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(The Daily Beast)   "Most Americans, and the vast majority of Republicans, don't realize that taxes have decreased under Obama." The More You Know ΞΞΞΞΞΞ★   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 33
    More: PSA, Republican, obama  
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3617 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Mar 2012 at 11:20 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-03-15 08:54:20 PM  
8 votes:
To be fair, "Most Americans, and the vast majority of Republicans, don't realize that..." is a way to start a whole lot of true statements.
2012-03-15 09:35:41 PM  
5 votes:
Republicans realize it, they just know there's no benefit to admitting it.
2012-03-15 08:40:17 PM  
5 votes:

AdolfOliverPanties: Of course, Republicans are rattling their sabres about Iran, which is the 4th largest oil producer in the world, so this causes speculators to shiat their collective pants and drive the price of oil up. Then, Americans spend hundreds more at the pump each year and lose the benefit of the payroll tax holiday Obama just signed (which Republicans were against.)

Republicans: Farking up America is policy.


WE'RE GONNA MAKE OUR TEAM WIN, OR WE'LL BLOW UP THE WHOLE GODDAMNED STADIUM!
2012-03-15 11:29:10 PM  
4 votes:
It's tough to listen to the pundits and the candidates this election without thinking "where's my voice?" "Where's my candidate?"

It seems as though we are witnessing a fight between the lesser of "who cares?" but it shouldn't be like that. We should not have candidates who run on lies and half-truths. We should not have candidates who speak for the powerful but do nothing for the common man. For it is far more disrespectful and disingenuous for a wealthy businessman to say that he knows the hardships of the poor. Just that it is too unfair to have a man who believes that we should be a Christian theocracy because God wills it. I don't know what God that man speaks to, but I know that he would be going against the founding principles of our country for which he says he loves so much.

Our two party system is broken. We have the party of the right wing and we have the party of the radical right wing. To those that seek social progress, and smaller governments, we have no voice. There is no moderate party anymore. There is no "Party of Lincoln" or "Party of Roosevelt" just the "Party of me." And I don't know about you, but there is more to this country than one man's beliefs and one man's set of ideals.

What we need is a party that looks to at all views on a subject, that can take a situation and look for the best solution. We don't have that anymore, it's either one party's system or the other with no compromise, no looking for another alternative. We need to fix that. We need a party that solves the issues plaguing this country with logic and reason.

These solutions won't fix it overnight but that's the mindset we need to stop having. We can't keep doing quick-fixes on issues and expect it to be solved. We need to look at long-term impacts and fix it with long-term solutions.
2012-03-15 08:39:20 PM  
4 votes:
Of course, Republicans are rattling their sabres about Iran, which is the 4th largest oil producer in the world, so this causes speculators to shiat their collective pants and drive the price of oil up. Then, Americans spend hundreds more at the pump each year and lose the benefit of the payroll tax holiday Obama just signed (which Republicans were against.)

Republicans: Farking up America is policy.
2012-03-15 10:55:37 PM  
3 votes:
Facts for many people are derived from values, rather than the other way around. People need their values on a day to day basis more than they encounter factual abstractions. It may suck, but its still the case. Now having read the original article (new window), I agree that this confusion of facts and opinions is a big problem, especially among the batshiat-crazy reactionaries who see no difference between the two at all. However, when it comes to the specific issue of taxation, it should be pointed out that the TeaBagger/Republican mantra has been about long term middle class tax burdens with these higher debts much more than immediate middle class tax burden. Whether you interpret the question as short-term or long-term makes a difference, and perhaps a reasonable one at that. And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.
2012-03-16 08:59:06 AM  
2 votes:
It's a great situation for conservatives.

You have a sitting president who is decreasing taxes. He even decreased "entitlements", including but not limited to, proposing cutting HEAP benefits in half (the republican congress did so, but their proposed cuts were less than the white house recommendation). He was also instrumental in passing a health care law with markedly conservative origins.

In the meantime, you have a rabid group of people calling this president a socialist who wants to make a socialist welfare state. These people are moving the the goalpost further and further to the right while the career democrats eagerly follow them. Any liberal who doesn't go along with the increasingly conservative agenda of the democrats is ostracized.

It seems to be a great time for conservative, regardless of which party they identify.
2012-03-16 07:14:36 AM  
2 votes:

Mearen: FirstNationalBastard: Stupid reality and its liberal bias.

My reality is that my taxes have increased. Who's biased again?


Well, I'm not calling you a liar, but....I can't think how to finish that sentence. Based on my experience with other people who have claimed their taxes have gone up.

Unless of course, you're just making a lot more money now. In which case, shut up and pay your taxes, or else quit making the extra money.
2012-03-15 11:30:03 PM  
2 votes:

Somacandra: Facts for many people are derived from values, rather than the other way around. People need their values on a day to day basis more than they encounter factual abstractions. It may suck, but its still the case. Now having read the original article (new window), I agree that this confusion of facts and opinions is a big problem, especially among the batshiat-crazy reactionaries who see no difference between the two at all. However, when it comes to the specific issue of taxation, it should be pointed out that the TeaBagger/Republican mantra has been about long term middle class tax burdens with these higher debts much more than immediate middle class tax burden. Whether you interpret the question as short-term or long-term makes a difference, and perhaps a reasonable one at that. And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.


11/10. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. At least the part where you suggest that the Republicans have a nuanced view of taxation.
2012-03-17 06:06:20 PM  
1 votes:

misdirected leisure activity:
Who should you vote for when you don't agree with any of the running platforms?


You're not going to get everything in one package. Reality doesn't work like that. What you have to do is either find the person that meets most of your requirements with the least amount of crazy, or vote for the person who meets just a few of your requirements if the other candidate is too crazy.

Life is compromise. Utopia is a myth.
2012-03-16 10:32:54 AM  
1 votes:

dumbobruni: to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous.


For example, EWreckedSean's quoting of a "Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike" is particularly disengenuous when you read the wikipedia version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liquor#U.S._tax_credit_2007_-_2010

Because removing a tax credit is also know as a tax hike.
2012-03-16 09:56:47 AM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.


From what I remember Democrats were saying high gas prices were being caused by speculators, and should be regulated, while Republicans were saying they were caused by supply and demand, and we needed to drill more to increase the supply. Interestingly, it did turn out that the high prices were caused by speculators, and not a lack of supply
2012-03-16 09:41:21 AM  
1 votes:

EWreckedSean: I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"


almost all of these have not taken effect yet, the main exception being the tanning bed tax. and some of these taxes are meant to offset the tax credits for small businesses (ie job creators) that began in 2010.

to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous. it may start to increase soon, but an actual increase for now? no, unless you use tanning beds.

Link (new window)
2012-03-16 09:40:08 AM  
1 votes:

ManRay: LasersHurt: "Taxes have decreased under Obama" is such a general statement it is meaningless. I suppose that is why it will become a talking point for the campaign though.

Surely you understand why this is being brought up? Surely you are aware of the larger context here.


I understand it is a weasel statement meant to avoid a real discussion about the subject (for whatever reason). That is the larger context.


No, it's not. It's a counter to the weasel and nonfactual statement that Obama's raised taxes, that the entire right-wing is pushing. If you're not making over 250k a year, your taxes have gone down under Obama. End of story.
2012-03-16 09:31:40 AM  
1 votes:
for people claiming that Obama didn't cut taxes: I guess you don't remember the stimulus bill.

Roughly 97% of American households could see tax savings as a result of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, according to a new analysis by a nonpartisan research group.

The Tax Policy Center crunched the numbers and concluded that the average savings would be $1,179. But how much a household actually gets depends on income, marital status and whether a filer has children. The savings range from a few hundred dollars to several thousand.


CNN in 2009
Link (new window)

Politifact in 2010

Link (new window)
2012-03-16 09:16:59 AM  
1 votes:
The less money you make and have, the higher your taxes are. Period.

A poor person needs five bucks more than someone making $80K.
2012-03-16 07:21:53 AM  
1 votes:
some people's state taxes have increased substantially (income, sales, property)

rather than blame their local politicians, they blame the feds.
2012-03-16 03:13:36 AM  
1 votes:

James F. Campbell:

They would then be accused of being "liberal media," just like NPR was when NPR dared to report controversial things like, say, reality and facts.


You mean this NPR?

truthisawoman.files.wordpress.com

/hot like Faux News rage.
2012-03-16 02:07:31 AM  
1 votes:
Imagine if the U.S. media gave to fact-checking and actual journalism 1/10 of the resources they give to "telling both sides" and "balance."

Instead of just having two idiots screaming at each other about "SPENDING GOOD!!!" "TAXES BADDDD!!!" they could, you know, give some figures.
2012-03-16 01:44:27 AM  
1 votes:

vpb: That may tell you something about Republicans, but at some point Americans will have to start paying their bills. If you want to live in a first world country, then you have to pay the cost.


Screw that then. I'll live in the US instead.
2012-03-16 12:20:10 AM  
1 votes:

Badfrog: Woopie, the 1% change to the withholding for every working person counts as the 'biggest tax cut in history' because it affects every person in the country that gets a paycheck, by about $40 a month.

The 2001/2003 tax bracket changes were a helluva lot more significant for everyone that makes more than minimum wage.


LOLWUT?

www.americanthinker.com
2012-03-15 11:57:55 PM  
1 votes:

davidphogan: Sabyen91: tinyarena: These days any sentence beginning with "Most Americans" makes me nervous.

Most Americans like sex.

Yeah, but how many will admit it?


You don't have to go to confession before you go into that little chamber to pull the lever.
2012-03-15 11:42:14 PM  
1 votes:

praymantis: ssa5: I am so glad that every 2 years we have such an intelligent and informed citizenry that makes such wise decisions.

I think that a few of the Republicans probably do know the truth, just afraid to admit it seeing as this undermines their entire ideology of lies and deception.

It is also true that because the economy is so weak tax revenues are lower because consumption is less as is income. If we are to give Obama credit for the lower taxes will we give him credit for the weaker economy?


No, tax receipts as a percentage of GDP are at the lowest since the '50s. That pretty much removes the economy from the equation.

Math, how the fark does that work?
2012-03-15 11:42:06 PM  
1 votes:

tinyarena: These days any sentence beginning with "Most Americans" makes me nervous.


Most Americans like sex.

/Honestly, I don't get how the right doesn't understand that 4 word sentence.
2012-03-15 11:35:16 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: Facts for many people are derived from values, rather than the other way around. People need their values on a day to day basis more than they encounter factual abstractions. It may suck, but its still the case. Now having read the original article (new window), I agree that this confusion of facts and opinions is a big problem, especially among the batshiat-crazy reactionaries who see no difference between the two at all. However, when it comes to the specific issue of taxation, it should be pointed out that the TeaBagger/Republican mantra has been about long term middle class tax burdens with these higher debts much more than immediate middle class tax burden. Whether you interpret the question as short-term or long-term makes a difference, and perhaps a reasonable one at that. And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.


I remember you being a reactionary, long ago. Wow, you made very good points. Well done.
2012-03-15 11:29:19 PM  
1 votes:

praymantis: Somacandra: Facts for many people are derived from values, rather than the other way around. People need their values on a day to day basis more than they encounter factual abstractions. It may suck, but its still the case. Now having read the original article (new window), I agree that this confusion of facts and opinions is a big problem, especially among the batshiat-crazy reactionaries who see no difference between the two at all. However, when it comes to the specific issue of taxation, it should be pointed out that the TeaBagger/Republican mantra has been about long term middle class tax burdens with these higher debts much more than immediate middle class tax burden. Whether you interpret the question as short-term or long-term makes a difference, and perhaps a reasonable one at that. And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.

You are being rational and logical that line of thought is dangerous in the Fark Politics tab.


Hehe, the trap has been sprung.
2012-03-15 10:53:08 PM  
1 votes:
But all those tea party signs can't be wrong.
2012-03-15 10:46:30 PM  
1 votes:

simsite9: Republicans realize it, they just know there's no benefit to admitting it.


They also know their base will believe the most ridiculous anti-Obama lies they can come up with.
2012-03-15 10:06:42 PM  
1 votes:

simsite9: Republicans realize it, they just know there's no benefit to admitting it.


Forward: VAGINAS
2012-03-15 09:27:30 PM  
1 votes:
This is bad news.....for Obama.
2012-03-15 08:52:03 PM  
1 votes:

cman: Pete and repeat were in a boat...


And then they exploded as they floated into a land mine placed by an air man.
2012-03-15 08:43:41 PM  
1 votes:

AdolfOliverPanties: Of course, Republicans are rattling their sabres about Iran, which is the 4th largest oil producer in the world, so this causes speculators to shiat their collective pants and drive the price of oil up. Then, Americans spend hundreds more at the pump each year and lose the benefit of the payroll tax holiday Obama just signed (which Republicans were against.)

Republicans: Farking up America is policy.


The really ironic part of it all is we don't even import any oil from Iran itself.
2012-03-15 08:30:00 PM  
1 votes:
Stupid reality and its liberal bias.
 
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