'd think that a supposedly intelligent atheist dedicated to logic and reason could come up with ANYTHING better than 'dude hur hur sky wizzards! y ur dumb! hur hur'.

*sigh*

humans.
 
2012-03-18 11:26:40 PM  

Weaver95: I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.


No, not necessarily. The information about the brain injury and the three tours wasn't immediately known. The douchebags who raped a 14 year old girl in Iraq and set her whole family on fire didn't have any sort of mitigating factors, they were just evil. They would have been evil engineers, evil doctors, evil convenience store clerks, evil office drones. That sort of person does exist.
 
2012-03-18 11:29:41 PM  

what_now: Weaver95: I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.

No, not necessarily. The information about the brain injury and the three tours wasn't immediately known. The douchebags who raped a 14 year old girl in Iraq and set her whole family on fire didn't have any sort of mitigating factors, they were just evil. They would have been evil engineers, evil doctors, evil convenience store clerks, evil office drones. That sort of person does exist.


was this guy involuntinarily extended and sent back into combat for his third tour?
 
2012-03-18 11:34:46 PM  

what_now: Weaver95: I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.

No, not necessarily. The information about the brain injury and the three tours wasn't immediately known. The douchebags who raped a 14 year old girl in Iraq and set her whole family on fire didn't have any sort of mitigating factors, they were just evil. They would have been evil engineers, evil doctors, evil convenience store clerks, evil office drones. That sort of person does exist.


Don't forget evil petting zoos ...

encrypted-tbn1.google.com
 
2012-03-18 11:37:22 PM  

Weaver95: R.A.Danny: Weaver95: GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.

you just described most of Apple's fan base.

I almost thought I saw "Applebees" there and... nevermind.

every time some wannabe hipster jackhole uses the term 'mystical sky wizard' I automatically think about the Apple fanbois and their slavish devotion to anything with the Apple logo.

you'd think that a supposedly intelligent atheist dedicated to logic and reason could come up with ANYTHING better than 'dude hur hur sky wizzards! y ur dumb! hur hur'.

*sigh*

humans.


How you got all that out of "Applebees" and still thought you were on subject is beyond me.
 
2012-03-18 11:38:04 PM  
Maybe he's just a psychopath put in the "right" set of circumstances. It is true that we tend to think of our own as being motivated by mental illness rather than their nature, whereas if it were an Afghani doing such a thing it would be put down to their terroristy nature.

Btw, a dumb question, but why are there people serving multiple tours while other soldiers haven't been to Iraq and Afghanistan at all? Is it an issue of specialization and there being too few people with that skill set so they have to keep sending the same people? Is it just bureaucracy?
 
2012-03-18 11:40:56 PM  
I *would* at least like to know more about the nature of this "traumatic brain injury" I keep hearing about. When that happened, what appeared to be the effect, etc. It's at least possible his eggs got scrambled in a dangerous way, not that this should mean we give him a handshake and send him on his way. He'd still need to be largely kept away from people.
 
2012-03-18 11:41:39 PM  

R.A.Danny: How you got all that out of "Applebees" and still thought you were on subject is beyond me.


I don't think there's much to say about this incident. you keep putting soliders into afghanistan and then tell them not to talk about what they've seen or done, punish them for seeking professional psychiatric care, and telling 'em to suck it up and take it like a man then eventually some of those highly trained and well armed people are going to snap.

it's a testament to the discipline of our troops that there haven't been more incidents like this one.
 
2012-03-18 11:45:31 PM  

coco ebert: Btw, a dumb question, but why are there people serving multiple tours while other soldiers haven't been to Iraq and Afghanistan at all? Is it an issue of specialization and there being too few people with that skill set so they have to keep sending the same people? Is it just bureaucracy?


I gave up trying to figure out how the military gives out it's assignments and duty rotations. When I was in the navy, I volunteered to go to the boat right out of A school. listed carrier groups I wanted, sea duty orders as preference, all that that jazz. Know what I got? sea duty orders on a SHORE station in spain.

I ended up getting two service stars on a sea service ribbon and never once went to sea. Madness.
 
2012-03-18 11:50:21 PM  

GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.


How does this have ANYTHING to do with the article? Did you just feel the need to denigrate religious people at random?
 
2012-03-18 11:51:14 PM  

Weaver95: what_now: Weaver95: I think we can make a pretty good guess and how and why this happened.

No, not necessarily. The information about the brain injury and the three tours wasn't immediately known. The douchebags who raped a 14 year old girl in Iraq and set her whole family on fire didn't have any sort of mitigating factors, they were just evil. They would have been evil engineers, evil doctors, evil convenience store clerks, evil office drones. That sort of person does exist.

was this guy involuntinarily extended and sent back into combat for his third tour?


Fifth I think. I know he had four tours, but I thought that was completed four and this was five. It's one or the other. And he was turned down for a promotion, and we all know that makes you kill kids.
 
2012-03-18 11:52:20 PM  

downpaymentblues: GAT_00: Americans also think the world was created by a mystical sky wizard who while being omnipotent also needs daily affirmation of how awesome it is.

How does this have ANYTHING to do with the article? Did you just feel the need to denigrate religious people at random?


The headline said that Americans thought something stupid. I pointed out something that I think quite a few Americans believe is true that I think it quite a bit more stupid, suggesting that Americans thinking something stupid in regards to this isn't all that out of the ordinary - they quite commonly think stupid things.
 
2012-03-18 11:52:40 PM  

what_now: The first Rambo movie was 20 years ago.

It's not like we don't understand that this kinda thing could happen. It's that most people just don't give a fark. Jesus Christ wants us to kill brown people and the SUV needs cheap gas, so fark it. It's not my kid doing six tours in the desert.


try 30 years ago. First Blood (1982).

which would make the lack of understanding even less implausible.
 
2012-03-18 11:53:57 PM  

GAT_00: Has there been anything leaked that would get him excused for 16 murders?


Once again, who here said he should be excused? I just see people pointing out there are reasons that should be looked into so the military commands can avoid a repeat of this.

The man had a traumatic brain injury in 2010 and PTSD. He asked not to be deployed again. He already had multiple run ins with the law. It should have been pretty clear that he shouldn't be deployed again, but he was. People can ask serious questions about how this man was sent back out into a war zone with "excusing" him for what he did.

It seems you are more interested in playing politics with this particular issue than looking for solutions to help prevent it happening again.
 
2012-03-18 11:54:58 PM  

GAT_00: The headline said that Americans thought something stupid. I pointed out something that I think quite a few Americans believe is true that I think it quite a bit more stupid, suggesting that Americans thinking something stupid in regards to this isn't all that out of the ordinary - they quite commonly think stupid things.


So you were just stretching to denigrate religious people, completely unrelated to the story.

Thank you for clarifying.
 
2012-03-18 11:55:23 PM  
i25.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-18 11:55:37 PM  

GAT_00: violentsalvation: And I agree, I wish we had left him there. I'm fine with the Afghanis beheading him or whatever they do.

Yeah, he's done enough that I would accept a death penalty, and I don't say that lightly.

And no, I don't think you're defending him. I'm just talking. But I suspect quite a lot of people are going to be trying to excuse this and say he shouldn't even be put on trial. More than a few of those people will want to give this guy a medal.


And those people are disgusting idiots, really. I suspect many of them are trolling or sarcastic, but those who honestly feel that way are also the type of people who proclaim undying support for the troops, while many American troops may die over this.
 
2012-03-18 11:56:58 PM  

Weaver95: I don't think there's much to say about this incident. you keep putting soldiers into Afghanistan and then tell them not to talk about what they've seen or done, punish them for seeking professional psychiatric care, and telling 'em to suck it up and take it like a man then eventually some of those highly trained and well armed people are going to snap.

it's a testament to the discipline of our troops that there haven't been more incidents like this one.



Thank you for stating my point (more eloquently than I could).
 
2012-03-18 11:59:30 PM  

downpaymentblues: Once again, who here said he should be excused?


Don't worry, someone will.

And the cause and result of the previous injury should be noted. That has excused crimes in the past, though I doubt one of this scale. As such, it is a relevant point and should be addressed. And PTSD doesn't excuse this. Some absurd percentage of our Armed Forces come back suffering one form of PTSD or another. None of them have done this.

And while I have snarked, I have said nothing I consider political. Go I would also suggest you either put your big girl panties on, or if you're already wearing them, then take them off and pull the stick out of your ass.
 
2012-03-19 12:00:05 AM  

GAT_00: But I suspect quite a lot of people are going to be trying to excuse this and say he shouldn't even be put on trial


Irrational people who post on FoxNation or FreeRepublic. I suspect you don't really want to base your argument on the fringe. At least I hope you don't.
 
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