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(Fox News)   The UN Human Rights Council has finally moved into action, and decided to tackle the worst ongoing human rights violation they could possibly find: US voter I.D. laws   (foxnews.com) divider line 486
    More: Asinine, Human Rights Council, rapes, United Nations Human Rights, United States, American Election, Spakovsky, minority rights, electoral system  
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1337 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Mar 2012 at 8:19 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-15 11:37:29 AM

Wicked Chinchilla: kingoomieiii: redmid17: Social Security cards are free

-Given to babies
-Small
-Made of thin, flismy card stock
-Specific instructions not to laminate

It's like they WANT you to have to get a new one at some point.

Mine is laminated and anyone who says i am not supposed to can suck themselves off. My parents laminated that sucker within weeks of me being born and its never been considered invalid. I have never understood why that instruction is on there when its made of plain old paper that is so easily dissolved, torn, scraped, scuffed, etc.


SSA (new window)

"No it is not illegal, but it's best not to laminate your card. Laminated cards make it difficult, if not impossible, to detect important security features and an employer may refuse to accept it."
 
2012-03-15 11:37:48 AM

socodog: You want to help decide who is in charge but cannot be bothered to obtain a state ID? I don't think so. Last I heard "people with no state ID " is not a protected class. I've known plenty of dirt poor people who had an ID.


Except the issue is not one pertaining to the protected class prong of the equal protection clause; it pertains rather to the fundamental rights prong.

/GED in law?
 
2012-03-15 11:45:22 AM

Dwight_Yeast: That's true, and when I do to the polls, I verify that I am who I am by signing in. The polls workers watch me do this and have my signature on file. If it doesn't match, I don't get to vote.

Why is there any need for anything more than this?



They did a lot of verification with signatures in the past since photo id's were expensive. I opened my first bank account when I was 7 with a signature card at a rinky-dink 1 branch local bank. Within a few years they would give me a hard time because my signature didn't match because my handwriting had changed. Soon after they decided there was a better, more secure way and issued photo id's.

Almost everyone has moved away from signatures only, because there is a better way, why not protect the integrity of our voting system like we protect a gym membership?
 
2012-03-15 11:46:02 AM

Wendy's Chili: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.

It's just a patriotic obstacle for poor people to overcome in order to vote, and if they don't want their children to go without in order to go to the polls they're not real Americans anyway, right?


the discussion was whether it is prohibited under the poll tax laws. I've already said quite clearly that I don't favor voter ID laws as they seem unnecessary. Grow up.
 
2012-03-15 11:46:38 AM

qorkfiend: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.

It could be covered under the "substantial burden" position (Tennessee used to have a law requiring residence for one year before an election; SCOTUS struck it down on the grounds that it imposed a substantial burden on a citizen, but I can't find the case right at the moment), but probably not; it looks like the SCOTUS has upheld ID requirements in some states. Here we go: Crawford v. Marion County Election Board (new window)


that has more potential
 
2012-03-15 11:47:17 AM

fracto73: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.


What are the requirements to get the ID? Are those also available for free?


dunno. Proof of residency. Birf Certificat?
 
2012-03-15 11:48:49 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Almost everyone has moved away from signatures only, because there is a better way, why not protect the integrity of our voting system like we protect a gym membership?


Because that's not what this is about.
 
2012-03-15 11:51:10 AM

socodog: How the fark are those people functioning otherwise? How are they taking part in society at all without ID? November 2 is not a secret. If your ass cannot make it to the DMV ONCE in the 2 year election cycle then you are not trying.


Lots of old people especially blacks never got a birth certificate because they were born at home. It's a hell of a lot harder for them than a trip to the DMV.
 
2012-03-15 11:51:27 AM

skullkrusher: fracto73: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.


What are the requirements to get the ID? Are those also available for free?

dunno. Proof of residency. Birf Certificat?



Birth Certificates aren't generally free and can be a hassle to get.

Even if you do get it Republicans will insist you were born in Kenya.
 
2012-03-15 11:53:04 AM

fracto73: Even if you do get it Republicans will insist you were born in Kenya.


Kenyans are people too, man.
 
2012-03-15 11:54:35 AM

DrewCurtisJr: Almost everyone has moved away from signatures only, because there is a better way, why not protect the integrity of our voting system like we protect a gym membership?


Because, as we've covered here seventeen times, there's no factual indication that our system is suffering any fraud which can be remedied by forcing people to have photo IDs.

DrewCurtisJr: They did a lot of verification with signatures in the past since photo id's were expensive. I opened my first bank account when I was 7 with a signature card at a rinky-dink 1 branch local bank. Within a few years they would give me a hard time because my signature didn't match because my handwriting had changed.


The signature they have on file for me is the one that I submitted when I registered at 18. I don't have any trouble matching it and I submitted it 24 years ago.
 
2012-03-15 11:54:43 AM

skullkrusher: fracto73: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.


What are the requirements to get the ID? Are those also available for free?

dunno. Proof of residency. Birf Certificat?


In NY I needed like 80 pieces of documentation to get my valid MA licence switched over, 9/11 changed everything.
 
2012-03-15 11:55:47 AM

Headso: skullkrusher: fracto73: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.


What are the requirements to get the ID? Are those also available for free?

dunno. Proof of residency. Birf Certificat?

In NY I needed like 80 pieces of documentation to get my valid MA licence switched over, 9/11 changed everything.


to be fair, you're a shady mofo
 
2012-03-15 11:56:00 AM

skullkrusher: fracto73: Even if you do get it Republicans will insist you were born in Kenya.

Kenyans are people too, man.



That's how I know you aren't a Republican :)
 
2012-03-15 11:56:46 AM

qorkfiend: It could be covered under the "substantial burden" position (Tennessee used to have a law requiring residence for one year before an election; SCOTUS struck it down on the grounds that it imposed a substantial burden on a citizen, but I can't find the case right at the moment),


Dunn v. Blumstein 405 U.S. 330 (1972) Link (new window)

One of the more damning precedents against this whole idea.
 
2012-03-15 12:00:02 PM

Silverstaff: One of the more damning precedents against this whole idea.


So we're going to have to spent a shiatload of money fighting these various laws in the courts even though they're clearly unconstitutional.

The party of Small Government strikes again!
 
2012-03-15 12:01:33 PM

skullkrusher: Birf Certificat



Also, when I read this I couldn't help picture Will Smith punching a baby and saying, "Welcome to Birf"
 
2012-03-15 12:03:23 PM

sdd2000: What happens if they are in college and has no car and no perceived need for a drivers license?


if you are only there for college and don't live there year round, you aren't a resident.


kingoomieiii: liam76: If he is there as a student and keeps residency in his "home state" he doesn't get to vote locally.

That sounds like a very effective way to make it harder for college kids to vote for democrats


Why can't the college kids vote back home?



Wendy's Chili: liam76: Wendy's Chili: liam76: If he lives there, as a resident, he has to get an ID there.

No, he doesn't.

BasWho should I trust on this. My experience moving from around in the US. The Texas DMV website. Or some random girl on the internet?

Wendy's Chili is a fast food item, not a girl.

And it doesn't matter what the DMV says, you don't need an ID to live somewhere


I never said need an ID to live somewhere. You don't vote based on where you live, but based on where you have legal residency.
 
2012-03-15 12:03:26 PM

Dwight_Yeast: The signature they have on file for me is the one that I submitted when I registered at 18. I don't have any trouble matching it and I submitted it 24 years ago.


What happens when you get arthritis?

Because, as we've covered here seventeen times, there's no factual indication that our system is suffering any fraud which can be remedied by forcing people to have photo IDs.

They are an improvement in verify identify. As long as they don't suppress voter turnout, what's the problem?
 
2012-03-15 12:05:19 PM
I wonder why they aren't taking the UK to task for this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11312362
 
2012-03-15 12:06:35 PM

DrewCurtisJr: As long as they don't suppress voter turnout


That's EXACTLY what's it's going to do.

That's why I have a problem.
 
2012-03-15 12:11:03 PM

Dwight_Yeast: That's EXACTLY what's it's going to do.


Well then there are plenty of special interest groups who can present evidence of this in federal court and have the laws modified.
 
2012-03-15 12:12:17 PM

Silverstaff: qorkfiend: It could be covered under the "substantial burden" position (Tennessee used to have a law requiring residence for one year before an election; SCOTUS struck it down on the grounds that it imposed a substantial burden on a citizen, but I can't find the case right at the moment),

Dunn v. Blumstein 405 U.S. 330 (1972) Link (new window)

One of the more damning precedents against this whole idea.


SCOTUS already upheld a Voter ID requirement if certain stipulations were given. That happened almost 4 years ago.
 
2012-03-15 12:12:38 PM

skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.

It's just a patriotic obstacle for poor people to overcome in order to vote, and if they don't want their children to go without in order to go to the polls they're not real Americans anyway, right?

the discussion was whether it is prohibited under the poll tax laws. I've already said quite clearly that I don't favor voter ID laws as they seem unnecessary. Grow up.


Oh, forgive me for not keeping a notebook of everything skullkrusher has said quite clearly.


shiat. That was sarcasm again, wasn't it? Sorry if it wounded you.
 
2012-03-15 12:13:27 PM

DrewCurtisJr: As long as they don't suppress voter turnout


If that wasn't the primary purpose the GOP would not be championing it as part of their agenda. Does anyone seriously believe they take this issue up out of noble belief to preserve democracy?
 
2012-03-15 12:14:07 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Well then there are plenty of special interest groups who can present evidence of this in federal court and have the laws modified.


...or, you know, our state legislators could stop passing patently unconstitutional laws for no reason other than to disenfranchise voters.
 
2012-03-15 12:14:17 PM

fracto73: skullkrusher: Birf Certificat


Also, when I read this I couldn't help picture Will Smith punching a baby and saying, "Welcome to Birf"


www.zbrushcentral.com

I can haz natural born citizenship?
 
2012-03-15 12:14:29 PM

Skleenar: This voter ID law strategy is just the GOP's way to fight back against the way Democrats win elections, which is to convince poor people and minorities to vote for them.


You are being sarcastic, aren't you?
 
2012-03-15 12:15:02 PM

Wendy's Chili: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.

It's just a patriotic obstacle for poor people to overcome in order to vote, and if they don't want their children to go without in order to go to the polls they're not real Americans anyway, right?

the discussion was whether it is prohibited under the poll tax laws. I've already said quite clearly that I don't favor voter ID laws as they seem unnecessary. Grow up.

Oh, forgive me for not keeping a notebook of everything skullkrusher has said quite clearly.


shiat. That was sarcasm again, wasn't it? Sorry if it wounded you.


no, instead you should make stupid assumptions in the absence of your notebook.
 
2012-03-15 12:17:45 PM

Dwight_Yeast: way south: Everyone is trying to game the system. By using or not using cards, by carving up districts, by offering free rides to the polls or calling up potential voters on the day of the event.

Those are all perfectly legal and forcing people to get photo IDs will do nothing to prevent them.

Here in Philly, the ward leaders get a lot of walking around money on election day to get people to the polls and other things, and I expect some people get cash to vote, but they're all legally-registered voters.

And we're completely ignoring the greatest source of voter fraud: manipulating the voter tallies AFTER the votes have been cast and working to throw out your opponents' votes.


Better documentation would help prevent that, IF it is not a hindrance to turnout.
It's just human nature to jimmy the system, and not a long hop from there to outright cheating.
Efficient documentation limits the opportunity for screwing with the vote before and after the polls are taken.

I'm not saying we should give either party what they want, but that we can do better to put everyone's minds at ease.
 
2012-03-15 12:19:56 PM

fracto73: skullkrusher: fracto73: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.


What are the requirements to get the ID? Are those also available for free?

dunno. Proof of residency. Birf Certificat?


Birth Certificates aren't generally free and can be a hassle to get.

Even if you do get it Republicans will insist you were born in Kenya.


And proof of residency excludes homeless people.
 
2012-03-15 12:22:45 PM
Well maybe our fascist party (R) should stop trying to deny people the right to vote and maybe our conservative party (D) can actually put in an effort to stop the fascist party's deplorable actions if they won't.
 
2012-03-15 12:24:57 PM

liam76: I never said need an ID to live somewhere. You don't vote based on where you live, but based on where you have legal residency.


And under Texas law (and many other states), students have the right to choose their residency (parent's house or school address) whether or not they choose to drive a car. The DMV has nothing to do with voting or establishing residency.
 
2012-03-15 12:27:02 PM

m2313: Well maybe our fascist party (R) should stop trying to deny people the right to vote and maybe our conservative party (D) can actually put in an effort to stop the fascist party's deplorable actions if they won't.


There aren't many courses of action available for the Democratic members of the legislatures that are passing these laws.
 
2012-03-15 12:28:04 PM

skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.

It's just a patriotic obstacle for poor people to overcome in order to vote, and if they don't want their children to go without in order to go to the polls they're not real Americans anyway, right?

the discussion was whether it is prohibited under the poll tax laws. I've already said quite clearly that I don't favor voter ID laws as they seem unnecessary. Grow up.

Oh, forgive me for not keeping a notebook of everything skullkrusher has said quite clearly.


shiat. That was sarcasm again, wasn't it? Sorry if it wounded you.

no, instead you should make stupid assumptions in the absence of your notebook.


Yes, it was so stupid of me to assume the sometimes-conservative, sometimes-liberal skullkrusher was arguing in favor of a policy when his post was arguing in favor of that policy.

I'm such a dummy.
 
2012-03-15 12:28:48 PM

way south: Efficient documentation limits the opportunity for screwing with the vote before and after the polls are taken.


Have you actually looked at what they're requiring? You have to show a photo ID to vote, but they don't record it. There's no more "documentation" than there is under the current system.

And as for "jimmying" the system, there's nothing to stop people from showing a fake ID to vote; the Chinese are producing excellent counterfeit American state IDs with the holograms and everything.
 
2012-03-15 12:30:29 PM

Wendy's Chili: Yes, it was so stupid of me to assume the sometimes-conservative, sometimes-liberal skullkrusher was arguing in favor of a policy when his post was arguing in favor of that policy.


Just do what I did a long time ago: assume he's a troll and ignore him.

/if he's not a troll, he's completely insane.
 
2012-03-15 12:31:15 PM

Wendy's Chili: Yes, it was so stupid of me to assume the sometimes-conservative, sometimes-liberal skullkrusher was arguing in favor of a policy when his post was arguing in favor of that policy.


no, it wasn't, but yes, it was stupid to assume.
 
2012-03-15 12:31:40 PM
An ID in Texas expires once every 4 years. You would have to be under Mogadishu levels of poverty not to be able to afford the $20 it costs every 4 years to handle up on an ID. A person that cannot afford an ID and is so GD busy that they can't take a day off in 4 years is such a weird statistical outlier. Straw man much?

The CHL here is an extremely hard to forge card that's built with as many safe guards as a driver's license. College ID's I've seen here range from nicely made ones to cheap shiat cards that are printed and laminated. That is probably why the state in question doesn't take college ID's but does take CHL.

If people are really so very worried about it, they should organize rallies to get people valid ID's and voter registration.
 
2012-03-15 12:31:48 PM

Dwight_Yeast: ...or, you know, our state legislators could stop passing patently unconstitutional laws for no reason other than to disenfranchise voters.


The Indiana photo ID law had its day in court and was upheld.
 
2012-03-15 12:32:35 PM
Step 1: Neuter non-profit organizations that help people register and vote.
Step 2: Enact legislation to make it more cumbersome to vote and to register.
Step 3: Play dumb and vote Republican
 
2012-03-15 12:33:58 PM

lennavan: fracto73: skullkrusher: fracto73: skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: So we're just recycling arguments now?

Read the thread for several rebuttals.

the ones I see revolve around the difficulty min wage employees might have in getting to the DMV. I don't think that is covered under the prohibition against poll taxes.


What are the requirements to get the ID? Are those also available for free?

dunno. Proof of residency. Birf Certificat?


Birth Certificates aren't generally free and can be a hassle to get.

Even if you do get it Republicans will insist you were born in Kenya.

And proof of residency excludes homeless people.


There are procedures for currently allowing homeless people to vote. Current voter registration laws do require you to somehow prove you are eligible to vote in that area.
 
2012-03-15 12:34:54 PM

Thorndyke Barnhard: Step 1: Neuter non-profit organizations that help people register and vote.


Oh, I suppose you're prefer we just give them free birth control, eh? :)
 
2012-03-15 12:36:14 PM

socodog: If people are really so very worried about it, they should organize rallies to get people valid ID's and voter registration.



Republicans would take action against any organisation that tried to help the people they were disenfranchising. They would discredit it and accuse it of helping people vote fraudulently.
 
2012-03-15 12:38:22 PM

skullkrusher: Wendy's Chili: Yes, it was so stupid of me to assume the sometimes-conservative, sometimes-liberal skullkrusher was arguing in favor of a policy when his post was arguing in favor of that policy.

no, it wasn't, but yes, it was stupid to assume.


So saying something passes Constitutional muster is an argument against it?

Also...

i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-03-15 12:38:36 PM

DrewCurtisJr: The Indiana photo ID law had its day in court and was upheld.


Indiana Secretary of State Todd Rokita has conceded the state has never presented a case of "voter impersonation," which the law was designed to safeguard against.

So explain to me again why these laws are necessary? Pretend I'm stupid and go slow.
 
2012-03-15 12:38:54 PM
Disenfranchisement and vote suppression have long been core Republican election tactics. They do their best to pull this crap year after year, election after election. Caging, posting obnoxious confrontational jerks to polling places to browbeat voters who don't look Republican, under-equipping polling places in non-Republican areas, erecting needless barriers to voting that disproportionally affect their opponents, shameless gerrymandering, using their partisan operatives in state and county offices to rig elections, etc.

As their sense of impending embarrassment ratchets up this year, I think their desperation is going to lead to new lows in Republican anti-democracy.
 
2012-03-15 12:39:38 PM

Wendy's Chili: So saying something passes Constitutional muster is an argument against it?


no, but it isn't an argument for it. It is a discussion of a particular argument against it.

[butthurt.jpg]

yeah, you sure showed me. You're not looking increasingly foolish at all.
 
2012-03-15 12:40:25 PM

skullkrusher: There are procedures for currently allowing homeless people to vote. Current voter registration laws do require you to somehow prove you are eligible to vote in that area.


Yeah I know. I actually disagree with those though. People make voter fraud out to be some enormous issue when reality is quite the contrary. We've got all of these laws set up to protect us from the boogey man. Ooooh super scary.

skullkrusher: no, it wasn't, but yes, it was


My head hurts. I need more coffee.
 
2012-03-15 12:41:00 PM

fracto73: socodog: If people are really so very worried about it, they should organize rallies to get people valid ID's and voter registration.


Republicans would take action against any organisation that tried to help the people they were disenfranchising. They would discredit it and accuse it of helping people vote fraudulently.


"Would"? They already have.
 
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