hinten: And then they spend the rest of the article giving more ammunition to the anti-vaccine crazies.

What is it with journalism today that they feel they have to give equal time to both sides even when one side is made up of murderous idiots?

It's a failed attempt at balance. They believe that to avoid the appearance of bias they must give equal time to both sides of a story as if each of them carries equal weight and is equally as valid. I think this is why sources like NPR are perceived to have a liberal bias because, for example, when they do a piece on Obama's economic plan they don't also have some bloviating idiot screaming about WHAR BIRF CERTIFICT WHE??.

Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.

Who mentioned Christians? Do you feel that insecure about it that you need to bring it in to a discussion about vaccination?

gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

Citation needed.

There are adverse reactions to vaccination, but AFAICT three shots at once makes no difference, and 'all the time' is pretty unlikely. Don't you think there would be a lot more stories, and from people who aren't crazy-whacko-dingbats, if this happened 'all the time' ?

As it is, most kids get nothing like that, and compared to the real possibility of DEATH from the childhood diseases this stuff protects against...

I'm sorry you had a stressful time, but anecdotes are not and never will be data.

xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

Flu shots, IMO, are pointless unless you have a weakened immune system, are a child, or elderly. Why? Well, flu shots are typically made to attack *last year's flu virus* and may not affect any new mutated versions of the flu virus you encounter after your shot.

Now there *is* a small chance that the same strain of flu from last year is still around and it will help you fight it, but stop being a pansy and let your immune system do what it was designed for. -Seriously, if we can't let our bodies fight small things like the flu, we're just making it more dangerous when there *isn't* a flu shot next time. -Same thing goes for hand sanitation out there not being used by someone doing surgery. Any idea why we have resistant bacteria now? And the same thing can be said about the overuse of antibiotics... You don't need them for a cold, suck it up and get some orange juice.

On the other hand, immunizations for children for serious things like mumps, measles, rubella, etc. are obviously important and very necessary. -Try not to compare these to flu shots.

xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

one of two things -
1) If you got sick shortly after receiving the vaccine you weren't really sick. Your body mounted an immune response to the antigens within the vaccine. Some people get that worse than others, but its nothing contagious, its your body mounting a WTFBBQ response to what it perceives is a foreign invader. The material in vaccines is either completely deactivated or attenuated (pathogenic genes removed/inactivated) so the odds range from completely impossible to ridiculously low that you would get sick directly from the shot.

2) I worked in in a Flu reference center for about a year doing diagnostics on samples recieved and testing to determine vaccine components. The vaccine compenents are determined approximately 6 months prior to an actual flu season. Thus, the flu vaccine composition is a product of mapping out world wide prevalence and predicting what the most likely picture of the most circulated flu's will be six months from your current data. They generally do really well, all things considered with an average coverage rate of around 80%. Some flu seasons are wacky though and I saw data for one year where coverage was 50% (and one year where it was 90+ as well)

/Long story short: it could easily have been a different strain, or you didn't mount that great of an immune response from the vaccine and your friend was shedding virus like a fiend.

//the more you know

Somewhat relevant to turning down medical research: Patton Oswalt on home birth (new window)

Thunderpipes: Aarontology: As an adult, I can be held legally liable for knowingly spreading disease.

We should hold parents who don't vaccinate their kids to the same standards.

Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?

Sucks giving my little boy the shots, but I am a reasonable person. You really do have to be a farking moron to not do it. He got 3 of em at 6 months, was not a happy camper. Stick a boob in his mouth, he is fine.

Already gave him the liberalism shot, he has a job at 7 months old.

You know, I was about " " this close from complementing you on the first troll-free post of your tenure here on Fark, but then the last line puts you right back in troll status.

Sigh, oh well, one can certainly still hope ...

gearfab_bastad: Wait till your 6 month-old spends two days in intensive care with a 106 degree fever because doctors like to give three vaccinations in a single shot. Maybe, just maybe everything the medical establishment tells you isn't on the up and up. Even doctors disagree. When I asked the doctor at Dell Children's in Austin if a vaccine can cause a reaction like that - even though our personal pediatrician said it could not - he said "sure, we see it all the time."

Better a high fever from which they recover than polio, smallpox, mumps, etc. from which they die or are permanently, severely disabled.

Time to post this Penn & Teller linkage again, I see.

Link (new window)

awgeeznotthisshiatagain.jpg

I, for one, would thoroughly enjoy the lulz that would ensue if the medical establishment discovered what causes autism and then developed a vaccine for it.

/recently had a tetanus booster
//that biatch hurt for weeks
///better than lockjaw

Logically, the antivaxers should have no problem with this, right?
I mean, if you're not going to trust science and medicine, wtf are you at the doctor's office for in the first place?

Gabrielmot: xsarien: I got the flu shot in November (or so) and still wound up with the flu. This isn't the fault of the vaccine not doing its job, it's what I'm presuming to be the vaccine's inability to defend against several days of close contact with co-workers who come to work coughing and wheezing instead of staying home like they're supposed to.

/ Admittedly, not a medical professional
// Just seems reasonable that the flu shot isn't meant to be bulletproof
/// If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and call me a jerk

Flu shots, IMO, are pointless unless you have a weakened immune system, are a child, or elderly. Why? Well, flu shots are typically made to attack *last year's flu virus* and may not affect any new mutated versions of the flu virus you encounter after your shot.

Now there *is* a small chance that the same strain of flu from last year is still around and it will help you fight it, but stop being a pansy and let your immune system do what it was designed for. -Seriously, if we can't let our bodies fight small things like the flu, we're just making it more dangerous when there *isn't* a flu shot next time. -Same thing goes for hand sanitation out there not being used by someone doing surgery. Any idea why we have resistant bacteria now? And the same thing can be said about the overuse of antibiotics... You don't need them for a cold, suck it up and get some orange juice.

On the other hand, immunizations for children for serious things like mumps, measles, rubella, etc. are obviously important and very necessary. -Try not to compare these to flu shots.

Incorrect. There are three flu components to the standard annual vaccine. It is fairly frequent that one or two of those components remain unchanged. It isn't that unusual for all three to remain the same. There is an interesting graph that shows typical strain migration from start to finish around the world which shows that these things usually cycle through the population at a level that is at least moderately predictable. The H1 strain that circled around the globe two years ago is still in circulation, for example, and is actually a component. Coverage typically hits around 80% though, again, there are years where they are particularly on, and off.

Goddamnit all to hell, I'm farking agreeing with Thunderpipes.

/I feel unclean.

Andrew Wiggin: BurnShrike: Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.

Who mentioned Christians? Do you feel that insecure about it that you need to bring it in to a discussion about vaccination?

vaccination, religion. let's bring up circumcision and breastfeeding and we'll be all set.


Thunderpipes: Sucks giving my little boy the shots, but I am a reasonable person. You really do have to be a farking moron to not do it. He got 3 of em at 6 months, was not a happy camper. Stick a boob in his mouth, he is fine.


Halfway there...

I really just don't understand why this is even an option unless you have some health problem that precludes you from receiving the vaccine. Don't get your kids vaccinated just because you're stupid, lose your kids to CPS and got to prison. End of story.

You live in a society. You are not alone. You choose to do this. As a result, your "rights" may be very slightly curtailed when they clash with the rights of the people you choose to live around. This is not a new thing. For example, your "right" to be an incredulous conspiracy nut and eschew every intelligent option open to you regarding the health of your children is quite easily overrun by the rights of the people around you to not become infected by easily preventable diseases just because you choose not to use your mental faculties to make smart and obvious decisions.

Like the right to own and shoot a firearm, you have the right to make your own health decisions. And like the responsibility to safely own and shoot a firearm, you have the responsibility to make intelligent health decisions. Your right to make your own health choices ends when those choices start threatening other people for no valid reason.

Outlaw anti-vaxxers.

kimwim: BurnShrike: Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: Your ignorance is not just as valid as my science. Vaccinate your children!

Your self righteousness doesn't excuse your prejudice.Check out Matthew 4:6-7.
Do the prudent thing, vaccinate your children. Most Christians do, despite what some may think on Fark.

Who mentioned Christians? Do you feel that insecure about it that you need to bring it in to a discussion about vaccination?

The article mentioned people using Religion as a reason not to vaccinate. That's how I know you DNRTFA.

You're right. I didn't read the article.

I was referring to the ignorance of how horrible some of these diseases are, how a vaccine works, heard immunity, and why you're an idiot for not vaccinating your children. Science works, biatches.

Andrew Wiggin: in before abbeysomeone


ABBEYSOMEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE! Come out and plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!

"My response usually is for them to look at credible, researched information and data and really make an informed decision for themselves versus what someone told them," said Breaux, a doctor at Brentwood (Tenn.) Pediatrics.

Good luck with that.

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Screw the parents. Who are they to say what can be done to their kids.

Fark, you scare me.

I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

Absolutely! Liberty for everyone. Including the people who don't want to be exposed to someone who hasn't been vaccinated. So go ahead, don't vaccinate your kids. But accept the consequences like an adult -- your choices for doctors, schools, etc, may be considerably more limited as a result. Liberty goes both ways.

Thunderpipes: Aarontology: As an adult, I can be held legally liable for knowingly spreading disease.

We should hold parents who don't vaccinate their kids to the same standards.

Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?

Sucks giving my little boy the shots, but I am a reasonable person. You really do have to be a farking moron to not do it. He got 3 of em at 6 months, was not a happy camper. Stick a boob in his mouth, he is fine.

Already gave him the liberalism shot, he has a job at 7 months old.

boob and tylenol - .8mL right then and there. It'll cut down on the fever and soreness - - - Which isn't really a big deal unless you like to sleep, because a 6 month old with two sore thighs doesn't sleep.

/6 mo well visit last week - little dude weighs 20lbs
/nothing but boob for the first 5 months - now boob and some solids
/my wife rocks for putting up with that and pumping 3 times a day a work
/breast milk, imho, is more imortantant than the shots, but get the damn things anyway.
/slashies linked to autism

Tat'dGreaser: Thunderpipes: Well, they could only spread disease to people who are not vaccinated, correct?

I think the argument is it allows it to mutate and evolve, so that people who are vaccinated are now back at risk.

The argument tends to be -

Some people are immunocompromised, and can't be vaccinated.
Some kids are not vaccinated because they're very young.

Vaccination therefore protects the vaccinated individual from the disease and stops them being a carrier to spread to others. Herd immunity, when taken high enough, has enough non-carriers that those that can't be (or just aren't) vaccinated are also mostly protected. People who don't vaccinate get a free ride on herd immunity because they are unlikely to come into contact with ill folks. This works until such time as it drops low enough (below 80%? dependent on disease virulence and population density?) and epidemics can occur.

This is the situation Jenny McCarthy and others like her are trying to get to. They would have us back in the bad old days when polio killed or crippled a percentage of children, when measels killed some and damaged the brains of others, and when mumps and rubella caused sterility, failed pregnancies and testicular atrophy.

You Are All Sheep: Ask those Tuskegee fellows about getting vaccines.

Tuskegee (new window) did not involve any vaccines, which is why it was such a horrible thing. It was doctors observing the natural progression of syphilis when penicillin was actually available.


Scientists are not trying to conspire against the general population, we're trying to kill the things that kill people. And people like you spread ignorance which can be almost as dangerous as the diseases we fight.

*saving throw against antivax trolls*

The Wakefield "research" was a complete fraud, never mind a ridiculously small sample.

I'll take my discomfort with social settings and tendency to shut everyone else out over pertussis and polio any day of the week. Maybe one of these parents who yammers on about "families suffer the paaaaaaain of autism!" should try asking their "broken" child whether they'd prefer tetanus, assuming they still believe a causal relationship exists between some unidentified component of some vaccines when a correlational one still hasn't been demonstrated.

Mad Scientist: Still no vaccine for creationism.

Or trolls, apparently.

0/10.

You Are All Sheep: Ask those Tuskegee fellows about getting vaccines.

Not a one of them was retarded later, which is more than we can say for you.

ringersol: if you're not going to trust science and medicine, wtf are you at the doctor's office for in the first place?

A more pertinent question has never been asked.

PlatinumDragon: *saving throw against antivax trolls*

The Wakefield "research" was a complete fraud, never mind a ridiculously small sample.

I'll take my discomfort with social settings and tendency to shut everyone else out over pertussis and polio any day of the week. Maybe one of these parents who yammers on about "families suffer the paaaaaaain of autism!" should try asking their "broken" child whether they'd prefer tetanus, assuming they still believe a causal relationship exists between some unidentified component of some vaccines when a correlational one still hasn't been demonstrated.

Almost daily I wish Andrew Wakefield would get measles and wind up sterile, right before dying in a fire. As much as Jenny McCarthy is responsible for facilitating child death, he is patient zero of the retard epidemic.

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: I think kids should be immunized, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

"I don't think people should be able to fire automatic weapons indiscriminately in public, but it's not up to me, and it's not up to you."

You don't have to right to do whatever you want when what you're doing has no discernible benefit and poses obvious risks to innocent bystanders. This is not a new concept.

Makes perfect sense you're liking to run into immunocompromised people who kids who are medically unable to be vaccinated at a doctor's office. Why would they want kids who are willingly working against herd immunity hanging around. Next step lets kick them all out of public schools.

seadoo2006: You know, I was about " " this close from complementing you on the first troll-free post of your tenure here on Fark, but then the last line puts you right back in troll status.

Sigh, oh well, one can certainly still hope ...

Is that what qualifies as a troll these days? Standards have gone down.

The very fact that people are questioning the safety of a vaccine that prevents a horrible, horrible disease (such as polio) with regard to the extremely small chance of having a reaction to it, just goes to show how effective our vaccine program has been. If you'd actually witnessed the devastation this one disease has caused throughout history, there is no way you would not vaccinate your kids.

Unfortunately for a lot of people I think we won't see a difference in their beliefs until the disease makes a resurgence again. It's like a pendulum. Initially everyone got the vaccines because they knew the disease first hand. Now we're swinging back towards not vaccinating until people see the suffering it causes. Then we'll swing back to strong vaccinations again. Unfortunately, in that time a lot of children will die or become crippled. And they're the innocent ones. They didn't decide for themselves not to have the vaccine. Their parents (who probably had the shot) made the decision, and their children will pay for it.