FARK.com: (6991506) More and more doctors are standing up to parents who refuse to vaccinate their children and telling them to go fark themselves

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		More and more doctors are standing up to parents who refuse to vaccinate their children and telling them to go fark themselves (yourlife.usatoday.com)		433
		More: Hero, whooping cough, vaccination schedule, vices, HPV Vaccine, pediatricians, vaccines, refuses, Brentwood

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PlatinumDragon		2012-03-13 01:24:06 PM

Gothnet: OTOH I agree that the pharmaceutical industry in the USA *is* weird and gets away with too much. I've lived in the UK and Australia, spent about a year of my life in the US and visited many other countries besides. Nowhere else have I seen TV commercials for "You might have this newly made up condition! Ask you doctor is XYZ is right for you!". [...] Thankfully we do have this layer of medical professionals, and groups like the CDC and FDA (in the US, others countries have similar) that monitor this stuff. I agree it's disturbing when the pharmaceutical companies appear to bribe either of these safeguards.

Big heaping piles of this.

I live close enough to the US border to pull in some American TV channels over the air. My partner and I never fail to be staggered by the sea of drug advertising on US TV, nor by the long list of possible side effects that hint at what the still-patented pharmaceuticals are actually doing. Ask my doctor whether Colonblowzipam is right for me? How about I let the medical professionals do their farking job and figure out, to the best of their knowledge and ability, what's right for me.

A weekly investigative journalism program produced by the state broadcaster here aired an interesting segment on OxyContin promotion and addiction this past Friday. I don't recall hearing about a $600 million judgement against the US company that produces OxyContin several years ago, but the segment producers sure did. Following from my previous statement about letting doctors do their job, unfortunately it appears a lot of doctors don't, or are simply too overwhelmed to, do those aspects of their job related to proper pharmaceutical dosage and monitoring. I suppose the lack of objective pain response detection hampers this effort, but physically addictive substances require careful monitoring and management protocols to avoid, or at least prepare to treat, addiction, and that just hasn't been happening in countless cases. It doesn't help when the company obfuscates or outright lies about the probable effects of a substance, and individual doctors can't be expected to run experiments on every last chemical they may wish to prescribe.

namegoeshere		2012-03-13 01:27:31 PM

PlatinumDragon: My partner and I never fail to be staggered by the sea of drug advertising on US TV, nor by the long list of possible side effects that hint at what the still-patented pharmaceuticals are actually doing.

Why do you hate anal leakage, you Canuckistani Socialist?

Ant		2012-03-13 01:29:58 PM

funzyr: There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

Are you trying to say that getting immunizations will weaken your immune system? I'm not sure, but it sounds like that is what you are saying.

I just want to be clear on this.

incalclacable		2012-03-13 01:35:28 PM

My 2yo's pediatrician rocks. No non-vaxers in the practice, answers the phone himself when I call, and does a blood cell count before a vax to make sure the immune system isn't compromised to avoid a high fever. Family has to move in a few months and I am DEVASTATED that we have to leave this practice.

For those claiming to need "real, actual facts instead of pseudoscience" telling you to vaccinate, I would love to know your definition of "facts." Because it seems to be that facts = "agree with me."

The Envoy and namegoeshere:
Frozen bagels are excellent (bagel shop in downtown area where I live keeps them available for cranky babies who come in), and I know I'm pro-meds with my vaccine views, but the amber teething necklace worked quite well for us. It may be totally psychosomatic, but I don't care. I'm okay with being tricked into sleeping if it means I get sleep.

Cyclometh		2012-03-13 01:35:42 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Swagulus: Always love these vaccination threads....lotsa shills in here

Oh and no one has a right to tell another person what goes inside their body, sorry....

Short, simple, to the point.

/mind blown by the cognitive dissonance up in here

Let's take your argument and apply it to other things, shall we?

First, a modified version of the statement above:

"No one has a right to tell another person what goes onto their body, sorry..."

By that logic...

I can be a restaurant cook who refuses to wash my hands because I don't think soap is good for me. The government and society have no business telling me what to put onto my skin. Soap has been linked to all kinds of skin problems, and I won't risk it.

Would you eat at a restaurant where someone was cooking who flaunted regulations about handwashing and sanitation because they didn't like soap? Would you support their right to work in the food service industry even if they refused? Should the government be able to prohibit someone from working in food service if they refuse to wash their hands? Should a restaurant owner be able to fire a cook who refuses to wash their hands?

Being prohibited from certain activities because your actions would cause risk to other people's health is appropriate and necessary. Just as we should rightfully prohibit someone who won't wash their hands after taking a dump from being a cook, we should rightfully prohibit someone whose children are a health risk to other people because they refuse to vaccinate from attending a public school. And doctors should absolutely refuse to accept unvaccinated children as patients.

Go ahead and choose not to vaccinate. But you don't get to whine about it when there are consequences for being an ignorant fool.

atomsmoosher		2012-03-13 01:36:12 PM

budrojr: atomsmoosher: MycroftHolmes: The logic I have heard is that if you never let the body be exposed to pathogens, or if you always use antibiotics rather than naturally fight off infections, your body does not develop the same immune system infrastructure (ability to make white blood cells, antibodies, etc.) as robustly.

Which is patent nonsense. You can't NOT let your body be expose to pathogens. Unless you keep your child in a plastic bubble, they will come into contact with pathogens. Vaccines work by USING the immune system to generate antibodies. So, you can develop antibodies while your body is trying to fight off an invasive pathogen. Or develop literally the same antibodies without a risk of severe illness to go along with it.

Good comments, and vaccines work just like you described. Except we were talking about antibiotics, not vaccines.

Yes, but I was replying specifically to MycroftHolmes the notion of building an immune system infrastructure...and I...I...erm...didn't read the whole thing. fark.

plewis		2012-03-13 01:36:58 PM

I've got a kid with mild autism and let me say that I would like to personally shoot every anti-vaxer in the face. How DARE you threaten my child by not having your child immunized? I actually don't give a shiat about your kid dying, that's your own ignorance coming back to bite you, but MY kid could be harmed by your stupidity and I will not tolerate that.

As for autism, there is no link. Maybe it's environmental, but vaccines have been eliminated as a cause through exhaustive scientific studies. Now for full disclosure, we did go for an extended schedule for vaccinations, but it was only because I can do math and I figured that if you got one shot for every time we went in we'd be covered in the appropriate time so why not space them out?

So vaccinate your damned kids and pay attention to them. If they show signs of autism, take care of that too. Early intervention is absolutely critical. Unvaccinated kids get autism too, only they might die of other stuff as well.

\dumbasses!

LoneDoggie		2012-03-13 01:58:51 PM

guy who got whooping cough from a unvaxxed kid crew checking in. I paid my dues, that little punk shoulda had to as well...

This text is now purple		2012-03-13 02:00:20 PM

Janusdog: No one has been inoculated against smallpox for decades.

Because it's been declared eradicated. Because of vaccination.

I get that. But the argument that we need vaccines to ward of smallpox is... antiquated. Hell, the vaccine stocks are essentially the only remaining smallpox vectors.

Um, the smallpox thing is an example of how vaccines have been effective in the war against communicable disease. Not that you should get vaccinated against smallpox.

And they have been. But smallpox was also the perfect candidate -- lethal, infectious, but also remarkably stable and possessed a non-lethal live virus cousin which could confer immunity. So it was easy to make a vaccine and the population was strongly reinforced to get it. As opposed to the stronger fight against influenza, which is wildly mutagenic, often fairly benign, and possesses a wide variety of sister versions to which immunity from one is not conferred to the other. Flu shots are ridiculously ineffective when compared to smallpox or polio. All the other diseases float somewhere in between. But nothing has been or is likely to be as successful as smallpox was.

budrojr		2012-03-13 02:02:23 PM

atomsmoosher: Yes, but I was replying specifically to MycroftHolmes the notion of building an immune system infrastructure...and I...I...erm...didn't read the whole thing. fark.

I figured you had missed that, lol. Don't let it bother you. What you said was still perfectly right.

This text is now purple		2012-03-13 02:06:09 PM

LaraAmber: My question for the "vaccines cause autism" crowd. Why have we not seen one case of an adult or teenager going in for boosters or vaccinations before visiting a foreign country come out of the doctor's office with autism? Something magical about puberty that protects against autism?

The argument proposes a mechanism whereby brain damage by a certain age in the developing brain results in symptomatic autism at a later date.

And while you may think that's bullshiat, that's basically the way fetal alcohol syndrome works, too.

This text is now purple		2012-03-13 02:12:46 PM

jimmydageek: People with lingering coughs should get tested and avoid contact with newborns. Many of them have pertussis, even if they received a vaccination 20 years ago that may not have provided immunity even then.

If you're in the lingering cough phase, you're no longer contagious. The cough is a byproduct of the lung damage caused by pertussis.

This text is now purple		2012-03-13 02:16:08 PM

PlatinumDragon: It doesn't help when the company obfuscates or outright lies about the probable effects of a substance, and individual doctors can't be expected to run experiments on every last chemical they may wish to prescribe.

The FDA is many things, but negligient is not one of them.

Which is partially why Thalidomide was never a problem in the US.

LaraAmber		2012-03-13 02:27:15 PM

This text is now purple: LaraAmber: My question for the "vaccines cause autism" crowd. Why have we not seen one case of an adult or teenager going in for boosters or vaccinations before visiting a foreign country come out of the doctor's office with autism? Something magical about puberty that protects against autism?

The argument proposes a mechanism whereby brain damage by a certain age in the developing brain results in symptomatic autism at a later date.

And while you may think that's bullshiat, that's basically the way fetal alcohol syndrome works, too.

If that was truly their argument, then the anti-vaccine crowd would be saying "let's delay vaccines until age 3" or something similar, not refusing to vaccinate their kids entirely. Fetal alcohol syndrome (and current autism research focus) is prenatal, when the brain is actually forming, not post birth when the brain is mostly formed and going through changes and growth because of reaction to external stimuli (and myelination, give your kids whole milk!).

blahpers		2012-03-13 02:30:27 PM

"All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend on research and development. And the worst that a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green, fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit."

VonEvilstein		2012-03-13 02:38:53 PM

funzyr: The argument about autism is a valid one.

There are other issues here, too. What about people who are going to get shingles having never experienced chicken pox? What happens to the next generation of people who don't have the immune systems to fight off a simple cold because their bodies don't ever have to deal with this stuff?

I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone because "science said so" but, until I see real facts and not just some liquid that was thrown together to make people feel better about their snowflakes not getting something that's NOT life-threatening, I will not be convinced.

morbo.jpg

That is exactly what vaccines are. They are a field exercise, a drill, a way of preparing your body to deal with the very stuff you mention. The immune system of someone vaccinated against a disease is orders of motherfarking magnitude better equipped to deal with it that the immune system of someone who hasn't.

Please go and read a decent textbook on immunology. Kuby or Roitt are highly recommended.
Then please proceed to indicate which diseases we currently immunize against are not life threatening.
And for your final trick, go discuss that with an immunology lecturer - you know, someone who has dedicated much of their adult life to studying this field.

We will then accept your humble apology.

Science only ever "says so" when it has a firmly established body of evidence to support this. That you have not exposed yourself to such evidence is no one's fault but your own.

/ pharmaceutical sciences degree
// get enraged beyond all rational comprehension by this sort of idiocy and the risk it exposes innocent children to

wudu5		2012-03-13 02:41:34 PM

Just this:
Am J Public Health. 2011 Nov;101(11):2016-21. Epub 2011 Sep 22.
Balancing vaccine science and national policy objectives: lessons from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Omnibus Autism Proceedings.
Keelan J, Wilson K.
Source

Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract

The US Court of Federal Claims, which adjudicates cases for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, has been confronted with more than 5000 cases submitted on behalf of children with autism spectrum disorders, seeking to link the condition to vaccination. Through a test case process, the Omnibus Autism Proceedings have in every instance found no association between autism spectrum disorders and vaccines.

Wicked Chinchilla		2012-03-13 02:42:23 PM

RembrandtQEinstein: Gothnet:

And what about when you encounter those that deliberately spread misinformation for their own gain? (Wakefield)
Or indeed those that spread misinformation under false illusions, and then belligerently defend these illusions in the face of contradictory fact? (McCarthy)
And what about times when, like with global warming or evolution, you can't help but step back and marvel at the clinical grade stupidity that's flowing from them? And how it repeats, time and time and time again despite each and every minute point being precisely and exactly refuted?

In a clinical setting with a physician, you're right, and it sounds like you had a great doctor. On the internet... bah, the internet is for snark, and if the record shows anti-vaxxers getting their asses handed to them in factual debate, so much the better. There's no arguing with people who don't believe in evidence and facts, but at least when they can be exposed for such then others who prefer actual knowledge over fear and conjecture can see that the 'debate' is yet another clash of reason vs. superstition.

And how do you counter the spread of misinformation? If you present your case calmly and without an obvious agenda you might just convince some people who are on the fence. If you act like a dick because you are insecure enough to need the fleeting feeling of superiority then you will turn people against you regardless of the righteousness of your position.

Wicked Chinchilla: All vaccines go through the same approval process from the FDA. If they are approved, they are safe to use, end-of-story.

Why do you have such blind faith in the FDA? It is made up of people, it is headed by a political appointee. You might as well say "Since priests are representatives of God's will on earth what they say is always the truth, end of story". I bet that statement sounded ignorant to you, well that is exactly how your statement sounded to me. A quick google of "FDA mistakes" brings up tons of "legitimate" news ...

Do you have any idea of how many things the FDA does catch? How hard it is for a drug to pass through all phases of drug testing? I don't give a rats ass if the head person is a political appointee, the person(s) doing the reviewing have experience and knowledge about what it is they are looking at. The CDC and NIH are run by political appointees too. I can also say the people running it do zero science so its not related, at all. Yes, there are exceptions that slipped past. Many of those resulted in lawsuits against the drug companies because they hid data.

Egalitarian		2012-03-13 02:46:14 PM

I'm pretty sure autism is strongly influenced by genetics. There are environmental triggers, but it's basically the result of two Asperger-ish parents getting together and combining bad DNA. Unless you are very careful, something will trigger the genetic condition.

My cereal theory: the reason why people notice their young child is going autistic around the same time as vaccines, is because that's around the age when the kid is getting old enough to start demanding what food they eat. What do they demand? Probably the worst food possible, gluten-ridden cereal and dairy milk.

A lot of autistic kids are very sensitive to dairy and gluten. Dairy (casein proteins) can cause an opiate effect, and gluten really farks up the digestive system, impeding nutrient absorption. The young, developing brain is constantly starved of important nutrients and frequently "high", causing rampant miswiring.

Meanwhile the kid is in pain from severe constipation and pooping in painful mass quantities. We're talking adult sized (or bigger) poops coming out of a little kid butt. Since the body is also starving, the kid is driven to eat mass quantities of grains, almost like an herbivorous animal trying to get nutrition out of grass. The pain and discomfort leads to constant bad moods and misbehavior.

All I'm saying is, if I were nerdy and my partner was nerdy, and I absolutely had to reproduce, I would watch that toddler diet. You can easily substitute gluten-free cereal, such as Rice Krispies, and almond milk. Watch out for soy and beef too.

\don't yell at me bro if anything above agrees with the evil quack who started the anti-vaxxer movement
\\these are mostly my own half-baked theories based on anecdotal observations
\\\they never tell you about the constipation and ginormous poops on TV

chiefsfaninkc		2012-03-13 02:47:28 PM

Cythraul: Why can't we do this more often with people who deny science and facts? It could radically change the current U.S. political landscape.

So you think the government should be able to force people to believe what you believe?

angrycrank		2012-03-13 02:55:46 PM

Gabrielmot: xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

Flu shots, IMO, are pointless unless you have a weakened immune system, are a child, or elderly. Why? Well, flu shots are typically made to attack *last year's flu virus* and may not affect any new mutated versions of the flu virus you encounter after your shot.

Now there *is* a small chance that the same strain of flu from last year is still around and it will help you fight it, but stop being a pansy and let your immune system do what it was designed for. -Seriously, if we can't let our bodies fight small things like the flu, we're just making it more dangerous when there *isn't* a flu shot next time. -Same thing goes for hand sanitation out there not being used by someone doing surgery. Any idea why we have resistant bacteria now? And the same thing can be said about the overuse of antibiotics... You don't need them for a cold, suck it up and get some orange juice.

On the other hand, immunizations for children for serious things like mumps, measles, rubella, etc. are obviously important and very necessary. -Try not to compare these to flu shots.

Almost everything in this post, except the second-to-last sentence, is incorrect.

First, as Wicked Chinchilla explained, the flu vaccine isn't based on last year's strain but on informed predictions about what strains are most likely to be prevalent this year. Some years those predictions pan out better than others, which is one reason why the effectiveness of the vaccine varies from year to year.

Second, the flu isn't dangerous only to children and the elderly. There's a misconception that the flu isn't serious because people often confuse colds or gastroenteritis with the flu. If you're up in a day or 2, it probably was one of the former and not actually influenza. Influenza can actually be pretty serious even in young healthy adults (I had a twenty-year-old employee hospitalised for weeks with it once) and some strains are actually MORE dangerous to young adults with robust immune systems - read up on the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918, which killed millions of previously healthy young adults.

Third, as others have already addressed, the immune system doesn't work as you've described. Vaccines don't weaken the immune system or lead to the development of resistant strains.

A last issue is that even if you're young and healthy and the flu strains in circulation in a given year don't pose an elevated risk to you, you can still serve as a vector and transmit the virus to others who are at higher risk.

As with anything else, people should weigh the risks of the flu vaccine against the benefits before deciding to get it. Unfortunately, most people overestimate the risks of the flu vaccine and underestimate the benefits because they think the flu is just a bad cold.

meat0918		2012-03-13 02:56:00 PM

wudu5: Just this:
Am J Public Health. 2011 Nov;101(11):2016-21. Epub 2011 Sep 22.
Balancing vaccine science and national policy objectives: lessons from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Omnibus Autism Proceedings.
Keelan J, Wilson K.
Source

Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract

The US Court of Federal Claims, which adjudicates cases for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, has been confronted with more than 5000 cases submitted on behalf of children with autism spectrum disorders, seeking to link the condition to vaccination. Through a test case process, the Omnibus Autism Proceedings have in every instance found no association between autism spectrum disorders and vaccines.

Sadly, none of that can penetrate the walls erected by the words "It's all part of the conspiracy!"

Vaccinate your damn kids.

LaraAmber		2012-03-13 02:58:10 PM

Egalitarian: I'm pretty sure autism is strongly influenced by genetics. There are environmental triggers, but it's basically the result of two Asperger-ish parents getting together and combining bad DNA. Unless you are very careful, something will trigger the genetic condition.

My cereal theory: the reason why people notice their young child is going autistic around the same time as vaccines, is because that's around the age when the kid is getting old enough to start demanding what food they eat. What do they demand? Probably the worst food possible, gluten-ridden cereal and dairy milk.

A lot of autistic kids are very sensitive to dairy and gluten. Dairy (casein proteins) can cause an opiate effect, and gluten really farks up the digestive system, impeding nutrient absorption. The young, developing brain is constantly starved of important nutrients and frequently "high", causing rampant miswiring.

Meanwhile the kid is in pain from severe constipation and pooping in painful mass quantities. We're talking adult sized (or bigger) poops coming out of a little kid butt. Since the body is also starving, the kid is driven to eat mass quantities of grains, almost like an herbivorous animal trying to get nutrition out of grass. The pain and discomfort leads to constant bad moods and misbehavior.

All I'm saying is, if I were nerdy and my partner was nerdy, and I absolutely had to reproduce, I would watch that toddler diet. You can easily substitute gluten-free cereal, such as Rice Krispies, and almond milk. Watch out for soy and beef too.

\don't yell at me bro if anything above agrees with the evil quack who started the anti-vaxxer movement
\\these are mostly my own half-baked theories based on anecdotal observations
\\\they never tell you about the constipation and ginormous poops on TV

Actually that baby desperately needs the fat that's in whole milk once he/she comes off breastmilk in order to complete myelination, that's the fatty covering over all your lovely neurons so they fire correctly. Not having that milk fat will lead to mental problems, not the other way around.

Your cereal theory is crap also because they're able to start finding the warning signs of autism as early as six months, well before most babies are introduced to cow's milk or regular cereal. You'd also find higher autism rates among the working poor (more likely to have to go with formula and not be able to pump at work or stay home) and lower rates among the more privileged parents who can breastfeed longer and make organic baby food, etc.

I'm pretty sure herbivorous animals are SUPPOSED to get nutrition from grass.

ciberido		2012-03-13 03:05:31 PM

ciberido: So I don't have the right to tell you you can't drive while intoxicated?

kidgenius: There are two parts to what you said.

First part is being intoxicated. You are merely affecting yourself. Knock yourself out.

Second part is driving. Now you are endangering my life, my children's life, and the health and safety of every other individual on the road.

The first is ok. The second is morally reprehensible.

Exactly. We agree completely, at least about this much.

Where we may or may not disagree is with the contention that going about your normal business is society is like driving a car. You are interacting with other "drivers" and thus have a responsibility to "drive" in a safe manner. Going to church, school, the shopping mall, etc., while unvaccinated is like driving while drunk.

Just as you have the right to get as drunk as you want without driving, you have the right to be as unvaccinated as you like ... so long as you avoid churches, airports, schools, malls, buses, subways, or any other place where people congregate.

Tainted1		2012-03-13 03:09:54 PM

gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

Wait until your children gets whats normally an easily preventable lung infection where they cough so hard they break their own ribs.

ciberido		2012-03-13 03:10:08 PM

KatjaMouse: Good point. And Catholics do tend to get offended when you tell them to stop spraying staff infected holy water over their sick loved ones in a hospital.

This text is now purple: You realize you can bless a container of distilled water, right?

www.infectiousthreads.com

Van Helsing approves.

ciberido		2012-03-13 03:14:31 PM

Belias: And another thing: Why do these journalists insist on getting "both sides" of the issue? "Hmm... we've heard from several respected doctors on the subject, we must now give equal time to a random wacko who believes that anecdote equals data."

It's a no-win scenario. If they don't try to give "equal time" to "both sides," then the derpers will scream that they're being repressed and censored and the librul media is biased. If they do try to give "equal time" to "both sides," then they legitimize the derp.

Ruiizu		2012-03-13 03:16:09 PM

I think immunization is probably the only real defense we actually have against most diseases. If you go to the doctor, most of the time they have no "cure" for an affliction you've already contracted, unless it happens to be bacterial. Bacterial infections obviously work differently than viruses.

I don't understand how anyone can compare the measles shot with the flu shot, though---the flu is mitigated predominantly by access to food and water on a constant basis. Diseases that used to kill us don't simply because we can live in a controlled environment and be well fed, allowing us to easily fend off minor illnesses. The flu shot might be helpful, but it's not meaningful when you compare it to vaccines for illnesses that your body really can't fend off effectively on its own merit.

I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

/most vaccinations are good
//after the fact cures are often what suck and cause abdominal pain, blindness, or what have you

blahpers		2012-03-13 03:16:17 PM

Egalitarian: My cereal theory: the reason why people notice their young child is going autistic around the same time as vaccines, is because that's around the age when the kid is getting old enough to start demanding what food they eat. What do they demand? Probably the worst food possible, gluten-ridden cereal and dairy milk.

whatshisname		2012-03-13 03:16:28 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

It's up to their parents then, even if they're too ignorant to understand why they need to vaccinate their kids? What if they're too ignorant to understand that kids need food and water, or that they need to go to school?

ciberido		2012-03-13 03:23:41 PM

wantingout: well we can just take the recent pertussis outbreaks as an example. Funny that they are occurring in people that have ALREADY BEEN VACCINATED AGAINST IT. But everyone should get vaccines because they are effective.

Funny that you're full of pertussis.

Try again. With a link or something. But only after you learn what "booster shot" means.

lohphat		2012-03-13 03:25:35 PM

Gothnet: jimmydageek: They are also predisposed to do something rather than not do things.

I wonder if this is an effect of the chargeability of healthcare and the insurance policy health culture in the US?

In the UK they often seem predisposed not to do anything, erring on the side of "I'm sure it'll go away by itself", which is often right and often not, possibly issued by the fact that they have budgets rather than invoices.

I wonder if there is a happy middleground?

You aw not limited in the UK to the NHS. you can our base private supplemental insurance to eliminate waiting for basic non-emergency services and additional services.

PsiChick		2012-03-13 03:28:46 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

Well...kinda is. I'll agree that parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit, but as a society, if we don't limit that, we're going to end up with an epidemic of child abuse. The question is where we draw the line. We're a highly individualistic society, so it's pretty far back, but lack of vaccines can and do cause physical harm to children, and the people advocating it have been disproven. I'd say this line is a pretty good one to at least think about, wouldn't you?

atomsmoosher		2012-03-13 03:41:01 PM

PsiChick: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

Well...kinda is. I'll agree that parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit, but as a society, if we don't limit that, we're going to end up with an epidemic of child abuse. The question is where we draw the line. We're a highly individualistic society, so it's pretty far back, but lack of vaccines can and do cause physical harm to children, and the people advocating it have been disproven. I'd say this line is a pretty good one to at least think about, wouldn't you?

I agree. This is a pretty good place to draw a line. Finest line-drawing scenery I've seen thus far.

namegoeshere		2012-03-13 03:57:44 PM

Ruiizu: I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

Amish also have a limited genepool, as they marry within the community. So it is more likely that they are not passing on the genes than that it has anything at all to do with vaccines.

meat0918		2012-03-13 04:02:00 PM

namegoeshere: Ruiizu: I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

Amish also have a limited genepool, as they marry within the community. So it is more likely that they are not passing on the genes than that it has anything at all to do with vaccines.

They actually are vaccinated with regularity. It's more likely social factors and genetic predisposition.

Link (new window)

Ruiizu		2012-03-13 04:08:51 PM

meat0918: namegoeshere: Ruiizu: I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

Amish also have a limited genepool, as they marry within the community. So it is more likely that they are not passing on the genes than that it has anything at all to do with vaccines.

They actually are vaccinated with regularity. It's more likely social factors and genetic predisposition.

Link (new window)

I appreciate the info. Learning from data and from credible sources usually is preferable to hearsay.

atomsmoosher		2012-03-13 04:22:29 PM

meat0918: namegoeshere: Ruiizu: I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

Amish also have a limited genepool, as they marry within the community. So it is more likely that they are not passing on the genes than that it has anything at all to do with vaccines.

They actually are vaccinated with regularity. It's more likely social factors and genetic predisposition.

Link (new window)

But they ARE more likely to suffer from polydactlyly.

(Came here to post the same link as you did and now feel obligated to post something. Its a problem, I know.)

KnowledgeJunkie		2012-03-13 06:05:10 PM

xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

Not a medical professional either, but my understanding of flu vaccines is that you are given a deadened / weakened (unsure of best terminology) version of whatever flu strain is most prevalent in your area so that your immune system can "conquer" it before you are hit with what's in the wild. This (for many people) still leads to getting a flu, but nothing like what you could have gotten otherwise.

MycroftHolmes		2012-03-13 06:47:29 PM

KnowledgeJunkie: xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

Not a medical professional either, but my understanding of flu vaccines is that you are given a deadened / weakened (unsure of best terminology) version of whatever flu strain is most prevalent in your area so that your immune system can "conquer" it before you are hit with what's in the wild. This (for many people) still leads to getting a flu, but nothing like what you could have gotten otherwise.

The nasal vaccine contains attenuated viruses. The shot contains dead viruses (usually just the protein shell so that antigens can be produced).

Because the response to the vaccine is to basically the same as the response to the virus, people claim that the vaccine gives them the flu because they feel fatigued and feverish after the vaccine. This is not the flu.

RembrandtQEinstein		2012-03-13 07:29:03 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: the person(s) doing the reviewing have experience and knowledge about what it is they are looking at

You are making this claim yet present no evidence supporting it? Only your blind faith that "they know what they are doing, other people told me so!". So how exactly are you behaving any differently than the anti vaccine crowd? Someone who seems trustworthy told them something, they believe it based on their faith in their ability to judge someone as trustworthy or not. You believe this "fact" based on the same thing it seems.

The language you are using makes it appear as thought you believe that anyone who questions your beliefs is a "dingbat, moony, idiot, crazy person" etc etc etc names for people we discount because they don't believe the same things we do.

What is so hard about saying "based on this evidence , I came to this conclusion "?

basemetal		2012-03-13 07:29:13 PM

I loves me some anti vaccination derp, and this thread does deliver.

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums		2012-03-13 07:38:09 PM

If there were a vaccine that decreased the chance of your child ever getting AIDS, would you have him get it? What if it involved having your child's foreskin lopped off?

raygundan		2012-03-13 07:42:08 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: HotWingConspiracy: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

Well it's up to their doctors to decide if they want to allow them in to their practice. Those kids are a liability.

And that's fair.

For most things, I'd be happy to leave it at that-- but it is unfortunately not how vaccinations work. People are under the impression that if I get the shot and you don't, that I'm protected and your choice doesn't harm me. That's only partially true. Vaccines confer a resistance-- somewhere on the order of 70%. It's far from perfect. What makes it close to perfect, and capable of eradicating diseases is vaccinating everyone. To go back to the two person example-- if I'm vaccinated *and* you're vaccinated, and you're exposed-- you get a 30% chance of infection, but my chance of being infected by you is down to just 9%. THIS is how vaccination protects-- via "herd immunity." No one person is actually immune, but because everyone is partially immune, the disease cannot spread very far or very fast.

But more importantly, there are people who cannot be vaccinated. Newborns, for example. Or transplant patients. These people's only option is to rely on the protection provided by having everyone around them vaccinated, which reduces dramatically their chance of exposure.

So, although I would prefer that we lived in a world where it was always possible to give people this choice, it is in this instance unwise to do so. The more people are unvaccinated, the more everyone else is at risk, vaccinated AND unvaccinated. About the only compromise I could be convinced to make on this is if the people who opt out are willing to opt out of contact with the rest of society. Entirely. That is the only way they can have their choice without having a negative effect on everyone else.

And I don't see any moral quandry here. It's the "my right to swing my fist ends at your nose" rule, except in more complicated terms.

Phins		2012-03-13 07:45:42 PM

StubePT: My feeling is that parents just want SOMETHING - ANYTHING - to blame. They had a scapegoat, but it was taken away. And rather than admit to being duped, they would rather continue the lie than admit that they are powerless when it comes to how their child develops genetically.

Whatever you do, don't suggest that there's a genetic component to autism. They will start screaming that you are "BLAMING THE PARENTS!!!" How dare you blame the poor hard-working parents who have to deal with an autistic child. Also, researchers, doctors, etc. don't know anything about autism or it's causes because they don't have children with autism. Only parents of autistic children can know what causes autism.

Phins		2012-03-13 07:49:04 PM

moxiecola: these discussions get me so frustrated, because it is obvious that a lot of people don't understand how vaccines work.

"I got a flu shot, but still got the flu, wtf?"

People also don't understand that the flu is a respiratory illness. Someone gets a particularly bad cold and says "I got the flu." Or someone eats something bad, throws up for a few hours and calls it the flu. And then it's "I got a flu shot but still got the flu."

GT_bike		2012-03-13 08:30:08 PM

Gothnet: gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

Citation needed.

There are adverse reactions to vaccination, but AFAICT three shots at once makes no difference, and 'all the time' is pretty unlikely. Don't you think there would be a lot more stories, and from people who aren't crazy-whacko-dingbats, if this happened 'all the time' ?

As it is, most kids get nothing like that, and compared to the real possibility of DEATH from the childhood diseases this stuff protects against...

I'm sorry you had a stressful time, but anecdotes are not and never will be data.

And your understanding of "statistics" and data which ignore the anecdotal incidents is meaningful how?

Has any scientific vaccine study ever factored in or included my anecdotal yet proven "allergy" as in pulmonory arrest whenever I've recieved the tetnus vaccine/booster? The last time I was told to get one I decided to not get one, and I didn't stop breathing, a specialist finally told me there is a known reaction which occurs causing pulmonory arrests like mine.

And of course just like Kodak who invented digital photography in the 70's then sat on the technology, worried about the loss of revenue to their photopaper business, a phramaceutical company would never obfuscate data to keep the bread and butter business rolling in. But evil Coal, Oil and WalMart would.

JamisonJamieJames		2012-03-13 09:17:54 PM

herrDrFarkenstein		2012-03-13 09:21:43 PM

atomsmoosher: meat0918: namegoeshere: Ruiizu: I don't know how much hearsay is based on fact, but I'd heard that the Amish experience very low rates of autism (and the Amish frequently aren't vaccinated). That's not to say A is related to B, but it's something to consider.

Amish also have a limited genepool, as they marry within the community. So it is more likely that they are not passing on the genes than that it has anything at all to do with vaccines.

They actually are vaccinated with regularity. It's more likely social factors and genetic predisposition.

Link (new window)

But they ARE more likely to suffer from polydactlyly.

(Came here to post the same link as you did and now feel obligated to post something. Its a problem, I know.)

An Amish man slaughtered my father. He came and demanded a custom buggy whip at one tenth his promised price. My father refused and the Amish man whipped him to death.

gold6		2012-03-13 09:25:16 PM

I work in a pediatric department as a medical assistant and, because of children not being vaccinated, I have been exposed to the whooping cough 4 times. Once I had to have a booster for the vaccine and the rest of the times I still had to do a round of antibiotics. We had a nurse who had to avoid her child because the child was not old enough to have had the whooping cough vaccine and, since the nurse was exposed, she could have spread it to her. Get your damn children vaccinated.
/Also do therapy with a little boy with autism. This little boy is severely autistic, but is still able to laugh, run, play, and have fun. Vaccines don't cause autism, but even if they did, this is better than being in a casket because of an easily prevented disease.

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