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(The Daily Beast)   "Most Americans, and the vast majority of Republicans, don't realize that taxes have decreased under Obama." The More You Know ΞΞΞΞΞΞ★   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 201
    More: PSA, Republican, obama  
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3617 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Mar 2012 at 11:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-16 09:06:11 AM  

Somacandra: Facts for many people are derived from values, rather than the other way around. People need their values on a day to day basis more than they encounter factual abstractions.


Values are abstractions, not facts. Fail.
 
2012-03-16 09:16:39 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: also nice to see 0bama gets so much credit for extending the evil Bush tax cuts.


If he got what he really wanted and let them expire, would he still be able to claim that he has lowered taxes? His lack of success in getting the tax code where he wants it gives him the ability to say he has lowered taxes. It's win win!
 
2012-03-16 09:16:59 AM  
The less money you make and have, the higher your taxes are. Period.

A poor person needs five bucks more than someone making $80K.
 
2012-03-16 09:18:39 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: The less money you make and have, the higher your taxes are. Period.


And where do refundable tax credits fit into this little truism of yours?
 
2012-03-16 09:23:50 AM  

ManRay: "Taxes have decreased under Obama" is such a general statement it is meaningless. I suppose that is why it will become a talking point for the campaign though.


Surely you understand why this is being brought up? Surely you are aware of the larger context here.
 
2012-03-16 09:31:40 AM  
for people claiming that Obama didn't cut taxes: I guess you don't remember the stimulus bill.

Roughly 97% of American households could see tax savings as a result of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, according to a new analysis by a nonpartisan research group.

The Tax Policy Center crunched the numbers and concluded that the average savings would be $1,179. But how much a household actually gets depends on income, marital status and whether a filer has children. The savings range from a few hundred dollars to several thousand.


CNN in 2009
Link (new window)

Politifact in 2010

Link (new window)
 
2012-03-16 09:31:50 AM  
I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"
 
2012-03-16 09:37:02 AM  

LasersHurt: "Taxes have decreased under Obama" is such a general statement it is meaningless. I suppose that is why it will become a talking point for the campaign though.

Surely you understand why this is being brought up? Surely you are aware of the larger context here.



I understand it is a weasel statement meant to avoid a real discussion about the subject (for whatever reason). That is the larger context.
 
2012-03-16 09:37:06 AM  

EWreckedSean: -- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"


Why is this bad thing? If you're just dumping money in a tax shelter for the sake of avoiding taxes, you shouldn't be given a free pass for it. I'm all for tax deductions where the party is creating some other benefit to society with the money, but gaming the system for personal gain seems to be against the point of equitably distributed taxation.
 
2012-03-16 09:39:44 AM  

ManRay: LasersHurt: "Taxes have decreased under Obama" is such a general statement it is meaningless. I suppose that is why it will become a talking point for the campaign though.

Surely you understand why this is being brought up? Surely you are aware of the larger context here.


I understand it is a weasel statement meant to avoid a real discussion about the subject (for whatever reason). That is the larger context.


Explain. I'm curious.
 
2012-03-16 09:40:08 AM  

ManRay: LasersHurt: "Taxes have decreased under Obama" is such a general statement it is meaningless. I suppose that is why it will become a talking point for the campaign though.

Surely you understand why this is being brought up? Surely you are aware of the larger context here.


I understand it is a weasel statement meant to avoid a real discussion about the subject (for whatever reason). That is the larger context.


No, it's not. It's a counter to the weasel and nonfactual statement that Obama's raised taxes, that the entire right-wing is pushing. If you're not making over 250k a year, your taxes have gone down under Obama. End of story.
 
2012-03-16 09:41:05 AM  
As I get older I'm convinced of two things, one 70% of Americans are the dumbest god dam people I've ever had the misfortune to meet and there are no bad kids only bad parents, teachers, coaches etc...
 
2012-03-16 09:41:21 AM  

EWreckedSean: I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"


almost all of these have not taken effect yet, the main exception being the tanning bed tax. and some of these taxes are meant to offset the tax credits for small businesses (ie job creators) that began in 2010.

to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous. it may start to increase soon, but an actual increase for now? no, unless you use tanning beds.

Link (new window)
 
2012-03-16 09:44:01 AM  
encrypted-tbn1.google.com

Meanwhile, at Free Republic.
 
2012-03-16 09:47:31 AM  
i195.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-16 09:50:18 AM  

Shaggy_C: EWreckedSean: -- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"

Why is this bad thing? If you're just dumping money in a tax shelter for the sake of avoiding taxes, you shouldn't be given a free pass for it. I'm all for tax deductions where the party is creating some other benefit to society with the money, but gaming the system for personal gain seems to be against the point of equitably distributed taxation.


The doctrine is incredibly vague, with no clear guidelines on when it will apply, and the government can in turn stack heavy penalties onto you if they decide you are violating it. Besides which, what exactly is wrong with doing everything possible to have the lowest tax burden possible as long as you are staying within legal measures? Why have a mammoth, complex tax code, and then be mad at people who take the time to learn it?
 
2012-03-16 09:51:42 AM  

dumbobruni: EWreckedSean: I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"

almost all of these have not taken effect yet, the main exception being the tanning bed tax. and some of these taxes are meant to offset the tax credits for small businesses (ie job creators) that began in 2010.

to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous. it may start to increase soon, but an actual increase for now? no, unless you use tanning beds.

Link (new window)


I never suggested it has increased now. Actually I started my statement applauding the temporary tax measures Obama has taken. But it is a fair argument to look beyond just today. Long term his policies will result in net tax increases.
 
2012-03-16 09:54:57 AM  

EWreckedSean: The doctrine is incredibly vague, with no clear guidelines on when it will apply, and the government can in turn stack heavy penalties onto you if they decide you are violating it. Besides which, what exactly is wrong with doing everything possible to have the lowest tax burden possible as long as you are staying within legal measures?


But wouldn't the codification effectively no longer make a tax shelter for the sake of having a tax shelter no longer legal? That kind of blows that part out of the water. I'll agree on the guidelines part, though it seems pretty common sense when you look at the IRS guidance for compliance.
 
2012-03-16 09:55:14 AM  

Chimperror2: Sabyen91: Chimperror2: hey look! So did my income! Coincidence? Or is this part of the spinstragery?

Your income went down under Obama? Huh, that is weird. It is rare you actually LOSE wages.

It's called the economy, stupid. Contracting=lower taxes.

All those people that lost their jobs and then dropped off the rolls pay less taxes.then when they had jobs.

Obama Spin Machine: Look, we lowered taxes!



Lower taxes isn't the same as less people paying taxes, "stupid." I'm shocked you even put that down. You're your own little self-important spin machine, aren't you? Too bad people can, you know, read.
 
2012-03-16 09:56:47 AM  

Somacandra: And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.


From what I remember Democrats were saying high gas prices were being caused by speculators, and should be regulated, while Republicans were saying they were caused by supply and demand, and we needed to drill more to increase the supply. Interestingly, it did turn out that the high prices were caused by speculators, and not a lack of supply
 
2012-03-16 09:58:11 AM  

EWreckedSean: dumbobruni: EWreckedSean: I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"

almost all of these have not taken effect yet, the main exception being the tanning bed tax. and some of these taxes are meant to offset the tax credits for small businesses (ie job creators) that began in 2010.

to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous. it may start to increase soon, but an actual increase for now? no, unless you use tanning beds.

Link (new window)

I never suggested it has increased now. Actually I started my statement applauding the temporary tax measures Obama has taken. But it is a fair argument to look beyond just today. Long term his policies will result in net tax increases.


that's not the point of the thread here, its his policies to date.
 
2012-03-16 10:02:29 AM  

dumbobruni: Mearen: FirstNationalBastard: Stupid reality and its liberal bias.

My reality is that my taxes have increased. Who's biased again?

what kind of taxes increased for you?


My entire tax burden increased several thousand dollars. Since all commodities have increased, I pay more sales tax too.
 
2012-03-16 10:03:56 AM  

LasersHurt: I understand it is a weasel statement meant to avoid a real discussion about the subject (for whatever reason). That is the larger context.

Explain. I'm curious.


Generalizing a complicated issue with the word "taxes" to the point it is watered down so much that you can defend it is weaselly. Income taxes have not been touched even though the President has lobbied for them to change. He put in a temporary cut to payroll tax that affected a broad number of people, but was not much money. Is he counting regulations he signed into law too? They affect how much a person pays out to the government.

Has Obama raised some taxes? He sure has. Has there been an overall decrease for some people? Sure. It is easier to lump everything together into a pile like that and use it as a talking point than it is to address the specifics. Politicians do that all that time, and the current Administration is no exception.
 
2012-03-16 10:05:32 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: anunaki


For the life of me, I can't tell if you won the thread or not.

/how do the reptoids and the reverse vampires fit into all that?
 
2012-03-16 10:06:07 AM  

EWreckedSean: just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.


Ugh. Would you care to withdraw this comment? ...Or double down?
 
2012-03-16 10:08:06 AM  

Mearen: dumbobruni: Mearen: FirstNationalBastard: Stupid reality and its liberal bias.

My reality is that my taxes have increased. Who's biased again?

what kind of taxes increased for you?

My entire tax burden increased several thousand dollars. Since all commodities have increased, I pay more sales tax too.


Tee-Hee!

/No, I really tee-heed
 
2012-03-16 10:08:11 AM  
Did I hear Obama say "Drill Baby Drill" yesterday?
 
2012-03-16 10:08:26 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: From what I remember Democrats were saying high gas prices were being caused by speculators, and should be regulated, while Republicans were saying they were caused by supply and demand, and we needed to drill more to increase the supply. Interestingly, it did turn out that the high prices were caused by speculators, and not a lack of supply


How do you figure? The drop in gas prices corresponded with a huge downturn in global demand thanks to the recession. Demand has now risen to its previous levels and prices have spiked accordingly. Speculation does have some impact but it's hardly the primary driver.
 
2012-03-16 10:09:37 AM  

Shaggy_C: EWreckedSean: The doctrine is incredibly vague, with no clear guidelines on when it will apply, and the government can in turn stack heavy penalties onto you if they decide you are violating it. Besides which, what exactly is wrong with doing everything possible to have the lowest tax burden possible as long as you are staying within legal measures?

But wouldn't the codification effectively no longer make a tax shelter for the sake of having a tax shelter no longer legal? That kind of blows that part out of the water. I'll agree on the guidelines part, though it seems pretty common sense when you look at the IRS guidance for compliance.


What I am saying is that you can still do everything with your money you could before, now you just have to justify that you did it from the right reasons. That kind of wishy washy logic is dangerous at best, especially because if they decide you didn't do it for the right reason, they will hit you with a huge penalty. Which means even if you have a valid reason, you have to be afraid that they will judge otherwise.
 
2012-03-16 10:09:37 AM  

dumbobruni: EWreckedSean: dumbobruni: EWreckedSean: I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"

almost all of these have not taken effect yet, the main exception being the tanning bed tax. and some of these taxes are meant to offset the tax credits for small businesses (ie job creators) that began in 2010.

to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous. it may start to increase soon, but an actual increase for now? no, unless you use tanning beds.

Link (new window)

I never suggested it has increased now. Actually I started my statement applauding the temporary tax measures Obama has taken. But it is a fair argument to look beyond just today. Long term his policies will result in net tax increases.

that's not the point of the thread here, its his policies to date.


Oh, so other than his signature policy initiative, he hasn't raised taxes much. Just fees and penalties. Oh, and his platform consists of more and more and more taxes. So really, citizens, Obama is your fiscally constrained bestest friend.

Obama: Congress, raise taxes now!
Congress: Go fark yourself, have you looked at the U6 number lately?
Obama, turning to camera: See, people? I'm not the tax-and-spend liberal they pretend I am! I'm just a spender!
 
2012-03-16 10:10:35 AM  

dumbobruni: EWreckedSean: dumbobruni: EWreckedSean: I applaud Obama for the temporary tax measures he has put into place to help ease the recession or whatever you want to call what we have been in since 2008. However, while his tax cuts are temporary, the tax increases he has pushed through tend to be permanent. For example, just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

-- Individual Mandate Excise Tax
--Employer Mandate Excise Tax
-- Small business 1099-MISC Information Reporting
--Surtax on Investment Income
--Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
--Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
--Medicine Cabinet Tax
--HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
--Flexible Spending Account Cap - aka"Special Needs Kids Tax"
-- Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
-- "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
-- Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
-- Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage
-- Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
-- Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
-- Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
-- Tax on Health Insurers
-- Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike
-- Codification of the "economic substance doctrine"

almost all of these have not taken effect yet, the main exception being the tanning bed tax. and some of these taxes are meant to offset the tax credits for small businesses (ie job creators) that began in 2010.

to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous. it may start to increase soon, but an actual increase for now? no, unless you use tanning beds.

Link (new window)

I never suggested it has increased now. Actually I started my statement applauding the temporary tax measures Obama has taken. But it is a fair argument to look beyond just today. Long term his policies will result in net tax increases.

that's not the point of the thread here, its his policies to date.


No, the thread is about whether or not taxes have decreased under Obama. That is only true if you look short term.
 
2012-03-16 10:11:45 AM  

Crunch61: EWreckedSean: just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

Ugh. Would you care to withdraw this comment? ...Or double down?


Which of those do yo disagree with. Granted I grabbed it from a site, so I won't swear by it 100%, but I'll happily discuss any you disagree with.
 
2012-03-16 10:13:33 AM  

Shaggy_C: Tyrone Slothrop: From what I remember Democrats were saying high gas prices were being caused by speculators, and should be regulated, while Republicans were saying they were caused by supply and demand, and we needed to drill more to increase the supply. Interestingly, it did turn out that the high prices were caused by speculators, and not a lack of supply

How do you figure? The drop in gas prices corresponded with a huge downturn in global demand thanks to the recession. Demand has now risen to its previous levels and prices have spiked accordingly. Speculation does have some impact but it's hardly the primary driver.


Speculation actually was the primary driver back when gas spiked before the recession. At the time it was something crazy, like every barrel of gas was traded 30 times before it was sold.
 
2012-03-16 10:17:55 AM  
Garet Garrett:

You know how I can tell you're full of sh:t?
 
2012-03-16 10:26:42 AM  

EWreckedSean: Crunch61: EWreckedSean: just looking at Obamacare, you have the following permanent tax increases.

Ugh. Would you care to withdraw this comment? ...Or double down?

Which of those do yo disagree with. Granted I grabbed it from a site, so I won't swear by it 100%, but I'll happily discuss any you disagree with.


No need.

/For the record though, several aren't yet in effect, at least one is the elimination of a (non "Obamacare") tax-credit loophole, and several others are not "just looking at Obamacare" (ie. "Obamacare" related), as you would lead us to believe
 
2012-03-16 10:28:11 AM  
OK OK we get it. Obama cut taxes which lowered revenues.... so does that mean we can blame our ballooning deficit on him monw?
 
2012-03-16 10:30:21 AM  

somedude210: It's tough to listen to the pundits and the candidates this election without thinking "where's my voice?" "Where's my candidate?"

It seems as though we are witnessing a fight between the lesser of "who cares?" but it shouldn't be like that. We should not have candidates who run on lies and half-truths. We should not have candidates who speak for the powerful but do nothing for the common man. For it is far more disrespectful and disingenuous for a wealthy businessman to say that he knows the hardships of the poor. Just that it is too unfair to have a man who believes that we should be a Christian theocracy because God wills it. I don't know what God that man speaks to, but I know that he would be going against the founding principles of our country for which he says he loves so much.

Our two party system is broken. We have the party of the right wing and we have the party of the radical right wing. To those that seek social progress, and smaller governments, we have no voice. There is no moderate party anymore. There is no "Party of Lincoln" or "Party of Roosevelt" just the "Party of me." And I don't know about you, but there is more to this country than one man's beliefs and one man's set of ideals.

What we need is a party that looks to at all views on a subject, that can take a situation and look for the best solution. We don't have that anymore, it's either one party's system or the other with no compromise, no looking for another alternative. We need to fix that. We need a party that solves the issues plaguing this country with logic and reason.

These solutions won't fix it overnight but that's the mindset we need to stop having. We can't keep doing quick-fixes on issues and expect it to be solved. We need to look at long-term impacts and fix it with long-term solutions.


Both parties are the same so vote Republican.

Variants:

...so don't vote.
...so waste your vote on whoever the Green Party nominates.

The Democratic Party is not right wing in any sense whatsoever. Stop saying that. They may not be the most socialist socialists who evered socialist, but they are definitely left of center, especially compared to the average American voter.
 
2012-03-16 10:32:54 AM  

dumbobruni: to claim that your federal tax burden has increased under Obama is disengenuous.


For example, EWreckedSean's quoting of a "Biofuel "black liquor" tax hike" is particularly disengenuous when you read the wikipedia version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liquor#U.S._tax_credit_2007_-_2010

Because removing a tax credit is also know as a tax hike.
 
2012-03-16 10:40:02 AM  

Mearen: My entire tax burden increased several thousand dollars.


Mine too. It's Obama's fault my income went up, that son of a biatch.
 
2012-03-16 10:54:18 AM  

Saiga410: OK OK we get it. Obama cut taxes which lowered revenues.... so does that mean we can blame our ballooning deficit on him monw?


Are you admitting that the Bush tax cuts, since they were first enacted in 2001, are responsible for a drastic drop in revenues and therefore a drastic increase in the deficit and the debt?
 
2012-03-16 11:03:44 AM  

Somacandra: Facts for many people are derived from values, rather than the other way around. People need their values on a day to day basis more than they encounter factual abstractions. It may suck, but its still the case. Now having read the original article (new window), I agree that this confusion of facts and opinions is a big problem, especially among the batshiat-crazy reactionaries who see no difference between the two at all. However, when it comes to the specific issue of taxation, it should be pointed out that the TeaBagger/Republican mantra has been about long term middle class tax burdens with these higher debts much more than immediate middle class tax burden. Whether you interpret the question as short-term or long-term makes a difference, and perhaps a reasonable one at that. And I'm sure that when we had very high gas prices under Mr. Bush, Democrats would have said that he should have been able to control gas prices too, just as Republicans are saying under Mr. Obama.


Hasn't it been shown with some cognitive studies that people who lean further to the right in terms of politics, especially when they are social conservative, are much much worse at doing long-term cost/benefit type analyses intuitively.

And of course that isn't even considering that the reality isn't about middle-class tax burden. The rich bastards running the Republican show have been the ones dumping increasing tax burdens on the middle-class and alleviating the comparative tax burden of the rich for decades. And will continue to do so.
 
2012-03-16 11:09:28 AM  

Mearen: FirstNationalBastard: Stupid reality and its liberal bias.

My reality is that my taxes have increased. Who's biased again?


Congratulations. I wish I were in a position that my taxes went up.
 
2012-03-16 11:10:54 AM  

Rapmaster2000: [encrypted-tbn1.google.com image 259x194]

Meanwhile, at Free Republic.


encrypted-tbn1.google.com


CapnBlues: [i195.photobucket.com image 272x165]


i195.photobucket.com

img51.imageshack.us
 
2012-03-16 11:12:15 AM  

LewDux: LewDux: Obama ΞΞΞΞΞΞ ★ Black Communist


Made Joke
Improved joke

vs

Speculated
Created fuss
 
2012-03-16 11:18:16 AM  
Wow, the story would have been nice with some citations, more graphs instead of the poll results. I believe taxes have gone down, it's actually been said all along, even by Conservatives with a functioning brain. Problem is that this story proves nothing except the results of a poll. VERY poorly done.
 
2012-03-16 11:19:08 AM  

qorkfiend: Saiga410: OK OK we get it. Obama cut taxes which lowered revenues.... so does that mean we can blame our ballooning deficit on him monw?

Are you admitting that the Bush tax cuts, since they were first enacted in 2001, are responsible for a drastic drop in revenues and therefore a drastic increase in the deficit and the debt?


obamaletdownwatch.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-03-16 11:26:31 AM  

LewDux: Rapmaster2000: [encrypted-tbn1.google.com image 259x194]

Meanwhile, at Free Republic.

[encrypted-tbn1.google.com image 259x194]


CapnBlues: [i195.photobucket.com image 272x165]

[i195.photobucket.com image 272x165]

[img51.imageshack.us image 259x194]


rofl. thank you for that. it is friday, after all. :)
 
2012-03-16 12:01:06 PM  

qorkfiend: Saiga410: OK OK we get it. Obama cut taxes which lowered revenues.... so does that mean we can blame our ballooning deficit on him monw?

Are you admitting that the Bush tax cuts, since they were first enacted in 2001, are responsible for a drastic drop in revenues and therefore a drastic increase in the deficit and the debt?


Yes. I have been calling for their repeal sence 05-06 (the year that I got back into politics and started to pay attention again.)
 
2012-03-16 02:20:42 PM  

Shaggy_C: The drop in gas prices corresponded with a huge downturn in global demand thanks to the recession.


I could buy that explanation if it weren't for the fact that gas prices started climbing back up in early 2009, when the economy was still awful. 1Q-2Q2009 was still a recession (negative GDP growth) yet gas prices rose around 60%.
 
2012-03-17 10:28:25 AM  
of course taxes are going to decrease, when ain't be nobody gots a job to pay taxes.
 
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