rubi_con_man: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Meanwhile, in some parts of Europe, the total cost for a 4-year degree from a state school (not Oxford, etc) costs just under $30K. Some of these folks pay in four years what we pay in one, if not less than that.

But our system is so much better, right?

Well, they also start specializing at age 12, so for the last 6 years of high school, they drop the 3-4 topics they're weak in and double down on their specialties. They are then admitted to colleges by national exams, testing them and showing their strength and weaknesses, and then they go to a state school that matches their competencies.

Whereas here, we try to educate all children to one standard (college prep) or another (vo-tech) by making them all learn the same stuff - regardless of their strengths and weaknesses, generally exacerbating the winner/loser dichotomy.

We can thank the Department of Education for that, educating children The Government Way since 1979.

Hey, when did aptitude scores start dropping?

All three of my kids just graduated (in a 2 year period) from the UNC system, including graduate school with zero debt to them or to me. It takes a lot of backwards hats to underwrite that and thank you.

Welcome to a world where education is just another debt cow, and will spit you into a world where your bag brown paper wipe of a degree will get you a shot at working for uncle Louie's dry cleaners.

Qualifications? Who you're related to.

Corporate whores only want two four year degrees and 6 years of experience to clean toilets. Money? It's trash shot out of a federal confetti cannon. Land and estate? Debt derivatives. Productivity? That implies actually making something.

Keep f*cking that digital chicken, kids. With any luck, you'll qualify for MORE debt when you hit 35 and you can live in a nice, government owned house. But you'll be ELITE! *snort*

forget occupy wall street its time to occupy the universities.

/money pits
//everytime the gov. makes more $$$ available for student loans they raise tuition

RussianPooper: Health care is more expensive in the US than anywhere else in the world, including places that have government subsidized healthcare.

healthcare in the us is subsidized by the gov't...

imontheinternet: Student loan debt has already overtaken credit card debt, and there are nothing but minimum wage jobs out there to service it.

Over the next year or two, we're going to see a tidal wave of defaults, and knowing the banks, these loans are most likely leveraged through the roof, turning it into another subprime mortgage-style meltdown.

Yup. And they'll sell that debt to the Chinese. On schedule. And the worker monkeys will be told to replace the money they get to cover it. Step back three feet and you will see a very simple business plan based on a fire sale. You don't truly think that sitting on your ass, typing bits of 1/0 code, actually creates any wealth, do you? The game was always rigged, only now it's being moved to a new location.

Forget North Dakota. Lots of students I have known have built up massive student debt and then moved back to China. The jobs are there and the economy is growing at a 9% annual rate. Maybe its time to learn anther language.

Delay: China. The jobs are there and the economy is growing at a 9% annual rate.

Maybe it has something to do with the "job creators" unbolting the whole f*cking machine and moving it to where the money and the labor are the cheapest. "The global economy will fix everything!" They didn't say who for.

i say take out huge loans, get the best/most expensive education possible then flee the country.

impaler: ElizaDoolittle: My hairdresser easily clears $200k/year and he's no Vidal Sassoon. The plumber I call? Yep, ditto.

Ah ha ha ha ha! I would love to visit your mythical world where hair dressers and plumbers are pulling in $200K on a regular basis.

Holy shiat, for real. If a hairdresser wants to pull in 200k a year they had better be the only hairdresser in a 100 mile radius because no one but Vidal Sassoon could do that kind of business without charging $300 for a clip

Nobody on the thread is gonna like this.

When I was at university, one state college, one state university, one fine arts academy - the price of classes and eventual degrees - were such that I could pay for them myself by working then going to school, working then school, working while at school, etc. (I recall $80 a class being about average)

At the Golden Ox, Denver, I knew 3 old-time waiters who made enough back in the day (60s and 70s) to put multiple children through college - on the wages a waiter made.

No way in hell you could you do that today unless your day job is arms dealer, drug lord or a Goldman Sachs butt monkey. Not even high end call girls make the kind of loot needed to pay the stupendously criminal costs of higher education.

Clemkadidlefark: No way in hell you could you do that today unless your day job is arms dealer, drug lord or a Goldman Sachs butt monkey. Not even high end call girls make the kind of loot needed to pay the stupendously criminal costs of higher education.

And yet, we keep telling our kids to get a degree in something that will send them off into a world where the only people making money are snooty whores, arms dealers, dope slingers or pirates in 3,000.00 suits. We've lost the plot, folks. Who we say we are and who we really are have finally caught up to each other.

1. Go to an in-state public school
2. Major in a field that actually teaches skills that are in demand
3. Live frugally
4. Borrow as little as possible
5. Stop farking whining - not everyone gets to be a rock star

I consider myself very fortunate when it comes to this subject, My father worked for the University I attended so my tuition was half off for the first 3 years and free for the forth. So I finished my B.A. with zero dept. Two years later when I went back for my masters my wife was working at the university I attended so I was able to get that debt free too. I don't know how many schools out there offer free tuition to spouses and dependents but more of them should.

trippdogg: 1. Go to an in-state public school
2. Major in a field that actually teaches skills that are in demand
3. Live frugally
4. Borrow as little as possible
5. Stop farking whining - not everyone gets to be a rock star

Well that takes care of that. You can all go home now and stop living a delusion. *snort* Yeah, cause all the kids beating their brains against the hallowed walls of erudition secretly just want a Les Paul and a limo. Any other broad brush inaccuracies and dime store opprobrium you'd like to impart to today's youth, so they can be as happy as you?

College fund helped pay for most of my college education. As long as I can get a passing grade on my 22 page paper in a couple months I will be a college graduate and finish with less than 10k in student loan debt. As opposed to my cousin who will be about 40k deep. Getting a degree in poli sci with a minor in criminal justice from a great criminal justice school. But I think I may go into retail management for a live, been working in retail for 6 years and have ADHD and can't see myself sitting at a desk for 8+ hours a day

bunner: Delay: China. The jobs are there and the economy is growing at a 9% annual rate.

Maybe it has something to do with the "job creators" unbolting the whole f*cking machine and moving it to where the money and the labor are the cheapest. "The global economy will fix everything!" They didn't say who for.

Azteki: i say take out huge loans, get the best/most expensive education possible then flee the country.

What I find odd is that these all these conservative banks allow the students to build up over $100k in debt when they know they are going to return to China and won't pay it back. I assume they think all the other students that remain in the US are good for it?

I heard a presentation by a fellow on the growing Chinese economy and how we could get involved. One of his Power Point slides showed that there have been over 700,000 "returnees" in the last few years. His point was that these folks are skilled, fluent in English and can make your China venture easier. Everyone knows this repatriation is going on. Just taking his numbers at face value that represents roughly $70 billion gone.

Outshined_One: Aar1012: vernonFL: I went to a small state college in the 90s, a party school in Appalachia. Tuition was less than $10,000 per year. I was able to get Sallie Mae loans that I'm almost done paying off.

Fun Fact: Tuition in the 1990s is not the same as tuition today...even at state schools.

/Where are the Engineers to comment about the stupidity of a non-hard science education?

Pissed off that so many PhDs are pushing them out of cushy jobs?

My industry hates phds. Cost too much, think they know more than they do. Some of the dumbest engineers I know are phd

Unhip1: Went to UCLA in 94-96
Paid off in 03

Going to BU grad school now. 3 semesters
Will probably pay off in 10 years if and when I get a job straight out of grad school.

42 yrs old.

Have work pay for grad school. Grad school is easier than undergrad. Easy to work while going, just sucks timewise.

vernonFL: rico567: I look at my situation in 1966

Wow, 1n 1966 you probably didn't learn about DNA or computers. Or did you?

We thought DNA meant Do Not Ask and we used rocks for computers. Best entertainment on campus was all the demonstrations.....

trippdogg: 1. Go to an in-state public school
2. Major in a field that actually teaches skills that are in demand
3. Live frugally
4. Borrow as little as possible
5. Stop farking whining - not everyone gets to be a rock star

you should write for a right-wing blog, then tell us all how wall street needs more tax payer money.

I still fondly recall booting up my Kaypro Super Stone, 30 pebble computer and sliding those beads. Good times.

ElizaDoolittle: Goimir: Obama wants all the kids to pursue higher ed to keep them out of the workforce longer. This will lead to lower unemployment numbers.


You really think the trades are the place to be? Welders, plumbers, electricians, roofers, carpenters, all make less now than they did 10 years ago, and that's before you count inflation.

I think they are the place to be. I didn't say it was a good place to be. You can't outsource plumbing or hairdressing. These are really great jobs if you have talent at them. Trades rock. Try being a 22-year-old journalist.

Even as a 24 year old engineer, I have to agree with this.

Trades such as welding (or even better, weld inspection) have fared very well during the downturn in the economy. If you're a reliable, decently skilled welder who's easy to work and communicate with and you don't mind putting in the hours, its not a stretch to make a paycheck that meets or exceeds what us wet-behind-the-ears engineers wind up with.

While I won't mess with the debate as to whether that makes a good career or not, its not too shabby in the shore term for someone without a marketable degree and a decent pile of debt.

This will make me mightily unpopular, but I think you should only be able to finance (get loans for) up to half of your college education. The rest, you have to work for, or have your family pay for.

I work at a state university, and it's shocking how little students want to work nowadays. Most of our students are middle income or low income, and it's surprising to me how many parents don't want their kids to work, either.

I believe that you appreciate something more when you've worked hard to attain it. When I was in high school and college, I worked some cruddy jobs, but I was proud to do it, because my family wasn't well off, and it meant that I was doing my part for my family. I also liked the feeling of independence it gave me.

I would love for kids today to feel that kind of pride. Working hard and sometimes doing without is not a bad thing!

Dr J Zoidberg: College fund helped pay for most of my college education. As long as I can get a passing grade on my 22 page paper in a couple months I will be a college graduate and finish with less than 10k in student loan debt. As opposed to my cousin who will be about 40k deep. Getting a degree in poli sci with a minor in criminal justice from a great criminal justice school. But I think I may go into retail management for a live living, been working in retail for 6 years and have ADHD and can't see myself sitting at a desk for 8+ hours a day

FTFM
/double majored in English...

But, but... you can just float on the teh magic bubble of teh techz0rs cutting edge and get some douchbag glasses and a Mac Book Air and make teh trilli0nz 4 teh tech guru chopz! Just smirk at teh lusers and drink coffee! Just act preoccupied and type everything. Billions! Dirty fingernails is for loosers! As is, apparently, spelling.

It's a Sunshine Day!: This will make me mightily unpopular, but I think you should only be able to finance (get loans for) up to half of your college education. The rest, you have to work for, or have your family pay for.

I work at a state university, and it's shocking how little students want to work nowadays. Most of our students are middle income or low income, and it's surprising to me how many parents don't want their kids to work, either.

I believe that you appreciate something more when you've worked hard to attain it. When I was in high school and college, I worked some cruddy jobs, but I was proud to do it, because my family wasn't well off, and it meant that I was doing my part for my family. I also liked the feeling of independence it gave me.

I would love for kids today to feel that kind of pride. Working hard and sometimes doing without is not a bad thing!

I agree with your conclusion but disagree with your reasoning. I do think we need to reform student loans, but not for the purpose of students paying a larger percentage of their tuition. The ease of obtaining student loans is what's driving up tuition. The better move would be to take that federal money and offer it as subsidies to colleges and universities based on number of students enrolled. This would achieve the same goal of keeping education affordable (since schools would lower their tuition to bring in students, to get that sweet federal money) while allowing students to graduate without crushing debt.

Obviously this is an oversimplification. There would need to be safeguards to ensure that schools aren't just taking as many students as possible and compromising the quality of education in the process. There would also need to be a transition period, as schools aren't suddenly going to cut their tuition to 1/5 of what it is today just because they're getting subsidies, and that's probably how much they'd have to cut it by for students to be able to afford it on a part time job with minimal loans.

It's a Sunshine Day!: The rest, you have to work for, or have your family pay for.

jobs are easy to come by with the record low unemployment and people have money coming out of their ass to pay for college.

/poor kids? ha ha moomy and daddy can't pay. education is for the rich.

it's "accepted" policy since Reagan to guarantee the rich get richer. College costs are but one part of that policy. Look at the huge jump after 1980 in the top quartile. The intent was obvious, it's time for it to stop.

Forgot_my_password_again: education anything vaguely resembling a useful standard of living is for the rich.

I'm sorry, but we've closed the gates unless you're bringing US money, or you already have money.

FIFM

I am 20 years old. Probably another stupid kid to most of you. But from the one year i did spend in college i can say that it is a complete joke to me. Literally just a bunch of bros and hoes getting shiat arse wasted. It is about the single furthest experience from the working world i could have ever imagined. half these kids never had a job and dont even think its an issue that they have never worked a day in their lives. Not that i dont like to drink or party, but these people are completely blind to the reality of their situation and the world around them. Slap a 20 grand cover charge on that party and call it getting educated people. MY GENERATION IS BONED.

/dropped out to start making money instead of debt

//work full time at a production facility in Chicago stockyards

Delay: it's "accepted" policy since Reagan to guarantee the rich get richer. College costs are but one part of that policy. Look at the huge jump after 1980 in the top quartile. The intent was obvious, it's time for it to stop.

[graphics8.nytimes.com image 480x607]

B, b, but, but... Morning in America! Elite! BMW! The wealth will trickle down! Man, we really WILL buy anything.

And the ostensibly conservative, harrumphing cheerleaders for that whole crock of sh*t that the Reagan era foisted off on us are still convinced that they have a seat in the getaway car, despite the fact that it pulled out in '08 and didn't even leave a 25¢ tip in the piss pail. You want a steady job? Become an assassin for the flatulently wealthy.

1. Be born in the 70s
2. Get into tech during the .COM boom when the only requirement to land a job is a warm body and a pulse.
3. Obtain enough experience to be able to stay in the field after the .COM bubble busts
4. Earn enough to put yourself through college while working

Easy as 1..2..3..4? All you youngins need to go back in time and be born earlier. And get off my lawn.

Thoguh: And that includes room/board costs. There aren't a lot of cheap prison dorms anymore. They are all now lavish suite style living that costs 5 times as much. Schools having an amenities arms race is a big part of the problem.

That's because when your only goal as a nation is to plug a maximum profit pipe into anything that moves money around, you never really allow, believe in or authorize the work now, benefit later model. You just find a cow to milk and slap some granite on the counters in the barn while you smile beatifically at the dolts who want lipstick on their pig as you nod approvingly at their short-sightedness and their parent's fat purses. The only viable major is "strip every dime from the suckers as fast as possible and then fold up the tent". And universities are on to this. And participating. Ever hear your grandparents say that somebody is doing something "like there's no tomorrow"? Ha ha.

It's a Sunshine Day!: This will make me mightily unpopular, but I think you should only be able to finance (get loans for) up to half of your college education. The rest, you have to work for, or have your family pay for.

I work at a state university, and it's shocking how little students want to work nowadays. Most of our students are middle income or low income, and it's surprising to me how many parents don't want their kids to work, either.

I believe that you appreciate something more when you've worked hard to attain it. When I was in high school and college, I worked some cruddy jobs, but I was proud to do it, because my family wasn't well off, and it meant that I was doing my part for my family. I also liked the feeling of independence it gave me.

I would love for kids today to feel that kind of pride. Working hard and sometimes doing without is not a bad thing!

Some of us DID work through college, and still end up in debt. Working full time paid my rent, car, food & books, scholarship paid for a bit more, and I still ended up walking out with $25k in debt, from a state school. Granted, that's not as bad as some have it, but working through school isn't a magic fix (even if you can find a job and pass all your classes while working).

Everybody knows the economy is a con, and yet, we buy into any flimsy facade of what USED to be who tells us they'll teach us how to get in on he con. Politicians, corporations, education... All that has been retooled for the con. And when we believe they're letting us in the back door, we're being conned, too. We're universities actually supposed to be rich kid's hobbies and trade schools? Cause they are, now.