They know there's a pot of gold for them. All they got to do is just believe.

/they're so happy

"Kenneth, what is the frequency?"

moanerific: HELLO, WORLD!

Thought the same; was glad to be wrong.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: "We apologize for the inconvenience."

Dammit! That was my guess.

"So long and thanks for all the fish"?

Now for a groovy tuney version that will be stuck in your head for the rest of the day

The best part of the movie (new window)

DON'T PANIC

jfarkinB: You can't focus them, or even emit them preferentially in a particular direction

Sure you can - you just do what FNAL did. proton beam on a fixed target which will produce lots of charged pions. These will decay in flight, producing a neutrino moving in very close to the same direction as the pion and initial proton.
The problem really is that one needs to start with a rather large accelerator to make the proton beam... As far as I can tell, all these guys did was turn the proton beam on and off in bursts to signal 0's and 1's...
cheers

way south: I_C_Weener: Finding the Meaning: "Watson, come here, I need you"?

That was my guess.

Mine too.

Moreover tho, they didn't say how fast the message was received.

/Altho technically a neutrino communication system would be faster than light.

Umm no, at least not with our current understanding. Right now, all we know is neutrinos travel at the speed of light. A message transmitted at the speed of light from point A to point B on Earth using neutrinos would arrive faster than using speed of light communications using satellites due to the extra distance required to travel.

The fact they did not release how long it took to receive the message probably means it took significantly longer than a message sent through normal methods. But it's a good first step and pretty impressive given that neutrinos are hard to detect.

10 HOME
20 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
30 END

jfarkinB: Oh, it's ever so much worse than that. You can't focus them, or even emit them preferentially in a particular direction, so no "beams" or "antennas". You can only broadcast, the transmitter is a nuclear reactor or particle accelerator, and the detector is a cave full of money.


On the detector you're correct, but I was under the impression that methods for directional beams of neutrinos had indeed been discovered.

Some particle accelerators have been used to make neutrino beams. The technique is to smash protons into a fixed target, producing charged pions or kaons. These unstable particles are then magnetically focused into a long tunnel where they decay while in flight. Because of the relativistic boost of the decaying particle the neutrinos are produced as a beam rather than isotropically.

And a more detailed description here.


way south: /Altho technically a neutrino communication system would be faster than light.


No, it would be light speed. We still haven't been able to break that barrier. That experiment last year that seemed to do it with neutrinos turned out to be an equipment issue.

Light speed communications that travel straight through the planet would still be pretty advantageous though. It's the detection of them that's the problem currently, because the detector is going to need to be very specialized, expensive, totally immobile (a cave) and underground.... and considering how little interaction neutrinos have with any matter, that is unlikely to change any time soon, if ever.

They buried the headline. According to the article neutrinos are unaffected by gravity. THAT is the real story.

They sent an encoded FLV message about how the scientists would never give up on the project, how they would never let down their grantors, and how they wouldn't take multiple sabbaticals, harming their progress.

I_C_Weener: Finding the Meaning: "Watson, come here, I need you"?

That was my guess.

And mine

/240 meters of stone? sounds cool
//off to RTA

MindStalker: You'd have to find some super dense material that will catch a good percent of them. Said material possibly will never exist outside a black hole.

We could use any number of female GOP party members.
They're about as dense as you can get.

trapped in a neutrino factory please send help

doglover: JamesWhitsun: "Using neutrinos, it would be possible to communicate between any two points on Earth without using satellites or cables," says Dan Stancil, professor of electrical and computer engineering at North Carolina State University.

We can do that now. It's called "radio". Been around for what, over 100 years now?


Radio can only travel the surface, and anyone could intercept it till it hit something and bounced. A neutrino system would be able to blast THROUGH anything on the planet and the only way to snoop it would be to build a detector directly in the path of that particular communication.

Good for communicating with nuke sights and other things in the event of the Apocalypse starting and needing to win initiative. Too Rube Goldberg for anything else.

1. Since the overwhelming majority of people and equipment have access to the surface, this isn't much of a problem.

2. Anyone can intercept a neutrino system. Beamwidth on it won't be *TOO* tight, because you'd have to account for positional errors. All you'd really need is a bunch of neutrino-collectin' satellites in orbit.

3. Having said that, being able to intercept a communication is different from being able to exploit it. You have to assume the other side can hear it, so no matter whether it is radio or neutrino based, you're going to want to encrypt it.

4. We actually use VLF and below radio to communicate with submerged submarines anywhere in the World.

So how long before this technology is used for porn?

mongbiohazard: jfarkinB: Oh, it's ever so much worse than that. You can't focus them, or even emit them preferentially in a particular direction, so no "beams" or "antennas". You can only broadcast, the transmitter is a nuclear reactor or particle accelerator, and the detector is a cave full of money.


On the detector you're correct, but I was under the impression that methods for directional beams of neutrinos had indeed been discovered.

Some particle accelerators have been used to make neutrino beams. The technique is to smash protons into a fixed target, producing charged pions or kaons. These unstable particles are then magnetically focused into a long tunnel where they decay while in flight. Because of the relativistic boost of the decaying particle the neutrinos are produced as a beam rather than isotropically.

And a more detailed description here.


way south: /Altho technically a neutrino communication system would be faster than light.


No, it would be light speed. We still haven't been able to break that barrier. That experiment last year that seemed to do it with neutrinos turned out to be an equipment issue.

Light speed communications that travel straight through the planet would still be pretty advantageous though. It's the detection of them that's the problem currently, because the detector is going to need to be very specialized, expensive, totally immobile (a cave) and underground.... and considering how little interaction neutrinos have with any matter, that is unlikely to change any time soon, if ever.

Going through the planet instead of around it is why they would be faster.
It's a victory of geometry rather than being proper ftl.

That said, it would also be useful in space since dust, gas, and other things couldn't interfere. But that depends on figuring out a better way to detect neutrinos.

"Press 1 for English"

Can a neutrino have a message of it's own?

A little neutrino's message (new window)

GoodyearPimp: All these worlds are yours, except Europa. Attempt no landings there.

Really, I had to be the first?

I came here expecting it to be a top 5 comment. Fark, I am disappoint.

doglover: JamesWhitsun: "Using neutrinos, it would be possible to communicate between any two points on Earth without using satellites or cables," says Dan Stancil, professor of electrical and computer engineering at North Carolina State University.

We can do that now. It's called "radio". Been around for what, over 100 years now?


Radio can only travel the surface, and anyone could intercept it till it hit something and bounced. A neutrino system would be able to blast THROUGH anything on the planet and the only way to snoop it would be to build a detector directly in the path of that particular communication.

Good for communicating with nuke sights and other things in the event of the Apocalypse starting and needing to win initiative. Too Rube Goldberg for anything else.

I don't know. Something like this could really help the Australians who play online games and stuff, they're kinda screwed by physics when it comes to ping times to any other English speaking country.

We don't allow faster than light neutrinos in here, said the bartender. A neutrino walks into a bar.

Interesting. The article talks about the strategic uses of this type of communication for a few paragraphs before dropping this key tidbit:

The message consisted of the word 'Neutrino' in binary format. The neutrinos needed to be fired in large groups, because they're so hard to spot that, even with a multi-ton detector, only about one in ten billion is detected.

Somehow, I think that either is going to translate into easily intercepted messages or many garbled messages relaying incomplete information. Cool concept, but that seems like a pretty big complication to overcome before this has any real strategic use, like for submarines or messaging the space station.

mongbiohazard: No, it would be light speed. We still haven't been able to break that barrier. That experiment last year that seemed to do it with neutrinos turned out to be an equipment issue.

It may have been an equipment issue, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. Opera is rerunning the experiment.

jepzilla: Opera is rerunning the experiment.

that sounds like it could be a real epic

way south: Going through the planet instead of around it is why they would be faster.
It's a victory of geometry rather than being proper ftl.

This isn't really a significant advantage. Take two signals, a VLF signal that travels as a surface wave on the Earth, and a neutrino beam that travels through instead. We have to stations at antipodes, A and B. The Earth has a mean radius of 6,371 kilometers, so we'll put the diameter at twice that, 12,742km The path a surface radio signal will have to travel is the same as one half the circumference of the Earth, which at Pi*D is 40,030km, so distance is 20,015km. At the speed of light (roughly 299,800 kilometers a second), it will take 12742/299800*1000 = 43 milliseconds for the neutrino signal to reach B from A, and 20,015/299800*1000 = 67 milliseconds for the radio signal to get there.

You've saved all of 24 milliseconds.

That said, it would also be useful in space since dust, gas, and other things couldn't interfere. But that depends on figuring out a better way to detect neutrinos.

Radio signals travel exceptionally well in space, and are easier to generate and detect by a few orders of magnitude.

Having said all that, it's a pretty neat accomplishment. I hope they keep working on it.

way south: Going through the planet instead of around it is why they would be faster.
It's a victory of geometry rather than being proper ftl.


Yeah, like I said, it would still be a bit advantageous... though not necessarily paradigm shifting or anything per se outside of for a few very limited applications. I mean, sure it would be faster than fiberoptics or satellite communications, but our planet is only so big and current methods are already pretty fast so the increase in speed might not be worth the disadvantages or extra cost.

For submarines it would be great though. Those guys would get a game changer.


That said, it would also be useful in space since dust, gas, and other things couldn't interfere. But that depends on figuring out a better way to detect neutrinos.

Yeah, I don't see space ships dragging around a huge tank of water the size of a 10 story building as being particularly practical.

mongbiohazard: Yeah, I don't see space ships dragging around a huge tank of water the size of a 10 story building as being particularly practical.

It could be, you never know when you have to travel back in time to save a pair of whales.

loonatic112358: mongbiohazard: Yeah, I don't see space ships dragging around a huge tank of water the size of a 10 story building as being particularly practical.

It could be, you never know when you have to travel back in time to save a pair of whales.


+1 internets to you sir!

Nuts

HotWingConspiracy: Be sure to drink your Ovaltine?

That's my guess.

Purple-monkey-dishwasher

mongbiohazard: Yeah, I don't see space ships dragging around a huge tank of water the size of a 10 story building as being particularly practical.

Its early still.
They might find a material or related particle that is sensitive to neutrinos and makes them easier to detect. Now that they've proven the idea is possible, they just need a better method.

In the back of my head I'm still thinking about SETI and its lack of progress. My personal belief is that Aliens, if they are communicating between planets, would be using something more better than radio.

An uninterrupted stream of neutrinos being tight beamed at speeds near or possibly faster than light?
That would fit the bill nicely.

mongbiohazard: For submarines it would be great though. Those guys would get a game changer.

I don't think so. We can already communicate with them at depth via VLF and ELF radio. Plus, this method has little advantage: Since the very nature of an independent naval vessel is such that you won't always know where it is, your "beamwidth" is going to have to be fairly wide for them to detect the signal. That will make it easier to intercept, so it doesn't have the advantage of being secure.

Another possible problem: Interference from the boat's reactor, a neutrino source, swamping the detector.

This actually gives me an idea. If you could get the detector down to a reasonable size and sensitivity, and if you could tell which direction the neutrinos are coming from with any degree of accuracy, you could set up a series of them and you'd be able to locate every working nuclear reactor, which means you'd be able to track every farking nuclear submarine in the World. You wouldn't be able to hid anymore.

/I'm sure someone has already thought of it.

JamesWhitsun: This actually gives me an idea.

neat idea - but your signal/background would be ~zero - you'd be swamped by solar neutrinos, neutrinos from the in-flight decay of cosmic muons... cheers

way south: mongbiohazard: Yeah, I don't see space ships dragging around a huge tank of water the size of a 10 story building as being particularly practical.

Its early still.
They might find a material or related particle that is sensitive to neutrinos and makes them easier to detect. Now that they've proven the idea is possible, they just need a better method.

I still think the suggestion for Republican Female voters might work, that is some pretty dense material.

In the back of my head I'm still thinking about SETI and its lack of progress. My personal belief is that Aliens, if they are communicating between planets, would be using something more better than radio.

Perhaps SETI should setup one of these detectors and look for signals from other stars using it then... or co-op this current detector to look outwards too.

JamesWhitsun: This actually gives me an idea. If you could get the detector down to a reasonable size and sensitivity, and if you could tell which direction the neutrinos are coming from with any degree of accuracy, you could set up a series of them and you'd be able to locate every working nuclear reactor, which means you'd be able to track every farking nuclear submarine in the World. You wouldn't be able to hid anymore.

/I'm sure someone has already thought of it.

Or rogue nuclear plants... thinking like locating Iran's shiat, or anyone's for that matter that was undeclared.

The safest rule
No ifs or buts
Just drive
Like every one else
Is nuts!
Burma-Shave

So Long and Thanks For All the Fish

"BABABOOEY BABABOOEY BABABOOEY HOWARD STERN'S PENIS BABABOOEY BABABOOEY BABABOOEY"??

Oh wait, scientists? Then it was definitely something in binary and/or Klingon.

wjllope: JamesWhitsun: This actually gives me an idea.

neat idea - but your signal/background would be ~zero - you'd be swamped by solar neutrinos, neutrinos from the in-flight decay of cosmic muons... cheers

It wouldn't necessarily be that bad. With a bunch of widely separated detectors that can tell what direction the individual neutrinos are coming in from, you can build up a statistical model of all the sources. There will be random events that aren't related that will look like they are coming from a point source on Earth, but they won't stay there. It would look like a nuclear reactor "popped" into existence during whatever time slice the detector uses, and "popped" right out again. You can ignore those and concentrate on the point sources on or near the Earth's surface.

Of course, that relies on a directional neutrino detector, and there would be some major computer processing necessary, but I can't think of a technical reason why it couldn't be done.

If my understanding is correct, the receiving station would wait until they correctly received a zero or one, then sent an ack signal (presumably by standard methods), alerting the neutrino station to send the next bit. I'm not sure how that would make anything more efficient.

JamesWhitsun: wjllope: JamesWhitsun: This actually gives me an idea.

neat idea - but your signal/background would be ~zero - you'd be swamped by solar neutrinos, neutrinos from the in-flight decay of cosmic muons... cheers

It wouldn't necessarily be that bad. With a bunch of widely separated detectors that can tell what direction the individual neutrinos are coming in from, you can build up a statistical model of all the sources. There will be random events that aren't related that will look like they are coming from a point source on Earth, but they won't stay there. It would look like a nuclear reactor "popped" into existence during whatever time slice the detector uses, and "popped" right out again. You can ignore those and concentrate on the point sources on or near the Earth's surface.

Of course, that relies on a directional neutrino detector, and there would be some major computer processing necessary, but I can't think of a technical reason why it couldn't be done.

IIRC, a recent episode of NOVA, focused on vulcanology, featured a scientist who is doing exactly that in order to map the interior of volcanoes. He has a series of small neutrino detectors arranged around a volcano, and after several months of correlating detection events, is somehow able to map density differences inside the volcano to produce a crude 3D map of the caldera and internal tubes and chambers.

BTW, "What Hath God Wrought" was my guess.