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(USA Today)   More and more doctors are standing up to parents who refuse to vaccinate their children and telling them to go fark themselves   (yourlife.usatoday.com) divider line 111
    More: Hero, whooping cough, vaccination schedule, vices, HPV Vaccine, pediatricians, vaccines, refuses, Brentwood  
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15802 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Mar 2012 at 9:51 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-03-13 10:04:32 AM
14 votes:
"Some kids do have a weaker immune system," she said. "In Morgan's case, her immune system was compromised. I don't know why. She wasn't able to handle the load. As a parent, I believe there are several factors in autism -- different cases. But in our case, I still strongly believe that was a factor in her autism."

"As a parent, I feel that 2" steel plate is a sufficient wall thickness for this pressure vessel."
"As a parent, I feel that three pounds per delay is a safe enough charge to ensure that we will not damage the adjacent parking garage."
"As a parent, I feel that 3000 psi concrete is strong enough for the pedestals for this new bridge."

Guess what, lady; all of those statements are just as stupid as the next.
2012-03-13 10:25:11 AM
5 votes:
The very fact that people are questioning the safety of a vaccine that prevents a horrible, horrible disease (such as polio) with regard to the extremely small chance of having a reaction to it, just goes to show how effective our vaccine program has been. If you'd actually witnessed the devastation this one disease has caused throughout history, there is no way you would not vaccinate your kids.

Unfortunately for a lot of people I think we won't see a difference in their beliefs until the disease makes a resurgence again. It's like a pendulum. Initially everyone got the vaccines because they knew the disease first hand. Now we're swinging back towards not vaccinating until people see the suffering it causes. Then we'll swing back to strong vaccinations again. Unfortunately, in that time a lot of children will die or become crippled. And they're the innocent ones. They didn't decide for themselves not to have the vaccine. Their parents (who probably had the shot) made the decision, and their children will pay for it.
2012-03-13 10:11:24 AM
5 votes:

gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."


Better a high fever from which they recover than polio, smallpox, mumps, etc. from which they die or are permanently, severely disabled.
2012-03-13 09:59:10 AM
5 votes:
As an adult, I can be held legally liable for knowingly spreading disease.

We should hold parents who don't vaccinate their kids to the same standards.
2012-03-13 09:17:22 AM
5 votes:
Why can't we do this more often with people who deny science and facts? It could radically change the current U.S. political landscape.
2012-03-13 11:01:59 AM
4 votes:
Here's what I don't get:

Dr. Evil - "I think vaccines cause autism. You should buy my book."
Jenny McCarthy - "I just read Dr. Evil's book and it says vaccines cause autism! My son got vaccines and then got autism!"
Stupid Parent - "Jenny McCarthy just said she read a book that vaccines cause autism. We got our son vaccinated and he got autism! So vaccines must cause autism!"
Stupider Parent - "I know someone who's kid got vaccinated and then got autism. We will NOT vaccinate our kids!"

Time Passes....

Medical Experts -
"We've tested this a thousand times and there is no link between vaccines and autism. Can we see your research, Dr. Evil?"
Dr. Evil - "Heh...yeah... see... turns out it was all bullcrap. I made it up to sell books...."
Jenny McCarthy - "Yeah, and it turns out that my kids doesn't really have autism, he's just shy and a little weird."
Stupid Parent - "B-b-b-b-but my kid still got autism! And since no one can explain why he got it, I'm still going to blame vaccines in order to make myself feel better!"
Stupider Parent - "I don't care what the facts say, vaccines cause autism. Just look at what happened to Stupid Parent's kid! I'm NOT vaccinating my kids!"

My feeling is that parents just want SOMETHING - ANYTHING - to blame. They had a scapegoat, but it was taken away. And rather than admit to being duped, they would rather continue the lie than admit that they are powerless when it comes to how their child develops genetically.

Vaccinate your kids.
2012-03-13 10:30:22 AM
4 votes:
Anti-vax is a modern mental disorder caused by generational amnesia.

Ask an older person to recall pre-1960s America where the fear of polio, measles, mumps, etc claimed family members and friends regularly. Heck, I remember kids and aduts with braces on their legs in the early '70s.

This latter day ignorance of medical advances which have spared millions of people from death or life-long disability is testament to our failed educational system and media to remind us of the past.
2012-03-13 10:14:45 AM
4 votes:
Logically, the antivaxers should have no problem with this, right?
I mean, if you're not going to trust science and medicine, wtf are you at the doctor's office for in the first place?
2012-03-13 10:02:29 AM
4 votes:

xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk


The flu shot is quite often ineffective. There are many different strains of flu virus, and the vaccine can only protect against a small portion of those. Each year a prediction is made about which strains will be the most prevalent that year, and the vaccine is made up in response.

The vaccine doesn't mean you won't catch the flu. It means you will be immunized against the predicted big ones that year. So you probably caught a different strain.
2012-03-13 09:57:36 AM
4 votes:
And then they spend the rest of the article giving more ammunition to the anti-vaccine crazies.

What is it with journalism today that they feel they have to give equal time to both sides even when one side is made up of murderous idiots?
2012-03-13 09:31:42 AM
4 votes:
This year I got my flu shot and the next day I broke my ankle. I'm not going to get any more flu shots.
2012-03-13 11:10:24 AM
3 votes:

sigpop: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

I have a similar story. My two year old didn't react well to the heap of vaccinations given in one visit. We spent a week in the hospital with a platelet count of 2k and she was diagnosed with ITP. She didn't respond to the standard treatments and had problems for about two years. She spent a few more days in the children's oncology ward for more treatments.

Spread the vaccinations out. There is no need to give multiple shots all in one appointment. Some of them are combinations of multiple vaccines, themselves, compounding the issue.


My daughter had her vaccinations all together at once. Nothing bad happened, except she cried for a few seconds after the shot. My anecdote cancels yours.
2012-03-13 10:54:23 AM
3 votes:

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.

There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone because "science said so" but, until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced.


You probably shouldn't get so upset about something you're completely ignorant about. It's not healthy.
Your body has to deal with germs and viruses every single day. That's not changing. Vaccines give your immune system a crash course in how to deal with particularly bad ones.

"NOT life-threatening"

americanhistory.si.edu

Polio killed 10,000 kids and disfigured and paralyzed MILLIONS.
2012-03-13 10:19:04 AM
3 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.


Absolutely! Liberty for everyone. Including the people who don't want to be exposed to someone who hasn't been vaccinated. So go ahead, don't vaccinate your kids. But accept the consequences like an adult -- your choices for doctors, schools, etc, may be considerably more limited as a result. Liberty goes both ways.
2012-03-13 10:13:08 AM
3 votes:
Time to post this Penn & Teller linkage again, I see.

Link (new window)
2012-03-13 10:09:26 AM
3 votes:

xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk


one of two things -
1) If you got sick shortly after receiving the vaccine you weren't really sick. Your body mounted an immune response to the antigens within the vaccine. Some people get that worse than others, but its nothing contagious, its your body mounting a WTFBBQ response to what it perceives is a foreign invader. The material in vaccines is either completely deactivated or attenuated (pathogenic genes removed/inactivated) so the odds range from completely impossible to ridiculously low that you would get sick directly from the shot.

2) I worked in in a Flu reference center for about a year doing diagnostics on samples recieved and testing to determine vaccine components. The vaccine compenents are determined approximately 6 months prior to an actual flu season. Thus, the flu vaccine composition is a product of mapping out world wide prevalence and predicting what the most likely picture of the most circulated flu's will be six months from your current data. They generally do really well, all things considered with an average coverage rate of around 80%. Some flu seasons are wacky though and I saw data for one year where coverage was 50% (and one year where it was 90+ as well)

/Long story short: it could easily have been a different strain, or you didn't mount that great of an immune response from the vaccine and your friend was shedding virus like a fiend.

//the more you know
2012-03-13 10:08:57 AM
3 votes:

gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."


Citation needed.

There are adverse reactions to vaccination, but AFAICT three shots at once makes no difference, and 'all the time' is pretty unlikely. Don't you think there would be a lot more stories, and from people who aren't crazy-whacko-dingbats, if this happened 'all the time' ?

As it is, most kids get nothing like that, and compared to the real possibility of DEATH from the childhood diseases this stuff protects against...

I'm sorry you had a stressful time, but anecdotes are not and never will be data.
2012-03-13 10:08:29 AM
3 votes:

Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.


Who mentioned Christians? Do you feel that insecure about it that you need to bring it in to a discussion about vaccination?
2012-03-13 10:03:31 AM
3 votes:
People that don't get their kids vaccinated should have the kids removed and then they should be jailed for child endangerment.
2012-03-13 10:03:30 AM
3 votes:

gearfab_bastad: Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up.


Totally. Have you ever met anyone with polio? That shiat was allll Hollywood.
2012-03-13 10:01:22 AM
3 votes:

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Jenny McCarthy has killed more children than the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.


Really? She's a bit of fluff with nice tits and ass.
If someone is foolish enough to take advice from her, then I think the blames lies with them.

Also, where are you getting your numbers from?
2012-03-13 09:58:23 AM
3 votes:
Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.
2012-03-13 09:47:29 AM
3 votes:

Diogenes: This year I got my flu shot and the next day I broke my ankle. I'm not going to get any more flu shots.


Your a idiot. You should have also gotten a broken ankle shot while you were at the doctor.
2012-03-13 11:57:16 AM
2 votes:
these discussions get me so frustrated, because it is obvious that a lot of people don't understand how vaccines work.

"I got a flu shot, but still got the flu, wtf?"
well, yeah. if you're exposed to the flu virus, that's that. the vaccine will lessen the severity and duration of your illness, but it's not a magic shield that prevents the virus from getting into your body, especially if you're surrounded by coughing, germy co-workers. Influenza is a pretty nasty virus - there's a reason we vaccinate for it, because it is quite capable of killing people (old people, in particular) and leading to complications like pneumonia.

the flu virus is also one of the most rapidly mutating viruses (HIV is the worst), so it's very possible that if you DO get sick, even after a flu shot, that you contracted one of the other strains. remember the Swine Flu panic? H1N1 flu? that wasn't some crazy mutant flu - it was one of the alternate forms of the flu virus that happened to peak during the summer (non-flu season) and caused severe disease in a different population (young adults, rather than old people).

/grad student in immunology
//knows what's up
2012-03-13 11:45:08 AM
2 votes:

SpectroBoy: [www.cdc.gov image 380x230]


Bears repeating


Indeed.

I always like the smallpox example. It killed two million people out of an infected population of 15 million people in 1967. It is estimated to have killed 300-500 million people during the 20th century alone.

Approximate infections for 2012? 0. Approximate deaths? 0. Why? It was declared eradicated in 1979 following an aggressive vaccination campaign.

This is a virus that has existed through all of human history. It is THE disease responsible for devastating entire Empires of people in the New World. And we killed it.

Vaccination Works.
2012-03-13 11:23:34 AM
2 votes:

kidgenius: ciberido:
So I don't have the right to tell you you can't drive while intoxicated?

There are two parts to what you said.

First part is being intoxicated sick/diseased. You are merely affecting yourself. Knock yourself out.

Second part is driving going out in public. Now you are endangering my life, my children's life, and the health and safety of every other individual on the road.

The first is ok. The second is morally reprehensible.


Done.
2012-03-13 11:18:01 AM
2 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Andromeda: Good for these doctors.



No. It's not.

This is in the same class as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion, or a pharmacist refusing to dispense birth control pills. (And it should eventually be in the same class as a doctor refusing to administer euthanasia when that becomes legal, if the patient asks for it.)

It's also in the same class as doctors forcing circumcisions on newborn boys, pressuring their mothers to accept the surgery (remembering some anecdotes from the 'rabbi gives three babies herpes by sucking their penises during circumcision, causing death' thread).
It's also in the same class as 'I won't give n*g** blood to a white' during a transfusion, back in the day.


If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.


Those are all choices that effect the individual. Some moron not vaccinating endangers my children, your children, your neighbors children, their friends, their school mates, etc.

People need to stop thinking about vaccines as an individual's choice. Thats not the farking point of a vaccine and vaccination itself effects everyone with any direct or indirect contact with the vaccinated individual.
2012-03-13 11:16:30 AM
2 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu:
If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.


The parents wishes are respected. The doctors won't give the vaccines....and then you will be asked to not return.

Um....doctors DO make judgement calls. ALL THE TIME. They judge which course of action is the best for a particular condition.

In addition, if you choose not to vaccinate, you have now basically said you don't trust modern medicine. If you don't trust modern medicine, why would I as a doctor want anything to do with you.

More importantly, you now pose a risk to my other patients who are coming into my office. I would take every step I could to ensure the health of my other patients.
2012-03-13 11:13:49 AM
2 votes:

budrojr: The whole vaccine thing is still very much under scientific review.


archive.hhs.gov
Jury's still out.

Hey, maybe it wasn't massive public inoculation. Maybe the disease just got bored and left.
2012-03-13 10:59:18 AM
2 votes:

theknuckler_33: xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

I am not a medical professional either, but my understanding is that it is supposed to pretty much be 'bullet proof' against the strains of the virus that it is designed for and unfortunately, that is not an exact science. I don't know the methods behind it, but based on knowledge of past years flu seasons, etc., they can make a pretty good guess at the kinds of mutations the flu might undergo from one season to the next and develop the vaccine for those mutations. If things don't go the way they expect, we have a much worse flu season since the flu going around is a bit different than what the vaccine helped your body defend itself against.

I think something like this just happened a few years ago when the vaccine was pretty ineffective, in a general sense, over the course of the whole flu season.


General process works like this:
There are four main collaborating centers around the world. There are then a large number of smaller participants and centers. Samples are sent int othe smaller centers and processed there. A statistically representative proportion are then sent to the main collaborating centers.

The viruses are received, cataloged by location, and then "grown up." They are grown in cell culture and/or eggs. Once a virus is grown it is tested for similarity against a panel of reference viruses that have high circulatory prevalence past and present. There are anywhere from 10-14 of these reference viruses.

This process takes place over several months until thousands of samples are gathered. I was one of 4 people in Atlanta and when flu season started really cooking we would could handle 160 viruses/week in culture and a bunch more in eggs. You would run the comparison tests with an average of between 100-150 different viruses each compared against the 12 reference strains.

Once a certain time line has been reached the data from all of the comparison tests at each collaborating center is then analyzed. Some smaller centers also contribute data because collaborating centers also had to manufacture the comparison test kits. Based on statistical trends like: geographic movement, infection time lines, prevalence, etc. a prediction is made as to what strains are most likely going to be still circulating six months from now when the vaccine production is finished.

There ya go. Hopefully that erased some of the mystery behind what gets put into that syringe biannually (Northern/Southern hemispheres have opposite flu seasons so the vaccine can vary between the two)
2012-03-13 10:56:29 AM
2 votes:

Splinshints:

It's just another example of the anti-intellectualism and baseless sense of superiority that has invaded the American mindset.


"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
2012-03-13 10:54:16 AM
2 votes:

meanmutton: Mad Scientist: Still no vaccine for creationism.

Remember, when conservatives are anti-science, they think stupid shiat about the origins of life.

When liberals are anti-science, they pump they let their kids die of measles, deny them medicine in favor of "herbal remedies", and smother babies in their sleep.


When conservatives are anti-science, they persecute intellectuals actively and oppress people that do not think like them because of what creation myth they choose to believe.

When liberals are anti-science, Darwin catches up with them.
2012-03-13 10:24:01 AM
2 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.


"I don't think people should be able to fire automatic weapons indiscriminately in public, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you."

You don't have to right to do whatever you want when what you're doing has no discernible benefit and poses obvious risks to innocent bystanders. This is not a new concept.
2012-03-13 10:23:44 AM
2 votes:
www.cdc.gov
2012-03-13 10:20:58 AM
2 votes:
*saving throw against antivax trolls*

The Wakefield "research" was a complete fraud, never mind a ridiculously small sample.

I'll take my discomfort with social settings and tendency to shut everyone else out over pertussis and polio any day of the week. Maybe one of these parents who yammers on about "families suffer the paaaaaaain of autism!" should try asking their "broken" child whether they'd prefer tetanus, assuming they still believe a causal relationship exists between some unidentified component of some vaccines when a correlational one still hasn't been demonstrated.
2012-03-13 10:20:50 AM
2 votes:

You Are All Sheep: Ask those Tuskegee fellows about getting vaccines.


Tuskegee (new window) did not involve any vaccines, which is why it was such a horrible thing. It was doctors observing the natural progression of syphilis when penicillin was actually available.


Scientists are not trying to conspire against the general population, we're trying to kill the things that kill people. And people like you spread ignorance which can be almost as dangerous as the diseases we fight.
2012-03-13 10:20:13 AM
2 votes:

Thunderpipes: Aarontology: As an adult, I can be held legally liable for knowingly spreading disease.

We should hold parents who don't vaccinate their kids to the same standards.

Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?

Sucks giving my little boy the shots, but I am a reasonable person. You really do have to be a farking moron to not do it. He got 3 of em at 6 months, was not a happy camper. Stick a boob in his mouth, he is fine.

Already gave him the liberalism shot, he has a job at 7 months old.


boob and tylenol - .8mL right then and there. It'll cut down on the fever and soreness - - - Which isn't really a big deal unless you like to sleep, because a 6 month old with two sore thighs doesn't sleep.

/6 mo well visit last week - little dude weighs 20lbs
/nothing but boob for the first 5 months - now boob and some solids
/my wife rocks for putting up with that and pumping 3 times a day a work
/breast milk, imho, is more imortantant than the shots, but get the damn things anyway.
/slashies linked to autism
2012-03-13 10:16:19 AM
2 votes:
I really just don't understand why this is even an option unless you have some health problem that precludes you from receiving the vaccine. Don't get your kids vaccinated just because you're stupid, lose your kids to CPS and got to prison. End of story.

You live in a society. You are not alone. You choose to do this. As a result, your "rights" may be very slightly curtailed when they clash with the rights of the people you choose to live around. This is not a new thing. For example, your "right" to be an incredulous conspiracy nut and eschew every intelligent option open to you regarding the health of your children is quite easily overrun by the rights of the people around you to not become infected by easily preventable diseases just because you choose not to use your mental faculties to make smart and obvious decisions.

Like the right to own and shoot a firearm, you have the right to make your own health decisions. And like the responsibility to safely own and shoot a firearm, you have the responsibility to make intelligent health decisions. Your right to make your own health choices ends when those choices start threatening other people for no valid reason.

Outlaw anti-vaxxers.
2012-03-13 10:13:51 AM
2 votes:

Gothnet: gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

Citation needed.

There are adverse reactions to vaccination, but AFAICT three shots at once makes no difference, and 'all the time' is pretty unlikely. Don't you think there would be a lot more stories, and from people who aren't crazy-whacko-dingbats, if this happened 'all the time' ?

As it is, most kids get nothing like that, and compared to the real possibility of DEATH from the childhood diseases this stuff protects against...

I'm sorry you had a stressful time, but anecdotes are not and never will be data.


Thank you. I was trying to formulate this thought but kept failing to do so in a manner that did not include words like "moron", "imbecile", "delusions of intellect" and "failure to recognize one's own average, at best, intellect." I fully recognize your formulation is the polite and proper approach, and thus has a much better chance at being heard.
2012-03-13 10:11:23 AM
2 votes:

xalres: It's not going to matter. Some parents just can't accept the fact that someone knows more about how to take care of their kid than they do. It'll start to matter when all pediatricians lay the smack down on such stupidity.


These are the same morans that defend their unruly kids' behavior in restaurants and on planes. They have zero sense of responsibility to socialize their kids to behave and participate in society for the common good.

It's like expecting a color blind person to describe and replicate a color palette correctly -- they can't do it, they're incapable of utilizing a sense they lack.

/not hating on the colorblind as its not their fault
2012-03-13 10:09:17 AM
2 votes:

xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk


Flu shots, IMO, are pointless unless you have a weakened immune system, are a child, or elderly. Why? Well, flu shots are typically made to attack *last year's flu virus* and may not affect any new mutated versions of the flu virus you encounter after your shot.

Now there *is* a small chance that the same strain of flu from last year is still around and it will help you fight it, but stop being a pansy and let your immune system do what it was designed for. -Seriously, if we can't let our bodies fight small things like the flu, we're just making it more dangerous when there *isn't* a flu shot next time. -Same thing goes for hand sanitation out there not being used by someone doing surgery. Any idea why we have resistant bacteria now? And the same thing can be said about the overuse of antibiotics... You don't need them for a cold, suck it up and get some orange juice.

On the other hand, immunizations for children for serious things like mumps, measles, rubella, etc. are obviously important and very necessary. -Try not to compare these to flu shots.
2012-03-13 10:07:52 AM
2 votes:

hinten: And then they spend the rest of the article giving more ammunition to the anti-vaccine crazies.

What is it with journalism today that they feel they have to give equal time to both sides even when one side is made up of murderous idiots?


It's a failed attempt at balance. They believe that to avoid the appearance of bias they must give equal time to both sides of a story as if each of them carries equal weight and is equally as valid. I think this is why sources like NPR are perceived to have a liberal bias because, for example, when they do a piece on Obama's economic plan they don't also have some bloviating idiot screaming about WHAR BIRF CERTIFICT WHE??.
2012-03-13 10:04:08 AM
2 votes:
i39.tinypic.com
2012-03-13 10:02:35 AM
2 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.


It's a little bit more complicated than just the parents' right to decide whether or not to vaccinate their children.

Herd Immunity: the more people choose not to vaccinate, the more it endangers the greater population.
2012-03-13 10:02:31 AM
2 votes:
It's not going to matter. Some parents just can't accept the fact that someone knows more about how to take care of their kid than they do. It'll start to matter when all pediatricians lay the smack down on such stupidity.
2012-03-13 09:57:32 AM
2 votes:
Jenny McCarthy has killed more children than the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
2012-03-13 09:56:43 AM
2 votes:
I wish the government would quarantine all of the anti vaccination people to one city and let them take care of each other.
2012-03-13 04:02:00 PM
1 votes:

namegoeshere: Ruiizu: I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

Amish also have a limited genepool, as they marry within the community. So it is more likely that they are not passing on the genes than that it has anything at all to do with vaccines.


They actually are vaccinated with regularity. It's more likely social factors and genetic predisposition.

Link (new window)
2012-03-13 01:13:24 PM
1 votes:

Ant: Satanic_Hamster: "Some kids do have a weaker immune system," she said. "In Morgan's case, her immune system was compromised. I don't know why. She wasn't able to handle the load. As a parent, I believe there are several factors in autism -- different cases. But in our case, I still strongly believe that was a factor in her autism."

"As a parent, I feel that 2" steel plate is a sufficient wall thickness for this pressure vessel."
"As a parent, I feel that three pounds per delay is a safe enough charge to ensure that we will not damage the adjacent parking garage."
"As a parent, I feel that 3000 psi concrete is strong enough for the pedestals for this new bridge."

Guess what, lady; all of those statements are just as stupid as the next.

Awesome!


As a parent, I feel that my child is comprised of Higgs boson particles.
Ant
2012-03-13 01:00:35 PM
1 votes:

gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give right after three vaccinations in a single shot.


Correlation does not equal causation. Learn it, live it, know it.

The fact that your child got sick after getting a shot does not mean that your child got sick because of the shot.
2012-03-13 12:56:30 PM
1 votes:

Gothnet:

And what about when you encounter those that deliberately spread misinformation for their own gain? (Wakefield)
Or indeed those that spread misinformation under false illusions, and then belligerently defend these illusions in the face of contradictory fact? (McCarthy)
And what about times when, like with global warming or evolution, you can't help but step back and marvel at the clinical grade stupidity that's flowing from them? And how it repeats, time and time and time again despite each and every minute point being precisely and exactly refuted?

In a clinical setting with a physician, you're right, and it sounds like you had a great doctor. On the internet... bah, the internet is for snark, and if the record shows anti-vaxxers getting their asses handed to them in factual debate, so much the better. There's no arguing with people who don't believe in evidence and facts, but at least when they can be exposed for such then others who prefer actual knowledge over fear and conjecture can see that the 'debate' is yet another clash of reason vs. superstition.


And how do you counter the spread of misinformation? If you present your case calmly and without an obvious agenda you might just convince some people who are on the fence. If you act like a dick because you are insecure enough to need the fleeting feeling of superiority then you will turn people against you regardless of the righteousness of your position.

Wicked Chinchilla: All vaccines go through the same approval process from the FDA. If they are approved, they are safe to use, end-of-story.


Why do you have such blind faith in the FDA? It is made up of people, it is headed by a political appointee. You might as well say "Since priests are representatives of God's will on earth what they say is always the truth, end of story". I bet that statement sounded ignorant to you, well that is exactly how your statement sounded to me. A quick google of "FDA mistakes" brings up tons of "legitimate" news stories. Instead of declaring your one truth absolute produce your evidence and let people make their own decisions.
2012-03-13 12:53:24 PM
1 votes:
LaraAmber Smartest
Funniest
2012-03-13 12:43:55 PM


doubled99: So what does cause Autism, then?


Right now a lot of research is going into finding a cause during development in the uterus. Prenatal exposure to anti-depressants and other chemicals that alter the brain chemistry are hot research topics.


So in the absense of any real knowledge of the cause, is an (admittedly) off the wall theory really the height of stupidity?
2012-03-13 12:48:37 PM
1 votes:
It's not as simple as "pro science" and "anti science". Some vaccines are effective and have a good benefit/risk ratio. Some don't. The pertussis vaccine is not very effective and it's limited protection wears off in 3-5 years. (Per CDC) Pertussis is also endemic; there is no prospect of eradication. This means that the herd immunity effect is absent. People with lingering coughs should get tested and avoid contact with newborns. Many of them have pertussis, even if they received a vaccination 20 years ago that may not have provided immunity even then.

My wife and I vaccinate our kids for lots of things. We vaccinate for things our kids are unlikely to contract, like polio, because we feel an obligation to participate in its eradication. We do not vaccinate with everything Big Pharma wants to sell regardless of safety, efficacy and utility. Doctors don't have time to do science. They all take pitches in the form of sponsored junkets and lunches from drug reps. That's not science, it's marketing and docs are as susceptible as anybody. They are also predisposed to do something rather than not do things.
2012-03-13 12:47:16 PM
1 votes:

LaraAmber: doubled99: So what does cause Autism, then?


Right now a lot of research is going into finding a cause during development in the uterus. Prenatal exposure to anti-depressants and other chemicals that alter the brain chemistry are hot research topics.


I would put hard money on their being a complex genetic component as well. For something that has been around as a diagnosed condition as long as autism has and no clear cause determined I doubt there is going to be a eureka moment. Considering the variability of how severe a case of autism can be it wouldn't be shocking to me if it were similar to cancer in how there are a whole host of genes that can cascade down in various ways to cause it.

Initial genetic vulnerability combined with environmental pushes would be my best guess.
2012-03-13 12:37:15 PM
1 votes:
The problem with vaccines isnt medical or distrust of science. Its distrust of the companies that make them. If pharmaceutical companies can make laws that say they are immune to lawsuits, they can and will cut corners to make money.
2012-03-13 12:31:19 PM
1 votes:

sigpop:
I, myself, have had low platelet counts when I was ill. I was hospitalized for a pneumonia last year and my counts were under 40k and I had abnormal bruising where IVs were inserted. I believe I have an uncle that was diagnosed with ITP, as well, so there are probably family-related factors.


Then maybe the statement should be made "make sure you discuss with your doctor any pre-existing conditions or family history that makes you more likely to have a reaction to vaccines". That is reasonable and makes sense. Pushing everyone to spread out shots (causing more costs for the insurance companies and making it harder for parents to get appointments and have the time off) is not reasonable. It would be the equivalent of someone saying "because my kids have egg allergies, no one should get the typhoid vaccine."
2012-03-13 12:18:12 PM
1 votes:
My question for the "vaccines cause autism" crowd. Why have we not seen one case of an adult or teenager going in for boosters or vaccinations before visiting a foreign country come out of the doctor's office with autism? Something magical about puberty that protects against autism? Okay kids get shots all through elementary school, where are the 8 year olds who were fine one day and autistic the next?
2012-03-13 12:03:25 PM
1 votes:

MzUnderstood: Ok, I lied, here's another one that was posted on fb right after I trolled here for a moment. What a co-inky-dink.

http://www.NaturalNews.com/Vaccines_Get_the_Full_Story.html

The admins just green this stuff to watch the shiat fly. Oh, and give all you farkers something to do.


Oh hell, any idiot who believes what they read on Natural News deserves what they get. So go buy more vitamins and pretend germ theory doesn't exist. Just keep your filthy child out of my schools and waiting rooms.
2012-03-13 11:56:00 AM
1 votes:
well we can just take the recent pertussis outbreaks as an example. Funny that they are occurring in people that have ALREADY BEEN VACCINATED AGAINST IT. But everyone should get vaccines because they are effective.

Its amazing to me that so many people are so willing to be spoon-fed bullshiat and pseudoscience by a for-profit medical establishment, most of which is now designed to push drugs for the pharm companies. But go on, get all your shots, dummies. dumb people are easier to control anyway. now where did I put that remote?
2012-03-13 11:55:37 AM
1 votes:

MzUnderstood: Ok, I lied, here's another one that was posted on fb right after I trolled here for a moment. What a co-inky-dink.

http://www.NaturalNews.com/Vaccines_Get_the_Full_Story.html

The admins just green this stuff to watch the shiat fly. Oh, and give all you farkers something to do.

Somewhere back in all these posts was someone saying that adverse reactions, like 106º fevers don't happen all the time, as the Doc said. Well. Sorry to tell you, yes, they do. Visit any mommy blog to find out. You're obviously not a mom or a parent.

/soapbox
//get off now
///does anyone really give a shiat about this?


Its a mommy blog. You automatically have a selection bias because people who had problems have a far greater incentive to post and ask for advice than someone whose kid had no reactions at all.

The Doctor is also facing a selection bias because he is treating patients who requires help. He is also at a large children's hospital so he is going to get a higher degree of specialized cases when parents push the red panic button and burn rubber to the ER as opposed to their neighborhood doc. You know who don't require help and far outstrip severe reactions? People with zero or minor reactions.

The plural of anecdote isn't data.

Severe reactions to vaccines are reportable illness, which means incidence of it occuring is required/recomended to be sent onward to CDC/NIH or someone (not sure who). Because of record keeping involved with numbers of vaccines bought/used we also know the total number of doses given out in a given year. THIS is data. Every single year a panel of experts reviews this data and asks the question: "do we need to change the schedule?"

Every. Single. Year.

This stuff isn't pulled out of a hat or determined via dartboard. Its cold, dispassionate numbers and statistics. I know, from personal experience, that it sucks to be on the receiving end of an unlikely event. But the fact that it happened to YOU doesn't increase the odds of it occuring to the person next to you. Everyone rolls the dice everyday. Depending on your body, immune system, or health the odds are more, or less, in your favor.

Good Luck. Thats Life.
2012-03-13 11:54:34 AM
1 votes:

MzUnderstood: Visit any mommy blog to find out.


No. I'm fairly certain that the more time spent on mommy blogs talking about the little darling's poopy, eye color, or temper tantrums is less time spent being an effective mommy. Compound that with confirmation bias, end of the world panic, and catty mommies trying to one up each other. I'm too good a parent to visit a mommy blog. Fark is, at least occasionally, educational.
2012-03-13 11:52:29 AM
1 votes:

MzUnderstood: Visit any mommy blog to find out. You're obviously not a mom or a parent.


I'm a daddy, not a mommy. But, I sure as hell don't need to go to any blog to proclaim my parenting virtues, condemn others, or listen to anyone else try to extol their own. I also don't want to hear about how special anyone else's snowflake is, or listen to their idiotic ramblings. I'm not a doctor, so I tend to follow the advice prescribed by those who have been properly educated and practice medicine on a daily basis. Do reactions to vaccines occur? Sure, it's a possibility, and quite rare. So no, they don't happen "all the time", but from "time to time", on occasion, across the TENS OF MILLIONS of children being vaccinated. Besides, you are going to hear more people going "OMG OMG OMG MY SICK BABY" instead of "Just got vaccine today. Everything's copasetic". And the negative stuff gets more attention anyways.
2012-03-13 11:50:45 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.

There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone because "science said so" but, until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced.


You show me peer reviewed evidence of your claims, and I'll hand in my MD. Patients like you make my life, and the life of my colleagues miserable because no matter what we present to you or how we apporach this problem with you, your delusions never seem to waver. I'm thinking of starting the next anti-vaccine parent I meet on seroquel. Fix their delusions and their generally obnoxious demanour to boot.
2012-03-13 11:48:29 AM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.


I hope you are trolling. But just in case...

The difference is that gays, blacks, etc are NOT A THREAT TO OTHER PATIENTS whereas un-vaccinated children may be.

Please TRY to understand before responding.
2012-03-13 11:44:35 AM
1 votes:
And another thing: Why do these journalists insist on getting "both sides" of the issue? "Hmm... we've heard from several respected doctors on the subject, we must now give equal time to a random wacko who believes that anecdote equals data."
2012-03-13 11:44:08 AM
1 votes:

MzUnderstood: Well... one more.

My midwife's first two kids NOT vaccinated. Third one was on her second set. All went to bed normal. Third one woke up sick. Died a week later from meningitis. Other two who were not vaccinated did not get it. God's will? Natural selection? Vaccination induced? Who knows?


My friend raised two identical twins. One was vaccinated and one was not (he s a suck fark). 20 years later the vaccinated one was killed by a pimp for not paying the hooker. He blames the vaccination to this day. . . .
2012-03-13 11:41:21 AM
1 votes:

inner ted: and we all know that data can never be corrupted.

please stop questioning the establishment.

don't you know that when you hear an opposing view or example, you are to ram your head up your ass and call them dingbats? that way you can discount anything you don't agree with.

science. it's not like religion at all.



Please provide me some opposing data, papers, studies etc.
Will be happy to change opinion.
2012-03-13 11:40:19 AM
1 votes:

Cythraul: FLMountainMan: Cythraul: Why can't we do this more often with people who deny science and facts? It could radically change the current U.S. political landscape.

Why can't we do this more often with people who use incredibly simplistic methods to categorize people?

You sound like a Republican. lawlz.


Better than just sounding ignorant. Seriously. How simple-minded are you that every single issue you face you have to label those who disagree with you as being members of some political party and therefore marginalized? I actually lobby for the left and have done more to promote progressive causes in the last three months than your lifetime of impotent monkey-at-a-keyboard whining. And that experience of lobbying reinforced what is obvious to most people in this thread - political parties aren't your favorite goddamned football team and their supporters aren't automatically your friends or your enemies.

I'm pro-vaccine, but I wish people like you would just sit down, shut up, and let the grown-ups talk. You're the ultimate tu quoque argument.
2012-03-13 11:26:45 AM
1 votes:
Look I think the anti vaccine crowd are generally a bunch of idiots. My cool story:

My wife was on the jenny mccarthy bandwagon for a while and I humored her for a little while. We didn't get vaccinations at the hospital but on our first doctor's visit the doctor said that hospitals use lower quality vaccine because it is cheaper. I have no idea whether or not that is correct. Also he gave us a list of vaccines and told us the severity and statistical chances of each outcome. So he talked to us like adults, gave us his facts, showed us what to research to figure it out for ourselves. And we eventually got all of the shots but he told us that it was OK to spread them out over several visits, to minimize the possibility of side effects from any one series of shots. Maybe he was just patronizing us or maybe he wanted to charge for multiple visits. The point is that he got the shots in my kids and made my wife comfortable with the whole thing without being preachy or condescending.

The reality is that life is too complicated to know anything for certainty, and the group of people who you implicitly trust are in the exact position to abuse that trust. The only thing a person can do is make decisions for themselves based on the information they have, and it is the job of parents to do the same for their kids.

You might not like their decisions that doesn't matter, that is the price of freedom. It doesn't help anything to be snarky or look down your noses at the people you consider ignorant. If you really wanted to help you would be polite, provide evidence, and hope you are convincing enough. Otherwise you are just being a dick.
2012-03-13 11:21:04 AM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: No. It's not.

This is in the same class as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion, or a pharmacist refusing to dispense birth control pills. (And it should eventually be in the same class as a doctor refusing to administer euthanasia when that becomes legal, if the patient asks for it.)

It's also in the same class as doctors forcing circumcisions on newborn boys, pressuring their mothers to accept the surgery (remembering some anecdotes from the 'rabbi gives three babies herpes by sucking their penises during circumcision, causing death' thread).

It's also in the same class as 'I won't give n*g** blood to a white' during a transfusion, back in the day.

If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.




False. It puts other patients and staff at risk, plus it compromises any sort of trust relationship - the patient is already refusing some of the best advice the doctor has to give.

Just as it's wrong to force people to be vaccinated against their will (though I don't believe it's wrong to exclude them from public schools if they refuse), it's wrong to force doctors to treat people (discrimination laws aside).
2012-03-13 11:19:09 AM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Andromeda: Good for these doctors.



No. It's not.

This is in the same class as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion, or a pharmacist refusing to dispense birth control pills. (And it should eventually be in the same class as a doctor refusing to administer euthanasia when that becomes legal, if the patient asks for it.)

It's also in the same class as doctors forcing circumcisions on newborn boys, pressuring their mothers to accept the surgery (remembering some anecdotes from the 'rabbi gives three babies herpes by sucking their penises during circumcision, causing death' thread).

It's also in the same class as 'I won't give n*g** blood to a white' during a transfusion, back in the day.

If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.


I'm desperately trying to figure out how you're conflating doctors pushing medically HARMFUL or NEUTRAL procedures based on their OWN ideology, with a doctor arguing against leaving a kid vulnerable to disease.

"Doctor, my kid is here in your office because I want you to CLEAN the wound. My religion is against sutures. I know it looks bad, but we're going to duct tape that sucker right up when we leave."
"Uh, that's a ridiculously terrible idea, and your kid could lose his entire damn arm."
"YOU CAN'T QUESTION ME! MY PARENTAL INSTINCTS TRUMP YOUR EDUCATION!"
2012-03-13 11:17:37 AM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Andromeda: Good for these doctors.



No. It's not.

This is in the same class as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion, or a pharmacist refusing to dispense birth control pills. (And it should eventually be in the same class as a doctor refusing to administer euthanasia when that becomes legal, if the patient asks for it.)

It's also in the same class as doctors forcing circumcisions on newborn boys, pressuring their mothers to accept the surgery (remembering some anecdotes from the 'rabbi gives three babies herpes by sucking their penises during circumcision, causing death' thread).

It's also in the same class as 'I won't give n*g** blood to a white' during a transfusion, back in the day.

If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.



No, in this case doctors who refuse to see unvaccinated kids are protecting the kids that they already have in their practices. Since the first tenet of medicine is "above all, do no harm," they have a duty to not expose their patients to potential vectors of disease. No doctor is required to take on a new patient, and no doctor is required to provide care to a patient who refuses to comply with the doctor's recommendations. That would be stupid.

In the other cases you're talking about, you're talking about a third party refusing to perform a service that has already been agreed upon by the principle parties. It's not the same thing at all.
2012-03-13 11:17:27 AM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Andromeda: Good for these doctors.



No. It's not.

This is in the same class as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion, or a pharmacist refusing to dispense birth control pills. (And it should eventually be in the same class as a doctor refusing to administer euthanasia when that becomes legal, if the patient asks for it.)

It's also in the same class as doctors forcing circumcisions on newborn boys, pressuring their mothers to accept the surgery (remembering some anecdotes from the 'rabbi gives three babies herpes by sucking their penises during circumcision, causing death' thread).

It's also in the same class as 'I won't give n*g** blood to a white' during a transfusion, back in the day.

If the parents don't want to vaccinate, then the parents wishes MUST be respected. Either doctors must respect patient wishes............................ or doctors should be allowed to make judgement calls during ALL procedures, including abortion, even if that means the doctor decides not to administer.


I repeat to you:

Okay then. But don't bring un-immunized kids to the playground or the bounce park or to day care or restaurants or school or stores or the library or anyplace else where they may encounter anybody who may then have contact with a child too young to get immunized.
2012-03-13 11:15:25 AM
1 votes:

sigpop: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

I have a similar story. My two year old didn't react well to the heap of vaccinations given in one visit. We spent a week in the hospital with a platelet count of 2k and she was diagnosed with ITP. She didn't respond to the standard treatments and had problems for about two years. She spent a few more days in the children's oncology ward for more treatments.

Spread the vaccinations out. There is no need to give multiple shots all in one appointment. Some of them are combinations of multiple vaccines, themselves, compounding the issue.


ITP is a blood clotting disorder that often follows a viral infection. It was coincidence, not the vaccine. The bolded part is also irrelevant. Once again, your child is exposed more to antigens by touching a single door knob than any of those combo shots. People have a higher chance of getting nerve damage from the injection itself (through nurse accident/error) than anything out of the components of the vaccine which is one huge reason why combo vaccines are a great idea.
2012-03-13 11:09:31 AM
1 votes:

budrojr: I generally don't consider physicians at Children's Hospitals who deal with unusual problems on a much higher incident rate than the regular pediatrician to be crazy-whacko-dingbats.


Nope, but it's not them that are saying this all the time. The only people that say anything much about adverse effects happening 'all the time' are crazies on the internet.


budrojr: I also would take that "anecdote" to be valid data since it seems that they knew exactly what the cause and effect were: a triple vaccination resulting in a fever of 106.


1. You assume we know for a fact the vaccine caused it and it wasn't coincidence
2. Pediatricians in intensive care may well see this stuff all the time, even if it's vanishingly rare, they're in intensive care after all. THIS is why anecdotes are not data.


budrojr: You're right to say most people don't have reactions like that because most people fall into what would be considered the normal healthy range. Seems his kid didn't for whatever reason. Is the fact that what happened to his kid enough to have a backlash against vaccines? No. Absolutely not. But problems like that shouldn't necessarily be dismissed as outlying oddities. It's as good a reason as any to investigate scientifically and learn why it happened. Maybe something can be changed about the whole process to lower the incident rate and make vaccinations even safer than they are.


Couldn't agree more.


budrojr: I submit some info for you to peruse. Although it is an opinion piece, it does have some links at the end to some legit sources and should at least give you more info. The summary of the article seems to be that in infants with underdeveloped renal function the possibility exists that the chemicals which could cause harm build up and are not filtered out as efficiently.


-1, Natural News.


budrojr: The whole vaccine thing is still very much under scientific review.


What do you even mean by this?
If you mean that (like evolution) we have an overwhelming body of evidence that vaccines are effective and are, in fact, probably the single greatest life saver the human race has ever seen BUT we need to constantly examine and review them to see if they can be made better.... I agree.

If you mean "ugh, the science isn't decided maaaan" and you mean to hold open the option that vaccines, in the general case, are ineffective or a net negative, then you're utterly delusional.
2012-03-13 11:07:29 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.

There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone because "science said so" but, until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced.


IMPOSSIBLE Shingles comes from the Chickenpox being dormant in the body.
2012-03-13 11:01:28 AM
1 votes:

Janusdog: BigLuca: I know a couple of women in med school that agree with the anti-vaccination nutjobs, at least partially. If that doesn't make you depressed for the future, nothing will.

That's bad, but how about the med students that don't "believe in" evolution?

I told a college we were donating to that under no circumstances was our money to be used to provide scholarships for fundies who didn't accept the basic tenets of medicine. The university has to adhere to "nondiscriminatory" policies and told us they couldn't promise that. What the fark.


Since when is "ignorant moran" a protected class?
2012-03-13 10:57:10 AM
1 votes:

meanmutton: Mad Scientist: Still no vaccine for creationism.

Remember, when conservatives are anti-science, they think stupid shiat about the origins of life.

When liberals are anti-science, they pump they let their kids die of measles, deny them medicine in favor of "herbal remedies", and smother babies in their sleep.



I'm not sure about the smothering business, but the other things seem to apply across the spectrum.
The left does have it's woo-mongering hippies and liberal mommies, that like natural, herbal crap and believe in all sorts of fairytale nonsense. It's true.

But the right has its rugged individualists, who reserve the right to refuse the GORAM GUBMIT pumping them full of LAWD-KNOWS what, and it has it's conspiracy theorists who think the corrupt, liberal elite are in bed with the pharmaceutical industry. Big Pharma, it seems, is the enemy of weirdos of multiple colours.
2012-03-13 10:52:21 AM
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Flu shots are dumb though. Even if you get the right strain protection, your body's immune system will not be as robust as those who don't get shots. Studies showed this in old people. Unless you have a real reason to think it could kill you, man up.


I like your car, but everything you just wrote in your post is wrong, or more specifically the opposite of correct. (new window)

Flu vaccines don't weaken your immune system, they trigger an immune response, making it stronger. Flu vaccines are recommended especially for old people and people with already weakened immune systems since they can lessen the severity of the infection.
2012-03-13 10:46:27 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: gadian: funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.

No. No, it farking isn't. It never was.

How so?


MEDICAL FRAUD. PAPER WITHDRAWN. LICENSE REVOKED.
2012-03-13 10:45:52 AM
1 votes:

lohphat: HotWingConspiracy: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

Well it's up to their doctors to decide if they want to allow them in to their practice. Those kids are a liability.

The result will be an increase in "alternative medical services" for the immuni-derp brigade to support their irrational views. It's like homeschooling but with doctors.

Cult behavior is as cult behavior does.


There is no such thing as alternative medicine and I wish someone would teach them that. See, we took all those "alternatives" and tested them. The ones that work, we call those medicine.
2012-03-13 10:44:03 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced


If you think that a vaccine is 'thrown together' you are gravely mistaken. Also farking polio, measles, mumps and rubella are all serious conditions that can kill or sterilize people who contract them.

this no a case of trying to prevent discomfort it's a case of preventing crippling, serialization and DEATH. If you don't understand the consequences of these diseases maybe you aren't informed enough to take an aspirin without assistance, let alone give medical advice.
2012-03-13 10:43:20 AM
1 votes:

BurnShrike: The very fact that people are questioning the safety of a vaccine that prevents a horrible, horrible disease (such as polio) with regard to the extremely small chance of having a reaction to it, just goes to show how effective our vaccine program has been. If you'd actually witnessed the devastation this one disease has caused throughout history, there is no way you would not vaccinate your kids.


It's just another example of the anti-intellectualism and baseless sense of superiority that has invaded the American mindset.

Never mind the enormous and historically unprecedented advances that modern science has given us, some guy who claims he's a scientist told me otherwise, so everybody else is wrong!

For 99,750 years fire, basic stone and metal tools, and simple wood and stone housing was virtually the entirety of human advancement. In the 250 years after that we have conquered diseases that we not only didn't know about for the prior ninety nine thousand years, but stem from a view of the biological world that most of our predecessors couldn't even dream of. Men and women of science have given us the ability to reconstruct our damaged bodies in incredible ways, to turn wounds and diseases that were previously a death sentence into something you pop a pill smaller than a penny to cure. To outright prevent crippling disease by simply rubbing a small, soluble, nicely-scented bar between our hands after using the toilet.

In a few generations we went from being victims of our planet to ruling it on the molecular level.

But fark all that. Clearly supermodels and angry stay at home moms who never done anything more significant than spread their legs are much more qualified than all these people with all their amazing accomplishments and education and data because somebody on the radio said so.

I wish I was British. Calling people like that "farking wankers" sounds so much better than anything American I have for them....
2012-03-13 10:41:27 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.


No, it isn't.

The original 'research' was fraudulent.
No further studies have shown any connection between vaccines and autism.
This argument is done.


funzyr: There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone because "science said so" but, until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced.


Chickenpox kills people. Not many, perhaps, but it can kill. There seems to be an increase in shingles in populations that vaccinate. You'd have to do the maths to decide what chances you'd like to take with your life vs possible shingles later. Keep in mind that if you're not vaccinated and survive the disease (very likely) you still have the chance of shingles later.
2012-03-13 10:40:45 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.


No. No, it farking isn't. It never was.
2012-03-13 10:39:15 AM
1 votes:
I've never seen a better example of "white people problems" than this topic. People are raising a stink because their doctors want to give their kids vaccinations.
2012-03-13 10:37:18 AM
1 votes:

BurnShrike: lohphat: Anti-vax is a modern mental disorder caused by generational amnesia.

Ask an older person to recall pre-1960s America where the fear of polio, measles, mumps, etc claimed family members and friends regularly. Heck, I remember kids and aduts with braces on their legs in the early '70s.

This latter day ignorance of medical advances which have spared millions of people from death or life-long disability is testament to our failed educational system and media to remind us of the past.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. And a lot of innocent people will die.


The reason that this ignorance exists, especially in America, is that science and math (and probability) are for "geeks". Innumeracy and scientific illiteracy is horrifying. Do you know that we in the US are second LAST in acceptance of evolution? Do you know who is last? Turkey.

Until the general public stops trying to eliminate "pointy headed intellectualism", yes, people are going to die and suffer from things that are completely preventable.
2012-03-13 10:34:21 AM
1 votes:

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.

There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone because "science said so" but, until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced.


How is that smallpox working out for you? Polio?

The eradication of these diseases is directly attributable to vaccines. It's not imaginary.
2012-03-13 10:28:52 AM
1 votes:

SpinStopper: thisisyourbrainonFark: Time to post this Penn & Teller linkage again, I see.

Link (new window)

Thanks. I've tried to use that same argument, but nowhere near as effectively as they did ;)




I don't care on which side they fall, Penn & Teller are a bunch of opinionated loudmouths and not scientists. They are wrong as often as they are right.
It's entertainment not peer reviewed science. Stick to sawing ladies in half.
2012-03-13 10:27:32 AM
1 votes:

Janusdog: PlatinumDragon: *saving throw against antivax trolls*

The Wakefield "research" was a complete fraud, never mind a ridiculously small sample.

I'll take my discomfort with social settings and tendency to shut everyone else out over pertussis and polio any day of the week. Maybe one of these parents who yammers on about "families suffer the paaaaaaain of autism!" should try asking their "broken" child whether they'd prefer tetanus, assuming they still believe a causal relationship exists between some unidentified component of some vaccines when a correlational one still hasn't been demonstrated.

Almost daily I wish Andrew Wakefield would get measles and wind up sterile, right before dying in a fire. As much as Jenny McCarthy is responsible for facilitating child death, he is patient zero of the retard epidemic.


I actually do wish so. Do you know why he published his paper? He had developed his own measles vaccine but didn't get the production contract. It was a professional hatchet job in an attempt to push his alternative vaccine. It didn't have quite the desired effect, but boy did it bring about a whole host of other bullshiat.

The laboratory involved didn't even use FARKING CONTROLS. And that wasn't the biggest issue.
2012-03-13 10:24:47 AM
1 votes:
Makes perfect sense you're liking to run into immunocompromised people who kids who are medically unable to be vaccinated at a doctor's office. Why would they want kids who are willingly working against herd immunity hanging around. Next step lets kick them all out of public schools.
2012-03-13 10:23:33 AM
1 votes:

PlatinumDragon: *saving throw against antivax trolls*

The Wakefield "research" was a complete fraud, never mind a ridiculously small sample.

I'll take my discomfort with social settings and tendency to shut everyone else out over pertussis and polio any day of the week. Maybe one of these parents who yammers on about "families suffer the paaaaaaain of autism!" should try asking their "broken" child whether they'd prefer tetanus, assuming they still believe a causal relationship exists between some unidentified component of some vaccines when a correlational one still hasn't been demonstrated.


Almost daily I wish Andrew Wakefield would get measles and wind up sterile, right before dying in a fire. As much as Jenny McCarthy is responsible for facilitating child death, he is patient zero of the retard epidemic.
2012-03-13 10:20:17 AM
1 votes:

Tat'dGreaser: Thunderpipes: Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?

I think the argument is it allows it to mutate and evolve, so that people who are vaccinated are now back at risk.


The argument tends to be -

Some people are immunocompromised, and can't be vaccinated.
Some kids are not vaccinated because they're very young.

Vaccination therefore protects the vaccinated individual from the disease and stops them being a carrier to spread to others. Herd immunity, when taken high enough, has enough non-carriers that those that can't be (or just aren't) vaccinated are also mostly protected. People who don't vaccinate get a free ride on herd immunity because they are unlikely to come into contact with ill folks. This works until such time as it drops low enough (below 80%? dependent on disease virulence and population density?) and epidemics can occur.

This is the situation Jenny McCarthy and others like her are trying to get to. They would have us back in the bad old days when polio killed or crippled a percentage of children, when measels killed some and damaged the brains of others, and when mumps and rubella caused sterility, failed pregnancies and testicular atrophy.
2012-03-13 10:18:40 AM
1 votes:
"My response usually is for them to look at credible, researched information and data and really make an informed decision for themselves versus what someone told them," said Breaux, a doctor at Brentwood (Tenn.) Pediatrics.

Good luck with that.
2012-03-13 10:16:44 AM
1 votes:

kimwim: BurnShrike: Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.

Who mentioned Christians? Do you feel that insecure about it that you need to bring it in to a discussion about vaccination?

The article mentioned people using Religion as a reason not to vaccinate. That's how I know you DNRTFA.


You're right. I didn't read the article.

I was referring to the ignorance of how horrible some of these diseases are, how a vaccine works, heard immunity, and why you're an idiot for not vaccinating your children. Science works, biatches.
2012-03-13 10:13:40 AM
1 votes:

Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.


That same book advocates rape, infanticide, murder, and forbids tattooing, shaving, and shellfish consumption.

Garbage in, garbage out.
2012-03-13 10:10:49 AM
1 votes:

BurnShrike: Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.

Who mentioned Christians? Do you feel that insecure about it that you need to bring it in to a discussion about vaccination?


The article mentioned people using Religion as a reason not to vaccinate. That's how I know you DNRTFA.
2012-03-13 10:10:03 AM
1 votes:

Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.


oh christ, is this going to turn into a christian thread? wtf does being christian have to do with anything?
2012-03-13 10:07:34 AM
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?


I think the argument is it allows it to mutate and evolve, so that people who are vaccinated are now back at risk.
2012-03-13 10:05:32 AM
1 votes:

BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!


Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.
2012-03-13 10:05:23 AM
1 votes:
This is one of those articles where the author feels he has to present both sides of the story even when one is batshiat insane.
2012-03-13 10:03:42 AM
1 votes:
I have 5 kids -- none of them immunized.

If I lose a couple, it's God's will. Just like the good old days.
2012-03-13 10:03:21 AM
1 votes:

Aarontology: As an adult, I can be held legally liable for knowingly spreading disease.

We should hold parents who don't vaccinate their kids to the same standards.


Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?

Sucks giving my little boy the shots, but I am a reasonable person. You really do have to be a farking moron to not do it. He got 3 of em at 6 months, was not a happy camper. Stick a boob in his mouth, he is fine.

Already gave him the liberalism shot, he has a job at 7 months old.
2012-03-13 10:03:13 AM
1 votes:
Ask those Tuskegee fellows about getting vaccines.
2012-03-13 10:02:58 AM
1 votes:

lohphat: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

Yay! The defender of ignorance and disease has arrived!


Yay, the stupid fark that has no reading comprehension.

Re-read my post.
2012-03-13 10:01:54 AM
1 votes:
It's about f*cking time.
2012-03-13 10:01:40 AM
1 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.


Well it's up to their doctors to decide if they want to allow them in to their practice. Those kids are a liability.
2012-03-13 10:00:27 AM
1 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.


Yay! The defender of ignorance and disease has arrived!
2012-03-13 10:00:04 AM
1 votes:
2012-03-13 09:57:29 AM
1 votes:
The doctor makes a well reasoned argument, but I think it's important that we all look long and hard at the other side as well

ehdwallpapers.net
2012-03-13 09:56:50 AM
1 votes:
Still no vaccine for creationism.
 
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