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(USA Today)   This is not a repeat from 1945   (usatoday.com) divider line 314
    More: News, Demjanjuk, nazi death camps, Nazis, German police, Red Army, U.S. citizenship, Kilian Steger  
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37989 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2012 at 8:15 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-17 11:49:52 AM  

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: You uneducated morons who believe that this "man" was forced into this job as a camp guard really need to do a little research. The Nazis had no trouble recruiting Ukrainians...


Now why would any Ukrainian consider defecting from Soviet forces and joining the Nazis who were fighting the Soviets?

Possibly because they survived their own "Holocaust" (Holodomor - the one you never heard of) where Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich systematically and intentionally starved circa 7.5 MILLION Ukrainians to death in 1932-33 as collective punishment for their failure to cooperate with Soviet rule.

Demjanjuk was born in 1920. He would have been 12 years old when this genocide-by-famine took place, and I'm sure you can imagine the warm memories he had of watching millions of his fellow Ukrainians be systematically starved to death by the Soviets - and likely nearly starving to death himself.

And you wonder why Ukrainians might be interested in joining forces with ANYONE battling Stalin?

So this hapless Ukrainian survived one episode of extreme, tortuous, and murderous oppression (Holodomor), participated in another episode of extreme, tortuous, and murderous oppression (the Holocaust), was put on trial by a country that is currently engaged in yet another episode of extreme, tortuous, and murderous oppression (Israel), was found not guilty, only to be put on trial AGAIN by the country that committed the second mentioned episode of extreme, tortuous, and murderous oppression (Germany).

Yeah, he led a charmed life, that Demjanjuk guy.

I for one am glad to see that it's finally over.


No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.
 
2012-03-17 11:50:05 AM  

puffy999: That being said... may as well convict Nazi Youth of crimes. Or just anyone who live in Germany in the early 1940s.


Not really sure this applies to Demjanjuk.
 
2012-03-17 11:51:59 AM  

9beers: So some of you are saying that being a guard at a camp would be enough to call him a war criminal? You do realize that not everybody at the camps was responsible for mistreating, torturing and killing, right? The guards at these camps were ordinary German soldiers that received orders to report for duty. What choice did they have? Before you talk about a soldiers right to disobey unlawful order or a duty to report abuse, lets remember that we're talking about Germany in WWII and not the modern military. If a guard, or anybody else, would have refused to follow orders, they would have been shot on site or if they were lucky, sent to a labor camp where they most likely would have been abused and killed.

Some of you seem to think that they posted flyers looking for soldiers who wanted to work at death camps and kill Jews.


You are wrong on SOOO many levels. First, the guards were not ordinary soldiers, they were all either SS or locals recruited by the SS.

They did not put up flyers, but they did recruit locally.
 
2012-03-17 11:54:40 AM  

kim jong-un: chuckufarlie: wrong place, wrong time??? Is that how you justify what he did? Nobody forced him to be a prison guard.

You are a male of military age in a region between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. What kind sort of options are open to you?

I suppose I'm a pragmatist, and I lay a lot of the blame on the people who were involved BEFORE the war started. That was the chance that people had to really effect good change. But unfortunately once war breaks out, there isn't much of an option, especially when war has broken out between a totalitarian and oppressive communist dictatorship and an oppressive fascist dictatorship.

Soviet Union: Here, go march into death.
Man: Is there another option? *bang*
Soviet Union: You next in line, carry that body over there, then go march into death.

Nazi Germany: Here, be a guard.
Man: Is there another option?
Nazi Germany: Of course. There is this death grinder over there with the Soviet Union, the aforementioned guard job, or be the one being guarded but at the front of the line.

There was no cake option.


He had a choice, he volunteered to work as a guard. He was not forced. Lots of Ukrainian males of military age did not become camp guards.
 
2012-03-17 11:56:02 AM  

9beers: Some of you seem to think that they posted flyers looking for soldiers who wanted to work at death camps and kill Jews.


It's well known the Nazis founded Monster.com
 
2012-03-17 11:56:57 AM  
No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.

yeah, it's so easy isn't it? pick up a book sometime and learn something
 
2012-03-17 11:58:33 AM  

Kar98: chuckufarlie: MooseUpNorth: chuckufarlie: Refused what? To become a guard?

Refused to "volunteer", yes. What do you think would have happened to him had he refused/passed up/did not take the "opportunity" to be a guard?

Nothing would have happened to him. Regardless of your punctuation marks, he did really volunteer. He was not forced to do so.

Ohai, it's you again. "Nothing" = would have had an 80% chance of dying in a German POW camp, and failing that, 100% chance of being sent into a soviet gulag after repatriation.


If you want to believe that he actually was a Russian POW. I do not believe it because the Germans had all the volunteers they needed to act as guards in those camps. They had no need to as for volunteers from the POWs they had captured. It is always better to use a 100% volunteer as opposed to a "galvanized" Nazi.
 
2012-03-17 12:00:39 PM  

chuckufarlie: Yeah, he led a charmed life, that Demjanjuk guy.

I for one am glad to see that it's finally over.

No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.



Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?
 
2012-03-17 12:02:54 PM  

Amos Quito: Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?


Yeah - who doesn't love the Jews.
 
2012-03-17 12:03:11 PM  

9beers: Before you talk about a soldiers right to disobey unlawful order or a duty to report abuse, lets remember that we're talking about Germany in WWII and not the modern military. If a guard, or anybody else, would have refused to follow orders, they would have been shot on site or if they were lucky, sent to a labor camp where they most likely would have been abused and killed.


Turns out this is a myth. There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians. There are examples of soldiers who refused and did not face retaliation and no examples of soldiers who refused and were punished.

If it makes you feel better, however, soldiers involved in shooting helpless people were frequently given large amounts of alcohol to better "deal" with the aftermath. So they usually weren't zealously and gleefully killing people most of the time.
 
2012-03-17 12:03:32 PM  

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Yeah, he led a charmed life, that Demjanjuk guy.

I for one am glad to see that it's finally over.

No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.


Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?


Read a book.
 
2012-03-17 12:04:36 PM  

chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Yeah, he led a charmed life, that Demjanjuk guy.

I for one am glad to see that it's finally over.

No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.


Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?

Read a book.



Trust me, he has.
 
2012-03-17 12:05:00 PM  

danzak: No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.

yeah, it's so easy isn't it? pick up a book sometime and learn something


Yeah - I think it has just a touch more to do with Stalin having starved to death some 3.5 million Ukrainians a few years earlier. That kind of thing can cause some people to develop grudges.
 
2012-03-17 12:06:38 PM  

danzak: No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.

yeah, it's so easy isn't it? pick up a book sometime and learn something


I have actually read MANY books on the subject. There was a long history of actions against Jews in Eastern Europe. Would you like me to suggest some books so you can get educated?
 
2012-03-17 12:08:28 PM  

DavidVincent: chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Yeah, he led a charmed life, that Demjanjuk guy.

I for one am glad to see that it's finally over.

No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.


Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?

Read a book.


Trust me, he has.


Not if he has to ask that question.
 
2012-03-17 12:10:31 PM  
Would you like me to suggest some books so you can get educated?

Yes, please do. Preferably some that I don't need to color in.
 
2012-03-17 12:11:41 PM  

chuckufarlie: danzak: No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.

yeah, it's so easy isn't it? pick up a book sometime and learn something

I have actually read MANY books on the subject. There was a long history of actions against Jews in Eastern Europe. Would you like me to suggest some books so you can get educated?


It's true - the anti-Jewish history of Europe is quite appalling. But people tend to act on injuries more than simple hatreds. The fact that they intersected may have contributed, but it's not their anti-Jewish hatred that drove the vast majority of Ukrainians' decision to align with Germany.

For example: That there is an abhorrent amount of anti-Muslim hatred in the US is undeniable. However, that's not the reason we invaded Afghanistan. It required more than just hatred. Same with Ukraine in WWII. If the Russians had been generous protectors of the Ukraine for decades, rather than killing millions of them, Jew-hatred would have been insufficient to get the Ukrainians to join with the Germans.
 
2012-03-17 12:12:54 PM  

danzak: Would you like me to suggest some books so you can get educated?

Yes, please do. Preferably some that I don't need to color in.


You know, I just tried picturing what such a coloring book would be like.

"Daddy, can you hand me the pus-colored crayon?"
 
2012-03-17 12:23:54 PM  
Fark him! He and his kind murdered 8 of my family (women and children from 7 to 73). Burn in hell for eternity.
 
2012-03-17 12:24:03 PM  

Janusdog: Notabunny: Janusdog: Atrocities often bring out many helpers.

Man, if that's not the truth. Too many people believe the John Wayne and Lone Ranger shows are factual documentaries.

These situations are exactly where the phrase "the banality of evil" comes from.

When one of the top Nazis (I don't remember who at the moment...) was caught by the Israelis, they put him through psychological testing. All it showed was a guy who liked accounting and liked the pomp and circumstance of parades and such. He was not grossly psychotic or pathological.

Learning that during my psych doctorate will always stick with me. We are all capable of making the wrong choice. Evil does not announce itself with hallmarks.


I imagine a lot of people equate authority and process with good and correct. Too many people think 'evil' is only a dramatic and hyperbolic accusation, and not something they themselves create and promote by doing their part of a process.
 
2012-03-17 12:26:53 PM  
The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.
 
2012-03-17 12:29:24 PM  

chuckufarlie: DavidVincent: chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Yeah, he led a charmed life, that Demjanjuk guy.

I for one am glad to see that it's finally over.

No, I was not wondering why the Ukrainians joined up with Hitler but I think it had something to do with hating Jews.


Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?

Read a book.


Trust me, he has.

Not if he has to ask that question.



No, I want you to answer that question: Why would Ukrainians hate Jews?

And something more specific than 'becuz antisemitism duh" would be appreciated.
 
2012-03-17 12:29:56 PM  

chuckufarlie: You are wrong on SOOO many levels. First, the guards were not ordinary soldiers, they were all either SS or locals recruited by the SS.


Bullshiat they were. Even is some were hand selected by the SS, they weren't told of the true purpose of the camps.
 
2012-03-17 12:31:55 PM  
Gotta love the threads where the anti-semites out themselves.
/fark this old nazi
//and the one in the vatican
///and the white knights in this thread
 
2012-03-17 12:32:27 PM  

vygramul: There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians.


You're also full of shiat. There are many stories of German soldiers being executed for desertion, sent to labor camps for failing to obey orders and killed for refusing to participate in the killing of prisoners. Those of you who think that everybody in Germany wearing a uniform during WWII were Nazis are so damn ignorant it's not even funny.
 
2012-03-17 12:38:30 PM  
Gotta love it when a conversation goes in uncomortable directions that you can shut it down with "RACIST!" "ANTI-SEMITE!"
 
2012-03-17 12:39:40 PM  

9beers: vygramul: There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians.

You're also full of shiat. There are many stories of German soldiers being executed for desertion, sent to labor camps for failing to obey orders and killed for refusing to participate in the killing of prisoners. Those of you who think that everybody in Germany wearing a uniform during WWII were Nazis are so damn ignorant it's not even funny.


I will agree with most of what you said but I would need some citation to the idea that they were punished for not killing prisoner. Got any?
 
2012-03-17 12:42:52 PM  
He was a subject of terror much like our troops in Afghanistan. He was already innocent when he was at his post in whatever position. War lords should be prosecuted not the soldier. He was proven not to be Ivan. Should we prosecute the guards of Iraq war vets? False allegations bear no truth.
 
2012-03-17 12:44:00 PM  

DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.


I am surprised it took this long to try and pin the blame on jews.

I wonder why you didn't bring up Vyacheslav Molotov the guy who oversaw the Stalin regime's collectivisation of agriculture, signed the Law of Spikelets and personally led the Extraordinary Commission for Grain Delivery in Ukraine, which seized a reported 4.2 million tonnes of grain.
 
2012-03-17 12:46:51 PM  

liam76: DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.

I am surprised it took this long to try and pin the blame on jews.

I wonder why you didn't bring up Vyacheslav Molotov the guy who oversaw the Stalin regime's collectivisation of agriculture, signed the Law of Spikelets and personally led the Extraordinary Commission for Grain Delivery in Ukraine, which seized a reported 4.2 million tonnes of grain.



Liam, last time we talk you said you were an athiest. So you are not ethnically jewish?
 
2012-03-17 12:47:01 PM  

9beers: vygramul: There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians.

You're also full of shiat. There are many stories of German soldiers being executed for desertion, sent to labor camps for failing to obey orders and killed for refusing to participate in the killing of prisoners. Those of you who think that everybody in Germany wearing a uniform during WWII were Nazis are so damn ignorant it's not even funny.


Sorry, but you've been misled. Zero evidence supporting that claim. It's easy to believe, and until I studied it at UVA I was under that impression as well. But there really is no documentation to support that assertion.

BTW: my grandfather was in the Wehrmacht. 116th Infantry Regiment's anti-tank commander. So I'm not one of those guys.
 
2012-03-17 12:50:47 PM  

DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.


My family is Lithuanian. There's a lot of hatred for the Russians and Communists. No one has EVER said that it was the Jews who were the oppressors. Not in my family, not in the large Lithuanian community in Chicago, not the one in DC, and I've had extensive contact. Never. Not once. Not among the Latvians, either, for whom I worked on the Hill.

The only people who consider those synonymous had the hatred as a pre-existing condition.
 
2012-03-17 12:50:58 PM  

Notabunny: Pointing out the facts to nazi white nighters is not bullying. Pointing out that my position mirrors the prosecution's and the judges' is not bullying. Repeatedly asking for information supporting the position of those who disagree with me, the prosecution and the judges is not bullying. It's pretty funny that your position is so weak and unsupported that you view truth and reality as a big, bad bully.


Oh well that's nice because by the time you first called Bomb head a white knight you had

Not done A) Pointing out that my position mirrors the prosecution's
Not done B) and the judges' is not bullying.
Not done C) Repeatedly asking for information supporting the position of those who disagree with me

It's not that I view truth and reality as big bad bullies, I view you as a thread idiot and bully whose presence only serves to destroy actual conversation, dialog and argument.

But again, you know that.
 
2012-03-17 12:52:45 PM  
So this guy, who isn't German, gets hounded for three decades for not being sufficiently brave to make the proper (and dangerous) moral decisions. Meanwhile, Otto Ambros, who is German, tests poisons on concentration camp inmates and heads the synthetic rubber operations at Auschwitz and receives 8 years with time served (from an American court, admittedly), and then goes on to become an advisor to the West German chancellor because all is forgiven. The funny thing is, they're trying so hard to show they aren't Nazis any more, and the way they do it shows they haven't really changed all that much; Germans still get a pass while the subhuman Slavs must suffer.
 
2012-03-17 12:54:18 PM  

9beers: chuckufarlie: You are wrong on SOOO many levels. First, the guards were not ordinary soldiers, they were all either SS or locals recruited by the SS.

Bullshiat they were. Even is some were hand selected by the SS, they weren't told of the true purpose of the camps.


Soldiers of the HEER were not used as death camp guards, never, not once. The local people that were hand selected knew damned well what they were getting into
 
2012-03-17 12:55:32 PM  
I am convinced he was railroaded.

Israel is not the sort of place to give mercy to an ex--Nazi, but when even they could not be convinced of his guilt, that was enough for me.

This guy was no better than a PFC, but the people who gave the orders managed to escape scot--free, leaving the little fish to take the rap.

Hogwash, through and through.
 
2012-03-17 12:56:57 PM  

RoyBatty: Notabunny: Pointing out the facts to nazi white nighters is not bullying. Pointing out that my position mirrors the prosecution's and the judges' is not bullying. Repeatedly asking for information supporting the position of those who disagree with me, the prosecution and the judges is not bullying. It's pretty funny that your position is so weak and unsupported that you view truth and reality as a big, bad bully.

Oh well that's nice because by the time you first called Bomb head a white knight you had

Not done A) Pointing out that my position mirrors the prosecution's
Not done B) and the judges' is not bullying.
Not done C) Repeatedly asking for information supporting the position of those who disagree with me

It's not that I view truth and reality as big bad bullies, I view you as a thread idiot and bully whose presence only serves to destroy actual conversation, dialog and argument.

But again, you know that.


So your entire position that I'm a bully and have "actual conversation, dialog and argument" is only based on my comments before I replied to Bomb Head Mohammed? You do realize I made no comments before then, and my Weeners in the thread was a reply to BHM, right? I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't even rise to the level of 'silly'.
 
2012-03-17 12:57:44 PM  

DavidVincent: liam76: DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.

I am surprised it took this long to try and pin the blame on jews.

I wonder why you didn't bring up Vyacheslav Molotov the guy who oversaw the Stalin regime's collectivisation of agriculture, signed the Law of Spikelets and personally led the Extraordinary Commission for Grain Delivery in Ukraine, which seized a reported 4.2 million tonnes of grain.


Liam, last time we talk you said you were an athiest. So you are not ethnically jewish?


No. I am ethnically Irish (for the most part) the rest is western eurpoean mutt (since you are so interested in my familes religion, they were all catholic or protestant).

And my ethnicity has nothing to do with the fact that Molotov had a bigger role in Holodomor. Tell me honestly, had you never heard of him before? Does your info on it come from sources who only "blame the jews" or did you personally chose to assignt he blame to a jew?

Odd that you think they only person who would call out your BS is a jew.
 
2012-03-17 12:59:31 PM  

vygramul: Turns out this is a myth. There is zero evidence of retribution on soldiers refusing camp guard duty or carrying out orders to kill civilians. There are examples of soldiers who refused and did not face retaliation and no examples of soldiers who refused and were punished.


I, for one, am content to concede that drawing strong conclusions from little-to-no evidence is inherently wrong.
 
2012-03-17 01:01:17 PM  

chuckufarlie: 9beers: chuckufarlie: You are wrong on SOOO many levels. First, the guards were not ordinary soldiers, they were all either SS or locals recruited by the SS.

Bullshiat they were. Even is some were hand selected by the SS, they weren't told of the true purpose of the camps.

Soldiers of the HEER were not used as death camp guards, never, not once. The local people that were hand selected knew damned well what they were getting into


Not at first, at least. I once asked my grandmother when she first knew of the Holocaust, given she was in the middle of it all, and she said it was pretty early on in the DP camps that men who were posted to guard duty would come back on leave and tell stories about it, but that few people believed them.
 
2012-03-17 01:04:24 PM  

Notabunny: chuckufarlie: Notabunny: chuckufarlie: You really don't get it, do you???? LOOK at the post, you sent it to the wrong person.

You really don't get it, do you???? LOOK at the past, I sent it to you because you sided with danzak's position.

No, I did not. You started this because I asked you if you started drinking so early, CORRECT?

Yes, you did. Look at the post.


I wasn't going to intercede, because this is farking hilarious. I mean, really, really funny, but someone's got to put you out of your misery here. [wipes tears of laughter], but he's right. You've got the wrong guy. _I_ brought it up. Not him. He's been arguing for vengeance-over-justice, like you (more or less), the entire time.
 
2012-03-17 01:04:29 PM  

olddinosaur: I am convinced he was railroaded.

Israel is not the sort of place to give mercy to an ex--Nazi, but when even they could not be convinced of his guilt, that was enough for me.

This guy was no better than a PFC, but the people who gave the orders managed to escape scot--free, leaving the little fish to take the rap.

Hogwash, through and through.


I believe the Russians admitted the Soviets had forged his paperwork 30 or 40 years after the war.
 
2012-03-17 01:05:10 PM  

Notabunny: So your entire position that I'm a bully and have "actual conversation, dialog and argument" is only based on my comments before I replied to Bomb Head Mohammed? You do realize I made no comments before then, and my Weeners in the thread was a reply to BHM, right? I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't even rise to the level of 'silly'.


The word "destroyed" should be in there before "actual...", and apparently the phrase "Weeners" is caught by the filters and changed to Weeners. Weird.
 
2012-03-17 01:05:19 PM  

Notabunny: So your entire position that I'm a bully and have "actual conversation, dialog and argument" is only based on my comments before I replied to Bomb Head Mohammed? You do realize I made no comments before then, and my Weeners in the thread was a reply to BHM, right? I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't even rise to the level of 'silly'.


You're incoherent.

In your very Weenerss to bomb head you immediately call him a troll and white knight, you accuse him of probably being a racist bigot, and you have not done any of A), B), or C), and yet you are confused and offended anyone would say you are a bully and your presence only destroys reasonable conversation, dialog, and arguments, and ensures FARK threads are derpfests.

Congratulations.
 
2012-03-17 01:06:56 PM  

olddinosaur: Israel is not the sort of place to give mercy to an ex--Nazi, but when even they could not be convinced of his guilt, that was enough for me.


Israel wasn't convinced he was not "Ibvan the terrible" they thought there was ample evidence he was a prison guard, but that wasn't what they extrdiated him for and they thought it wasn't worth doing it again to get him for it.
 
2012-03-17 01:07:39 PM  

Notabunny: Notabunny: So your entire position that I'm a bully and have "actual conversation, dialog and argument" is only based on my comments before I replied to Bomb Head Mohammed? You do realize I made no comments before then, and my Weeners in the thread was a reply to BHM, right? I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't even rise to the level of 'silly'.

The word "destroyed" should be in there before "actual...", and apparently the phrase "Weeners" is caught by the filters and changed to Weeners. Weird.


Oh. That's right. I forgot. Now, that's funny.
 
2012-03-17 01:08:31 PM  

liam76: DavidVincent: liam76: DavidVincent: The Ukrainians' genocide was run by a Jew.

Lazar Kaganovich

There were so many Jews in the various communists parties in so many countries, including the Bosheviks, they became synonymous with Communism.

I am surprised it took this long to try and pin the blame on jews.

I wonder why you didn't bring up Vyacheslav Molotov the guy who oversaw the Stalin regime's collectivisation of agriculture, signed the Law of Spikelets and personally led the Extraordinary Commission for Grain Delivery in Ukraine, which seized a reported 4.2 million tonnes of grain.


Liam, last time we talk you said you were an athiest. So you are not ethnically jewish?

No. I am ethnically Irish (for the most part) the rest is western eurpoean mutt (since you are so interested in my familes religion, they were all catholic or protestant).

And my ethnicity has nothing to do with the fact that Molotov had a bigger role in Holodomor. Tell me honestly, had you never heard of him before? Does your info on it come from sources who only "blame the jews" or did you personally chose to assignt he blame to a jew?

Odd that you think they only person who would call out your BS is a jew.


Thanks for your answer. I am familiar with Molotov. I made my point earlier. In the early 20 century Jews were synonymous with Communism. Does that excuse anything? No.
 
2012-03-17 01:09:51 PM  

liam76: olddinosaur: Israel is not the sort of place to give mercy to an ex--Nazi, but when even they could not be convinced of his guilt, that was enough for me.

Israel wasn't convinced he was not "Ibvan the terrible" they thought there was ample evidence he was a prison guard, but that wasn't what they extrdiated him for and they thought it wasn't worth doing it again to get him for it.


There is a tendency for people to equate being found not guilty with innocence. That is certainly frequently true. But frequently, it is not.
 
2012-03-17 01:13:44 PM  
Meanwhile, in the GOP's secret headquarters: "We must use this for our political advantage. Fartbongo will clearly stop at nothing to make the US Nazi Germany. We need the voters to know that they too could be force to be soldiers then tried for war crimes 50+ years and have to die in a weird country."
 
2012-03-17 01:14:32 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Meanwhile, in the GOP's secret headquarters: "We must use this for our political advantage. Fartbongo will clearly stop at nothing to make the US Nazi Germany. We need the voters to know that they too could be force to be soldiers then tried for war crimes 50+ years and have to die in a weird country."


What?
 
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