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(USA Today)   This is not a repeat from 1945   (usatoday.com) divider line 314
    More: News, Demjanjuk, nazi death camps, Nazis, German police, Red Army, U.S. citizenship, Kilian Steger  
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37976 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2012 at 8:15 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-17 01:16:14 PM

vygramul: chuckufarlie: 9beers: chuckufarlie: You are wrong on SOOO many levels. First, the guards were not ordinary soldiers, they were all either SS or locals recruited by the SS.

Bullshiat they were. Even is some were hand selected by the SS, they weren't told of the true purpose of the camps.

Soldiers of the HEER were not used as death camp guards, never, not once. The local people that were hand selected knew damned well what they were getting into

Not at first, at least. I once asked my grandmother when she first knew of the Holocaust, given she was in the middle of it all, and she said it was pretty early on in the DP camps that men who were posted to guard duty would come back on leave and tell stories about it, but that few people believed them.


Most soldiers serving on the Eastern Front were aware of what was going on. The fact that a civilian dis not know is something else. Lots of civilians knew what was going on and chose to pretend that it was not happening.
 
2012-03-17 01:22:43 PM

DavidVincent: liam76: DavidVincent: liam76: DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.

I am surprised it took this long to try and pin the blame on jews.

I wonder why you didn't bring up Vyacheslav Molotov the guy who oversaw the Stalin regime's collectivisation of agriculture, signed the Law of Spikelets and personally led the Extraordinary Commission for Grain Delivery in Ukraine, which seized a reported 4.2 million tonnes of grain.


Liam, last time we talk you said you were an athiest. So you are not ethnically jewish?

No. I am ethnically Irish (for the most part) the rest is western eurpoean mutt (since you are so interested in my familes religion, they were all catholic or protestant).

And my ethnicity has nothing to do with the fact that Molotov had a bigger role in Holodomor. Tell me honestly, had you never heard of him before? Does your info on it come from sources who only "blame the jews" or did you personally chose to assignt he blame to a jew?

Odd that you think they only person who would call out your BS is a jew.

Thanks for your answer. I am familiar with Molotov. I made my point earlier. In the early 20 century Jews were synonymous with Communism. Does that excuse anything? No.


Your point earlier, "The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew" is a lie.

It was run by molotov, not a jew. If you are familiar with molotov, why would you lie to pin it on a jew.

I also don't agree that they were synonymous just because they were lumped together as bad guys by Nazi's.


And it is time for me to run, my ethnicity demands an obscene amount of drinking starts.
 
2012-03-17 01:25:29 PM

MessinAr: I'm all for hunting down and making people pay for their crimes, but it sounds like the worst they can prove on this guy is that he manned a post and walked a line. He made a bad choice - he joined the wrong side.

Bear in mind, though, he may have not had any particular loyalties to the Red Army that put him there in the first place.

If I'm living on a farm with my family (totally not saying this is what happened - I don't know how he was recruited) and a truck pulls up into town, grabs me and any other men aged 15+, says "Congrats, you're in the army", trains me for a month, then tosses me up against likely the most advanced, well trained, best equipped, and most experienced military force to ever walk the earth with absolute minimal equipment and support well... let's just say I won't be writing a thank you note to Dear Leader Stalin when all is said and done.

And if captured, treated fairly, and given an opportunity to become a part of said military force I may be inclined to say, "Sure - I'll join up. Maybe I can even convince some of my fellow countrymen how much better off they would be if they did the same."

I'm sure it wasn't hard at all to brainwash MANY a Red Army soldier that had been completely crapped on by their government. Just look at what N Korea has had to do to ensure its populace doesn't run away... and they're not even tossing their people into a total meatgrinder like the Soviets did.


Finally a voice of reason. But the Jews are so full of venom, they'll take anyone down. The other half of the Holocaust victims weren't even Jews, you don't see their families biatching 70 years later. Hell, they're all but forgotten. They biatch so god damned much, we have a farking Holocaust museum in Washington, an event that didn't even take place here, yet we don't even have a slavery museum for something that was a 400 year nightmare and took place in our own backyard. shiat happens, get over it.
 
2012-03-17 01:26:46 PM

hbk72777: yet we don't even have a slavery museum for something that was a 400 year nightmare and took place in our own backyard.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Slavery_Museum
 
2012-03-17 01:29:38 PM

MooseUpNorth: Notabunny: chuckufarlie: Notabunny: chuckufarlie: You really don't get it, do you???? LOOK at the post, you sent it to the wrong person.

You really don't get it, do you???? LOOK at the past, I sent it to you because you sided with danzak's position.

No, I did not. You started this because I asked you if you started drinking so early, CORRECT?

Yes, you did. Look at the post.

I wasn't going to intercede, because this is farking hilarious. I mean, really, really funny, but someone's got to put you out of your misery here. [wipes tears of laughter], but he's right. You've got the wrong guy. _I_ brought it up. Not him. He's been arguing for vengeance-over-justice, like you (more or less), the entire time.


I've been having a good time myself over this. I do wonder what his problem is.
 
2012-03-17 01:29:48 PM
Demanjuk's fate was quite different than that of the handful of Jews that were prosecuted by the US for being Nazi camp overseers (Kapos) not that long ago. In the four or so cases that were brought, they were stripped of their citizenship but not deported, in recognition of the stressful situation under which they chose to become Kapos and their deteriorating health. This despite the fact that witnesses testified to actual incidents of brutality. Apparently Demanjuk's being a captured Soviet conscript in a Nazi POW camp (60% death rate) is not considered an ameliorating factor when weighing his choice to be a camp guard. The Demanjuk case is a shameful chapter in American history.
 
2012-03-17 01:30:52 PM
What great news to hear right after the end of Shabbat.
 
2012-03-17 01:31:58 PM

vygramul: There is a tendency for people to equate being found not guilty with innocence. That is certainly frequently true. But frequently, it is not.


Yup.

I was a member of the jury of a molestation trial once. I won't be specific (because Canadian law doesn't allow me to discuss what happened in the deliberations.) I can say that, were you to look at the transcript of the trial, you would see that the evidence presented was 1) the accusation, and 2) possible opportunity. The only actual witness (other than the alleged victim and the accused), wasn't permitted to testify (after three days of legal argument over settled compensation.) Suspicious as hell. But what was presented to me did not satisfy beyond reasonable doubt.

I was the foreman, and I had to deliver the verdict. Not my favorite day.

And that's the problem I'm having with the prosecution of this guy. I don't like prosecutors getting "creative" when they have nothing concrete. 20+ thousand counts of accessory to murder, after misidentifying which camp he guarded? 70+ years after the fact? While not prosecuting most of the other guards?

No, that's not justice. That's some asshole who made an ass of himself with public incompetence looking for some sweet, sweet payback.
 
2012-03-17 01:33:21 PM

liam76: DavidVincent: liam76: DavidVincent: liam76: DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.

I am surprised it took this long to try and pin the blame on jews.

I wonder why you didn't bring up Vyacheslav Molotov the guy who oversaw the Stalin regime's collectivisation of agriculture, signed the Law of Spikelets and personally led the Extraordinary Commission for Grain Delivery in Ukraine, which seized a reported 4.2 million tonnes of grain.


Liam, last time we talk you said you were an athiest. So you are not ethnically jewish?

No. I am ethnically Irish (for the most part) the rest is western eurpoean mutt (since you are so interested in my familes religion, they were all catholic or protestant).

And my ethnicity has nothing to do with the fact that Molotov had a bigger role in Holodomor. Tell me honestly, had you never heard of him before? Does your info on it come from sources who only "blame the jews" or did you personally chose to assignt he blame to a jew?

Odd that you think they only person who would call out your BS is a jew.

Thanks for your answer. I am familiar with Molotov. I made my point earlier. In the early 20 century Jews were synonymous with Communism. Does that excuse anything? No.

Your point earlier, "The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew" is a lie.

It was run by molotov, not a jew. If you are familiar with molotov, why would you lie to pin it on a jew.

I also don't agree that they were synonymous just because they were lumped together as bad guys by Nazi's.


And it is time for me to run, my ethnicity demands an obscene amount of drinking starts.



See you next time. Nice to see you have a sense of humor.
I hope even those that hate me can get a chuckle from me once in awhile.
I'm out too.
 
2012-03-17 01:36:47 PM

vygramul: chuckufarlie: Kar98: chuckufarlie: The trick is to not walk in there in the first place. And the idea that he could not have refused is just plain ignorance. He was not forced into becoming a guard.

You stupid, stupid farktard. He was conscripted into the Soviet army. He was forced to fight against the Germans. The Germans captured him. And then he, 19 years old, had to make to choice of dying in a camp, or guarding one. Israel had him in court, sentenced him to death, and then said meh, sorry about that, and let him go. Then the Germans got hold of him again, and sentenced him to jail for things he was in the vicinity of, for being alive in the mere vicinity of crimes committed by Germans without ever establishing anything this guy may or may not have done.
And what you've just posted is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Okay, jackass, PROVE that he was in the Soviet Army. Oh yea, you can't. You opt to believe his lie, I do not.

We do KNOW that he was a guard at a death camp. We KNOW what happened in death camps and we know that the guards participated in what happened.

Mr Demjanjuk joined the Red Army after the outbreak of World War II, and fought until he was captured by German troops in eastern Crimea in 1942. (new window)


An article in the BBC is hardly proof that he was telling the truth.
 
2012-03-17 01:49:28 PM

vygramul: liam76: olddinosaur: Israel is not the sort of place to give mercy to an ex--Nazi, but when even they could not be convinced of his guilt, that was enough for me.

Israel wasn't convinced he was not "Ibvan the terrible" they thought there was ample evidence he was a prison guard, but that wasn't what they extrdiated him for and they thought it wasn't worth doing it again to get him for it.

There is a tendency for people to equate being found not guilty with innocence. That is certainly frequently true. But frequently, it is not.


but the Israelis have never been known to let things like international law, their own procedural safeguards, or even sufficiency of evidence get in the way of exacting vengeance on those that have committed crimes on jews or who may be a threat to the jewish people.
if even the jewish people said, *there isn't enough here, let him go*, that weighs in favor of an actual lack of culpability, not just a more technical lack of guilt, in my mind at least.
and if it is true that the germans haven't been prosecuting the thousands of ordinary german guards at the camps over the many decades since ww2, you have to wonder why the slav and pow soviet soldier (over 2.5 million of this class of people were killed in nazi concentration camps let's not forget) was singled out for punishment.
 
2012-03-17 01:50:48 PM

Notabunny: Notabunny:

I guess it was too much to expect an apology or an admission that you are an idiot?

 
2012-03-17 01:56:26 PM

relcec: vygramul: liam76: olddinosaur: Israel is not the sort of place to give mercy to an ex--Nazi, but when even they could not be convinced of his guilt, that was enough for me.

Israel wasn't convinced he was not "Ibvan the terrible" they thought there was ample evidence he was a prison guard, but that wasn't what they extrdiated him for and they thought it wasn't worth doing it again to get him for it.

There is a tendency for people to equate being found not guilty with innocence. That is certainly frequently true. But frequently, it is not.

but the Israelis have never been known to let things like international law, their own procedural safeguards, or even sufficiency of evidence get in the way of exacting vengeance on those that have committed crimes on jews or who may be a threat to the jewish people.
if even the jewish people said, *there isn't enough here, let him go*, that weighs in favor of an actual lack of culpability, not just a more technical lack of guilt, in my mind at least.
and if it is true that the germans haven't been prosecuting the thousands of ordinary german guards at the camps over the many decades since ww2, you have to wonder why the slav and pow soviet soldier (over 2.5 million of this class of people were killed in nazi concentration camps let's not forget) was singled out for punishment.


This is a good point, but if we were to divorce the court from the country, one would suggest that the right thing for a court and government to do after finding they had wrongly convicted of him of being a particular guard would be to decide the state had lost the necessary credibility to turn around and prosecute on another. That would smack of, "we'll prosecute him for being each prison guard until one sticks," and even if they believed it, they might feel it serves overall justice by maintaining the justice system's credibility to let it go.

Plugging it back into the country, you find there are competing interests: 1) they really want to get every Nazi, maybe to the extreme of overlooking exculpatory facts; 2) they start off facing a credibility deficit for exactly that reason, increasing the need for level-headedness.

It's certainly a sticky situation, and I feel bad for the man's family. I have no reason to think my own grandfather did anything wrong, but despite having loved him dearly, I would be a fool to let that love blind me to the possibility that maybe he did do something wrong. It seems unlikely to me, but I'll never know.
 
2012-03-17 02:05:31 PM
the arguments here are just getting stupid. yes, I'm sure in Ukraine during WW2, he had a choice NOT to fight with the Red Army, instead sunning himself on the shores of the Dneiper. It was also his choice to become a guard once he got captured, instead of going back to sunning himself on those same Dnieper shores. He just made all these BAD choices along the way.

And then, comments like "What great news to hear right after the end of Shabbat", without a trace of irony of posting such vile in a Holocaust thread. Idiocy.
Some of you will sleep better thinking that this 91 year old menace is dead, not behind another set of bars where he's spent the last 30 years or so. To you, sweet dreams! Next time someone decides to take a shortcut to justice, hope it's not you they're after.
 
2012-03-17 02:11:36 PM
Higher level German officers and officials have been acquitted and left alone many years ago, yet this is the person many want to make their bogeyman? Call it for what it is, prostituting the Holocaust for petty vengeance.
 
2012-03-17 02:21:20 PM

vygramul: Sorry, but you've been misled. Zero evidence supporting that claim. It's easy to believe, and until I studied it at UVA I was under that impression as well. But there really is no documentation to support that assertion.


So what you're saying is that because the Germans didn't document cases of soldiers being killed for not taking part in prisoner abuse and killings, it didn't happen? Nice logic buddy. I guess they should have kept better records on the 6 million or so Jews that they were secretly murdering too, right?

Over 15,000 thousand German soldiers were executed during WWII for "desertion". At least some of those were for refusing orders to kill prisoners.
 
2012-03-17 02:30:48 PM

Notabunny: Bomb Head Mohammed: 2. Beyond that, NO credible witnesses have come forth to accuse him specifically of any specific acts that warrant the extraordinary level of prosecution that he has been subject to. ZERO.

I get that you're a troll white knighting for a Nazi. It's too early to say you're a racist bigot Nazi troll, but I don't understand why you're so eager to cast yourself in that light. As you know, the key fact you're intentionally leaving out, the key fact on which the prosecution based its case, is that Sobibor was a death camp. Sobibor wasn't a prison, a concentration camp, or a labor camp. It was a death camp. The life expectancy of people arriving at Sobibor was around 4 hours. For 200,000 to 250,000 people murdered at Sobibor, there were very few guards and workers. There were so few, that all of them were directly involved in the murders, or directly assisted in the murders. All of them, even the tower guards, received special training in Trawniki on the "pacification" of Jews. But you know all that, don't you.


Stop getting all kikey up in here, you're ruining good discussion.
 
2012-03-17 02:49:43 PM

vygramul: chuckufarlie: Kar98: chuckufarlie: Okay, jackass, PROVE that he was in the Soviet Army.

I'll take his supposed victims' and enemies' words for it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/DemjanjukKaufM. h tml

There is nothing there that offers any PROOF to his statement.

OK, but then one has to ask why your null hypothesis is that a fighting-age male in the Soviet Union was able to escape being in the Red Army. If one had to bet on what an 18 or 19 year-old Ukrainian was doing once the Germans invaded, it's a pretty safe bet that they were in the army.


Do you really need an explanation for that? I would think that anybody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the Great Patriotic War would know the answer but let me explain.

1. The USSR was NOT on a war footing prior to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa.

2. The German army made rapid progress through the Ukraine in the opening weeks of the war and many a Ukrainian of military age was beyond the grasp of the USSR military very quickly. In case you still don't get it, they were living in areas that were already occupied by the Germans.

seriously, if you have to ask that question, you have no business discussing any of this.
 
2012-03-17 02:53:11 PM

9beers: vygramul: Sorry, but you've been misled. Zero evidence supporting that claim. It's easy to believe, and until I studied it at UVA I was under that impression as well. But there really is no documentation to support that assertion.

So what you're saying is that because the Germans didn't document cases of soldiers being killed for not taking part in prisoner abuse and killings, it didn't happen? Nice logic buddy. I guess they should have kept better records on the 6 million or so Jews that they were secretly murdering too, right?

Over 15,000 thousand German soldiers were executed during WWII for "desertion". At least some of those were for refusing orders to kill prisoners.


Um, yeah, because there was zero documentation of Germans killing Jews? Oh, wait - there are TONS of documents about killing Jews! So maybe, just maybe, you're going with a "guilty of executing people for not killing Jews" without first having proof of said allegation?

And the Soviets executed over 150,000 for desertion. Was it because they, too, refused to kill Jews? Hmmm...
 
2012-03-17 02:54:17 PM

bowtiesheep: He was a coward his whole life.


This likely sums everything up. I can feel upset about a small travesty of justice - he died of old age before he could be imprisoned for good, after all - while feeling at the same time that he got his just rewards for his guard service.

There are good points being made on both sides, but the facts come down to it being a political conviction more than evidential. He was convicted on purely circumstantial evidence, which would not be enough here - good enough for the German court system, which is very different from the US or Israeli courts, or even the Nuremberg trials that required harder evidence. The political part comes from the desire to save face after the media-hyped Treblinka prosecution flopped, made them look like buffoons and called 40 years of eyewitness testimony in thousands of convictions into question, a matter that had to be swept under the rug as quickly as possible. That said, he very likely escaped justice for numerous sins, since we have no idea what "justice" actually would be with the long-missing documentation, but he did have at least some number of deaths on his hands.
 
2012-03-17 02:58:16 PM

beer4breakfast: Higher level German officers and officials have been acquitted and left alone many years ago, yet this is the person many want to make their bogeyman? Call it for what it is, prostituting the Holocaust for petty vengeance.


higher level Germans officers were EXECUTED.
 
2012-03-17 03:01:13 PM

chuckufarlie: vygramul: chuckufarlie: Kar98: chuckufarlie: Okay, jackass, PROVE that he was in the Soviet Army.

I'll take his supposed victims' and enemies' words for it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/DemjanjukKaufM. h tml

There is nothing there that offers any PROOF to his statement.

OK, but then one has to ask why your null hypothesis is that a fighting-age male in the Soviet Union was able to escape being in the Red Army. If one had to bet on what an 18 or 19 year-old Ukrainian was doing once the Germans invaded, it's a pretty safe bet that they were in the army.

Do you really need an explanation for that? I would think that anybody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the Great Patriotic War would know the answer but let me explain.

1. The USSR was NOT on a war footing prior to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa.

2. The German army made rapid progress through the Ukraine in the opening weeks of the war and many a Ukrainian of military age was beyond the grasp of the USSR military very quickly. In case you still don't get it, they were living in areas that were already occupied by the Germans.

seriously, if you have to ask that question, you have no business discussing any of this.


You're making assumptions, providing how he might not have been in the Army. There were 23 million TOTAL Ukrainians, men, women, and children, in 1939. 7 million served in the Red Army during the course of the war. Even if the population DOUBLED during WWII, that's the vast majority of fighting age and able-bodied Ukrainian men.

You need to do a little less assumption and a little more research, especially before resorting to ad hominems and special pleading.
 
2012-03-17 03:02:15 PM

vygramul: 9beers: vygramul: Sorry, but you've been misled. Zero evidence supporting that claim. It's easy to believe, and until I studied it at UVA I was under that impression as well. But there really is no documentation to support that assertion.

So what you're saying is that because the Germans didn't document cases of soldiers being killed for not taking part in prisoner abuse and killings, it didn't happen? Nice logic buddy. I guess they should have kept better records on the 6 million or so Jews that they were secretly murdering too, right?

Over 15,000 thousand German soldiers were executed during WWII for "desertion". At least some of those were for refusing orders to kill prisoners.

Um, yeah, because there was zero documentation of Germans killing Jews? Oh, wait - there are TONS of documents about killing Jews! So maybe, just maybe, you're going with a "guilty of executing people for not killing Jews" without first having proof of said allegation?

And the Soviets executed over 150,000 for desertion. Was it because they, too, refused to kill Jews? Hmmm...



Indeed, and let's not forget this:

Rape during the occupation of Germany (new window)

"A wave of rapes and sexual violence occurred in Central Europe in 1944-45, as the Western Allies and the Red Army fought their way into the Third Reich.[1] The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers range from the tens of thousands to 2 million.[2][3][4][5][6] In many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[7] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[4] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[8] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[9][10] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[11]"


These farkers were our "allies" in fighting the evil Nazis, and what they did in Poland and elsewhere wasn't much better. Why no witch hunt here?

Funny how certain parts of history get more attention than others.
 
2012-03-17 03:03:38 PM

Tatsuma: What great news to hear right after the end of Shabbat.


Are you being serious or sarcastic?

I mean I could see it go either way...
 
2012-03-17 03:07:53 PM

vygramul: Um, yeah, because there was zero documentation of Germans killing Jews? Oh, wait - there are TONS of documents about killing Jews!


You're missing the point, moron. Do you really think the Germans would shoot a soldier for refusing to kill prisoners and label it as such in the official record? You're a goddamn fool if you think that's true.
 
2012-03-17 03:11:54 PM

TheBigJerk: Tatsuma: What great news to hear right after the end of Shabbat.

Are you being serious or sarcastic?

I mean I could see it go either way...



i575.photobucket.com

Are you kidding?


/Vindictive SOB's are vindictive
 
2012-03-17 03:13:09 PM

Amos Quito: vygramul: 9beers: vygramul: Sorry, but you've been misled. Zero evidence supporting that claim. It's easy to believe, and until I studied it at UVA I was under that impression as well. But there really is no documentation to support that assertion.

So what you're saying is that because the Germans didn't document cases of soldiers being killed for not taking part in prisoner abuse and killings, it didn't happen? Nice logic buddy. I guess they should have kept better records on the 6 million or so Jews that they were secretly murdering too, right?

Over 15,000 thousand German soldiers were executed during WWII for "desertion". At least some of those were for refusing orders to kill prisoners.

Um, yeah, because there was zero documentation of Germans killing Jews? Oh, wait - there are TONS of documents about killing Jews! So maybe, just maybe, you're going with a "guilty of executing people for not killing Jews" without first having proof of said allegation?

And the Soviets executed over 150,000 for desertion. Was it because they, too, refused to kill Jews? Hmmm...


Indeed, and let's not forget this:

Rape during the occupation of Germany (new window)

"A wave of rapes and sexual violence occurred in Central Europe in 1944-45, as the Western Allies and the Red Army fought their way into the Third Reich.[1] The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers range from the tens of thousands to 2 million.[2][3][4][5][6] In many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[7] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[4] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[8] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[9][10] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon ...


I hope that you are not serious. How were we supposed to investigate these crimes committed by Russian soldiers? What right did we have to prosecute these Russian soldiers? We had no jurisdiction over them.
 
2012-03-17 03:22:38 PM

qualtrough: Demanjuk's fate was quite different than that of the handful of Jews that were prosecuted by the US for being Nazi camp overseers (Kapos) not that long ago. In the four or so cases that were brought, they were stripped of their citizenship but not deported, in recognition of the stressful situation under which they chose to become Kapos and their deteriorating health. This despite the fact that witnesses testified to actual incidents of brutality. Apparently Demanjuk's being a captured Soviet conscript in a Nazi POW camp (60% death rate) is not considered an ameliorating factor when weighing his choice to be a camp guard. The Demanjuk case is a shameful chapter in American history.


He received the exact same punishment: In 2004, after five years of being tried for serving as a guard, he was stripped of his US citizenship but allowed to stay.

If he had been jailed in the US, it would have been a shameful chapter in American history. He was not; he was prosecuted in Germany in absense, and only deported based on his conviction there, and then given another trial once he arrived so that he could present a defence. Because of our extradition treaties and his lack of citizenship, our choices were limited. If Germany had decided to prosecute the other stripped Kapos, they too would have been deported, but that never happened for some reason.
 
2012-03-17 03:23:35 PM

chuckufarlie: I hope that you are not serious. How were we supposed to investigate these crimes committed by Russian soldiers? What right did we have to prosecute these Russian soldiers? We had no jurisdiction over them.



Point is that "we" largely just didn't give a shiat, did we?
 
2012-03-17 03:25:35 PM

vygramul: chuckufarlie: vygramul: chuckufarlie: Kar98: chuckufarlie: Okay, jackass, PROVE that he was in the Soviet Army.

I'll take his supposed victims' and enemies' words for it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/DemjanjukKaufM. h tml

There is nothing there that offers any PROOF to his statement.

OK, but then one has to ask why your null hypothesis is that a fighting-age male in the Soviet Union was able to escape being in the Red Army. If one had to bet on what an 18 or 19 year-old Ukrainian was doing once the Germans invaded, it's a pretty safe bet that they were in the army.

Do you really need an explanation for that? I would think that anybody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the Great Patriotic War would know the answer but let me explain.

1. The USSR was NOT on a war footing prior to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa.

2. The German army made rapid progress through the Ukraine in the opening weeks of the war and many a Ukrainian of military age was beyond the grasp of the USSR military very quickly. In case you still don't get it, they were living in areas that were already occupied by the Germans.

seriously, if you have to ask that question, you have no business discussing any of this.

You're making assumptions, providing how he might not have been in the Army. There were 23 million TOTAL Ukrainians, men, women, and children, in 1939. 7 million served in the Red Army during the course of the war. Even if the population DOUBLED during WWII, that's the vast majority of fighting age and able-bodied Ukrainian men.

You need to do a little less assumption and a little more research, especially before resorting to ad hominems and special pleading.


You asked me "if one were to bet" and now you want to get all academic?? I explained to you how it was possible for a man of military age to not be in the Soviet military. It is a perfectly sound theory. Can I prove this is what happened to the poor lost soul you are defending? No, but you cannot prove that it did not. You asked for a possible explanation and you have it. Stop moving the goal posts.

FYI - women ALSO fought in the Soviet Army during the great Patriotic War. That shoots holes in your idea that all men had to have served to meet that number
 
2012-03-17 03:28:10 PM

vygramul: 9beers: Before you talk about a soldiers right to disobey unlawful order or a duty to report abuse, lets remember that we're talking about Germany in WWII and not the modern military. If a guard, or anybody else, would have refused to follow orders, they would have been shot on site or if they were lucky, sent to a labor camp where they most likely would have been abused and killed.

Turns out this is a myth. There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians. There are examples of soldiers who refused and did not face retaliation and no examples of soldiers who refused and were punished.

If it makes you feel better, however, soldiers involved in shooting helpless people were frequently given large amounts of alcohol to better "deal" with the aftermath. So they usually weren't zealously and gleefully killing people most of the time.


Thing is that doesn't matter that much. Stanley Milgram proved that proved that pretty soundly. I believe the soldiers who somehow got slotted for "genocide duty" were like any other military assignment, their COs probably already filtered against most "moral objector" types and if one managed to slip through they would face the "retribution" of peeling potatoes and getting reassigned. They'd also be looked down on by the group for pussing out and all the other subtle ways a military machine can break down cultural and instinctive resistances and turn a mild-mannered average person into an efficient killing machine capable of doing what (supposedly) needs to be done.

No offense intended to military farkers out there, sometimes we really NEED killing machines and your willingness to become one is an honorable sacrifice. It is just that to pretend the nazis were somehow all that different from regular human beings is both dishonest and destructive. We all have the potential for evil, the question is what we do with that potential.

So anyway, the point is that a death camp guard was still under duress, and it is a kind of duress that a majority of humans will buckle under.
 
2012-03-17 03:36:43 PM

9beers: vygramul: Um, yeah, because there was zero documentation of Germans killing Jews? Oh, wait - there are TONS of documents about killing Jews!

You're missing the point, moron. Do you really think the Germans would shoot a soldier for refusing to kill prisoners and label it as such in the official record? You're a goddamn fool if you think that's true.


So, zero evidence it is. Despite there being TONS of documents and eye-witness testimony showing soldiers were allowed to recuse themselves. A disincentive only works if people understand that the punishment is likely and severe. Where's the deterrence if you kill people for disobeying orders, but then tell soldiers you don't?

If you prefer a "guilty until proven innocent" world, by all means, go against the evidence and go with what your gut tells you. I just hope you don't end up on a jury.
 
2012-03-17 03:40:52 PM

TheBigJerk: vygramul: 9beers: Before you talk about a soldiers right to disobey unlawful order or a duty to report abuse, lets remember that we're talking about Germany in WWII and not the modern military. If a guard, or anybody else, would have refused to follow orders, they would have been shot on site or if they were lucky, sent to a labor camp where they most likely would have been abused and killed.

Turns out this is a myth. There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians. There are examples of soldiers who refused and did not face retaliation and no examples of soldiers who refused and were punished.

If it makes you feel better, however, soldiers involved in shooting helpless people were frequently given large amounts of alcohol to better "deal" with the aftermath. So they usually weren't zealously and gleefully killing people most of the time.

Thing is that doesn't matter that much. Stanley Milgram proved that proved that pretty soundly. I believe the soldiers who somehow got slotted for "genocide duty" were like any other military assignment, their COs probably already filtered against most "moral objector" types and if one managed to slip through they would face the "retribution" of peeling potatoes and getting reassigned. They'd also be looked down on by the group for pussing out and all the other subtle ways a military machine can break down cultural and instinctive resistances and turn a mild-mannered average person into an efficient killing machine capable of doing what (supposedly) needs to be done.

No offense intended to military farkers out there, sometimes we really NEED killing machines and your willingness to become one is an honorable sacrifice. It is just that to pretend the nazis were somehow all that different from regular human beings is both dishonest and destructive. We all have the potential for evil, the question is what we do with that potential.

So anyway, the point is ...


Yes, but the documentation shows that they did supply alcohol. This is quite well documented, as opposed to 9beers' fantasies.

The Milgram experiment showed people would do it, not that they were psychologically ok with it. People press the zap button did it despite objecting, meaning they were not comfortable, meaning that their conscience might bother them after the fact.
 
2012-03-17 03:46:58 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I hope that you are not serious. How were we supposed to investigate these crimes committed by Russian soldiers? What right did we have to prosecute these Russian soldiers? We had no jurisdiction over them.


Point is that "we" largely just didn't give a shiat, did we?


That is not the point and you cannot prove that it was.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
 
2012-03-17 03:52:56 PM

TheBigJerk: vygramul: 9beers: Before you talk about a soldiers right to disobey unlawful order or a duty to report abuse, lets remember that we're talking about Germany in WWII and not the modern military. If a guard, or anybody else, would have refused to follow orders, they would have been shot on site or if they were lucky, sent to a labor camp where they most likely would have been abused and killed.

Turns out this is a myth. There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians. There are examples of soldiers who refused and did not face retaliation and no examples of soldiers who refused and were punished.

If it makes you feel better, however, soldiers involved in shooting helpless people were frequently given large amounts of alcohol to better "deal" with the aftermath. So they usually weren't zealously and gleefully killing people most of the time.

Thing is that doesn't matter that much. Stanley Milgram proved that proved that pretty soundly. I believe the soldiers who somehow got slotted for "genocide duty" were like any other military assignment, their COs probably already filtered against most "moral objector" types and if one managed to slip through they would face the "retribution" of peeling potatoes and getting reassigned. They'd also be looked down on by the group for pussing out and all the other subtle ways a military machine can break down cultural and instinctive resistances and turn a mild-mannered average person into an efficient killing machine capable of doing what (supposedly) needs to be done.

No offense intended to military farkers out there, sometimes we really NEED killing machines and your willingness to become one is an honorable sacrifice. It is just that to pretend the nazis were somehow all that different from regular human beings is both dishonest and destructive. We all have the potential for evil, the question is what we do with that potential.

So anyway, the point is ...


The soldiers who worked in the camps were not from the Army, they were all SS.
 
2012-03-17 03:58:03 PM

vygramul: TONS of documents and eye-witness testimony showing soldiers were allowed to recuse themselves.


Sir, I don't like what's taking place at this camp.
I understand your concerns, private. I'll have your orders tomorrow reassigning you to the front lines.
On second thought sir, I'll go back to my guard tower and read a book.
Good choice, private.


If you think everybody assigned to work at the camps was a willing participant in what was going on, you're ignorant on the way the world works, especially in WWII Germany.
 
2012-03-17 03:59:46 PM

chuckufarlie: You asked me "if one were to bet" and now you want to get all academic?? I explained to you how it was possible for a man of military age to not be in the Soviet military. It is a perfectly sound theory. Can I prove this is what happened to the poor lost soul you are defending? No, but you cannot prove that it did not. You asked for a possible explanation and you have it. Stop moving the goal posts.

FYI - women ALSO fought in the Soviet Army during the great Patriotic War. That shoots holes in your idea that all men had to have served to meet that number


Now you're lying. I didn't ask for an alternative possibility. In fact, the very statement "if one were to bet" is a statement of likelihood, not certainty, and by definition means it is possible he wasn't. But the odds are against it, yet you say with certainty that he was NOT in the Red Army. You even called it a lie.

Here it is:

chuckufarlie: Okay, jackass, PROVE that he was in the Soviet Army. Oh yea, you can't. You opt to believe his lie, I do not.


Now you say the possibility he wasn't is just a valid theory. You don't provide evidence, you just OPT not to believe "his lie". So without any evidence, you choose to judge it a lie, despite the fact that odds do not favor it to be a lie.

Do you plan on "shooting the moon" with logical fallacies while back-peddling, or can I make up some bingo cards for farkers to play along?
 
2012-03-17 04:06:33 PM

vygramul: chuckufarlie: You asked me "if one were to bet" and now you want to get all academic?? I explained to you how it was possible for a man of military age to not be in the Soviet military. It is a perfectly sound theory. Can I prove this is what happened to the poor lost soul you are defending? No, but you cannot prove that it did not. You asked for a possible explanation and you have it. Stop moving the goal posts.

FYI - women ALSO fought in the Soviet Army during the great Patriotic War. That shoots holes in your idea that all men had to have served to meet that number

Now you're lying. I didn't ask for an alternative possibility. In fact, the very statement "if one were to bet" is a statement of likelihood, not certainty, and by definition means it is possible he wasn't. But the odds are against it, yet you say with certainty that he was NOT in the Red Army. You even called it a lie.

Here it is:

chuckufarlie: Okay, jackass, PROVE that he was in the Soviet Army. Oh yea, you can't. You opt to believe his lie, I do not.

Now you say the possibility he wasn't is just a valid theory. You don't provide evidence, you just OPT not to believe "his lie". So without any evidence, you choose to judge it a lie, despite the fact that odds do not favor it to be a lie.

Do you plan on "shooting the moon" with logical fallacies while back-peddling, or can I make up some bingo cards for farkers to play along?


gee, I don't know, the man DID lie about somethings in his life - he said that he was not a guard when he obviously was because they found his papers from the camp. He lied when he entered the USA. Is it a stretch to believe that he lied about something else?

I said a long time ago that I do not have proof that he lied, but he does seem to have a tendency to do so when it suits his case.

You cannot prove that he was in the Army, if you want to believe a confirmed liar, go ahead.
 
2012-03-17 04:09:46 PM

vygramul: No offense intended to military farkers out there, sometimes we really NEED killing machines and your willingness to become one is an honorable sacrifice. It is just that to pretend the nazis were somehow all that different from regular human beings is both dishonest and destructive. We all have the potential for evil, the question is what we do with that potential.

So anyway, the point is ...

Yes, but the documentation shows that they did supply alcohol. This is quite well documented, as opposed to 9beers' fantasies.

The Milgram experiment showed people would do it, not that they were psychologically ok with it. People press the zap button did it despite objecting, meaning they were not comfortable, meaning that their conscience might bother them after the fact.


it might have shown more than that.
if this exertion of fairly minor psychological pressure can get the vast majority of society to deliver a lethal shock to an innocent man, it would seem like very few among us have the wherewithal to withstand the physiological pressure that would come with war and life in the military, that one group which upon joining you literally surrender your autonomy.

of course, this isn't any reason not to prosecute, as long as everyone is getting prosecuted.
laws can be aspirational and difficult for humans to obey.
our laws on theft and mislaid property might be example of where our ideals and what people most often would do will diverge significantly.
 
2012-03-17 04:11:13 PM

9beers: vygramul: TONS of documents and eye-witness testimony showing soldiers were allowed to recuse themselves.

Sir, I don't like what's taking place at this camp.
I understand your concerns, private. I'll have your orders tomorrow reassigning you to the front lines.
On second thought sir, I'll go back to my guard tower and read a book.
Good choice, private.


If you think everybody assigned to work at the camps was a willing participant in what was going on, you're ignorant on the way the world works, especially in WWII Germany.


...says the person whose understanding comes from movies.
 
2012-03-17 04:15:16 PM

9beers: vygramul: TONS of documents and eye-witness testimony showing soldiers were allowed to recuse themselves.

Sir, I don't like what's taking place at this camp.
I understand your concerns, private. I'll have your orders tomorrow reassigning you to the front lines.
On second thought sir, I'll go back to my guard tower and read a book.
Good choice, private.


If you think everybody assigned to work at the camps was a willing participant in what was going on, you're ignorant on the way the world works, especially in WWII Germany.


You are the one who does not understand. The people who worked in the death camps were all members of the SS. They volunteered for the SS and they volunteered to work in the camps. Since the camps were not in Germany, what went on in Germany has no bearing.
 
2012-03-17 04:19:12 PM

chuckufarlie: You cannot prove that he was in the Army, if you want to believe a confirmed liar, go ahead.


Why would the Holocaust Museum say he was in the Red Army? Why would they choose to believe someone they consider a mass-murdering camp guard on that point?
 
2012-03-17 04:23:06 PM

vygramul: Do you plan on "shooting the moon" with logical fallacies while back-peddling, or can I make up some bingo cards for farkers to play along?


Much too late for that. I called Bingo an hour ago.
 
2012-03-17 04:26:38 PM

vygramul: chuckufarlie: You cannot prove that he was in the Army, if you want to believe a confirmed liar, go ahead.

Why would the Holocaust Museum say he was in the Red Army? Why would they choose to believe someone they consider a mass-murdering camp guard on that point?


You would have to address that question to the people at the Holocaust Museum.
 
2012-03-17 04:28:22 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: White-Knighting a former SS prison guard?

Only in a fark thread.

/Riddance, it is good.


Y'know, as disgusting as it is...it's not white-knighting. Let's leave aside every scrap of scientific evidence showing that the people involved in the Nazi atrocities weren't monsters, and that if any of us had been there, we'd have done the same thing. The point of the justice system is that, if there's even a question of guilt, that question must be raised.

That applies even to Nazis. It doesn't mean what they did isn't horrible. It means we don't turn into them.
 
2012-03-17 04:37:33 PM
None of us know for certain what he personally did or did not do. There may be no documented proof that he served in the Soviet Army, for example. However it was common enough for foreign conscripts in the Wehrmacht that I do not find this hard to believe. If he was a guard at Sobibor for a time, it is likely that he did some nasty stuff there; at the very least he helped perpetuate some nasty, genocidal stuff. We'll never know for sure what his personal actions were.

That said, he was a teenager at the time. A teenager who went through the Soviet Terror in the Ukraine at the tender age of about 12. That's bound to disrupt your moral sensibilities. I don't know what I would do if I were thrust into the meat grinder that existed then between Stalin and Hitler. But it makes it difficult for me to pass firm moral judgments of any kind on those who did.
 
2012-03-17 04:45:33 PM
Bomb Head Mohammed: There are no reliable witnesses indicating whether he was a particularly harsh guard or not at sobibor.

How would you qualify that sort of statement?
"Yeah, I was at a death camp, but I was polite while I took part."
 
2012-03-17 04:59:41 PM

LindyJohn: None of us know for certain what he personally did or did not do. There may be no documented proof that he served in the Soviet Army, for example. However it was common enough for foreign conscripts in the Wehrmacht that I do not find this hard to believe. If he was a guard at Sobibor for a time, it is likely that he did some nasty stuff there; at the very least he helped perpetuate some nasty, genocidal stuff. We'll never know for sure what his personal actions were.

That said, he was a teenager at the time. A teenager who went through the Soviet Terror in the Ukraine at the tender age of about 12. That's bound to disrupt your moral sensibilities. I don't know what I would do if I were thrust into the meat grinder that existed then between Stalin and Hitler. But it makes it difficult for me to pass firm moral judgments of any kind on those who did.


I am sorry, but everybody went through some sort of hell in the 1930s and they did not all become monsters. He was not a victom
 
2012-03-17 05:00:59 PM

Unhip1: Bomb Head Mohammed: There are no reliable witnesses indicating whether he was a particularly harsh guard or not at sobibor.

How would you qualify that sort of statement?
"Yeah, I was at a death camp, but I was polite while I took part."


yes - Excuse me, sir. Would it be okay with you if I tossed you into this room full of carbon monoxide?
 
2012-03-17 05:01:03 PM

chuckufarlie: beer4breakfast: Higher level German officers and officials have been acquitted and left alone many years ago, yet this is the person many want to make their bogeyman? Call it for what it is, prostituting the Holocaust for petty vengeance.

higher level Germans officers were EXECUTED.


Not all of them. Albert Speer was very high level and was imprisoned then released. Many other officers have been completely acquitted.
 
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