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(Gizmodo)   The dark side of organ donation. Well for starters, you're dead   (gizmodo.com) divider line 64
    More: Interesting, exact science, informed consent, donations  
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4857 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 Mar 2012 at 2:55 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-12 02:42:44 PM
I keep trying to donate my organ, but all the girls turn me down.
 
2012-03-12 02:50:24 PM
Beats waking up in a tub full of ice.
 
2012-03-12 03:07:18 PM
FTFA

The exam for brain death is simple. A doctor splashes ice water in your ears (to look for shivering in the eyes), pokes your eyes with a cotton swab and checks for any gag reflex, among other rudimentary tests. It takes less time than a standard eye exam. Finally, in what's called the apnea test, the ventilator is disconnected to see if you can breathe unassisted. If not, you are brain dead. (Some or all of the above tests are repeated hours later for confirmation.)

Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"

/I got more than ten more wonderful years with my grandfather thanks to organ donation.
 
2012-03-12 03:10:49 PM
I just renewed my license and checked off organ donor, but according to an article a week or two back I'm too big of a slut to donate. How are they going to know that my best organ has been inside the best organ of more than 2 females when I'm dead?
 
2012-03-12 03:14:36 PM

Nickninja: I just renewed my license and checked off organ donor, but according to an article a week or two back I'm too big of a slut to donate. How are they going to know that my best organ has been inside the best organ of more than 2 females when I'm dead?


Nickninja: I just renewed my license and checked off organ donor, but according to an article a week or two back I'm too big of a slut to donate. How are they going to know that my best organ has been inside the best organ of more than 2 females when I'm dead?


They cut it open and count the rings.
 
2012-03-12 03:16:00 PM
The problem is, plenty of BHCs still have brain waves. A bigger problem is that-very, very occasionally- BHC's even start breathing again by themselves. Whether they're actually dead or not, well, that's up for debate.

This article is shameful. So there is a "very, very" small chance that my braindead body could start breathing on it's own, so therefore organ donation is bad? Are you farking kidding me? There is a very, very good chance that my organs could really help someone. But fark that, right? My body might be able to breathe on it's own, even though I have no real brain activity. Totally worth it.
 
2012-03-12 03:17:15 PM
i900.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-12 03:20:29 PM

wildsnowllama: FTFA

The exam for brain death is simple. A doctor splashes ice water in your ears (to look for shivering in the eyes), pokes your eyes with a cotton swab and checks for any gag reflex, among other rudimentary tests. It takes less time than a standard eye exam. Finally, in what's called the apnea test, the ventilator is disconnected to see if you can breathe unassisted. If not, you are brain dead. (Some or all of the above tests are repeated hours later for confirmation.)

Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"

/I got more than ten more wonderful years with my grandfather thanks to organ donation.


I got ten more minutes with my grandfather. We played chess, then I stole his kidneys and jumped back in the time machine.
 
2012-03-12 03:25:31 PM

SnakeLee: My body might be able to breathe on it's own, even though I have no real brain activity. Totally worth it.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-03-12 03:27:55 PM
I read the linked WSJ article, and I think the writer was being a little overdramatic about the informed consent issue. By agreeing to become an organ donor, you are giving your informed consent. You can research the tests that are done to determine if you will become a donor, you can research conditions that are treated with donated organs. If you want to get really pedantic about it, write up a pamphlet that's given out at the DMV with the information you need to know.

The only reason you don't get to specify "oh, my heart should go to this person, my eyes should go to this person" is because a dead organ donor is precisely that, dead. You are no longer a human being with legal agency. It's like complaining that preparing a will removes your right to legally consent to people taking your stuff after you die.

/Proud organ donor. Give away whatever will help someone, offer the rest to science, and then cremate whatever remains.
 
2012-03-12 03:28:49 PM
26.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-03-12 03:31:55 PM

SnakeLee: This article is shameful.


I concur with your analysis.
 
2012-03-12 03:33:21 PM

DarnoKonrad: SnakeLee: This article is shameful.

I concur with your analysis.


People who agree with me get TF
 
2012-03-12 03:34:15 PM

SnakeLee: DarnoKonrad: SnakeLee: This article is shameful.

I concur with your analysis.

People who agree with me get TF


I can't argue with that!
 
2012-03-12 03:34:41 PM
www.agillian.com
 
2012-03-12 03:35:50 PM
Fark that.. they can have my organ when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
 
2012-03-12 03:46:16 PM

SnakeLee: The problem is, plenty of BHCs still have brain waves. A bigger problem is that-very, very occasionally- BHC's even start breathing again by themselves. Whether they're actually dead or not, well, that's up for debate.

This article is shameful. So there is a "very, very" small chance that my braindead body could start breathing on it's own, so therefore organ donation is bad? Are you farking kidding me? There is a very, very good chance that my organs could really help someone. But fark that, right? My body might be able to breathe on it's own, even though I have no real brain activity. Totally worth it.



Small chance...have taken a look at Congress, it seem BHC can lead quite active lives.

/but then again, I think that really just proved your point even more that their organs should be harvested.
 
2012-03-12 03:46:27 PM
My punk rock band name if I ever start one: Beating Heart Cadavers.
 
2012-03-12 04:04:24 PM
My best friend Jack donated part of his liver to a friend.

I had dinner at Jacks house last night. Looked alive to me.
 
2012-03-12 04:18:43 PM
I love having my personal paranoia validated.

I didn't check the box; my wife can figure it out if the time comes. The last thing I need is to go in for a standard blood test and then wake up in a chop shop somewhere because I was a match some billionaire's mistress.
 
2012-03-12 04:20:02 PM

SnakeLee: DarnoKonrad: SnakeLee: This article is shameful.

I concur with your analysis.

People who agree with me get TF


... I... agree with you!
 
2012-03-12 04:21:06 PM

wildsnowllama: Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"


It's the same Dr. that stands to make hundreds of thousands off your corpse doing the testing.

/ex wife used to work for Gift of Hope (formerly ROBI)
 
2012-03-12 04:31:19 PM
They should just make it so if you want to be an organ recipient you have to have been an eligible organ donor for the last 2-3 years or at least move them to the front of the list.
 
2012-03-12 04:31:23 PM

Sybarite: [www.agillian.com image 350x263]


newslang89.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-03-12 04:35:50 PM
This is a big conflict area for me. For most of my life I happily checked the box to be an organ donor, and felt that it was an unquestionably 'good thing' to do.

Then I spent a month in the hospital, and almost died. What I found was that although the vast majority of people at the hospital were there because they wanted to help people, there was also a small (but powerful) subset for whom running a for-profit hospital is a business.

Here is one example. My surgery was on my digestive tract, and on the day I was scheduled to be released (5 days after surgery) the stitches gave out, and I ended up with acute peritonitis. For those interested, I woke up with pain in my abdominal cavity that felt like millions of red-hot needles perforating every internal organ I had. I hit the nurse call button, and then my hands took an iron grip on the bed-rails in order to lock me into motionlessness, because any movement multiplied the pain.

Because of the pain, I could not speak intelligibly, but through a series of yes/no questions they quickly determined the issue, and I was immediately surrounded by competent people doing things very quickly to save me. A nurse readied the morphine to dull the pain, but was stopped by a senior person with a surgical release. He said I needed to sign it before receiving any pain medication, because it wouldn't be valid if I were sedated.

Stop here for a moment and imagine the scene. I was in the most intense pain imaginable, and was physically locked into a rictus to prevent any slight movement because it magnified the pain. My room was filled with capable people ready and willing to help me, and they were stopped, literally brought to a silent standstill, by someone with authority who wanted a legal release, even though I had one on file from the original surgery. Beyond, that, I was physically incapable of signing, and mentally incapable of reading/reviewing/agreeing to anything.

I shook my head a little, as much as I could. He then *pried* my hands from the rails, *forced* the clipboard into one hand, *forced* the pen into the other, and *forced* my hand close to the clipboard. From the moment he started this process, I was screaming, because the movement was causing unbelievable amounts of pain.

With every ounce of willpower I had, I flung the clipboard like a frisbee at his head. I was filled with hate for him, as he was prepared to let me writhe in pain, essentially torturing me into signing a release form, trying to blackmail me with pain. At that moment, the pain was so bad that I was prepared to die to have it end. And I don't have a suicidal bone in my body, I love life, but I needed that pain to end in whatever manner it could be stopped.

So, I was tortured and denied pain meds by someone who wanted a release signed. After my surgery, an administrator-type came in and wanted me to sign a post-surgical release. I refused.

Now, they did all of this simply as a paperwork exercise, to bolster their legal standing if things ever came down to a malpractice suit - a fairly unlikely event, from a statistical perspective. Now, imagine what someone with these ethics would be capable of doing if there were literally millions of dollars on the table, with a very high chance of successfully garnering those millions, and they were asked to make a judgment call.

I trust my family in that case.
 
2012-03-12 04:52:11 PM

EngineerBoy: there was also a small (but powerful) subset for whom running a for-profit hospital is a business.


Never have elective surgery done at a Kaiser Permanente facility.

/non-elective surgery? Well buddy boy, you don't exactly have a choice now do ya?
//aim for the university teaching hospital if at all possible
 
2012-03-12 05:31:25 PM
My sister-in-law was an ICU nurse at Washington Hospital Center for 15 years, and then got a JD from Georgetown Law School and switched careers. She has always been adament about the fact that she doesn't trust the medical profession enough to agree to donate her organs.
 
2012-03-12 05:33:28 PM

Huggermugger: My sister-in-law was an ICU nurse at Washington Hospital Center for 15 years, and then got a JD from Georgetown Law School and switched careers. She has always been adament about the fact that she doesn't trust the medical profession enough to agree to donate her organs.


Yeah, those death panels are just waiting for nothing more than you to fall asleep so they can cut you up for your tasty tasty liver.
 
2012-03-12 05:48:52 PM
I hope that my death is quick, not very painful, and very clearly determines that I am in fact dead, considering the kind of legal hoops someone can jump through to keep my breathing corpse alive.

/remembers Terry Shiavo
//eugh
 
2012-03-12 05:49:03 PM
see the movie 'the coma'. omfg. scary.
 
2012-03-12 05:49:44 PM

BurnShrike: Yeah, those death panels are just waiting for nothing more than you to fall asleep so they can cut you up for your tasty tasty liver.


No, they're waiting for you to jail walk so you can be cut up for the organ banks
 
2012-03-12 06:00:27 PM

Yaxe: I hope that my death is quick, not very painful, and very clearly determines that I am in fact dead, considering the kind of legal hoops someone can jump through to keep my breathing corpse alive.


A living will can make things very simple for you.
 
2012-03-12 06:04:03 PM
More like the downside of not having a DNR...
 
2012-03-12 06:21:10 PM
This article is an emotional attempt to reduce organ donation. It contains several inaccuracies.

Unlike what the article implies, there is not a single exam for brain death that all hospitals follow. Some hospitals use nuclear medicine scans to determine if your brain is uptaking any oxygen. Some use variations on the apnea test. It can be a difficult thing to measure, and there is still room for judgment. Most doctors order more tests if there is any question. This is true whether or not you're talking about organ donation - at some point, the doctor needs to declare death, and sometimes this is easy and they may only perform some simple tests and sometimes this is not easy and they order more extensive tests. You do not gain or lose any informed consent by being a donor because the doctors determining death have absolutely nothing to do with organ donation.

The article failed to mention the fact that the organ donation team and the team of doctors keeping you alive are separate. If the reporter had found a single hospital in the entire US where this was not true, this would have been actual news (instead of whatever this article was). The doctors keeping you alive have absolutely no incentive to collect your organs. They get paid the same either way, and they need to declare you as dead or alive at some point.

The article cited a study from 1970's to call into question the ability to declare brain death without an EEG. Believe it or not, most hospitals have better equipment and techniques today than they did in 1970.

The story about the patient with severe head trauma who the anesthesiologist claimed started breathing and reacting after being declared brain dead is interesting, and I would like to know more. I would also like to know how the anesthesiologist could possibly have sat there and watched while they took the organs if this were indeed the case. Most doctors are a bit too risk adverse to kill a patient if there is another doctor standing there telling the family that the patient is still alive.

Still, you will have more in common biologically with a living person than with a person whose heart has stopped. Your vital organs will function, you'll maintain your body temperature, and your wounds will continue to heal. You can still get bedsores, have heart attacks and get fever from infections.

This is a transparent emotional appeal. What the brain dead do not have in common with a living person is the ability to think or feel.
 
2012-03-12 06:42:44 PM
the majority of organ donors are victims of head trauma, who end up being ruled dead based on brain-death criteria. And brain-death diagnosis isn't really an exact science:

If I'm banged up enough that doctors think I'm brain-dead, I'd rather have them finish the job rather than try to revive me.
 
2012-03-12 07:26:06 PM

wildsnowllama: FTFA

The exam for brain death is simple. A doctor splashes ice water in your ears (to look for shivering in the eyes), pokes your eyes with a cotton swab and checks for any gag reflex, among other rudimentary tests. It takes less time than a standard eye exam. Finally, in what's called the apnea test, the ventilator is disconnected to see if you can breathe unassisted. If not, you are brain dead. (Some or all of the above tests are repeated hours later for confirmation.)

Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"

/I got more than ten more wonderful years with my grandfather thanks to organ donation.


I got 3 more years with my brother thanks to organ donation
 
2012-03-12 07:39:19 PM
Meh. I'd rather be taken out while I'm pretty much brain dead instead of some kind of slow, lingering death.
 
2012-03-12 07:41:28 PM
I figger if I'm in the hospatle for head troma, and they want to take my orgins. I ain't gonna be able to stop em and whatever I done musta been pretty dang sweet. So prolly totally worth it. shiat yeah!
 
2012-03-12 07:44:17 PM
My 17 cousin miraculously started breathing on his own after being "brain dead" after a really bad car accident. He's now legally blind, mentally handicapped, and can never live on his own. I think the him from before would rather he'd be dead.
 
2012-03-12 07:52:13 PM
The WSJ article is utter crap. It claims that when you tick the "donor" box you are denied informed consent when the time comes.

That's utterly ridiculous.
 
2012-03-12 07:55:33 PM
Some people just don't want something that's so big.

i43.tinypic.com
 
2012-03-12 08:03:58 PM
You are an organ donor if you have brain death.

You are a tissue donor if it is not brain death.

That article was complete fecal matter.
 
2012-03-12 08:28:54 PM

SnakeLee: DarnoKonrad: SnakeLee: This article is shameful.

I concur with your analysis.

People who agree with me get TF


I might agree with you, but I've never been eaten before and have no clue how strong a stomach you have.

//What's this TF you speak of? Is that like the VD?
 
2012-03-12 08:29:02 PM

SnakeLee: DarnoKonrad: SnakeLee: This article is shameful.

I concur with your analysis.

People who agree with me get TF


No they don't!
 
2012-03-12 08:30:10 PM

Shirley Ujest: You are an organ donor if you have brain death.

You are a tissue donor if it is not brain death.

That article was complete fecal matter.


Uhhh, if you're not brain dead, umm...then??

i43.tinypic.com
 
2012-03-12 09:20:58 PM
The problem is, plenty of BHCs still have brain waves. A bigger problem is that-very, very occasionally- BHC's even start breathing again by themselves. Whether they're actually dead or not, well, that's up for debate. It's that uncertainty that many people are, quite rightly, starting to worry about.


1.bp.blogspot.com

What "Whether they're actually dead or not, well, that's up for debate." looks like
 
2012-03-12 09:27:18 PM

R.A.Danny: wildsnowllama: Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"

It's the same Dr. that stands to make hundreds of thousands off your corpse doing the testing.

/ex wife used to work for Gift of Hope (formerly ROBI)


What?! You mean people get paid to do their jobs?
 
2012-03-12 10:19:18 PM

EngineerBoy: Because of the pain, I could not speak intelligibly...


When my wife was in labor some dickhead came in before she could get her epidural saying she needed to sign some papers. Long before hand we had confirmed that everything was signed and in place just so this wouldn't happen. I asked if I could sign for her and was told no. After a bit of arguing and reading the documents myself (playing interference for my wife so she could focus) - I just told the guy to GTFO or I'd personally sue him.

For our second kid I left a standing order - if you're not on my approved doctor-in-the-room list - I'll sue just to cause immense headaches and be an annoying f*ck.

/Now, not that I would actually sue, but it's funny how you say two simple words and everyone leaves you alone.
 
2012-03-12 10:45:58 PM

R.A.Danny: wildsnowllama: Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"

It's the same Dr. that stands to make hundreds of thousands off your corpse doing the testing.

/ex wife used to work for Gift of Hope (formerly ROBI)


The total cost involved for a kidney transplant is maybe $60k (at most!).

The doctor who determines brain death gets $0.

The transplant team is completely separate from the team of doctors keeping you alive. It's the latter team (the docs who are keeping you alive) who make the determination of brain death. They have absolutely no financial incentive to do so.

It's too bad your ex didn't explain how organ transplantation works to you.
 
2012-03-12 10:50:50 PM

draypresct: R.A.Danny: wildsnowllama: Then I fail to see the problem. It's not a doctor walks into to your room, glances at the monitor, then says to the attending "Well, he's dead. Cut 'em, pack 'em, ship 'em, call Bob and tell him I'll be at tee time a little early today!"

It's the same Dr. that stands to make hundreds of thousands off your corpse doing the testing.

/ex wife used to work for Gift of Hope (formerly ROBI)

The total cost involved for a kidney transplant is maybe $60k (at most!).

The doctor who determines brain death gets $0.

The transplant team is completely separate from the team of doctors keeping you alive. It's the latter team (the docs who are keeping you alive) who make the determination of brain death. They have absolutely no financial incentive to do so.

It's too bad your ex didn't explain how organ transplantation works to you.


Missing the point. The kidneys themselves are what's priceless.
 
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