I was thinking we should handle the trial and let Afghanistan handle the sentencing that would be a good way to build some bridges.

From what I know though I don't see this as having been a one man show, but I don't see any likely objective so far based on what we have been told that would account for an operation.

kindms: Kind of funny seeing the "good" and "hang him in the square " type of responses.

Same people who stay silent when we drop a bomb on a wedding or kill way more than 16 people with "bad intel" and all they get is a "whoops our bad"

Only difference is this kill has a face on it. The folks in DC wantonly kill civilians all day every day. Where is your outrage ? The acting US general said years ago that we kill an amazing amount of innocent civilians there everyday at checkpoints etc. And now you guys act all outraged ?

I'm upset about the wedding parties too. I think using Predators controlled outside the fire zone to kill people is a war crime. And I think we should get out of there as soon as it's feasible.

I'm not outraged by this. I am saddened from the loss of life, including the staff sergeant. Whether he is actually killed or not, his life is over.

9beers


Smartest
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2012-03-13 12:57:39 PM

tom baker's scarf: 9beers 2012-03-13 12:37:56 PM

tom baker's scarf: He has to pay and given the environment I think he'll have to pay with his life.

So because Muslims are screaming for his head, we should apply a different standard of justice so they feel better about things?

I guess this guy is just lucky that none of the 77 people he killed were Muslims. For that little bit of luck, he gets to spend the rest of his life in a country club of a prison.

The environment I'm referring to is a soldier in a war zone; any soldier in any war zone. We have well defined rules of conduct and while we can't expect our advisories to abide by the same rules we must demand that we act in as civilized way as possible, given the circumstances. This poor bugger was not acting out of self defense or under orders or made some kind of horrible, but honest mistake. He is a soldier and murder and that is what matters.

Just as a soldier's bravery and sacrifice are a credit to his unit and his country these types of actions leave inky stain on his comrades reputation and besmirch our country. A price must be paid though the stain can never be completely removed. Unfortunately that price will likely be his life. It isn't paid to appease the Afghans. It is paid in an attempt to cleanse our collective soul.

Nice speech but it has nothing to do with turning him over to the Afghans. He's an American soldier and will be processed through the military's justice system. The fact that Muslims want to see him turned over to them so he can be convicted, sentenced and put to death in a matter of days or weeks is just too damn bad for them.


You win at missing the point. I never even hinted at the idea that we should turn them over the Afghans. Quite the opposite, this MUST be carried out by the American military. Surrendering him to the Afghans wouldn't allow us the chance handle the situation ourselves and would encourage revenge. No justice could/would be served. Both of the references I made (Starship Troopers and Danny Deever) the offending soldier was executed by his own regiment.

Macadamnut - Nicely played
Hotlgneous Intruder - Given the seriousness of the topic I was trying to head off the mean-spirited snark before it go started. I forgot where I was posting, my apologies. Cue the welcometofark.jpg

Any volunteer soldier knows that he might die as a result of their deployment but they hope that their death might serve a higher purpose.
If the natives BELIEVE the soldier is guilty then his execution will serve a higher purpose, regardless of his actual guilt or culpability.
We should just sacrifice execute him to quell the anger of the occupied populace.
His death will serve a valid purpose.

kvinesknows: MSNBC is reporting there was a sexual relationship between the soldier and one of the murdered women
Link (new window)

You. Sonuva. biatch.

mainstreet62: Ahem......

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

Thanks.

Unless they're brown people whose neighbors turned them in for the reward offered by the CIA. Then it's... Go directly to Gitmo, No trial for you.

kvinesknows: MSNBC is reporting there was a sexual relationship between the soldier and one of the murdered women
Link (new window)

That was obvious BS, coming from a "news" outfit like MS NBC (new window)

kvinesknows: MSNBC is reporting there was a sexual relationship between the soldier and one of the murdered women
Link (new window)

The 'relationship' being that he skullfarked her after he shot her?

Is this unusual? I figured killing civilians, women, children etc. was par for the course there.
They're brown people, after all.

As ironic as this is going to sound, this is brutal, but when you train someone to become a killing machine and it goes to their head, they go powerhungry. Yes, this man is horrible for what he did and should be getting what he deserves, but some people definitely crack under the strain of war. I've read this sort of thing happened alot in Vietnam and such because the whole "kill the evil people" can be warped and distorted in someone's head who's somewhat off-kilter. If 'something' happens when they snap and go "Fark all of these little sand people" and open fire, its that killer instinct going a bit too feral. It isn't right, but thinking it's impossible or shouldn't be possible for someone to have seems a bit off.

It kindof falls under the same category (not magnitudewise but killer instinctwise) of the situation where those 3 soldiers desecrated the corpses of those terrorist soldiers by pissing on them. You train someone to ruthlessly go after terrorists/bad guys or what not, they aren't gonna care whether they desecrate the bodies if the training was "KILL THESE PEOPLE". It's the ugly side you get with war paradigms and while it isnt right, it's prone to happening one way or another.

I digress. Anyway, this dog needs to be put down. In any situation, taking your protective powers and using them to pepper several unarmed civilians such as women and children, is reason for us to give him over to the people there to do with as they please. A humane death seems too kind, and the villagers will have an appropriate punishment.

One Bad Apple: Has anyone ever released the shooter's name ?

Not yet and I'm surprised that it hasn't been leaked.

How many Vietnam vets does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

You don't know man, you weren't there

Cythraul: blacknite: as he should.

Yeah. Why wouldn't he? I'd even go farther than that and hand him over to Afghan authorities.

i agree. as i/we as a country would expect in return

9beers: One Bad Apple: Has anyone ever released the shooter's name ?

Not yet and I'm surprised that it hasn't been leaked.

Lets all hope Rush Limbaugh offers to take the punishment in place of the soldier. It might be a publicity stunt but we should take him up on the offer.

Old enough to know better: I'd be farking surprised. Seems like these guys usually just get a slap on the wrist.

You're thinking of the mercenary companies we had in Iraq who got off scott free with murder.

Remember that incident when a bunch of them gangraped one of their own contractors for about two days straight and didn't even get brought up on charges? Good times.

the democratic party is in to torture as well; they've been in control of the gov't while torture was occuring.

soakitincider: the democratic party is in to torture as well; they've been in control of the gov't while torture was occuring.

Sadly yes. Neither party is clean.

But one party seems to revel in it and the other at leasts gives lip service to universal human rights and consistency in their support for international standards of law.

As it is, the best we can do is hand him over to the Afgans. Anything else and we are supporting the actions of this man.

In any just society, you have to be able to allow justice even when you know the outcome is going to be against your desires.
This is a case where it must happen (to hand him over in some way) to help them understand we did not intend for this to happen and we are sorry for their loss.

/Kind of hard to make them understand anything close to that after all the death we have caused them.

On another note...
That is where this war went wrong. Besides not distracting us with Iraq, we should have unleashed our technologies upon them and slaughtered most of the country in the first year. This is based on the 911 cause, a quick and decisive (and a declaration by Congress) to go in full retaliation mode. Show them how bad we can really be without prejudice. Make them regret ever allowing the Taiban into their country and homes. I mean a real bloodbath.

Then over the next year, offer aid to the survivors and get out, leaving them with a warning against striking the US.

I'm not for war. I do not want to kill anyone. But in war, retaliation must be swift and brutal to make the people not want "that" to happen again. However, if we weren't farking with them in the first place, they wouldn't have had reason to attack.
Seriously, do you want your neighbor coming over to your house to fark your wife and beat your dogs and kids?

You have to assume this is a very tough decision for all involved. On one hand, you've got a soldier who's lost his humanity and committed unspeakable acts of mass murder. Innocent people have lost their lives here through a horrible act.

On the other hand, these are the same people who harbor terrorists that kill our soldiers for the unspeakable atrocity of burning a book.

Times like these, I don't know what I would do if I were them.

Barfmaker: [The] suspect in the attack served three tours of duty in Iraq before being deployed to Afghanistan

The sergeant was diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury after the wreck but was found fit for duty after treatment

Just use them up and when they break throw them away. Don't forget to act surprised.

This event, right here, should be the rallying cry for mental health care for our troops. We fark around with their heads, tell them they're the Chosen Ones, ask them to shoot but not shoot, and don't bother paying for jack shiat once they're out. This is not a good plan, and it will lead to worse than this.

/Support your troops: Treat them like humans.

What's 105,000 dead between friends?

palelizard: Just another crypto-Muslim carrying out the orders of FartBong0 the Caliph-in-Chief of the United States.

1) Muslims Kill each other all the time, so this shouldn't be news to anyone.
2) It ruins our public image there making it impossible to do our job, so we'll have to leave, just like the libtards want
3) It doesn't matter if we kill him, the crypto-Muslims will declare him a martyr and the Afghanis will never accept us
4) Osbama is going to use this to free up American troops to go help his fellow Muslim buddies in Syria

We need to start instituting our loyalty tests in our military and civilian lives. In the sharia Koran, it says a 'holy warrior' can do anything to stay alive and in secret to kill infidels except deny his faith and desecrate the Koran. We should start making everyone piss on the Koran as part of basic training then shoot anyone who hesitates. It will save us from PR nightmares and 'retribution' against real Americans from the sandies.

You know how I know you're from the south?

PsiChick: This event, right here, should be the rallying cry for mental health care for our troops. We fark around with their heads, tell them they're the Chosen Ones, ask them to shoot but not shoot, and don't bother paying for jack shiat once they're out. This is not a good plan, and it will lead to worse than this.

/Support your troops: Treat them like humans.

There's a difference between this and that.
The job is stressful, dangerous and can be thankless (despite the propaganda), but there seems to be a hidden danger because of all the little changes we've made in recent years.

Used to be that a front line soldier couldn't or wouldn't end up serving for more than two years or so. You'd see this sort of thing with professional soldiers (pirates, mercs, etc) but its rare among the rank and file.

During the world wars the same soldiers could be moved into the action faster and for longer periods. A problem still didn't crop up because we avoided long stretches of action or recurring deployments (noteworthy exception being Vietnam, where problems DID appear).
Now we've got kids who practically make a career out of skirmishing, Either in the military or as PMC's, and this kind of thing is happening more often.

Its just too much war for one lifetime.

As for this particular case: PSD or not its a pretty horrendous crime and the world is watching. Nothing less than the most extreme of consequences will do.
We may have made this monster, but the choices were all his.

The 4chan Psychiatrist: The 'relationship' being that he skullfarked her after he shot her?

I'm imagining some type of skullfarking 'Goldilocks and the Three Bears' scenario...

punistation: What's 105,000 dead between friends?

Upwards of 50 million civilians were killed during WWII. Where's your outrage over that?

Liberals - Totally against the death penalty unless its a soldier.

Look, this guy is either going to "commit suicide" while in military custody or face court martial and if found guilty sentenced to death. Obama will commute the sentence to life, regardless of the political (global or internal) cost.

Obama will not kill this guy. We have asked way too much of our volunteer forces and to kill off a guy who, at least in part, can attribute this action to injuries sustained in 4 combat tours with rules of engagement that move the bullseye off the enemy and puts it on our troops.

There was a US serviceman who was executed due to his serial killing of women in WWII.

way south: PsiChick: This event, right here, should be the rallying cry for mental health care for our troops. We fark around with their heads, tell them they're the Chosen Ones, ask them to shoot but not shoot, and don't bother paying for jack shiat once they're out. This is not a good plan, and it will lead to worse than this.

/Support your troops: Treat them like humans.

There's a difference between this and that.
The job is stressful, dangerous and can be thankless (despite the propaganda), but there seems to be a hidden danger because of all the little changes we've made in recent years.

Used to be that a front line soldier couldn't or wouldn't end up serving for more than two years or so. You'd see this sort of thing with professional soldiers (pirates, mercs, etc) but its rare among the rank and file.

During the world wars the same soldiers could be moved into the action faster and for longer periods. A problem still didn't crop up because we avoided long stretches of action or recurring deployments (noteworthy exception being Vietnam, where problems DID appear).


I watched Vietnam in HD and was amazed to learn that Search and Destroy missions could mean 30 to 45 days straight out in the bush with resupply by helicopter. I never knew it wasn't out the front gate for a day or 2 or 3 then back in the front gate. I can't imagine how tough that must have been.

TheShavingofOccam123: Obama will not kill this guy.

Even if Obama wins reelection, he'll be long out of office before this case makes it through the system. Afghans want this guy tried and executed and while that might happen, it will be 20 years down the road before it does.

Tell me about the rabbits again, George......

wambu: From the day I saw a US soldier exit his tank and place a US flag on Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad and watched the crowd react negatively, I though that the military might get a clue and provide better training and maybe a little shift in the military mindset.

Sadly no.

First of all, you're being a little overly dramatic about the flag on the statue. Secondly, what the fark does the military's mindset or SOP have to do with a lone soldier going off the deep end?

9beers: TheShavingofOccam123: Obama will not kill this guy.

Even if Obama wins reelection, he'll be long out of office before this case makes it through the system. Afghans want this guy tried and executed and while that might happen, it will be 20 years down the road before it does.

Considering the US military is still dealing with the Haditha incident, you're probably pretty close.

BunkoSquad: He still gets a prime-time speaking slot at the GOP convention first, though, right?

Of course. all military are good ol' boys rite?
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He was just an innocent kid who got in way over his head and since he was an American fighting in a forgien land, he should be absolved of all blame for shooting those people, even those women and children since they were likely on their way to become suicide bombers. So, when viewed from that light, he's almost a hero? Am I doing it right?

/I also can't stand these apologists who never seem to think that the U.S. should apologize for anything
// I say execute him. He's a cold blooked murderer who happened to wear a uniform and who not only killed innoncents for no apparent reason but he just endangered the lives of his fellow soliders (scratch, that, "former" colleagues) in Afghanistan by doing what he did. No tears will be shed.

liam76: Do you even know what his day job is?

Lets assume he goes on patrol, at night and kicks in doors as part of that, unless his "day job" also included killing anyone he found in the buildings he entered, then no this doesn't look anything like it. And if that was his job then I am pretty sure we would have heard of him before now.

I'm kinda thinking it's not his day job, because he didn't return to base and say "ok, Capt, what's next?" No, he returned to base and surrendered himself.

BunkoSquad: He still gets a prime-time speaking slot at the GOP convention first, though, right?

And, the answer is two. Two posts.

I alone am best: Liberals - Totally against the death penalty unless its a soldier.

Soldiers don't count. They volunteer to kill be people and risk being killed. Clearly they don't value human life, even their own. Why should we care?

What do we hope to accomplish in Afghanistan? A stable government? That simply is not going to happen with us there. Destroy the Taliban? That's even less likely. The only thing we're accomplishing by being there is killing more brown people and making even more brown people hate America forever. Don't fool yourself into thinking we're defending our freedoms. There are no threats to our freedoms there.

I alone am best: Liberals - Totally against the death penalty unless its a soldier.

I am as liberal as they come but i am all for the death penalty and abortion. I like to stay consistent.

I am also for personal freedom and gun ownership imagine that.

way south: PsiChick: This event, right here, should be the rallying cry for mental health care for our troops. We fark around with their heads, tell them they're the Chosen Ones, ask them to shoot but not shoot, and don't bother paying for jack shiat once they're out. This is not a good plan, and it will lead to worse than this.

/Support your troops: Treat them like humans.

There's a difference between this and that.
The job is stressful, dangerous and can be thankless (despite the propaganda), but there seems to be a hidden danger because of all the little changes we've made in recent years.

Used to be that a front line soldier couldn't or wouldn't end up serving for more than two years or so. You'd see this sort of thing with professional soldiers (pirates, mercs, etc) but its rare among the rank and file.

During the world wars the same soldiers could be moved into the action faster and for longer periods. A problem still didn't crop up because we avoided long stretches of action or recurring deployments (noteworthy exception being Vietnam, where problems DID appear).
Now we've got kids who practically make a career out of skirmishing, Either in the military or as PMC's, and this kind of thing is happening more often.

Its just too much war for one lifetime.

As for this particular case: PSD or not its a pretty horrendous crime and the world is watching. Nothing less than the most extreme of consequences will do.
We may have made this monster, but the choices were all his.

I agree with the sentiment most of the time, but if he's actually ill, there's a reason we've got the insanity defense. He needs a long stay in a mental hospital, not the death penalty.

/Though, yes, we should not be recalling soldiers every ten minutes.

From a new MSNBC article: The officials also said they've received reports that the soldier was having marital problems and had recently received a troubling letter or email from his wife.

Not to toot my own horn, but damn, I'm pretty good at this stuff. Maybe Bronymedic will now give me some props instead of calling me a moron and a troll for speculating that he went off over a domestic issue.

The article also says that they assembled a search party and found the SSG laying in a prone position somewhere, not that he turned himself in.

Link (new window)

9beers: From a new MSNBC article: The officials also said they've received reports that the soldier was having marital problems and had recently received a troubling letter or email from his wife.

Not to toot my own horn, but damn, I'm pretty good at this stuff. Maybe Bronymedic will now give me some props instead of calling me a moron and a troll for speculating that he went off over a domestic issue.

The article also says that they assembled a search party and found the SSG laying in a prone position somewhere, not that he turned himself in.

Link (new window)

bet the cheating whore feels pretty bad about sending a dear john letter now! that'll show her!

/dont know if true.. just playing the hate game

wambu: One soldier? Three soldiers? A dozen soldiers? A hundred soldiers? When do you think it begins to matter? To dismiss such behavior as "War is hell; atrocities happen" and to ignore any corporate responsibility because these are a few "lone soldiers gone bad" is disingenuous to the victims, the soldiers proudly serving their country according to the rules, and also our soldiers who go astray.

Who said it didn't matter? What I'm saying is that no matter what you do, there's no way to guarantee that a soldier or group of soldiers doesn't go off the deep end like this. As long as there are wars, shiat like this is going to be a part of them.

I've seen the horror. Horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that, but you have no right to judge me . It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face, and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and mortal terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces--it seems a thousand centuries ago--we went into a camp to inoculate it. The children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us, and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile--a pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it, I never want to forget. And then I realized--like I was shot...like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, "My God, the genius of that, the genius, the will to do that." Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they could stand that--these were not monsters, these were men, trained cadres, these men who fought with their hearts, who have families, who have children, who are filled with love--that they had this strength, the strength to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, then our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral and at the same time were able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling, without passion, without judgment--without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.