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(ABC)   Latvians celebrate the memory of their soldiers who fought in WWII. Difficulty? They were part of the SS and fought for the Germans   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 224
    More: Interesting, Waffen SS, WWII, Lutherans, Latvia  
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5044 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Mar 2012 at 4:04 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-16 11:27:55 AM
The only way to fight for independance was in the Legion? Odd. Weren"t there partisan units like in Litthuania?
 
2012-03-16 11:46:43 AM

vygramul: The only way to fight for independance was in the Legion? Odd. Weren"t there partisan units like in Litthuania?


Yes but they would be fighting against two opponents the Germans and the Russians. It sucks to be caught in between two grizzly bears going for the same salmon.
 
2012-03-16 11:48:15 AM
Look at what the Finns did with the Nazis, not as much death camp work but did get the Russians out and no trials at Nuremberg
 
2012-03-16 12:50:18 PM
img.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-16 01:12:27 PM
while nearby Russians held a counterprotest to recall war crimes committed against Jews and other minorities

So the Lithuanians were there to honor their soldiers without acknowledging the SS, and the Russians were there to decry the holocaust without acknowledging the pogroms.

That must have been a really weird day.
 
2012-03-16 01:19:21 PM
In the long run, those guys did back the right horse. If those eastern European roll-over countries had a crystal ball, they'd have seen that Hitler's Germany would burn bright bright and die young while the Soviets would burn low and grind on for generations. Sure, it means you'd lose all your Jews, but backing the Germans meant your troubles would end in 4-5 years rather than 40-50 years.

/well, unless Roosevelt hands you over to the Russians at Yalta...
 
2012-03-16 01:25:43 PM

eurotrader: Look at what the Finns did with the Nazis, not as much death camp work but did get the Russians out and no trials at Nuremberg


Yeah, but geographically, they were insulated from the Germans and had far greater control over their destiny.
 
2012-03-16 01:26:25 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: while nearby Russians held a counterprotest to recall war crimes committed against Jews and other minorities

So the Lithuanians were there to honor their soldiers without acknowledging the SS, and the Russians were there to decry the holocaust without acknowledging the pogroms.

That must have been a really weird day.


Latvians.
 
2012-03-16 01:41:36 PM
They were fallen comrades, regardless of which side they fought on! They were still proud Latverians and should be honored as such!

www.fightersgeneration.com

/Oh, Latvians, you say
//Ummm, I just remembered I need to re-calibrate my Molecule Displacer...
 
2012-03-16 01:42:57 PM

CitizenTed: Sure, it means you'd lose all your Jews


I dont think they necessarily looked at that as a bad thing.
 
2012-03-16 02:14:27 PM
Nearly 80,000 Jews, or 90 percent of Latvia's prewar Jewish population, were killed in 1941-42, two years before the formation of the Latvian Waffen SS unit - which some Latvians claim shows the unit could not have played a role in the Holocaust.

Yeah, but the Arajs Kommando, which did engage in the wholesale slaughter of Latvia's Jewish population, was disbanded later in the war and its members transferred to the Waffen-SS.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-03-16 02:19:54 PM
"Russians held a counterprotest to recall war crimes committed against Jews and other minorities."

By the SS or the NKVD?
 
2012-03-16 02:39:04 PM
Dumbass Latvians thought they could make a deal with the Nazis.

You can't deal or bargain with pure evil, in the end it consumes you and everything else.
 
2012-03-16 02:46:15 PM
the finns sided with germany in WWII because they saw the soviet union as a bigger threat. they even had (backwards) swastikas on their planes.
 
2012-03-16 02:48:54 PM
Latvia and Estonia both had a long history of German rule, back when there wasn't one Germany so much as a mess of Teutonic dukedoms and principalities, united by culture and language. So they were pre-programmed to lean toward Germany - Nazi or otherwise.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-03-16 02:55:30 PM

FlashHarry: the finns sided with germany in WWII because they saw the soviet union as a bigger threat. they even had (backwards) swastikas on their planes.


The Finnish swastikas had nothing to do with Nazis, they used them before there was a Nazi party. The Finns fought against the USSR because the USSR had invaded them and kicked their butts before WWII. The Finns even call WWII "The Continuation War" because they were trying to take their territory back.
.
 
2012-03-16 03:35:36 PM

vpb: The Finnish swastikas had nothing to do with Nazis, they used them before there was a Nazi party. The Finns fought against the USSR because the USSR had invaded them and kicked their butts before WWII. The Finns even call WWII "The Continuation War" because they were trying to take their territory back.


i'm familiar with the "winter war." (i lived in helsinki as a kid). i wasn't aware of the swastika thing. thanks for the info.
 
2012-03-16 03:52:53 PM
The swastika was a common aviator good luck symbol throughout early aviation until wwii. There used to be a life-sized pic of Earhardt wearing a swastika at the National Air and Space museum, but some imbecile vanddalazed it and scratched the pic up to get rid of it.
 
2012-03-16 03:54:04 PM
i512.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-16 04:09:42 PM
Your side lost! Get over it. Stupid hillbillies.
 
2012-03-16 04:09:47 PM
Geesh, people are still butthurt about WWII? That was almost 30 years ago, can't we just say both sides had their points and move on?
 
2012-03-16 04:11:10 PM

Jake Havechek: Dumbass Latvians thought they could make a deal with the Nazis.

You can't deal or bargain with pure evil, in the end it consumes you and everything else.


Soviets were pure evil, too. What's your point?
 
2012-03-16 04:11:28 PM
forward.com

"Those who forget history are doomed to.......something something....I forget the rest." - R. Reagan
 
2012-03-16 04:12:34 PM

BigLuca: Geesh, people are still butthurt about WWII? That was almost 30 years ago, can't we just say both sides had their points and move on?


Almost sure that not serious, but you never know anymore...
 
2012-03-16 04:17:34 PM
It's heritage not hate.
 
2012-03-16 04:19:02 PM

eurotrader: Look at what the Finns did with the Nazis, not as much death camp work but did get the Russians out and no trials at Nuremberg


the Scandinavians had the baltic sea as a buffer.
plus aren't we imputing knowledge to the latvians of that era that was only available to us after the war?
and don't forget, everyone was evil at that time.
no matter what side the latvians would have chosen the victors could have charged the losers with committing crimes against humanity.
the british enslaved all of the indian subcontinent to extract resources for war. they pillaged bengal so thoroughly in fact that they transformed that region from one of the richest in history to a perpetually starving region even to this day.
the french had enslaved algeria and would go on to practice torture after ww2 that looked exactly like the gestapo.
the russians were exterminating the leadership class in poland.
the japanese were enslaving and exterminating peoples, and raping entire cities.
we were practicing eugenics, and throwing entire races of our citizens into concentration camps.
we just here about the nazis crimes because the truth wouldn't make a good movie.
 
2012-03-16 04:19:25 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: [forward.com image 298x345]

"Those who forget history are doomed to.......something something....I forget the rest." - R. Reagan


Yeah, that ceremony was a pretty big deal. But not for what you think (new window).
 
2012-03-16 04:21:06 PM

vygramul: The swastika was a common aviator good luck symbol throughout early aviation until wwii. There used to be a life-sized pic of Earhardt wearing a swastika at the National Air and Space museum, but some imbecile vanddalazed it and scratched the pic up to get rid of it.


I call bullshiat. I have been to the Nascar Museum many times and I never saw that that.
 
2012-03-16 04:21:29 PM
www.turnerashbycamp.com
 
2012-03-16 04:21:36 PM

BigLuca: Geesh, people are still butthurt about WWII? That was almost 30 years ago, can't we just say both sides had their points and move on?


I can't believe the audacity of people who drive around with giant swastika bumper stickers and claim its just their "heritage".
 
2012-03-16 04:22:23 PM

Kar98: Jake Havechek: Dumbass Latvians thought they could make a deal with the Nazis.

You can't deal or bargain with pure evil, in the end it consumes you and everything else.

Soviets were pure evil, too. What's your point?


They knew what the Soviets were like, but they expected Hitler and the Nazis to deal with them in good faith.
 
2012-03-16 04:22:58 PM

Rapmaster2000: It's heritage not hate.


Damn it! You and your brevity.
 
2012-03-16 04:23:05 PM

CitizenTed: In the long run, those guys did back the right horse. If those eastern European roll-over countries had a crystal ball, they'd have seen that Hitler's Germany would burn bright bright and die young while the Soviets would burn low and grind on for generations. Sure, it means you'd lose all your Jews, but backing the Germans meant your troubles would end in 4-5 years rather than 40-50 years.

/well, unless Roosevelt hands you over to the Russians at Yalta...


...since the Red Army was going to occupy your countries anyway and could have started supplying Japan, including oil and Lend Lease equipment, if the US and their Brit dependents got pissy about it...
 
2012-03-16 04:24:30 PM

relcec: eurotrader: Look at what the Finns did with the Nazis, not as much death camp work but did get the Russians out and no trials at Nuremberg

the Scandinavians had the baltic sea as a buffer.
plus aren't we imputing knowledge to the latvians of that era that was only available to us after the war?
and don't forget, everyone was evil at that time.
no matter what side the latvians would have chosen the victors could have charged the losers with committing crimes against humanity.
the british enslaved all of the indian subcontinent to extract resources for war. they pillaged bengal so thoroughly in fact that they transformed that region from one of the richest in history to a perpetually starving region even to this day.
the french had enslaved algeria and would go on to practice torture after ww2 that looked exactly like the gestapo.
the russians were exterminating the leadership class in poland.
the japanese were enslaving and exterminating peoples, and raping entire cities.
we were practicing eugenics, and throwing entire races of our citizens into concentration camps.
we just here about the nazis crimes because the truth wouldn't make a good movie.


Are you seriously drawing a moral equivalence between internment and extermination?
 
2012-03-16 04:24:50 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: while nearby Russians held a counterprotest to recall war crimes committed against Jews and other minorities

So the Lithuanians were there to honor their soldiers without acknowledging the SS, and the Russians were there to decry the holocaust without acknowledging the pogroms.

That must have been a really weird day.


The Russian involvment in WWII is interesting; it's important to remember that 1 in 3 of every persons killed during the war was Russian(over 20 millions) and they lost more people per capita than any country except Lithuania. And while many people were killed during the pogroms, it barely makes a dent in the overall numbers.

/the American WWII myth aside, countries like Lithuania got the short end of the stick during the war and it's hard to blame them at this late date for remembering their dead.
 
2012-03-16 04:25:26 PM

Rapmaster2000: It's heritage not hate.


Damn it. Damn it damn it.
 
2012-03-16 04:27:08 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-03-16 04:29:21 PM

FlashHarry: the finns sided with germany in WWII because they saw the soviet union as a bigger threat. they even had (backwards) swastikas on their planes.


The Finns sided with Germany because after they fought the USSR for a year with no help and lost, they wanted paybacks against Stalin. And they no longer trusted the Allies, and who could blame them? When they were fighting the Soviets and begging for help everyone sat back and said "We'll see how this goes before we commit."

The Winter War was a pretty sorry affair, and I for one never blamed them for throwing in with Germany afterwards.
 
2012-03-16 04:29:28 PM

FlashHarry: the finns sided with germany in WWII because they saw the soviet union as a bigger threat. they even had (backwards) swastikas on their planes.


Only during the Continuation War. During the earlier Winter War the Germans were the enemy as they were allies of the Russian.
 
2012-03-16 04:30:30 PM

FlashHarry: vpb: The Finnish swastikas had nothing to do with Nazis, they used them before there was a Nazi party. The Finns fought against the USSR because the USSR had invaded them and kicked their butts before WWII. The Finns even call WWII "The Continuation War" because they were trying to take their territory back.

i'm familiar with the "winter war." (i lived in helsinki as a kid). i wasn't aware of the swastika thing. thanks for the info.


To save you some Google-fu (new window)
 
2012-03-16 04:31:29 PM

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: CitizenTed: In the long run, those guys did back the right horse. If those eastern European roll-over countries had a crystal ball, they'd have seen that Hitler's Germany would burn bright bright and die young while the Soviets would burn low and grind on for generations. Sure, it means you'd lose all your Jews, but backing the Germans meant your troubles would end in 4-5 years rather than 40-50 years.

/well, unless Roosevelt hands you over to the Russians at Yalta...

...since the Red Army was going to occupy your countries anyway and could have started supplying Japan, including oil and Lend Lease equipment, if the US and their Brit dependents got pissy about it...


The Russian Navy was never really all that good, and in WWII it was, well, pathetic. Unless they had a clever plan to swim all that stuff to Japan, well...

In other words, bullshiat. Russia depended on US lend-lease up until the very end, unable to even feed its army without it. By the time it would have been an issue, the US had complete domination of all oceans everywhere and there's no way in Hell that stuff would have made it to Japan in time to be incinerated by nukes.

Russia was tapped out. It was done. It had no one else to conscript. Keep in mind the Russian and US 1937 population was roughly exual, subtract 20million fighting-age adults, and the US was positively fresh in comparison. Throw in b-29s operating at altitudes YAKs could only dream of, and you're not looking at a recipe for success for Russia.
 
2012-03-16 04:33:30 PM
Civil War Memorials in the South still OK.
 
2012-03-16 04:33:58 PM
So it was a parade for losers?
 
2012-03-16 04:35:56 PM

vygramul: relcec: eurotrader: Look at what the Finns did with the Nazis, not as much death camp work but did get the Russians out and no trials at Nuremberg

the Scandinavians had the baltic sea as a buffer.
plus aren't we imputing knowledge to the latvians of that era that was only available to us after the war?
and don't forget, everyone was evil at that time.
no matter what side the latvians would have chosen the victors could have charged the losers with committing crimes against humanity.
the british enslaved all of the indian subcontinent to extract resources for war. they pillaged bengal so thoroughly in fact that they transformed that region from one of the richest in history to a perpetually starving region even to this day.
the french had enslaved algeria and would go on to practice torture after ww2 that looked exactly like the gestapo.
the russians were exterminating the leadership class in poland.
the japanese were enslaving and exterminating peoples, and raping entire cities.
we were practicing eugenics, and throwing entire races of our citizens into concentration camps.
we just here about the nazis crimes because the truth wouldn't make a good movie.

Are you seriously drawing a moral equivalence between internment and extermination?


Indeed! In contrast because we weren't exterminating anyone, America should have been able to do anything that wasn't extermination, right?
 
2012-03-16 04:36:02 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: BigLuca: Geesh, people are still butthurt about WWII? That was almost 30 years ago, can't we just say both sides had their points and move on?

I can't believe the audacity of people who drive around with giant swastika bumper stickers and claim its just their "heritage".


Not every single member of the SS killed Jews, so you can't say the SS was a key participant in the Holocaust.
 
2012-03-16 04:36:58 PM
As an Estonian, I can shed light on the history.

For one, the Baltic states were occupied by the Soviets (Stalin) before WW2 kicked off. No one came to our aid, and we didn't have the ability to trade land for independence like Finland did if we had fought. Thousands died, including most of our intelligencia.

The year of occupation was so brutal than when the Nazis invaded, they were seen as liberators from a greater evil.

In '43, when the war started to go badly, Baltic men were conscripted into the German military, because that was the only military they could fight in during those years.

The Waffen SS groups were composed of mostly non-Germans everywhere, and were not the SS groups running the death camps. This was also hashed out in the Nuremburg trials.

The Nazis fled, and the Balts tried to re-establish their independence, but were squashed. Many who fought in those units became members of the Forest Brothers, a guerrilla movement that lasted well into the 1970s against the communists. They hoped that the West would eventually come to save them, although 1968 made it clear that you wouldn't.

So, you have a few old men that are honoring their dead comrades, and many of them fought for the hope that their country would one day regain their independence.

Any other hype is just propaganda - "ZOMG! THEY ARE HONORING NAZIS!!!!"

To be coldly clinical, the Nazis probably would have been worse if they had won, because the rot in communism (and Russia) was so bad during their 50-year occupation. Germans know efficiency. But it was the very definition of being between a rock and a hard place.
 
2012-03-16 04:37:27 PM

rudemix: vygramul: relcec: eurotrader: Look at what the Finns did with the Nazis, not as much death camp work but did get the Russians out and no trials at Nuremberg

the Scandinavians had the baltic sea as a buffer.
plus aren't we imputing knowledge to the latvians of that era that was only available to us after the war?
and don't forget, everyone was evil at that time.
no matter what side the latvians would have chosen the victors could have charged the losers with committing crimes against humanity.
the british enslaved all of the indian subcontinent to extract resources for war. they pillaged bengal so thoroughly in fact that they transformed that region from one of the richest in history to a perpetually starving region even to this day.
the french had enslaved algeria and would go on to practice torture after ww2 that looked exactly like the gestapo.
the russians were exterminating the leadership class in poland.
the japanese were enslaving and exterminating peoples, and raping entire cities.
we were practicing eugenics, and throwing entire races of our citizens into concentration camps.
we just here about the nazis crimes because the truth wouldn't make a good movie.

Are you seriously drawing a moral equivalence between internment and extermination?

Indeed! In contrast because we weren't exterminating anyone, America should have been able to do anything that wasn't extermination, right?


Or, perhaps a more accurate analytical conclusion would be to think that maybe some additional attention is paid to Nazi Germany for an objective reason.
 
2012-03-16 04:38:22 PM

Do the needful: I call bullshiat. I have been to the Nascar Museum many times and I never saw that that.


Nicely played, sir.

/or ma'am?
 
2012-03-16 04:38:26 PM
I have a Latvian in-law, age 85, who was employed in a Nazi abor camp during the War. She admits that the Latvians hated the Russians much more than the Germans, whom they viewed as liberators.
 
2012-03-16 04:39:15 PM

rufus-t-firefly: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: BigLuca: Geesh, people are still butthurt about WWII? That was almost 30 years ago, can't we just say both sides had their points and move on?

I can't believe the audacity of people who drive around with giant swastika bumper stickers and claim its just their "heritage".

Not every single member of the SS killed Jews, so you can't say the SS was a key participant in the Holocaust.


Interestingly enough, mere membership in the SS (excluding Waffen-SS) made you guilty of conspiracy to commit murder at Nuremberg.
 
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