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(Mirror.co.uk)   Nanny State has CCTV cameras installed at gas stations that will automatically stop the pump if an uninsured car tries to fill up   (mirror.co.uk) divider line 244
    More: Interesting, CCTV cameras, gas stations, DVLA  
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10465 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Mar 2012 at 12:11 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



244 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-03-14 12:13:41 AM  
Time to ramp my online siphon store
 
2012-03-14 12:13:45 AM  
a uninsured cars tries... a uninsured cars tries.
 
2012-03-14 12:14:23 AM  
Makes sense. How about one that emits an EMP to kill the engines of criminals robbing the place?
 
2012-03-14 12:14:32 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: a uninsured cars tries... a uninsured cars tries.


'an uninsured car'?
 
2012-03-14 12:15:12 AM  
Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere
 
2012-03-14 12:15:44 AM  
I'm opposed I think.

//dnrtfa

///knowing it will hassle many not guilty of said offense. And the "couldn't get gas taking me mum to hospital, and she died right their in me car," factor might be a problem. again. //dnrtfa
 
2012-03-14 12:15:44 AM  

XplodedSynapses: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: a uninsured cars tries... a uninsured cars tries.

'an uninsured car'?



Wait a second... since when do cars try to fill themselves up? Don't motorists do that?
 
2012-03-14 12:16:07 AM  
That's sure going to make it tricky filling up a gas can for the lawn mower.
 
2012-03-14 12:16:36 AM  
dear subby:

"if an uninsured car..."
"if any uninsured cars..."

not:

your headline
 
2012-03-14 12:16:52 AM  
Won't stop people with large gas cans or places that don't cross-reference.
 
2012-03-14 12:17:09 AM  
I like it. Keeping uninsured motorists off the road is a good thing.
 
2012-03-14 12:17:26 AM  
I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?
 
2012-03-14 12:17:34 AM  
it's just a mess

fix it
fix it
fix it
 
2012-03-14 12:18:00 AM  
The law is a ass.
 
2012-03-14 12:18:35 AM  

Big Ramifications: The law is a ass.


The law is a asses.

FTFY.
 
2012-03-14 12:18:59 AM  

calbert: it's just a mess

fix it
fix it
fix it


Fix old?
 
2012-03-14 12:19:48 AM  
woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)
 
2012-03-14 12:20:05 AM  
i55.tinypic.com
 
2012-03-14 12:21:03 AM  

readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)


I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.
 
2012-03-14 12:21:26 AM  
This just goes to show, when you give the government the ability to do something, they eventually will do it. FTA "Currently the system is designed to deter motorists from driving off without paying for petrol." That's how they sold it to the public. That's how they got the system in place.

When deciding if any government power is just or not, don't evaluate it in terms of how it is supposed to be used, or the best case scenario. Instead, evaluate it based on how it will be used in the worst way by the worst people. Because it eventually will. Only once you've done that, and you still think the government needs that power, should you vote to give it to them.

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
 
2012-03-14 12:21:51 AM  
Beats having a drone take out the offending vehicle.

Whoo-hoo, Im getting all nostalgic for thr 20th century.
 
2012-03-14 12:22:11 AM  
FTA:One in 25 drivers in the UK do not have insurance - one of the worst records in western Europe.

According to recent figures, around 160 people are killed and 23,000 injured by uninsured and untraced drivers every year.

really? I would venture it is 1 in 8 around here, maybe worse. I think it is the UNTAXED cars they are worrying about in Blighty...

What do they do about foreign cars?
 
2012-03-14 12:23:15 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?


I'm pretty sure they were never allowed to this. You just let them get away with it.
 
2012-03-14 12:23:58 AM  
Why do the English put up with this bullshiat?
 
2012-03-14 12:24:01 AM  
 
2012-03-14 12:24:59 AM  
a uninsured cars
www.funnyforumpics.com
 
2012-03-14 12:25:56 AM  
Hah. If the gas station I work at charged me for all the drive offs, I probably just wouldn't let anyone pump gas without pre-paying first.
 
2012-03-14 12:26:35 AM  
The proposals will have a huge impact - forcing drivers to insure and tax their car if they want to drive.

Or they'll just take a picture of someone else's plate, print it life-sized, and stick it over theirs.
 
2012-03-14 12:27:04 AM  

Kurmudgeon: That's sure going to make it tricky filling up a gas can for the lawn mower.


If Sgygus had his (or her) way, think of how much insurance you would have for your lawn!
 
2012-03-14 12:28:02 AM  

insertsnarkyusername: I'm pretty sure they were never allowed to this. You just let them get away with it.


I had a co-worker fight it, and he ended up getting counter-sued. They argued he must have let his friends steal the gas, since he didn't get a license plate. My options were to keep looking for a job, or be unemployed. I'm sure not every company is that bad, but they refused to put up more cameras than their insurance required, refused to make people pay at the pump or prepay so incidents like that could happen, and other shenanigans I probably shouldn't specifically mention since I'm posting under my name.
 
2012-03-14 12:31:03 AM  

Quark_Quasar: Hah. If the gas station I work at charged me for all the drive offs, I probably just wouldn't let anyone pump gas without pre-paying first.


If you willingly take a job at a gas station where you have to pay for theft... you deserve to work at a gas station.
 
2012-03-14 12:33:42 AM  
I didn't know that China Central Television had such a large market presence in Britain.
 
2012-03-14 12:35:16 AM  

Kim Jong-il: I didn't know that China Central Television had such a large market presence in Britain.


Subby obviously meant BBC.
 
2012-03-14 12:35:43 AM  

Bartleby the Scrivener: Quark_Quasar: Hah. If the gas station I work at charged me for all the drive offs, I probably just wouldn't let anyone pump gas without pre-paying first.

If you willingly take a job at a gas station where you have to pay for theft... you deserve to work at a gas station.


True. The one thing I've learned from the experience: People (at least in America) feel entitled. I don't just mean kind of, or a little bit, but so entitled that they make a mild-mannered man such as myself consider homicide. Glorious, heralded homicide.
 
2012-03-14 12:37:08 AM  
At least the nanny state doesn't enforce grammatically correct headlines.
 
2012-03-14 12:37:14 AM  

XplodedSynapses: XplodedSynapses: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: a uninsured cars tries... a uninsured cars tries.

'an uninsured car'?


Wait a second... since when do cars try to fill themselves up? Don't motorists do that?


Thank you.
 
2012-03-14 12:37:16 AM  
It's been my understanding that in the UK you go get your own plate printed anyway. It's not issued by any sort of DMV. They give you your number and then you take that number to a shop that prints plates. Then you stick that on your car.

I've been told by many ex-Brits that tons of people have fake plates made up so they don't have to pay the congestion taxes in London or get out of parking tickets.

If this is the case, then this new CCTV setup is worthless, like so many other nanny state laws.

Anyone have evidence to support or deny this?
 
2012-03-14 12:38:00 AM  

Bartleby the Scrivener: Quark_Quasar: Hah. If the gas station I work at charged me for all the drive offs, I probably just wouldn't let anyone pump gas without pre-paying first.

If you willingly take a job at a gas station where you have to pay for theft... you deserve to work at a gas station.


Wait. If you had to pay 100% for drive offs, did you get 100% of what people paid for fuel?
 
2012-03-14 12:38:07 AM  

fredklein: The proposals will have a huge impact - forcing drivers to insure and tax their car if they want to drive.

Or they'll just take a picture of someone else's plate, print it life-sized, and stick it over theirs.

with a screwdriver.
 
2012-03-14 12:38:34 AM  
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

LOVE IT!!!

THAT IS ALL!!!
 
2012-03-14 12:39:54 AM  
Why don't they just make up a list of everybody, and then divide up everything in the country, and give a lot of it to the people that they like, and much, much less to the people that they don't like.
Then, if the people that they don't like get out of line, they can just go down the list and liquidate those people and then divide up their old stuff amongst the other people on the list that they like.

Then there would be no need for this sort of thing.

You see, what they really lack is a list.
 
2012-03-14 12:40:39 AM  

Quark_Quasar: Bartleby the Scrivener: Quark_Quasar: Hah. If the gas station I work at charged me for all the drive offs, I probably just wouldn't let anyone pump gas without pre-paying first.

If you willingly take a job at a gas station where you have to pay for theft... you deserve to work at a gas station.

True. The one thing I've learned from the experience: People (at least in America) feel entitled. I don't just mean kind of, or a little bit, but so entitled that they make a mild-mannered man such as myself consider homicide. Glorious, heralded homicide.


well,,,,,bye
 
2012-03-14 12:41:42 AM  

9beers: I like it. Keeping uninsured motorists off the road is a good thing.


Pretty soon they will cross reference the credit card with the list of insured drivers for the car. In Angland everyone who drives the car has to be listed on the insurance.
 
2012-03-14 12:41:52 AM  
If you can capture the image of an insured license plate, and blow it up to the proper size, you will be fine.
 
2012-03-14 12:42:23 AM  
we should have cut george 3's head clean off and all his little krout kinder too.


missed chances....
 
2012-03-14 12:43:30 AM  

Quark_Quasar: Bartleby the Scrivener: Quark_Quasar: Hah. If the gas station I work at charged me for all the drive offs, I probably just wouldn't let anyone pump gas without pre-paying first.

If you willingly take a job at a gas station where you have to pay for theft... you deserve to work at a gas station.

True. The one thing I've learned from the experience: People (at least in America) feel entitled. I don't just mean kind of, or a little bit, but so entitled that they make a mild-mannered man such as myself consider homicide. Glorious, heralded homicide.



Don't hold it in. It feels so freeing when you finally let it go.
 
2012-03-14 12:44:03 AM  
Just put this camera on the freeway and let it trigger the "U Stop'em Strips" Recycle the debris and wipe brow.

I kinda like the insurance added to gas price idea. May need some tweaking...possibly redirect some of the government taxes that are already in the price. Just a nickel or so.

/Gas, How does it work?
 
2012-03-14 12:44:28 AM  
There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.
 
2012-03-14 12:45:52 AM  
time to hoist the black flag and slit throats
 
2012-03-14 12:46:00 AM  
You know, I was about to say I was all for this... until I actually thought about it for ten seconds.

* You're out driving in BFE, and have accidentally let your insurance lapse yesterday. Insurance company didn't get you on the phone with a reminder yet. You let the tank run down because you know you can grab some later, pull into the station in a bad neighborhood and... no gas. You gon' get beaten and raped because you had to walk home through the bad neighborhood, all because you went a day over on the insurance. (OK, maybe the cut off isn't a day, but the point is, there is a cutoff somewhere and that cutoff decision is made by a computer that is unaware of individual circumstance, not to mention prone to error.)

* You don't renew your insurance or tags, because you don't actually drive your car any more. (Maybe you're elderly.) Then your loved one has a medical emergency and... oh shiat, the phone's out of battery. You get on the road to take them to hospital yourself, and the car runs out of gas. There's a gas station, but it's closed and you're blocked from getting gas at the pump. Your loved one slowly dies in the car while you walk to the nearest neighborhood and start banging on doors.

This rule, frankly, is idiotic because it has no get-out clause, and no nuance. Scan tags and pull over cars that are driving without insurance. Do NOT deny people the ability to get out of an emergency situation, especially when we all know damned well that somebody who really does have insurance will also be prevented from getting gas due to a typo / other clerical error.

Dumb.

Dumb.

DUMB.


/sometimes I am ashamed to be of British extraction, we've turned into a nation of mindless drones who will accept anything so long as it "defeats" some section of the populace that the media has us whipped up into a frenzy over.
 
2012-03-14 12:46:05 AM  
It makes sense to encourage people to make more responsible decisions. I'd like to see this expanded to so-called 'deadbeat dads'. If the database sees you owe money, the price of fuel is doubled or tripled and the excess is paid back to your ex at tax time. Sometimes people need a nudge to do the right thing.
 
2012-03-14 12:46:11 AM  
I never would have imagined that Mad Max was really just a prescient documentary.
 
2012-03-14 12:46:22 AM  

one of Ripley's Bad Guys: FTA:One in 25 drivers in the UK do not have insurance - one of the worst records in western Europe.


Most states would be glad to get down to 8%, let alone 4%.
 
2012-03-14 12:47:26 AM  

Kurmudgeon: That's sure going to make it tricky filling up a gas can for the lawn mower.


I was thinking the same thing. What if you run out of gas and have to hike to the station to fill your can? Are they just going to turn you away if you forget to bring proof of insurance?
 
2012-03-14 12:48:25 AM  

CujoQuarrel: There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.


Turning into?

*snort*

The US leads the way in this shiat, they just don't have the coolest technology. Deny you gas? No, we'll taze the bejesus out of you instead.
 
2012-03-14 12:48:28 AM  
Why is this closed circuit? Everyone should be able to enjoy this potental comedy gold!
 
2012-03-14 12:48:38 AM  
profile.ak.fbcdn.net
 
2012-03-14 12:50:15 AM  

gweilo8888: CujoQuarrel: There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.

Turning into?

*snort*

The US leads the way in this shiat, they just don't have the coolest technology. Deny you gas? No, we'll taze the bejesus out of you instead.


But I enjoy that part.......
 
2012-03-14 12:51:22 AM  
That's it, folks, Just keep giving away your freedoms in silence.

Don't think for one second this won't be tried here in the States. Only a matter of time.
 
2012-03-14 12:52:12 AM  

CujoQuarrel: gweilo8888: CujoQuarrel: There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.

Turning into?

*snort*

The US leads the way in this shiat, they just don't have the coolest technology. Deny you gas? No, we'll taze the bejesus out of you instead.

But I enjoy that part.......


Yeah... Sure, we'll let you fill up your tank, IF you can make it through our gauntlet of tazers!
 
2012-03-14 12:54:55 AM  
So...either people will evade this new obstacle, or there will be more abandoned cars on the road. Yeah, sounds about right for a "good" governmental idea.
 
2012-03-14 12:55:24 AM  

Ken VeryBigLiar: one of Ripley's Bad Guys: FTA:One in 25 drivers in the UK do not have insurance - one of the worst records in western Europe.

Most states would be glad to get down to 8%, let alone 4%.


A little research on Google shows that 1 out of 7 U.S. motorists are uninsured. The two states with the highest rates of uninsured are Mississippi (28%) and New Mexico (26%)
 
2012-03-14 12:57:07 AM  

Animatronik: Beats having a drone take out the offending vehicle.

Whoo-hoo, Im getting all nostalgic for thr 20th century.


Oo, I like that idea better!
 
2012-03-14 12:57:32 AM  
I am insured no matter what car I drive. My car is in the shop and I had to borrow a friend's car...

Bet the camera screws that up.

Expired tabs are a whole other story.
 
2012-03-14 12:58:46 AM  

Surool: I am insured no matter what car I drive. My car is in the shop and I had to borrow a friend's car...

Bet the camera screws that up.

Expired tabs are a whole other story.


Music tab feels your pain...
 
2012-03-14 12:59:51 AM  
1984 was written about England

/Just a reminder
//across the pond the US is worse and Canada is not far behind
/// 1984 was 10 years ago
 
2012-03-14 01:01:45 AM  
What would have happened if they tried this 20, 30, 50 years ago?
 
2012-03-14 01:02:48 AM  

Kurmudgeon: That's sure going to make it tricky filling up a gas can for the lawn mower.


Not if it is insured, and taxes paid. I guess they won't be selling electric cars in Britain.
 
2012-03-14 01:04:16 AM  

cmb53208: Ken VeryBigLiar: one of Ripley's Bad Guys: FTA:One in 25 drivers in the UK do not have insurance - one of the worst records in western Europe.

Most states would be glad to get down to 8%, let alone 4%.

A little research on Google shows that 1 out of 7 U.S. motorists are uninsured. The two states with the highest rates of uninsured are Mississippi (28%) and New Mexico (26%)


I thought it was in poor taste to say they'd "kill" for single digits. Then again the uninsured idiots out there were great tools to motivate people to get Personal Liability Umbrellas when I worked in Personal Lines...
 
2012-03-14 01:04:41 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere




A good idea if you're trying to generate more insurance fraud.
 
2012-03-14 01:07:45 AM  

Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]


www.dallasdancemusic.com
 
2012-03-14 01:08:37 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?


1. If it reduced your pay below minimum wage they can't- Federal law- and in California this is illegal no matter what your wage is. In other States it depends on the laws
 
2012-03-14 01:08:59 AM  

Little.Alex: Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere



A good idea if you're trying to generate more insurance fraud.


No its a really good idea, pay $10 for a gallon of gas, get instant insurance, drive car out of station and into your brother in laws van full of family members.....everyone sues.....Profit.
 
2012-03-14 01:11:22 AM  

tankjr: Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]

[www.dallasdancemusic.com image 180x135]


We thank you for your insightful and well-reasoned argument, but it is a school day tomorrow and you shouldn't be up this late.
 
2012-03-14 01:15:33 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: CujoQuarrel: gweilo8888: CujoQuarrel: There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.

Turning into?

*snort*

The US leads the way in this shiat, they just don't have the coolest technology. Deny you gas? No, we'll taze the bejesus out of you instead.

But I enjoy that part.......

Yeah... Sure, we'll let you fill up your tank, IF you can make it through our gauntlet of tazers!


Ohhh Ohhhh. Me first me first .............
 
2012-03-14 01:17:48 AM  
These boxes must be really tough. Around here they'd end up meeting Mr Sledgehammer.
 
2012-03-14 01:17:53 AM  
So it's like waiting on the lotto/scratch off people.
 
2012-03-14 01:25:01 AM  

gweilo8888: You know, I was about to say I was all for this... until I actually thought about it for ten seconds.

* You're out driving in BFE, and have accidentally let your insurance lapse yesterday. Insurance company didn't get you on the phone with a reminder yet. You let the tank run down because you know you can grab some later, pull into the station in a bad neighborhood and... no gas. You gon' get beaten and raped because you had to walk home through the bad neighborhood, all because you went a day over on the insurance. (OK, maybe the cut off isn't a day, but the point is, there is a cutoff somewhere and that cutoff decision is made by a computer that is unaware of individual circumstance, not to mention prone to error.)

* You don't renew your insurance or tags, because you don't actually drive your car any more. (Maybe you're elderly.) Then your loved one has a medical emergency and... oh shiat, the phone's out of battery. You get on the road to take them to hospital yourself, and the car runs out of gas. There's a gas station, but it's closed and you're blocked from getting gas at the pump. Your loved one slowly dies in the car while you walk to the nearest neighborhood and start banging on doors.

This rule, frankly, is idiotic because it has no get-out clause, and no nuance. Scan tags and pull over cars that are driving without insurance. Do NOT deny people the ability to get out of an emergency situation, especially when we all know damned well that somebody who really does have insurance will also be prevented from getting gas due to a typo / other clerical error.


Ok, now let us pretend that the ridiculous hypotheticals you have presented actually ever happen.

Compare to the figures in the article: "around 160 people are killed and 23,000 injured by uninsured and untraced drivers every year."

Are you seriously suggesting that your scenarios (or similar) would happen 23,000 times a year? Or even 160?

Yes I am aware even if this system was in every servo in the UK it wouldn't completely eliminate the above, but it would still prevent more injuries and deaths than cause inconvenient anomalies of circumstance.
 
2012-03-14 01:28:00 AM  
I'm watching you, naughty boy....

t0.gstatic.com

//lawn... stay off
 
2012-03-14 01:29:10 AM  

davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.

~
WOAH! $90 at $1.20/gallon??

Imagine if it was $90 at $1.50/gallon.
 
2012-03-14 01:36:41 AM  

Big Ramifications: davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.
~
WOAH! $90 at $1.20/gallon??

Imagine if it was $90 at $1.50/gallon.


I LOL at that one, but to be fair to him, when gas was $1.20/gallon, $90 was worth more than it is today.

Also, when I was stationed in England, I was amazed at what those people had to put up with. I would just shake my head and tell them their country needed a revolution.
 
2012-03-14 01:39:47 AM  
Stick around, Amerika, it will happen here soon.

England is like a time machine, everything they do there now happens here later.

\\\ Sad.
 
2012-03-14 01:40:45 AM  
images.wikia.com

i can see a black market for gas sold in pale blue shoe-boxes
 
2012-03-14 01:46:16 AM  
The primary offensiveness of this is that it's pretty clearly an excuse to track the movements of people that have committed no crime without warrant or cause. Since they do that in the UK regardless, I suppose in context its no worse than being a surveillance state in the first place.
 
2012-03-14 01:57:37 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


That's how it works in NZ. (new window)

Of course, we have an awful government-owned accidental personal injury insurance system that is one of the best-value and best-performing schemes in the world.

Never fear, the current right wing government is busy trying to privatise it.
 
2012-03-14 01:59:21 AM  

lewismarktwo: 9beers: I like it. Keeping uninsured motorists off the road is a good thing.

Pretty soon they will cross reference the credit card with the list of insured drivers for the car. In Angland everyone who drives the car has to be listed on the insurance.


No, they don't. My insurance for the car I own lets me legally drive any car, as long as that car has it's own insurance. I don't have to be listed on that cars insurance.

Does mean the Police have to more or less trust us since we do not have to carry any insurance, registration, driving licence etc. If we are stopped the cops can ask our name and address and check that with the records but we don't have to show them anything.
 
2012-03-14 01:59:29 AM  
You WILL buy insurance or you will not drive!


Man, why didn't I buy stock in insurance so many years ago? What more can you ask for? "I have the Government make sure you buy our product and we keep the profits". Insurance rules the world.

It's one thing to be forced to pay into a plan that you are definitely going to get a return in the end one way or another, such as (the idea) of Social Security and Medicare. (The idea because the reality is run by thieves.)

But it's another to be forced to buy insurance so somebody's company can profit, and choose to not cover someone for whatever reason they fathom.

We are already slaves.
 
2012-03-14 02:01:06 AM  
Bring this to America!
 
2012-03-14 02:01:17 AM  

CujoQuarrel: There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.


Americans must carry their driving licence with them when they drive. That seems weird and Orwellian to us. Swings and roundabouts.
 
2012-03-14 02:06:47 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?


davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.


davidphogan: I'm sure not every company is that bad, but they refused to put up more cameras than their insurance required, refused to make people pay at the pump or prepay so incidents like that could happen, and other shenanigans I probably shouldn't specifically mention since I'm posting under my name.


I'm pretty sure I would have stole $40 worth of shiat every time I got docked $30. That shiat shouldn't be encouraged.

olddinosaur: England is like a time machine, everything they do there now happens here later.


Then you should probably pay more attention to what happened to her empire.
 
2012-03-14 02:11:14 AM  

Stoker: You WILL buy insurance or you will not drive!

Man, why didn't I buy stock in insurance so many years ago? What more can you ask for? "I have the Government make sure you buy our product and we keep the profits". Insurance rules the world.

It's one thing to be forced to pay into a plan that you are definitely going to get a return in the end one way or another, such as (the idea) of Social Security and Medicare. (The idea because the reality is run by thieves.)

But it's another to be forced to buy insurance so somebody's company can profit, and choose to not cover someone for whatever reason they fathom.

We are already slaves.



You don't have to have insurance. You can put down a 250K GBP bond in place of insurance.

But you WILL make some provision in case you destroy someone else's property or life. You don't have to insure yourself or your vehicle, you MUST insure against harming others as a condition of road use.

I have no problem with this.
 
2012-03-14 02:12:40 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: tankjr: Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]

[www.dallasdancemusic.com image 180x135]

We thank you for your insightful and well-reasoned argument, but it is a school day tomorrow and you shouldn't be up this late.


t.qkme.me
 
2012-03-14 02:17:35 AM  

DssDevl: That's it, folks, Just keep giving away your freedoms in silence.


Just curious, what freedom is being given up here?
 
2012-03-14 02:17:38 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The primary offensiveness of this is that it's pretty clearly an excuse to track the movements of people that have committed no crime without warrant or cause. Since they do that in the UK regardless, I suppose in context its no worse than being a surveillance state in the first place.


We don't have to carry any ID, licence etc when driving. Swings and roundabouts.

And there are nowhere near the number of cameras that some people think. There have been lots of high profile crimes where if they did have the CCTV people think they have they could have been solved in a heartbeat.

Think about it. Cameras can detect uninsured or untaxed cars instantly. (Happened to me once. I'd just bought a car and didn't have the paperwork to buy the tax. I went past a police car on a motorway and they instantly pulled out, pulled me over and said "Why haven't you got any tax?")
But 1 in 8 cars on the road are uninsured. So clearly they have not been detected by any cameras. So the "camera on every street" myth is obviously just that, a myth.
 
2012-03-14 02:20:01 AM  

knbwhite: Big Ramifications: davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.
~
WOAH! $90 at $1.20/gallon??

Imagine if it was $90 at $1.50/gallon.

I LOL at that one, but to be fair to him, when gas was $1.20/gallon, $90 was worth more than it is today.

Also, when I was stationed in England, I was amazed at what those people had to put up with. I would just shake my head and tell them their country needed a revolution.

~
Fair call. Hadn't considered that.

Everybody is a winner!
 
2012-03-14 02:20:26 AM  
Gord, it's kinda sad that the Brits who so gallantly stood up against the Kaiser, and then the Nazis at such an enormous cost to safeguard freedom in the world are now so willing to roll over in the face of the actual realization of Orwell's nightmare without so much as a whimper.
 
2012-03-14 02:22:12 AM  
This is a stupid idea. You know that all this is going to do is cause problems because the records aren't going to be updated in a timely fashion. So you are going to have people who have insurance not being able to get gas because either the insurance company farked up or the government farked up. Either that or you are going to have delays in the system that turn a 5 minute stop for gas into a 20 minute stop. I would hate to be the customer service phone monkey that has to field these calls all day. The officials that come up with this shiat never stop and think about this type of stuff.
 
2012-03-14 02:24:17 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


That would actually be more fair to drivers, so we obviously can't have that.

What's next? having people pay for phone data by the byte?
 
2012-03-14 02:24:37 AM  

taurusowner: This just goes to show, when you give the government the ability to do something, they eventually will do it. FTA "Currently the system is designed to deter motorists from driving off without paying for petrol." That's how they sold it to the public. That's how they got the system in place.

When deciding if any government power is just or not, don't evaluate it in terms of how it is supposed to be used, or the best case scenario. Instead, evaluate it based on how it will be used in the worst way by the worst people. Because it eventually will. Only once you've done that, and you still think the government needs that power, should you vote to give it to them.

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."


Newsletter, if you please. Thx
 
2012-03-14 02:24:58 AM  
Wait a sec.

In CA you can't get gas without pre-paying by card or cash. What's a "drive-off" if you mandate pre-pay?

You must carry a record of insurance while driving unless stopped by a LEO.

Why not just mandate proof of insurance with the annual renewal and skip the cameras?
 
2012-03-14 02:26:05 AM  

Flint Ironstag: But 1 in 8 cars on the road are uninsured. So clearly they have not been detected by any cameras. So the "camera on every street" myth is obviously just that, a myth.


Or, y'know, restricted to higher-population areas. Which is the actual case, apparently.
 
2012-03-14 02:28:08 AM  

Country Member: Gord, it's kinda sad that the Brits who so gallantly stood up against the Kaiser, and then the Nazis at such an enormous cost to safeguard freedom in the world are now so willing to roll over in the face of the actual realization of Orwell's nightmare without so much as a whimper.


America has the No Fly List. America won't let its citizens visit Cuba. America makes it's citizens pay income tax even if they live abroad. America makes it's citizens carry ID when they drive. America made all its citizens show a passport when crossing the land border to its neighbour. (Drive from Northern Ireland to Ireland and the speed signs changing from MPH to KMH is the only clue you are now in a different country)

Why did you allow all that to happen?
 
2012-03-14 02:28:52 AM  

unyon: olddinosaur: England is like a time machine, everything they do there now happens here later.

Then you should probably pay more attention to what happened to her empire.


Rest assured I do, and it scares hell out of me.
 
2012-03-14 02:31:33 AM  

lohphat: Wait a sec.

In CA you can't get gas without pre-paying by card or cash. What's a "drive-off" if you mandate pre-pay?

You must carry a record of insurance while driving unless stopped by a LEO.

Why not just mandate proof of insurance with the annual renewal and skip the cameras?


From what the article says the cameras are there to prevent people from driving off without paying, but now they are going to be used to also check for insurance before you can pump gas.

I know the cameras do work to keep people from driving off without paying. In my area word got out that people were being arrested at their homes because they were caught on camera driving off without paying, those drive offs fell down to almost none.

However I think using them to check for insurance will only cause delays at the pump and lead to people not being able to get gas because their paper work was messed up or the system wasn't updated with their info.
 
2012-03-14 02:31:36 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Flint Ironstag: But 1 in 8 cars on the road are uninsured. So clearly they have not been detected by any cameras. So the "camera on every street" myth is obviously just that, a myth.

Or, y'know, restricted to higher-population areas. Which is the actual case, apparently.


You think 1 in 8 of the UKs cars are owned by people out in the deserted countryside? And never driven into a town? Statistically wouldn't that mean that every car owned outside built up areas was uninsured? And since the entire UK is the same size as a single US state we don't really have any places that are not "high population areas".
 
2012-03-14 02:32:03 AM  

ongbok: This is a stupid idea. You know that all this is going to do is cause problems because the records aren't going to be updated in a timely fashion. So you are going to have people who have insurance not being able to get gas because either the insurance company farked up or the government farked up. Either that or you are going to have delays in the system that turn a 5 minute stop for gas into a 20 minute stop. I would hate to be the customer service phone monkey that has to field these calls all day. The officials that come up with this shiat never stop and think about this type of stuff.


Good point. We have a problem here in the U.S. with people having warrants issued against them for tickets they already paid, I can just imagine what a clusterfark this would be.
 
2012-03-14 02:33:22 AM  

lohphat: Wait a sec.

In CA you can't get gas without pre-paying by card or cash. What's a "drive-off" if you mandate pre-pay?

You must carry a record of insurance while driving unless stopped by a LEO.

Why not just mandate proof of insurance with the annual renewal and skip the cameras?



It's already mandatory to present your insurance certificate when paying your annual road tax. I guess a lot of people just let their insurance expire and don't renew in a timely fashion? Or maybe the don't pay road tax either.
 
2012-03-14 02:36:03 AM  

Gothnet: lohphat: Wait a sec.

In CA you can't get gas without pre-paying by card or cash. What's a "drive-off" if you mandate pre-pay?

You must carry a record of insurance while driving unless stopped by a LEO.

Why not just mandate proof of insurance with the annual renewal and skip the cameras? And vice versa.


It's already mandatory to present your insurance certificate when paying your annual road tax. I guess a lot of people just let their insurance expire and don't renew in a timely fashion? Or maybe the don't pay road tax either.


Bingo. People who deliberately do not buy insurance generally do not then dutifully buy car tax.
 
2012-03-14 02:41:34 AM  

albatros183: /// 1984 was 10 years ago


That explains why my computer made horrible screeching noises for thirty seconds before I could log onto the Information Superhighway.

Now I can surf the net and discover the joys of the James T. Kirk Singalong Page, Mr T. Ate my Balls, and of course Mirsky's Worst of the Web. Or maybe pick up a few new Doom WADs and Second Reality by Future Crew.

/good times
 
2012-03-14 02:42:57 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


I make that point from time to time and most people who hear it get all derpie on me.

\But nothing compared to when I mention that the government could issue it's own credit/debit cards to people and reap the 3% charges from merchants instead of the banks.
 
2012-03-14 02:43:54 AM  
Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?
 
2012-03-14 02:56:15 AM  

Greymalkin: gweilo8888: ...

Ok, now let us pretend that the ridiculous hypotheticals you have presented actually ever happen.

Compare to the figures in the article: "around 160 people are killed and 23,000 injured by uninsured and untraced drivers every year."

Are you seriously suggesting that your scenarios (or similar) would happen 23,000 times a year? Or even 160?

Yes I am aware even if this system was in eve ...


I had the same thoughts. Uninsured drivers are a menace. If someone can't afford insurance they certainly can't afford to cover someone else's medical or property costs, and there's a good chance that there are other reasons they shouldn't be driving. If they hit another car or run someone over, they're gonna book it, and there is not much that the law or your own insurance can do for you if this happens. Uninsured motorist coverage in the U.S. can take care of part of it but it usually carries high deductible and has a low limit. A pedestrian who is a victim of hit-and-run is on their own unless the driver can be tracked down.

Really, what are the chances of needing to drive an uninsured car in an emergency AND needing gas to get to a hospital, especially compared to the risk that uninsured drivers cause?
 
2012-03-14 02:56:18 AM  

Flint Ironstag: Country Member: Gord, it's kinda sad that the Brits who so gallantly stood up against the Kaiser, and then the Nazis at such an enormous cost to safeguard freedom in the world are now so willing to roll over in the face of the actual realization of Orwell's nightmare without so much as a whimper.

America has the No Fly List. America won't let its citizens visit Cuba. America makes it's citizens pay income tax even if they live abroad. America makes it's citizens carry ID when they drive. America made all its citizens show a passport when crossing the land border to its neighbour. (Drive from Northern Ireland to Ireland and the speed signs changing from MPH to KMH is the only clue you are now in a different country)

Why did you allow all that to happen?


You make valid points, however your assumption that I'm an "American" is incorrect and as such I didn't allow any of these things to "happen".
 
2012-03-14 02:57:41 AM  

all the good names are gone: That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?


For the same reason Americans let the people who looted their economy roam free.
 
2012-03-14 02:58:26 AM  

all the good names are gone: Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?


Why do Americans allow themselves to be forced to carry ID when driving? Why do Americans (in many states) allow themselves to be legally forced to give a Cop their name and address if asked? Why do Americans (in many states) allow themselves to be forbidden to video a police officer in public?

Brits do not have to carry a driving licence, insurance, registration or any ID when driving. Brits do not have to tell a cop their name unless and until they have actually been arrested for a specific offence. There have been British cops who stopped people from videoing them, but the law and official Police policy is that the public have the right to film them. In some US states the official policy is that Americans do not have that right.

Swings and roundabouts. You think some British laws sound bad. We think many US laws sound bad.
 
2012-03-14 03:01:16 AM  

Country Member: Flint Ironstag: Country Member: Gord, it's kinda sad that the Brits who so gallantly stood up against the Kaiser, and then the Nazis at such an enormous cost to safeguard freedom in the world are now so willing to roll over in the face of the actual realization of Orwell's nightmare without so much as a whimper.

America has the No Fly List. America won't let its citizens visit Cuba. America makes it's citizens pay income tax even if they live abroad. America makes it's citizens carry ID when they drive. America made all its citizens show a passport when crossing the land border to its neighbour. (Drive from Northern Ireland to Ireland and the speed signs changing from MPH to KMH is the only clue you are now in a different country)

Why did you allow all that to happen?

You make valid points, however your assumption that I'm an "American" is incorrect and as such I didn't allow any of these things to "happen".


My bad. Apologies. I checked a few people's profiles before I replied but didn't check yours.
 
2012-03-14 03:02:48 AM  

Country Member: You make valid points, however your assumption that I'm an "American" is incorrect and as such I didn't allow any of these things to "happen".


Would we be correct to assume that the reason you didn't offer your actual nationality was that you're aware a similar list of issues could still be compiled, thus undermining the point you're trying to make?
 
2012-03-14 03:08:13 AM  

all the good names are gone: Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?



Err, yeah...

Why are Americans so prone to exaggeration?
 
2012-03-14 03:17:54 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?


My dad worked at a gas station in the 70's and it was the same policy. If you let someone drive off then the amount came out of your paycheck. If someone didn't have the cash on them he would take collateral of something with a greater value than the bill so they could go get money and come back to pay it. He only got burned by one person but the collateral in that case was a cool wooden billy club, my dad still has it to this day :)

More recently I went on a thanksgivings day trip with my fiance and her family. Gas stations down south seemed a little sketchy when we wanted to top off the tank and then pay afterwards (almost as if it was unheard of) but this was a rented van and I didn't know how much I needed to fill it up all the way. A couple of them required one of us to stay inside with the cashier until we paid, others held on to my drivers license and wrote down the plates.
 
2012-03-14 03:22:26 AM  

Tenatra:
More recently I went on a thanksgivings day trip with my fiance and her family. Gas stations down south seemed a little sketchy when we wanted to top off the tank and then pay afterwards (almost as if it was unheard of) but this was a rented van and I didn't know how much I needed to fill it up all the way. A couple of them required one of us to stay inside with the cashier until we paid, others held on to my drivers license and wrote down the plates.


I had that happen first time I visited California. Really weird. I have never seen that in the UK, though I think there are places that do that. You fill up and then walk in and pay.

Of course most stations here have pumps that take cards so it isn't an issue there. My local station is an Asda one and it doesn't have any office, all the pumps are automatic card ones.
 
2012-03-14 03:23:11 AM  

Greymalkin: Ok, now let us pretend that the ridiculous hypotheticals you have presented actually ever happen.

Compare to the figures in the article: "around 160 people are killed and 23,000 injured by uninsured and untraced drivers every year."

Are you seriously suggesting that your scenarios (or similar) would happen 23,000 times a year? Or even 160?

Yes I am aware even if this system was in eve ...


The hypotheticals are intentionally ridiculous to make a point, and because most folks on this site have a sense of humor. Will lesser hypotheticals play out, and especially people who actually do have insurance getting shut down by a system that won't be able to handle data errors? You're damned skippy they will.

Somebody getting hypothermia because they had to walk to help when their car ran out of gas in BFE the middle of the night, and the system wrongly denied them gas even though they carried insurance? That's very believable. Somebody getting hit by another car when they were walking on the side of a winding, unlit road without hi-vis clothing, because they didn't plan to be without their car? Equally believable. The chances that people will occasionally risk injury or worse from this system are there, whether or not you care to admit it.

There is absolutely no need for the system as described, because it is placed in the wrong area. Where it belongs is in police cars, which pretty much everybody passes with fair regularity, meaning you're just as likely to get caught, if not more so. (You'd need to place cameras in a hell of a lot fewer cop cars than you would gas stations, for near-100% national coverage.) Then the cop stops you and removes your vehicle if you don't have proof of insurance. That way, you have an opportunity to argue when the system inevitably makes mistakes. You provide proof, you leave unharmed apart from a brief inconvenience explaining yourself.

You know, innocent until proven guilty. Not the reverse, which is what this idiotic system is.

And your argument is a straw man. Uninsured drivers aren't more likely to have an accident than insured ones. If anything, they're less likely, just for the very fact that they know that if they get caught, they are way up shiat creek without a paddle, and if they have an accident, they're almost guaranteed to get caught. Hence getting uninsured drivers off the road doesn't increase the fatality rate any more than getting an insured driver off the road would, and arguably less so. The UK has socialized healthcare, and so the amount of insurance the driver carries means little to nothing to the victim's chances of survival, either.

And for some figures to counter yours, a recent Telegraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8867072/Road-deaths-rise-for- first-time-in-five-years.html

Assume similar levels year-round (a fair thing to do, as accident rates are likely higher in winter, not lower, given icy roads) and you have 2,000 fatalities a year on UK roads. Your 160 caused by the uninsured sounds pretty small now, doesn't it?

Hence all it means is that you're more likely to get your damages covered if there's an accident with another driver. But then, you can already get uninsured driver coverage for a pittance. And so all you're really saying is "I think that some people other than myself should occasionally be inconvenienced by a system that will wrongfully revoke their right to drive, and should in extreme circumstances risk injury or death so that I can save the small amount of money I pay for uninsured driver coverage."

And that, good sir, is pretty pathetic.
 
2012-03-14 03:27:30 AM  

Gothnet: all the good names are gone: Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?


Err, yeah...

Why are Americans so prone to exaggeration?


Exaggeration? Brits already HAVE the iris scanners from Minority Report. I should know; I'm a Brit, and I had to have my iris scanned the last time I went on a short domestic flight from Gatwick to Edinburgh. A *domestic* flight, for god's sakes -- it's not much beyond getting on a bus, and needed an iris scan to achieve.
 
2012-03-14 03:29:32 AM  

Flint Ironstag: Country Member: Flint Ironstag: Country Member:

You make valid points, however your assumption that I'm an "American" is incorrect and as such I didn't allow any of these things to "happen".

My bad. Apologies. I checked a few people's profiles before I replied but didn't check yours.

~
Awwwww. Isn't that sweet.
i42.tinypic.com
 
2012-03-14 03:31:43 AM  

ongbok: I know the cameras do work to keep people from driving off without paying.


Yeah, but it's not an automated system, right? The station attendant has to figure out that someone didn't pay, then they can review the tape to find the driver. The cameras mostly act as a deterrent.

I once accidentally drove off from a UK station without paying, because I've always lived in big-city suburbs in the US and have rarely if ever seen a pay-after station, so I just forgot. (really. I just assumed if the gas was in the car, I must have already paid for it)

I figured it out before I was even off the station property and drove back to the same pump, then went in and paid. The next few times I entered the UK I wondered if immigration was going to pull me aside.
 
2012-03-14 03:32:06 AM  

gweilo8888: Where it belongs is in police cars, which pretty much everybody passes with fair regularity, meaning you're just as likely to get caught, if not more so. (You'd need to place cameras in a hell of a lot fewer cop cars than you would gas stations, for near-100% national coverage.) Then the cop stops you and removes your vehicle if you don't have proof of insurance. That way, you have an opportunity to argue when the system inevitably makes mistakes. You provide proof, you leave unharmed apart from a brief inconvenience explaining yourself.


Traffic cars (The UK's Highway Patrol more or less) do have this system. There are two problems. One, there just aren't that many police cars on the road. We watch cop videos from Bumfark, Nebraska where they have eight cop cars chasing one drunk and we are amazed. We can have fair sized towns where there might be a single police car on patrol for the night.

Secondly, we don't have to carry any registration, insurance, licence or ID with us. So if we are stopped and the police computer says we don't have insurance we usually do not have anything to show otherwise. And a paper certificate only shows we had insurance, not that we have it right now. We could have cancelled it, my monthly payments may have not been made and the policy was cancelled etc.

Most cops would play it by ear. If you seem okay they will give you seven days to produce paperwork. If you look guilty, and the computer agrees, they will seize the car.
 
2012-03-14 03:33:38 AM  

gweilo8888: Gothnet: all the good names are gone: Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?


Err, yeah...

Why are Americans so prone to exaggeration?

Exaggeration? Brits already HAVE the iris scanners from Minority Report. I should know; I'm a Brit, and I had to have my iris scanned the last time I went on a short domestic flight from Gatwick to Edinburgh. A *domestic* flight, for god's sakes -- it's not much beyond getting on a bus, and needed an iris scan to achieve.


First time I ever used them was entering the US a few years ago. I don't think I have ever used them in the UK.

Hell, my driving licence doesn't even have my photograph on it....
 
2012-03-14 03:35:17 AM  
Uninsured does not necessarily equal bad driver. Sometimes it just equals broke and or unlucky. Know a guy, good driver but uninsured due to unemployment. So naturally he's been hit twice in the past year by insured drivers driving like fark heads. Which means his cost of insurance goes up simply for other people's stupidity, so he wont be getting insurance any time soon.
All that to say, insurance is too dang expensive and memphis TN drivers suck
 
2012-03-14 03:35:28 AM  
For extra funny ...

I think it may have changed recently, but last I checked in the UK you could buy a plate with any number on it you liked ... walk into Halfords (c.f. AutoZone) and ask for it - in the UK the specs and font are standardized but plates are made privately, and most car dealers and parts stores have the equipment.
 
2012-03-14 03:35:45 AM  

Flint Ironstag: Gothnet: lohphat: Wait a sec.

In CA you can't get gas without pre-paying by card or cash. What's a "drive-off" if you mandate pre-pay?

You must carry a record of insurance while driving unless stopped by a LEO.

Why not just mandate proof of insurance with the annual renewal and skip the cameras? And vice versa.


It's already mandatory to present your insurance certificate when paying your annual road tax. I guess a lot of people just let their insurance expire and don't renew in a timely fashion? Or maybe the don't pay road tax either.

Bingo. People who deliberately do not buy insurance generally do not then dutifully buy car tax.


That's why US plates clearly display the registration year (bright coloured sticker on the plate itself) -- it allows easy detection of expired registration and you can be stopped for it.
 
2012-03-14 03:42:22 AM  
"That's why US plates clearly display the registration year (bright coloured sticker on the plate itself)"

There are still bass ackwards states that tag plates? I'm shocked.
 
2012-03-14 03:43:53 AM  

Flint Ironstag:
Does mean the Police have to more or less trust us since we do not have to carry any insurance, registration, driving licence etc. If we are stopped the cops can ask our name and address and check that with the records but we don't have to show them anything.


Well, there are these ....
 
2012-03-14 03:45:19 AM  

ParaHandy: For extra funny ...

I think it may have changed recently, but last I checked in the UK you could buy a plate with any number on it you liked ... walk into Halfords (c.f. AutoZone) and ask for it - in the UK the specs and font are standardized but plates are made privately, and most car dealers and parts stores have the equipment.


Legally they have to ask for the cars documents to ensure that you have the right to that plate. In practice anyone can find someone to make a plate for them. Lots of people get a plate made that turns the number into a personal plate, like making the 7 look like a T, putting the gap in a different place so 181 LLS becomes 1 81LL S if your name is Bill Smith etc.
 
2012-03-14 03:46:08 AM  

Flint Ironstag:

Why do Americans allow themselves to be forced to carry ID when driving? Why do Americans (in many states) allow themselves to be legally forced to give a Cop their name and address if asked? Why do Americans (in many states) allow themselves to be forbidden to video a police officer in public?

Brits do not have to carry a driving licence, insurance, registration or any ID when driving. Brits do not have to tell a cop their name unless and until they have actually been arrested for a specific offence. There have been British cops who stopped people from videoing them, but the law and official Police policy is that the public have the right to film them. In some US states the official policy is that Americans do not have that right.


How do citations work over there?

Here in the US you don't actually have to carry your drivers license on you. There is probably a law somewhere in the system that says you have to but if you know your social security number then an officer can look you up in the system through those means.

On a side note, I was pulled over by a Missouri State Highway Patrol officer this past weekend for not wearing my seat belt. He asked me to take a seat in the front passenger seat of his car while he was filling out the paperwork and I noticed a small camera inside his cruiser. I wondered if they are using it to build a larger database of faces since normally they'd only have you on file through mugshots
 
2012-03-14 03:47:03 AM  

The Numbers: DssDevl: That's it, folks, Just keep giving away your freedoms in silence.

Just curious, what freedom is being given up here?


You don't consider being tracked by a camera losing freedom? Remeber, this is a camera that thinks and can change your actions.
 
2012-03-14 03:48:43 AM  
dcc.vu
 
2012-03-14 03:53:02 AM  
Everything phases.

Start at uninsured motorists, end at?

Start with aerial drones that simply observe
Get to aerial drones that shoot missiles,
End with thousands of aerial drones above our country.
(above example has already occurred in full)

Start with Taser will only be used in place of officer pulling a firearm
End with COMPLY NOW ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT
(above example has already occurred in full)

/no foresight?
 
2012-03-14 03:53:11 AM  

OhLuverly: Uninsured does not necessarily equal bad driver. Sometimes it just equals broke and or unlucky. Know a guy, good driver but uninsured due to unemployment. So naturally he's been hit twice in the past year by insured drivers driving like fark heads. Which means his cost of insurance goes up simply for other people's stupidity, so he wont be getting insurance any time soon.
All that to say, insurance is too dang expensive and memphis TN drivers suck


His rate went up because someone else hit him? Byzantine.

I've been in TX 12 years and have yet to figure out US underwriting ... I've made one at-fault claim, and the premium didn't go up. My weekend super car's premium is less than the one for the wife's shopping car, same policy.
 
2012-03-14 03:53:43 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


How would the pump know what insurance group your car is in...?
 
2012-03-14 04:02:07 AM  

Tenatra: Here in the US you don't actually have to carry your drivers license on you. There is probably a law somewhere in the system that says you have to but if you know your social security number then an officer can look you up in the system through those means.


Oh I guess I should also say that this is flawed and shouldn't be used as a method though. If they use your social instead of an ID then they are going to say your full name and SSN over the radio. Since it can be picked up on scanners you run the risk of being a victim of identity theft.
 
2012-03-14 04:05:19 AM  

Tenatra:
"Brits do not have to carry a driving licence, insurance, registration or any ID when driving. Brits do not have to tell a cop their name unless and until they have actually been arrested for a specific offence."

How do citations work over there?


The "offense" can be driving without insurance. UK police have a whole load of vans which read number plates as cars pass by. If you get flagged as 'no insurance' they pull you over. If you can't prove you have insurance they take your car away and you go walking home.

This is just a logical extension of that system. And a good one, too. There's far too many morons out there who think the system only applies to them when they're claiming benefit money.

OTOH car insurance went up by 40% in the UK last year because of all the insurance fraud, mostly done by organized crime. If they keep it up it'll soon be too expensive to drive over there.
 
2012-03-14 04:13:00 AM  

Tenatra:

Here in the US you don't actually have to carry your drivers license on you. There is probably a law somewhere in the system that says you have to but if you know your social security number then an officer can look you up in the system through those means.

On a side note, I was pulled over by a Missouri State Highway Patrol officer this past weekend for not wearing my seat belt. He asked me to take a seat in the front passenger seat of his car while he was filling out the paperwork and I noticed a small camera inside his cruiser. I wondered if they are using it to build a larger database of faces since normally they'd only have you on file through mugshots


I understood you had to carry your licence while driving? I've even seen quite a few articles linked on Fark where cops have demanded a driving licence from people in shops or walking on the sidewalk.

And as I mentioned in another post, police here don't even have my mugshot. My driving licence does not have my photo on it and I have never supplied one.
 
2012-03-14 04:14:27 AM  

DssDevl: The Numbers: DssDevl: That's it, folks, Just keep giving away your freedoms in silence.

Just curious, what freedom is being given up here?

You don't consider being tracked by a camera losing freedom? Remeber, this is a camera that thinks and can change your actions.


What you need to remember is that these are private businesses and as such will probably all have posted signs reminding you that they reserve the right to refuse to serve you. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure I don't have a right to be sold fuel or to dictate the manner in which that sale takes place.

I am, however, free to choose not to enter such premises and I'll still retain that freedom.
 
2012-03-14 04:15:00 AM  

ParaHandy: [dcc.vu image 282x448]


Clearly a fake. This is waht a real one looks like.

img207.imageshack.us
 
2012-03-14 04:29:34 AM  

Flint Ironstag: I understood you had to carry your licence while driving? I've even seen quite a few articles linked on Fark where cops have demanded a driving licence from people in shops or walking on the sidewalk.


The license only really serves its' purpose to identify you and in the system it is used to track points against your license. Both your SSN and license are tied together which means that they are able to look you up either way. After you are pulled over they will go to their car and get on the radio with dispatch. If you have your ID, then they will broadcast your name but if your social is used then that will be used as the method over the radio so you can be found in the database.

What they really want is to know if you have a suspended license and/or a warrant out for your arrest.
 
2012-03-14 04:48:10 AM  
Waiting for the FOLLOWUP where some perfectly legal car/driver has tags misread (I for a 1, or 0 for an O, etc.) on his way to work, job interview, family emergency and is denied gas.... then the attendant gets the shiat kicked out of him for 20 minutes.

/or the guy really looses it, drives over the pumps and the place goes all Ramboesk
 
2012-03-14 04:51:59 AM  
All these stupid plans seem pretty retarded to me, It should be a simple '2 strikes and your out' system.

If you get caught without insurance, same with Phoning/Texting while driving, DUI, using false plates to evade charges etc, it should be an instant 5 year ban, if you get caught driving during the ban, you go to jail.

Seems logical to me, of course there would be a right to appeal if you have extraordinary circumstances, but anybody using the 'I need my car for my job' excuse can fark right off.
 
2012-03-14 04:57:10 AM  
Wouldn't it have been cheaper for the UK government to simply have a Universal Car Care just like they have Universal Health?

Just force everyone to pay the government to insure their cars.

They're already in the deep end. Might as well go full retard.
 
2012-03-14 05:04:46 AM  
So Gitmo, the Patriot Act, Extraordinary Rendition, incarceration rates off the scale, the death penalty, religious nutcases in positions of power, no legal alcohol until you hit 21, custodial sentences for petty drugs possession, every cop armed: yup, what we need is more American Freedom over here.
 
2012-03-14 05:05:19 AM  

archichris: Little.Alex: Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere



A good idea if you're trying to generate more insurance fraud.

No its a really good idea, pay $10 for a gallon of gas, get instant insurance, drive car out of station and into your brother in laws van full of family members.....everyone sues.....Profit.



Or you buy gas, intentionally hit your own brother's car, both claim whiplash, (emphasis on the h in whiplash ) then you take the $300 throw-away car to your Uncle's body shop; where he junks it but claims to have done $10,000 work on it.

And none of this is investigated any more than Welfare Fraud is - because it's another unmanaged government pile of money.
 
2012-03-14 05:09:23 AM  

SickAsAParrot: All these stupid plans seem pretty retarded to me, It should be a simple '2 strikes and your out' system.

If you get caught without insurance, same with Phoning/Texting while driving, DUI, using false plates to evade charges etc, it should be an instant 5 year ban, if you get caught driving during the ban, you go to jail.

Seems logical to me, of course there would be a right to appeal if you have extraordinary circumstances, but anybody using the 'I need my car for my job' excuse can fark right off.


Yes, because if there's one thing America isn't doing enough, its sending people to jail.

/Your newsletter, kindly deposit it in the trash.
 
2012-03-14 05:13:10 AM  

Dadoody: Wouldn't it have been cheaper for the UK government to simply have a Universal Car Care just like they have Universal Health?

Just force everyone to pay the government to insure their cars.

They're already in the deep end. Might as well go full retard.


People like you are the reason your great country is sliding into the sh*tter.

Well, that and China.
 
2012-03-14 05:18:54 AM  

TheMega: Waiting for the FOLLOWUP where some perfectly legal car/driver has tags misread (I for a 1, or 0 for an O, etc.) on his way to work, job interview, family emergency and is denied gas.... then the attendant gets the shiat kicked out of him for 20 minutes.

/or the guy really looses it, drives over the pumps and the place goes all Ramboesk



And now you know why there is a specific format for UK plates - AA XX AAA where A is a letter and X is a number. This neatly removes your concern.
 
2012-03-14 05:41:09 AM  

gweilo8888: * You're out driving in BFE, and have accidentally let your insurance lapse yesterday. Insurance company didn't get you on the phone with a reminder yet. You let the tank run down because you know you can grab some later, pull into the station in a bad neighborhood and... no gas. You gon' get beaten and raped because you had to walk home through the bad neighborhood, all because you went a day over on the insurance. (OK, maybe the cut off isn't a day, but the point is, there is a cutoff somewhere and that cutoff decision is made by a computer that is unaware of individual circumstance, not to mention prone to error.)

* You don't renew your insurance or tags, because you don't actually drive your car any more. (Maybe you're elderly.) Then your loved one has a medical emergency and... oh shiat, the phone's out of battery. You get on the road to take them to hospital yourself, and the car runs out of gas. There's a gas station, but it's closed and you're blocked from getting gas at the pump. Your loved one slowly dies in the car while you walk to the nearest neighborhood and start banging on doors.

This rule, frankly, is idiotic because it has no get-out clause, and no nuance. Scan tags and pull over cars that are driving without insurance. Do NOT deny people the ability to get out of an emergency situation, especially when we all know damned well that somebody who really does have insurance will also be prevented from getting gas due to a typo / other clerical error.


Wow. In some incredibly unlikely scenarios there is the small likelihood that very occasionally somebody trying to do something illegal will suffer consequences?
 
2012-03-14 05:43:54 AM  

TheMega: Waiting for the FOLLOWUP where some perfectly legal car/driver has tags misread (I for a 1, or 0 for an O, etc.) on his way to work, job interview, family emergency and is denied gas.... then the attendant gets the shiat kicked out of him for 20 minutes.

/or the guy really looses it, drives over the pumps and the place goes all Ramboesk


UK license plates are designed to be read by cameras. They have an officially mandated font, etc. Any deviation from the standard font/spacing/size is an offense in itself.
 
2012-03-14 05:49:18 AM  

Gothnet: It's already mandatory to present your insurance certificate when paying your annual road tax. I guess a lot of people just let their insurance expire and don't renew in a timely fashion? Or maybe the don't pay road tax either.


or

c) Arrange to pay your insurance monthly and cancel the bank debit as soon as you get a tax disk.
 
2012-03-14 05:53:15 AM  

Flint Ironstag: Legally they have to ask for the cars documents to ensure that you have the right to that plate. In practice anyone can find someone to make a plate for them. Lots of people get a plate made that turns the number into a personal plate, like making the 7 look like a T, putting the gap in a different place so 181 LLS becomes 1 81LL S if your name is Bill Smith etc.


It's illegal and you'll be pulled over and fined by the first police car that sees it.
 
2012-03-14 06:06:19 AM  

gweilo8888: Somebody getting hypothermia because they had to walk to help when their car ran out of gas in BFE the middle of the night, and the system wrongly denied them gas even though they carried insurance? That's very believable. Somebody getting hit by another car when they were walking on the side of a winding, unlit road without hi-vis clothing, because they didn't plan to be without their car? Equally believable. The chances that people will occasionally risk injury or worse from this system are there, whether or not you care to admit it.


Except it isn't exactly difficult to build in a workaround to avoid any of these scenarios, rare though they may be.

All you'd need to do is program the pumps to allow some fuel even when the vehicle doesn't register as being insured, but only a set maximum amount (and maybe at a slightly higher cost). This could provide enough for an emergency journey whilst also be sufficiently inconvenient / costly to deter the uninsured from doing it regularly.

Or the station could have a stock of pre-filled jerry cans to sell if needed, with the same effect.
 
2012-03-14 06:17:08 AM  

Joce678: Flint Ironstag: Legally they have to ask for the cars documents to ensure that you have the right to that plate. In practice anyone can find someone to make a plate for them. Lots of people get a plate made that turns the number into a personal plate, like making the 7 look like a T, putting the gap in a different place so 181 LLS becomes 1 81LL S if your name is Bill Smith etc.

It's illegal and you'll be pulled over and fined by the first police car that sees it.


That was my whole point, that while the law says one thing you can always find some dodgy dealer to make any plate you want.
 
2012-03-14 06:22:29 AM  

Country Member: Gord, it's kinda sad that the Brits who so gallantly stood up against the Kaiser, and then the Nazis at such an enormous cost to safeguard freedom in the world are now so willing to roll over in the face of the actual realization of Orwell's nightmare without so much as a whimper.


img406.imageshack.us

Big Brother is Watching you...in Portugal.
 
2012-03-14 06:31:21 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: Country Member: Gord, it's kinda sad that the Brits who so gallantly stood up against the Kaiser, and then the Nazis at such an enormous cost to safeguard freedom in the world are now so willing to roll over in the face of the actual realization of Orwell's nightmare without so much as a whimper.

[img406.imageshack.us image 453x604]

Big Brother is Watching you...in Portugal.


At least get the country right...
 
2012-03-14 06:31:44 AM  
"Cameras at petrol stations will automatically stop uninsured or untaxed vehicles from being filled with fuel, under new government plans."

I don't think they've thought this cunning plan all the way through

www.proquip.com.au


And yeah - seriously the UK scares me more each day when it comes to this kind of crap. Lovely place otherwise though.
 
2012-03-14 06:32:25 AM  

gweilo8888:
And your argument is a straw man. Uninsured drivers aren't more likely to have an accident than insured ones. If anything, they're less likely, just for the very fact that they know that if they get caught, they are way up shiat creek without a paddle, and if they have an accident, they're almost guaranteed to get caught. Hence getting uninsured drivers off the road doesn't increase the fatality rate any more than getting an insured driver off the road would, and arguably less so. The UK has socialized healthcare, and so the amount of insurance the driver carries means little to nothing to the victim's chances of survival, either.


But there are wider public policy dimensions as driving uninsured often occurs alongside noncompliance with other vehicle requirements (like VED and MOT certification) as well as other criminal activity. Moreover, evidence from a range of sources suggests that uninsured drivers also have a higher likelihood of being involved in a road traffic accident.3 (new window)

Bloody reality, no respect for logic.
 
2012-03-14 07:37:34 AM  

Azlefty: davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?

1. If it reduced your pay below minimum wage they can't- Federal law- and in California this is illegal no matter what your wage is. In other States it depends on the laws



Just because there is a law doesn't mean there is a way to enforce it. You and I both live in a "Right To Work" state. All that means is that your employer can fire you without giving a reason.

My sister used to manage the bar at a popular upscale seafood restaurant in Northern California that had the same policy for their servers, requiring the servers to pay for "dine & dash" customers. Thieves liked to move to the bar after a meal, and then wait for their server to enter the kitchen before nonchalantly leaving. I have seen her vault the bar with her little baseball bat in hand, screaming "Call the cops!!!" and chase runners for blocks. Usually she and the police would arrive back at the restaurant at the same time, with her prodding the miscreant in the kidneys with her little bat, and berating him about ripping off the servers. She is fearless about keeping her job.

If you want to keep a lucrative job badly enough, you'll put up with some underhanded shiat from unscrupulous employers if you have to.
 
2012-03-14 07:55:23 AM  
cowgirl toffee
Why is this closed circuit? Everyone should be able to enjoy this potential comedy gold!


This week on Gas Holes! When the pump fails to pump, the chump moves to another pump! What a dunce. And this suave gent sends his li'l Whitney in to the store to plead his case.

Attendant: Can I help you?
li'l Whitney: We need gas. Can you turn on the pump please?
Attendant: I need to see proof of insurance.
li'l Whitney: (Extensive cursing) (Pause) (Sweetly) We need gas to get to the... hospital.
Attendant: I'll be happy to call 911.
li'l Whitney: (Extensive cursing)
 
2012-03-14 07:55:34 AM  
As interesting as this story is, I look forward to the story about the creative ways in which the citizenry gets around this oppression. Funny thing how that works...
 
2012-03-14 07:59:42 AM  
Nanny State has Government think tank hypothesises about CCTV cameras installed at gas stations that will automatically stop the pump if an uninsured car tries to fill up.

De-dramatised on your behalf subby :)

I think we'd be far more likely to see roadside fixed ANPR cameras, or perhaps something integrated into the next evolution of speed camera.

Flint Ironstag, you'll probably get a photo counterpart if you ever have to change address (or send in for endorsements). I started with a paper one, but they'll get you eventually. I don't think we'll ever be forced to carry it though, the national identity card got laughed out of town eventually, and I hope forced ID in any form would too.

Also, Wobbingpool brings the chuckles :)
 
2012-03-14 08:00:46 AM  
A few years ago, I met with my insurance guy. He went over everything we were paying and suggested we increase our uninsured motorist coverage. We live in that part of the state where a lot of people don't carry insurance. So I asked him what happens when a guy who is uninsured has an accident.

He replied "We go after them but they usually don't have the means to repay us. The state of Illinois takes their license for 90 days (first offense?) but that doesn't stop them."

I said "You know what? You just convinced me that I don't need insurance either."

But I still have insurance.
 
2012-03-14 08:09:53 AM  
How do you get gas for your lawnmowers and so forth?

When I lived near a gas station, I'd just walk up there with a can and buy some gas. Would I need to have a license plate on my lawnmower?
 
2012-03-14 08:10:24 AM  
This sounds like a recipe for a lot more mishaps with gas cans injuring innocent bystanders and a lot more minor gasoline spills at service stations, resulting in more pollution.

Or are gasoline powered lawnmowers, off-road-vehicles and snowblowers outlawed there too?

/yeah, yeah. "petrol" -- which makes more sense.
 
2012-03-14 08:17:43 AM  
meanwhile in Virginia, you just pay the state $500, and you can drive all you want without insurance.
The state gets some cash, and they care fark-all if someone dipshiat is out driving with no way to cover any property or medical damage he might cause.
Then they have the balls to require you to get uninsured motorist insurance.

WTF, Virginia?
 
2012-03-14 08:18:58 AM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Azlefty: davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?

1. If it reduced your pay below minimum wage they can't- Federal law- and in California this is illegal no matter what your wage is. In other States it depends on the laws


Just because there is a law doesn't mean there is a way to enforce it. You and I both live in a "Right To Work" state. All that means is that your employer can fire you without giving a reason.

My sister used to manage the bar at a popular upscale seafood restaurant in Northern California that had the same policy for their servers, requiring the servers to pay for "dine & dash" customers. Thieves liked to move to the bar after a meal, and then wait for their server to enter the kitchen before nonchalantly leaving. I have seen her vault the bar with her little baseball bat in hand, screaming "Call the cops!!!" and chase runners for blocks. Usually she and the police would arrive back at the restaurant at the same time, with her prodding the miscreant in the kidneys with her little bat, and berating him about ripping off the servers. She is fearless about keeping her job.

If you want to keep a lucrative job badly enough, you'll put up with some underhanded shiat from unscrupulous employers if you have to.


My best dine and dash story involved a friend of mine. I was dining in his establishment one evening with my wife. After he took my order, he leaned down and told me to watch the table behind me. After working the floor for a while you get a sixth sense on these things. Sure enough, as soon as he hit the kitchen door, the party got up and headed for the door. I slipped in behind them (dressed in a suit) and when they turned to see if anyone had seen them I said: Sir, I don't believe you have paid your bill." Needless to say, the was some hemming and hawing but the check was paid.

My meal was comped.

\CSB
\\Got more (spent eight years as a waiter)
\\\It's amazing what people will try to get away with.
 
2012-03-14 08:20:36 AM  
You are doing it WRONG, retards.
 
2012-03-14 08:30:36 AM  

davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.


I was wondering how long ago this was. There have been laws in place for some time that prevent employers requiring employees to pay for those things as it's a "cost of doing business". The laws cover things like:

1) Gas station owners charging clerks for what you just mentioned
2) Pizza places charging delivery drivers for fake orders and/or delivery "discount if late" fees (though everyone I know has done away with discounts for late deliveries)
3) Restaurants charging waiters for dine-and-dashs.
 
2012-03-14 08:37:42 AM  
This is a great idea. I've been hit by an uninsured bellend and i had to pay out for repairs to my car.

The only people who will have an issue with this are uninsured drivers (Fvk you!) and the deeply paranoid.
 
2012-03-14 08:45:56 AM  

Flint Ironstag: America made all its citizens show a passport when crossing the land border to its neighbour.


You can leave the US without a passport all you want. You need one to get back in.
 
2012-03-14 08:47:42 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.


davidphogan: I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.


All I know is that under these circumstances (if the owner made me pay the $90) then more than $90 worth of vengeance would be mine.

If the worker is responsible for stopping loss they must also be empowered to implement anti-loss measures.
 
2012-03-14 08:50:04 AM  

UsikFark: If you can capture the image of an insured license plate, and blow it up to the proper size, you will be fine.


Fortunately a license plate sized print can be printed on a normal 8.5 x 11 piece of paper.

I recommend cruising a local hotel and snapping out of state plates. Harder to verify.

/uninsured drivers suck and should be executed after an accident.
 
2012-03-14 08:54:45 AM  

An un-retouched photo to ponder:


media.tumblr.com


My take on it:

i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-03-14 09:05:58 AM  
Businesses decide who they sell to not the government.
 
2012-03-14 09:07:57 AM  

SpectroBoy: An un-retouched photo to ponder:

[media.tumblr.com image 500x375]

My take on it:

[i0.kym-cdn.com image 500x282]


Really? I think humorous photoshops (new window) are a good thing. I particularly like the Captain Scott and Mark Twain ones.
 
2012-03-14 09:10:15 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere



I'm a safe and conscientious driver and you're a self absorbed, cell phone obsessed child; but because I drive more than you I should pay more for insurance?

/I'm not sure you've thought this clever plan all the way through
 
2012-03-14 09:23:35 AM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


There's more to insurance rating than just how far you drive and how fuel efficient your vehicle is.
 
2012-03-14 09:25:17 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?


They're not allowed to do that in the United States.
 
2012-03-14 09:35:15 AM  

davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.


It is bullshiat, which is why it's illegal under the Fair Labors Standards Act, unless the company has proof that you were the one who stole the gas.
 
2012-03-14 09:37:51 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


I'm a safe and conscientious driver and you're a self absorbed, cell phone obsessed child; but because I drive more than you I should pay more for insurance?

/I'm not sure you've thought this clever plan all the way through


It's called "No Fault" insurance for a reason. Of course you're a safe and conscientious driver. And because there is no blame assessed, your rates don't go up, regardless. If you buy gasoline, you have insurance. You'd prefer to be in an accident with an uninsured motorist and have your rates rise because you tend to hit idiots? I don't understand your logic.
 
2012-03-14 09:38:20 AM  

gweilo8888: CujoQuarrel: There is no way I would live in that country.

And we must work to keep America from turning into that.

Turning into?

*snort*

The US leads the way in this shiat, they just don't have the coolest technology. Deny you gas? No, we'll taze the bejesus out of you instead.


The US doesn't have the coolest technology? And the UK does?
 
2012-03-14 09:39:29 AM  

taurusowner: This just goes to show, when you give the government the ability to do something, they eventually will do it. FTA "Currently the system is designed to deter motorists from driving off without paying for petrol." That's how they sold it to the public. That's how they got the system in place.

When deciding if any government power is just or not, don't evaluate it in terms of how it is supposed to be used, or the best case scenario. Instead, evaluate it based on how it will be used in the worst way by the worst people. Because it eventually will. Only once you've done that, and you still think the government needs that power, should you vote to give it to them.

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."


Mr. Webster has said many fine things, but I believe you have hit upon the finest.
 
2012-03-14 09:57:16 AM  
Came for the petrol cans. Left full of gas.
 
2012-03-14 10:05:22 AM  

meanmutton: davidphogan: readbot42: woah, so I could all like, pull up to a gas pump with a tanker truck, get a few thousands gallons, drive off, and the attendant would have to pay?? WTF, that's SCTV kinda shaite. ;-)

I had an RV drive off on me and had to pay something like $90, and at that time gas was about $1.20/gallon. It was farking bullshiat.

It is bullshiat, which is why it's illegal under the Fair Labors Standards Act, unless the company has proof that you were the one who stole the gas.


Well, davidphogan, I guess that your incident never happened. Because there is a law.

I suppose you could be an illegal immigrant, in which case your employer is not required, and almost has a moral obligation to break the law, or your employer could be a national bank/gas station, in which case there are no laws. But there are no more exceptions, because as the old saying goes, "Laws are made to be followed".
 
2012-03-14 10:13:30 AM  

Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]


"This proposal will increase the potential for conflict. Our cashiers are not law enforcers."

Nuff said
 
2012-03-14 10:25:44 AM  

gweilo8888: You know, I was about to say I was all for this... until I actually thought about it for ten seconds.

* You're out driving in BFE, and have accidentally let your insurance lapse yesterday. Insurance company didn't get you on the phone with a reminder yet. You let the tank run down because you know you can grab some later, pull into the station in a bad neighborhood and... no gas. You gon' get beaten and raped because you had to walk home through the bad neighborhood, all because you went a day over on the insurance. (OK, maybe the cut off isn't a day, but the point is, there is a cutoff somewhere and that cutoff decision is made by a computer that is unaware of individual circumstance, not to mention prone to error.)

* You don't renew your insurance or tags, because you don't actually drive your car any more. (Maybe you're elderly.) Then your loved one has a medical emergency and... oh shiat, the phone's out of battery. You get on the road to take them to hospital yourself, and the car runs out of gas. There's a gas station, but it's closed and you're blocked from getting gas at the pump. Your loved one slowly dies in the car while you walk to the nearest neighborhood and start banging on doors.

This rule, frankly, is idiotic because it has no get-out clause, and no nuance. Scan tags and pull over cars that are driving without insurance. Do NOT deny people the ability to get out of an emergency situation, especially when we all know damned well that somebody who really does have insurance will also be prevented from getting gas due to a typo / other clerical error.

Dumb.

Dumb.

DUMB.

/sometimes I am ashamed to be of British extraction, we've turned into a nation of mindless drones who will accept anything so long as it "defeats" some section of the populace that the media has us whipped up into a frenzy over.


Wow. You are right, no one should ever be responsible for themselves.
 
2012-03-14 10:41:41 AM  

meanmutton: davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.

If the owners are still allowed to charge me for $30 cause some asshole drive off with a tank of gas and I couldn't stop them (I wasn't allowed to try) I'm okay with this. That or go with the easy answer, and require people pre-pay?

They're not allowed to do that in the United States.


In Mt. Pleasant, SC, there is a law that *requires* pre-payment of gasoline. (new window) Nobody complains, and gas drive-offs have been pretty much eliminated.
 
2012-03-14 10:44:02 AM  

davidphogan: I worked at a gas station. The owners would make us pay when someone drove off after filling up, but we weren't allowed to change the rules to require customers to pay first.


Were you too much of a pussy to say "go fark yourself I'm not working under those conditions", or was that the only job you could get while on parole?
 
2012-03-14 10:56:27 AM  

hasty ambush: Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]

"This proposal will increase the potential for conflict. Our cashiers are not law enforcers."

Nuff said


I could make a similar analogy about my job, which has specific regulations describing how my business must operate...

ME: "No, sir, I'm afraid I can't let you do that, it's against city codes..."
THEM: "But I'm going to hurt you if you don't let me..."
ME: "Well, if you insist, I suppose that I can't stop you, and it's not my duty to enforce city regulations anyway..."


That's BS. I'd refuse service to my customer if they wanted me to aid and abet their breaking of the law.
 
2012-03-14 11:17:33 AM  

Kraftwerk Orange: hasty ambush: Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]

"This proposal will increase the potential for conflict. Our cashiers are not law enforcers."

Nuff said

I could make a similar analogy about my job, which has specific regulations describing how my business must operate...

ME: "No, sir, I'm afraid I can't let you do that, it's against city codes..."
THEM: "But I'm going to hurt you if you don't let me..."
ME: "Well, if you insist, I suppose that I can't stop you, and it's not my duty to enforce city regulations anyway..."

That's BS. I'd refuse service to my customer if they wanted me to aid and abet their breaking of the law.


There's no way the petrol companies would let this be introduced as is; there's only downside for them. Only way it happens is if the government plays it like they do with alcohol licensing, and makes the business legally responsible for checking drivers are insured when they serve them. Then its a choice between having customers stand in line whilst the cashier checks their details manually, or using this system.
 
2012-03-14 11:32:30 AM  

knbwhite: Also, when I was stationed in England, I was amazed at what those people had to put up with. I would just shake my head and tell them their country needed a revolution.


I think that part of it is that the English are more willing to put up with minor inconveniences than Americans.
 
2012-03-14 11:46:31 AM  

The Numbers: Kraftwerk Orange: hasty ambush: Kraftwerk Orange: [i55.tinypic.com image 379x214]

"This proposal will increase the potential for conflict. Our cashiers are not law enforcers."

Nuff said

I could make a similar analogy about my job, which has specific regulations describing how my business must operate...

ME: "No, sir, I'm afraid I can't let you do that, it's against city codes..."
THEM: "But I'm going to hurt you if you don't let me..."
ME: "Well, if you insist, I suppose that I can't stop you, and it's not my duty to enforce city regulations anyway..."

That's BS. I'd refuse service to my customer if they wanted me to aid and abet their breaking of the law.

There's no way the petrol companies would let this be introduced as is; there's only downside for them. Only way it happens is if the government plays it like they do with alcohol licensing, and makes the business legally responsible for checking drivers are insured when they serve them. Then its a choice between having customers stand in line whilst the cashier checks their details manually, or using this system.


I'm only expressing my own opinion of what I would do if someone asked me to aid and abet them breaking a law in the course of my business. Of course, I'm a huge hypocrite as well, because there are certain times when I really hope that a business will break a law for my benefit - I like my hamburgers cooked rare, for example.

If the gas station operators don't want to participate, fine by me. OTOH, if they want to participate, use the system and keep uninsured bastages off the roads, that's wonderful!
 
2012-03-14 11:47:12 AM  

Flint Ironstag: Tenatra:

Here in the US you don't actually have to carry your drivers license on you. There is probably a law somewhere in the system that says you have to but if you know your social security number then an officer can look you up in the system through those means.

On a side note, I was pulled over by a Missouri State Highway Patrol officer this past weekend for not wearing my seat belt. He asked me to take a seat in the front passenger seat of his car while he was filling out the paperwork and I noticed a small camera inside his cruiser. I wondered if they are using it to build a larger database of faces since normally they'd only have you on file through mugshots

I understood you had to carry your licence while driving? I've even seen quite a few articles linked on Fark where cops have demanded a driving licence from people in shops or walking on the sidewalk.

And as I mentioned in another post, police here don't even have my mugshot. My driving licence does not have my photo on it and I have never supplied one.


You are supposed to carry your license while driving to prove that you are allowed on the roads. In the one instance that I was stopped and did not have it they just told me to bring in by the station in the next few days and I didn't even get a ticket.

You do not have to have any ID on you if you are not driving (I usually don't I keep it in the car). You are supposed to always give your name to the police when asked but I'm not sure what the official penalty is if you don't. I do know that giving a false identity is a crime.
 
2012-03-14 11:53:18 AM  
America will be like this soon with the liberals in charge. Gobama.

Minorities and illegals will be exempt though, not fair for them to go get insurance, just like photo IDs and voting.
 
2012-03-14 11:54:58 AM  
Whats next?Heart plugs?Farking Harkonnens.
 
2012-03-14 11:58:23 AM  

taurusowner:
When deciding if any government power is just or not, don't evaluate it in terms of how it is supposed to be used, or the best case scenario. Instead, evaluate it based on how it will be used in the worst way by the worst people. Because it eventually will. Only once you've done that, and you still think the government needs that power, should you vote to give it to them.

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."




Exactly where does one sign up for your newsletter?
 
2012-03-14 11:58:45 AM  

fireclown: knbwhite: Also, when I was stationed in England, I was amazed at what those people had to put up with. I would just shake my head and tell them their country needed a revolution.

I think that part of it is that the English are more willing to put up with minor inconveniences than Americans.


Christ, if America is so anti-inconvenience and yet still ends up with the delight that is catching a flight in the US, I'd hate to see what the country would look like if it were the kind to put with stuff.
 
2012-03-14 12:02:00 PM  
Bust out the tommy-gun Clyde, we've got a new black market!
 
2012-03-14 12:04:23 PM  
What happens if someone destroys the camera? Is the gas station rendered inoperable?
 
2012-03-14 12:11:07 PM  

Tenatra: The license only really serves its' purpose to identify you and in the system it is used to track points against your license. Both your SSN and license are tied together which means that they are able to look you up either way. After you are pulled over they will go to their car and get on the radio with dispatch. If you have your ID, then they will broadcast your name but if your social is used then that will be used as the method over the radio so you can be found in the database.


I live in Oklahoma, about as backasswards as a state as we have in the US. In Oklahoma, and I'm sure in most other states, you are in fact required to have your license on you when you drive. You can receive a ticket, and possibly be arrested, if you do not have your license when driving. We long ago unassociated our driver license number from our SSN. And police long ago stopped calling in any info, they have these new fangled gadgets in their cars called a computer.

I can only assume you live in Arkansas.
 
2012-03-14 12:13:43 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


I'm a safe and conscientious driver and you're a self absorbed, cell phone obsessed child; but because I drive more than you I should pay more for insurance?

/I'm not sure you've thought this clever plan all the way through


Sure, why not? See, the single greatest risk of you having a wreck is not how you drive, but the time you spend doing it. If you're not on the road, you're not going to have a wreck.

Of course, I wouldn't advocate such a system, I HATE consumption-based taxes, they're incredibly regressive. Instead, we should have a public insurance fund, paid for by a progressive income tax. Essentially, by being in the country and paying your income tax, you'd be insured automatically.
 
2012-03-14 12:24:09 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Why do Americans allow themselves to be forced to carry ID when driving?


Because driving isn't a right, it's a privilege? How does it work by you? Cop pulls you over, you give him whatever name you want, and he just takes your word that you're legit?

I don't think anyone really considers it a major imposition to carry _proof_ they're allowed to drive with them WHILE they drive. Do you habitually drive around with no wallet, money clip, or pants (sorry, trousers) pockets, where carrying it is such a big deal? Is there no space in the storage compartments in your car? Just because you guys don't require it doesn't mean we're under the thumb of Big Brother.

And unless you did something truly stupid or the cop pulling you over is an asshole, in many cases they'll look you up by your social security number (or your DL number if you're a freak who's memorized it), or they'll write you a deferred ticket that only goes into effect if you don't bring your license by the station in the next couple days or something. It's really not a big deal. I know a TON of "fight the powers that be" types and no one really has an issue with it.

Now, a cop demanding to see your driver's license when he wants to bust you for jaywalking, on the other hand...
 
2012-03-14 12:56:17 PM  

fireclown: knbwhite: Also, when I was stationed in England, I was amazed at what those people had to put up with. I would just shake my head and tell them their country needed a revolution.

I think that part of it is that the English are more willing to put up with minor inconveniences than Americans.


Americans and English put up with different kinds of shiat, but they both put up with plenty of it.
 
2012-03-14 01:02:50 PM  
As an ANPR administrator, this is Daily Mirror anti-government twaddle.

There are too many people driving around perfectly legally on trader insurance etc where the registration number is not written on the policy for this to be feasible. Heck, I've known Police Vehicles to hit on the 'No Insurance' database even though they are exempt as a governmental vehicle (most forces do specifically insure them also).

There's also a few errors in tfa - eg the No Insurance datase is maintained by the Motor Insurance Bureau not the DVLA. The '1 in 25 drivers are uninsured' is hopelessly outdated.

Currently there are no links at all between petrol forecourt ANPR and Police systems, even stolen cars will be passed at the kiosk. Now that definately needs to be addressed.
 
2012-03-14 01:26:14 PM  
As soon as this goes into effect I will be installing my InsureBoxTM machines at high traffic stations around the greater metro areas of the U.K. It will be the Redbox for on demand insurance. Just slip in your drivers license, answer a few questions, PAY 20% down, and VIOLA!!! Out comes proof of insurance and the national database is immediately updated.

Profit for me, gas and insurance for you all with the benefit of not having to see your filthy, uninsured, reckless mug in my highrise office with an immaculate view of (Enter idyllic view here).
 
2012-03-14 02:10:59 PM  

CaptSquirt: As soon as this goes into effect I will be installing my InsureBoxTM machines at high traffic stations around the greater metro areas of the U.K. It will be the Redbox for on demand insurance. Just slip in your drivers license, answer a few questions, PAY 20% down, and VIOLA!!! Out comes proof of insurance and the national database is immediately updated.

Profit for me, gas and insurance for you all with the benefit of not having to see your filthy, uninsured, reckless mug in my highrise office with an immaculate view of (Enter idyllic view here).


This isn't that bad an idea. I wonder what the economics would look like for short term, high risk insurance.
 
2012-03-14 02:31:55 PM  

The Numbers: DssDevl: The Numbers: DssDevl: That's it, folks, Just keep giving away your freedoms in silence.

Just curious, what freedom is being given up here?

You don't consider being tracked by a camera losing freedom? Remeber, this is a camera that thinks and can change your actions.

What you need to remember is that these are private businesses and as such will probably all have posted signs reminding you that they reserve the right to refuse to serve you. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure I don't have a right to be sold fuel or to dictate the manner in which that sale takes place.

I am, however, free to choose not to enter such premises and I'll still retain that freedom.


But you don't have the right to not patronize any gas station. If you are going to drive, which is a right under the constitution, you HAVE to get gas. They are preventing you from doing so.
 
2012-03-14 02:41:51 PM  

MycroftHolmes: CaptSquirt: As soon as this goes into effect I will be installing my InsureBoxTM machines at high traffic stations around the greater metro areas of the U.K. It will be the Redbox for on demand insurance. Just slip in your drivers license, answer a few questions, PAY 20% down, and VIOLA!!! Out comes proof of insurance and the national database is immediately updated.

Profit for me, gas and insurance for you all with the benefit of not having to see your filthy, uninsured, reckless mug in my highrise office with an immaculate view of (Enter idyllic view here).

This isn't that bad an idea. I wonder what the economics would look like for short term, high risk insurance.


The idea behind 20% down (or maybe 25% is the number) is to get insurance adverse drivers to buy into the policy deep enough that it is easier to keep the policy than to non-pay cancel and start over again when you want more gas.
The underwriting end would be via an aggregator that prices/underwrites multiple carriers simultaneously and the end result would show the user the carrier/s that accept the risk with the established premium.
 
2012-03-14 03:02:58 PM  

CujoQuarrel: You are supposed to carry your license while driving to prove that you are allowed on the roads. In the one instance that I was stopped and did not have it they just told me to bring in by the station in the next few days and I didn't even get a ticket.

You do not have to have any ID on you if you are not driving (I usually don't I keep it in the car). You are supposed to always give your name to the police when asked but I'm not sure what the official penalty is if you don't. I do know that giving a false identity is a crime.


How the hell would that even work? Your license would only show that you had a valid ID at one point (it could be revoked) Get an ID, tell the DMV you lost it, get a new one printed out for $20 and now you have 2 drivers licenses. If they confiscate your license there is always the backup you have.


NightOwl2255: I live in Oklahoma, about as backasswards as a state as we have in the US. In Oklahoma, and I'm sure in most other states, you are in fact required to have your license on you when you drive. You can receive a ticket, and possibly be arrested, if you do not have your license when driving. We long ago unassociated our driver license number from our SSN. And police long ago stopped calling in any info, they have these new fangled gadgets in their cars called a computer.

I can only assume you live in Arkansas.


I'm in Missouri, I've done it here and in Alaska.

Highway Patrol here uses computers linked to their troop hq and they don't radio any information but the normal town cops still use the radio for everything (even though they have laptops I don't know what the hell they use em for).

Just listened to the OKC, OK police scanner and within the first couple mins there were 2 calls in for registration info lookup on vehicles with paper tags and another call for driver information via name and date of birth. So they still have to use them for some info. btw sounds like it'd be fun to be a cop out there. Just to name a few of the things I heard... A woman called in a DV, forced entry in progress at another address, a wreck on i-35 medical needed asap, 2 teenagers walking around with guns and shots fired with a man down at a different location all within ~5 mins. Gotta love city life
 
2012-03-14 03:04:42 PM  

meanmutton: The US doesn't have the coolest technology? And the UK does?


"coolest" was maybe the wrong word, because there's nothing cool about it. Does the US have extremely widespread, Government-run cameras watching you everywhere you go, and now preventing you from buying gas, too?

I rest my case.

MycroftHolmes: Wow. You are right, no one should ever be responsible for themselves.


It was a tongue in cheek exaggeration for effect. Read my other posts and you'll find clear examples of other circumstances that will likely lead to injury and death in occasional circumstances, and extreme inconvenience with some regularity.

If you seriously believe that typos and clerical errors won't happen, and that they won't lead to people with valid insurance being denied fuel and stranded overnight in a tiny nowhere place with an unmanned gas station, well then you're a naive idiot.
 
2012-03-14 03:25:59 PM  

DssDevl: But you don't have the right to not patronize any gas station.


This makes no sense.

DssDevl: If you are going to drive, which is a right under the constitution, you HAVE to get gas.


That gas is already the property of someone else. What right do you think you have to it?

DssDevl: They are preventing you from doing so.


It affects the parameters of what you need to do to buy it, but it doesn't prevent you from buying it. Bars that operate a particular dress code aren't preventing you from buying their beer, they're saying 'we're going to exercise our right not to sell our property to you unless...'

/Also, this is the UK not the US so I'm not entirely sure why you've brought up the Constitution.
 
2012-03-14 03:32:34 PM  

gweilo8888: meanmutton: The US doesn't have the coolest technology? And the UK does?

"coolest" was maybe the wrong word, because there's nothing cool about it. Does the US have extremely widespread, Government-run cameras watching you everywhere you go, and now preventing you from buying gas, too?

I rest my case.

MycroftHolmes: Wow. You are right, no one should ever be responsible for themselves.

It was a tongue in cheek exaggeration for effect. Read my other posts and you'll find clear examples of other circumstances that will likely lead to injury and death in occasional circumstances, and extreme inconvenience with some regularity.

If you seriously believe that typos and clerical errors won't happen, and that they won't lead to people with valid insurance being denied fuel and stranded overnight in a tiny nowhere place with an unmanned gas station, well then you're a naive idiot.


Cool, a moving target. You want to pick a single stance and stick to it, or do you want to keep on with you 'I wasn't serious about my other comments which made me look like an idiot, but now I will challenge you with something different' approach.

To address that, yes typos can occur. As they can with other systems where a mistake might have the same affect (credit cards, arrest warrants, etc). Do you honestly think that a system (perhaps with an escalation a live operator at a clearing house) could not be developed to overcome this? Or are you basically saying that the system as you imagine it will not work?
 
2012-03-14 03:33:33 PM  

CaptSquirt: As soon as this goes into effect I will be installing my InsureBoxTM machines at high traffic stations around the greater metro areas of the U.K. It will be the Redbox for on demand insurance. Just slip in your drivers license, answer a few questions, PAY 20% down, and VIOLA!!! Out comes proof of insurance and the national database is immediately updated.

Profit for me, gas and insurance for you all with the benefit of not having to see your filthy, uninsured, reckless mug in my highrise office with an immaculate view of (Enter idyllic view here).


Why would you need your driving licence to buy insurance? In the UK anyone can phone up an insurer and get instant cover over the phone. Why would they need a kiosk?
 
2012-03-14 03:40:53 PM  

gweilo8888: meanmutton: The US doesn't have the coolest technology? And the UK does?

"coolest" was maybe the wrong word, because there's nothing cool about it. Does the US have extremely widespread, Government-run cameras watching you everywhere you go, and now preventing you from buying gas, too?

I rest my case.


And your case immediately falls to pieces, not just because the UK doesn't have a single Government-run camera preventing you from buying gas.

gweilo8888:
Read my other posts and you'll find clear examples of other circumstances that will likely lead to injury and death in occasional circumstances, and extreme inconvenience with some regularity.

None of your doomsday 'injury and death' scenarios can't be fixed by:

a) Simple tweaks to this system, such as those already suggested in this thread
b) Personal responsibility
 
2012-03-14 03:42:37 PM  

gweilo8888: meanmutton: The US doesn't have the coolest technology? And the UK does?

"coolest" was maybe the wrong word, because there's nothing cool about it. Does the US have extremely widespread, Government-run cameras watching you everywhere you go, and now preventing you from buying gas, too?

I rest my case.


Neither does the UK. These gas station cameras linked to the insurance database are just a suggestion at the moment.
And there are cameras on roads but nowhere near as ubiquitous as some people think. For example, when I got caught by a police car for having no tax, because I'd just bought the car and didn't have the paperwork, it was when I overtook the cop car on the motorway. At that point I'd been driving to work every weekday for a month, fifty miles each way, and not once got any ticket from any camera. Almost all speed cameras only record you if you are speeding, ditto red light cameras. And in that fifty mile journey I only passed one speed camera in the first 47 miles. The last three miles was the North Circular and I passed about six.
Most cameras on motorways are for keeping an eye on traffic flow and cannot read a licence plate unless the operator manually zooms in on a specific car.
 
2012-03-14 03:52:07 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Cool, a moving target. You want to pick a single stance and stick to it, or do you want to keep on with you 'I wasn't serious about my other comments which made me look like an idiot, but now I will challenge you with something different' approach.

To address that, yes typos can occur. As they can with other systems where a mistake might have the same affect (credit cards, arrest warrants, etc). Do you honestly think that a system (perhaps with an escalation a live operator at a clearing house) could not be developed to overcome this? Or are you basically saying that the system as you imagine it will not work?


No, not a moving target. The initial comment was valid, I just intentionally used some OTT examples for effect. The latter comments I have made are also valid. They are all damned good reasons why a better system needs to be found.

So, your stance is that "This is a great idea because they'll surely make a robust system with lots of checks and balances, and not just the cheapest possible rush-job by an incompetent who never should have had the job in the first place"?

Are you that naive, or have you just never dealt with government before?

It amazes me how quickly you lot are willing to embrace Orwell's worst nightmares. Question is, what benefit do you think you're getting out of this system? (And let's not have an unthinking parroting of the insurance industry rag and tiny, near-irrelevant Auckland survey to back up claims that uninsured drivers are slaughtering all the rest of us. Let's have some real, hard evidence, or just admit the only tiny benefit is that you get to save a few quid on uninsured motorist cover, potentially at huge inconvenience to somebody else who paid for their insurance too.)
 
2012-03-14 03:54:49 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Neither does the UK. These gas station cameras linked to the insurance database are just a suggestion at the moment.
And there are cameras on roads but nowhere near as ubiquitous as some people think. For example, when I got caught by a police car for having no tax, because I'd just bought the car and didn't have the paperwork, it was when I overtook the cop car on the motorway. At that point I'd been driving to work every weekday for a month, fifty miles each way, and not once got any ticket from any camera. Almost all speed cameras only record you if you are speeding, ditto red light cameras. And in that fifty mile journey I only passed one speed camera in the first 47 miles. The last three miles was the North Circular and I passed about six.
Most cameras on motorways are for keeping an eye on traffic flow and cannot read a licence plate unless the operator manually zooms in on a specific car.


a) A suggestion that will very likely come to fruition, if the eagerness with which you lot are embracing it is anything to go by. Murdoch's got you trained well, now -- you don't even think before agreeing to have yourselves inconvenienced any more.

b) They're on a hell of a lot more than just roads. I should know, a fairly close relative of mine's job is to monitor some of those cameras for HM Government.
 
2012-03-14 04:01:19 PM  

lewismarktwo: 9beers: I like it. Keeping uninsured motorists off the road is a good thing.

Pretty soon they will cross reference the credit card with the list of insured drivers for the car. In Angland everyone who drives the car has to be listed on the insurance.


No, they don't. My insurance states myself as named driver, and any other person who has my permission to drive the car.
 
2012-03-14 04:11:06 PM  

gweilo8888:
a) A suggestion that will very likely come to fruition, if the eagerness with which you lot are embracing it is anything to go by. Murdoch's got you trained well, now -- you don't even think before agreeing to have yourselves inconvenienced any more.

b) They're on a hell of a lot more than just roads. I should know, a fairly close relative of mine's job is to monitor some of those cameras for HM Government.


(a) The Mirror makes the Daily Mail look like the oracle of truth and accuracy, just left wing rather than right. And hence happy to spin a story that paints the current government in a bad light and wind up its readers. The sole "source" in this article is "unnamed official". I'm not holding my breath.

(b) Your point was that "there are cameras everywhere watching everything you do". The fact that I can drive 50 miles without my journey being recorded and my lack of tax being discovered surely proves you wrong.
And yes, these is other CCTV in the UK. Just as there is CCTV in the US. Funny that after any major incident, like the London bombings, the best they can come up with is a few grainy images, and often turn up no images at all. If they really had this fantastic network covering your every move why can't they get some better images? And the US? After the Times Square bomb attempt it was reported that police were checking out recordings from "85 cameras in the Times Square area."
 
2012-03-14 04:14:57 PM  

gweilo8888: MycroftHolmes: Cool, a moving target. You want to pick a single stance and stick to it, or do you want to keep on with you 'I wasn't serious about my other comments which made me look like an idiot, but now I will challenge you with something different' approach.

To address that, yes typos can occur. As they can with other systems where a mistake might have the same affect (credit cards, arrest warrants, etc). Do you honestly think that a system (perhaps with an escalation a live operator at a clearing house) could not be developed to overcome this? Or are you basically saying that the system as you imagine it will not work?

No, not a moving target. The initial comment was valid, I just intentionally used some OTT examples for effect. The latter comments I have made are also valid. They are all damned good reasons why a better system needs to be found.

So, your stance is that "This is a great idea because they'll surely make a robust system with lots of checks and balances, and not just the cheapest possible rush-job by an incompetent who never should have had the job in the first place"?

Are you that naive, or have you just never dealt with government before?

It amazes me how quickly you lot are willing to embrace Orwell's worst nightmares. Question is, what benefit do you think you're getting out of this system? (And let's not have an unthinking parroting of the insurance industry rag and tiny, near-irrelevant Auckland survey to back up claims that uninsured drivers are slaughtering all the rest of us. Let's have some real, hard evidence, or just admit the only tiny benefit is that you get to save a few quid on uninsured motorist cover, potentially at huge inconvenience to somebody else who paid for their insurance too.)


Actually, you will find nowhere in any of my posts where I advocate or speak against this system. My response was to you, specifically regarding your examples where you made it clear that it was someone else's responsibility to make sure that a person could not make a mistake. Please observe that in your two examples, never did you mention typos or system errors, but illustrated that the you believed the system was bad because it allowed other people to make mistakes, and for there to be consequences to their mistakes.

Amusingly, now you are moving targets again, and now taking an argument against this from an individual rights or privacy standpoint. Are you even aware that you can't maintain focus on a single point. Maybe people would take you arguments a little more seriously if you knew what they were.
 
2012-03-14 05:03:23 PM  

Flint Ironstag: (b) Your point was that "there are cameras everywhere watching everything you do". The fact that I can drive 50 miles without my journey being recorded and my lack of tax being discovered surely proves you wrong.
And yes, these is other CCTV in the UK. Just as there is CCTV in the US. Funny that after any major incident, like the London bombings, the best they can come up with is a few grainy images, and often turn up no images at all. If they really had this fantastic network covering your every move why can't they get some better images? And the US? After the Times Square bomb attempt it was reported that police were checking out recordings from "85 cameras in the Times Square area."


Congratulations, you found a 50 mile road in an unpopulated or lesser populated area, and are attempting to use a negative to prove a positive. The fact is, the populated areas (you know, where the people and their cars mostly are) is densely covered.

Newsflash: CCTV provides grainy images. CCTV cameras are not large-sensor SLRs. Where's Romero when you need him?

MycroftHolmes: Please observe that in your two examples, never did you mention typos or system errors, but illustrated that the you believed the system was bad because it allowed other people to make mistakes, and for there to be consequences to their mistakes.


EXACT QUOTE FROM MY VERY Boobies IN THIS THREAD:

"Do NOT deny people the ability to get out of an emergency situation, especially when we all know damned well that somebody who really does have insurance will also be prevented from getting gas due to a typo / other clerical error."

due to a typo / other clerical error.

DUE TO A TYPO / OTHER CLERICAL ERROR.
DUE TO A TYPO / OTHER CLERICAL ERROR.
DUE TO A TYPO / OTHER CLERICAL ERROR.


You fail so hard at reading comprehension, it makes my head hurt. I literally cannot be bothered to read the rest of your post
 
2012-03-14 05:19:20 PM  

gweilo8888: Flint Ironstag: (b) Your point was that "there are cameras everywhere watching everything you do". The fact that I can drive 50 miles without my journey being recorded and my lack of tax being discovered surely proves you wrong.
And yes, these is other CCTV in the UK. Just as there is CCTV in the US. Funny that after any major incident, like the London bombings, the best they can come up with is a few grainy images, and often turn up no images at all. If they really had this fantastic network covering your every move why can't they get some better images? And the US? After the Times Square bomb attempt it was reported that police were checking out recordings from "85 cameras in the Times Square area."

Congratulations, you found a 50 mile road in an unpopulated or lesser populated area, and are attempting to use a negative to prove a positive. The fact is, the populated areas (you know, where the people and their cars mostly are) is densely covered.

Maybe you missed my mention that the last three miles were the North Circular? One of the busiest roads in London, the inner ring road. And the journey to there included the M11 and M25, again some of the busiest motorways in the country. If you can name any roads busier then please do.
So much for "an unpopulated or lesser populated area...."



Newsflash: CCTV provides grainy images. CCTV cameras are not large-sensor SLRs. Where's Romero when you need him?


I thought you said the British government has "Government-run cameras watching you everywhere you go"? If they cannot make out who I am or even my car licence plate then what is the big deal?
They clearly cannot "follow me" or "monitor me" with such low quality images without spending a huge and costly effort to manually piece together footage, and even then unless they happen to catch me leaving my front door (no CCTV anywhere near my home, and no I don't live in a tiny cottage deep in the woods...) or getting out of my car, possible depending on where I park, but again relying on considerable manpower, then they cannot possibly know who I am anyway.

And again, I drove an untaxed car through fifty miles of the busiest roads in the country for a month without getting caught, despite ANPR being well established at the time. So clearly there is not this huge network of all seeing cameras that some gullible people believe.
 
2012-03-14 05:26:15 PM  

Big Ramifications:
Awwwww. Isn't that sweet.
i42.tinypic.com


Aww, two complete idiots kissing. That is very sweet.
 
2012-03-14 05:47:49 PM  
The only reason this is happening is so somebody connected to govt can get paid to put in and monitor the cameras.

/prob been said already
/DNRTFA
 
2012-03-14 06:41:49 PM  

all the good names are gone: Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?


In the United States, ANPR systems are more commonly referred to as ALPR (Automatic License Plate Reader/Recognition) technology, due to differences in language (i.e. "number plates" are referred to as "license plates" in American English) (new window)

Selected quotes:

Jurisdictions in the U.S. have stated a number of reasons for ALPR surveillance cameras, ranging from locating drivers with suspended licenses or no insurance, to finding stolen vehicles and "Amber Alerts".

In addition to the real-time processing of license plate numbers, ALPR systems in the US collect (and indefinitely store) data from each license plate capture. Images, dates, times and GPS coordinates can be stockpiled and can help place a suspect at a scene, aid in witness identification, pattern recognition or the tracking of individuals.
 
2012-03-14 06:47:45 PM  
Flint Ironstag:
Why would you need your driving licence to buy insurance? In the UK anyone can phone up an insurer and get instant cover over the phone. Why would they need a kiosk?

I'll bite.......As far as I understand, it is a legal requirement to have insurance when driving in the UK. And I believe a Driver License is required as well. A Driver License typically carries a handy "DL#" that can identify your "Infraction/Endorsement and points History" and also contains fun bits like Name, Address, etc. All the info on a license can help determine your rate.....So, assuming the UK issues a license with a scanning bar code, you could effectively begin the insurance rating process via an automated kiosk w/o the need to know or remember an insurer's number (hell, you're uninsured so why would you have an insurer's number???) or go through their process to insure you, just so you can purchase gas.
*Remember, you are danerous motoring filth and we are offering a nameless faceless way for you to get back into society's and the law's good graces by completing this transaction.

/getting later
//clarity not as clear
 
2012-03-14 07:03:14 PM  

CaptSquirt: Flint Ironstag:
Why would you need your driving licence to buy insurance? In the UK anyone can phone up an insurer and get instant cover over the phone. Why would they need a kiosk?

I'll bite.......As far as I understand, it is a legal requirement to have insurance when driving in the UK. And I believe a Driver License is required as well. A Driver License typically carries a handy "DL#" that can identify your "Infraction/Endorsement and points History" and also contains fun bits like Name, Address, etc. All the info on a license can help determine your rate.....So, assuming the UK issues a license with a scanning bar code, you could effectively begin the insurance rating process via an automated kiosk w/o the need to know or remember an insurer's number (hell, you're uninsured so why would you have an insurer's number???) or go through their process to insure you, just so you can purchase gas.
*Remember, you are danerous motoring filth and we are offering a nameless faceless way for you to get back into society's and the law's good graces by completing this transaction.

/getting later
//clarity not as clear


Since few people in the UK ever carry their driving licence, and mine doesn't even have my photograph let alone a barcode, it would seem that a gas station could simply have a small poster with the phone number of an insurer. They could even do a deal with an insurer to get commission.

A poster on the wall with a phone number would seem to be far simpler and cheaper than an automated kiosk that wouldn't work for any driver who wouldn't have their licence on them.
 
2012-03-14 10:40:59 PM  
From the comments: Lower the price of Petro and then they can afford that stinken insurance (THIEF IN THIER [sic] POCKETS)!!

Sorry, but everyone knows that only B. Hussein Osama can lower the price of gasoline.
 
2012-03-14 10:44:46 PM  

Sgygus: Insurance should be paid for by the gallon, at the pump.

/a good old idea that never seems to go anywhere


Sgygus is socialist!!!! points finger >
 
2012-03-14 11:42:46 PM  
ski9600, I'm tired of seeing so much of my money going to the middleman, the insurance agency. Same as with health insurance.

I guess not liking to waste my money makes me a socialist in the current political climate.
 
2012-03-15 12:55:38 AM  

Kurmudgeon: That's sure going to make it tricky filling up a gas can for the lawn mower.


This, and a lot of other problems will crop up I think. For instance trucks with the tailgate down and a load in the bed will stop any refueling under this system. So now they are going to stop teenagers from mowing lawns and laborers from going about their business, great... Unintended consequences, I see them coming.
 
2012-03-15 12:55:52 AM  

Sgygus: ski9600, I'm tired of seeing so much of my money going to the middleman, the insurance agency. Same as with health insurance.

I guess not liking to waste my money makes me a socialist in the current political climate.


You think agents live like a king off of your annual renewal commissions? Hint: it declines over time and the new business commission in Personal Lines is usually about 12% on autos and about 8% on home/renters.
 
2012-03-15 12:59:41 AM  

Gothnet: all the good names are gone: Am I the only one who read this part about it photographing and logging the plates?

That's just a small step from the iris scanners from Minority Report. Why do the Brits let this happen to themselves?


Err, yeah...

Why are Americans so prone to exaggeration?


We're not, and the suggestion that we are is the worst thing anyone has ever suggested, anywhere, ever.
 
2012-03-15 03:28:49 AM  
Ken VeryBigLiar, I'm really for pay-at-the-pump car insurance because then everyone who drives would have insurance. Single payer health insurance through taxes would also mean that (almost) everyone would be paying for health care. Health care should not be a for-profit business. As it is now, the collusion between health-insurance companies and medical supply companies stinks to high heaven.
 
2012-03-15 04:37:59 AM  

Sgygus: As it is now, the collusion between health-insurance companies and medical supply companies stinks to high heaven.


But I'm completely sure that there would be no such collusion between insurance companies and gas stations, because both are noted for their honesty and care for their customers.
 
2012-03-15 06:28:30 AM  
There is some larceny anywhere money changes hands, untaken_name, if someone can figure out how to job the system. But in the insurance paid at the pump scenario, the insurance company would be all the taxpayers in the state .... a government agency, if you will, with the amount of taxpayer oversight government agencies usually get. (not enough).
 
2012-03-15 06:31:13 AM  
As someone mentioned upthread, a pay-insurance-at-the-pump system is currently being used in New Zealand.
 
2012-03-15 07:47:58 AM  

Sgygus: As someone mentioned upthread, a pay-insurance-at-the-pump system is currently being used in New Zealand.


I'm not saying the system would fail horribly, or that it isn't an interesting alternative to the current system. Just pointing out that in order to administrate insurance policies, you need insurance companies, and in order to sell gasoline, you need gas stations. Neither of those industries is noted for honesty or customer concern. Also, in your system, black marketeers would get the same insurance protection that normal people would, only they'd pay less for it. I can point out flaws in a solution without completely dismissing that solution, can't I?
 
2012-03-16 06:45:41 PM  

Sgygus: Ken VeryBigLiar, I'm really for pay-at-the-pump car insurance because then everyone who drives would have insurance. Single payer health insurance through taxes would also mean that (almost) everyone would be paying for health care. Health care should not be a for-profit business. As it is now, the collusion between health-insurance companies and medical supply companies stinks to high heaven.


Equating practices in Property/Casualty and Health insurance is at best disingenuous. And the scammers that are currently around could find plenty of new ways what you're proposing.
 
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