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(LiveLeak)   Bad: poor airspeed control leads to unintentional spin in an aircraft full of passengers. Good: the passengers are all skydivers   (liveleak.com) divider line 60
    More: Scary  
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6924 clicks; posted to Video » on 11 Mar 2012 at 11:35 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-11 01:56:11 AM
Well, that works.
 
2012-03-11 03:06:20 AM
P.A.R.E.

Power back
Ailerons neutral
Rudder opposite direction of turn (when unsure of spin direction (e.g. in clouds) look at turn coordinator and "step on the ball"
Elevator down (PUSH)
 
2012-03-11 03:10:00 AM
Wow.
 
2012-03-11 04:03:16 AM
Holy crap!
 
2012-03-11 09:58:58 AM
Inadvertent my ass. They took all damn day to get out of the airplane and the pilot couldn't recover quicker than that?

This looks like it was thought up in the bar the night before.
 
2012-03-11 11:18:51 AM

edmo: Inadvertent my ass. They took all damn day to get out of the airplane and the pilot couldn't recover quicker than that?


Although some skydivers are crazy enough to try that, not very likely considering one of the passengers appears to have been a first-time skydiver who is disabled.

To get this out of the way for later: a stall in an aircraft has nothing to do with the engines. It is what happens when the angle of attack (the angle the relative wind is hitting the wing) exceeds 16 degrees or so. The air can't bend down far enough to follow the top surface of the wing and separates into large-scale turbulence. Bottom line is the wing stops generating lift and the plane becomes a falling rock.

Worse is that it's possible for one wing to reach this state before the other, frequently because you're in at least a slight turn where the inside wing of the turn is going slightly slower than the outside wing. When this happens the stalled wing is no longer generating lift while the other one still is, hence the plane begins to spin.

The basic solution is to stomp the rudder opposite to the spin direction to slow the wing that's still flying and increase the speed of the wing that's not, and to push the nose down to globally reduce the angle of attack.
 
2012-03-11 11:57:12 AM
I liked the Picard-style "WTF is this shiat?!" hand gesture on the copilot's shoulder from one of the skydivers toward the end.
 
2012-03-11 12:11:28 PM
The music made me want to see that video end in a fireball.
 
2012-03-11 12:21:33 PM
Tip to viewers: Fast forward to 2:40, turn the volume off.
 
2012-03-11 12:23:50 PM

edmo: Inadvertent my ass. They took all damn day to get out of the airplane and the pilot couldn't recover quicker than that?

This looks like it was thought up in the bar the night before.


A plane spiraling downward and out of control is not one that I'd be in a hurry to jump out of (I've made 160 jumps). The guy in the yellow t-shirt was standing at the door and checking his altimeter. If you don't have a good feel for when you can exit the plane without part of it whipping around and knocking you unconscious on your way out the door, then it's probably a good idea to use as much time as you can to figure it out.
 
2012-03-11 12:28:36 PM
I like the little tips at the end, especially "If the loadmaster/jumpmaster/senior jumper leaves without saying anything or is gone when you look around then I strongly suggest you leave as well..."

At about 5:00, one jumper who has exited the aircraft and is wearing a helmet cam comes close to colliding with the aircraft. That looked like a "shiat-oh-dear moment".

/Turned the sound off as quickly as I could.
 
2012-03-11 12:31:59 PM
"Atlas Angel Gabriel was declared below the minimum safe approach speed
on run-in."

Pardon?

Is this related to the cross beams askew on treadle?
 
2012-03-11 12:39:08 PM
Hence forth, all Atlas Angel pilots will undergo more
intense stall and spin training as part of their initial and bi-annual
re-currency training. This will enable pilots to identify and
pro-actively correct situations that may result in a stall or spin.


This is a nice demonstration of how "pro-active" is not a word.
 
2012-03-11 01:11:12 PM

vossiewulf: edmo: Inadvertent my ass. They took all damn day to get out of the airplane and the pilot couldn't recover quicker than that?

Although some skydivers are crazy enough to try that, not very likely considering one of the passengers appears to have been a first-time skydiver who is disabled.

To get this out of the way for later: a stall in an aircraft has nothing to do with the engines. It is what happens when the angle of attack (the angle the relative wind is hitting the wing) exceeds 16 degrees or so. The air can't bend down far enough to follow the top surface of the wing and separates into large-scale turbulence. Bottom line is the wing stops generating lift and the plane becomes a falling rock.

Worse is that it's possible for one wing to reach this state before the other, frequently because you're in at least a slight turn where the inside wing of the turn is going slightly slower than the outside wing. When this happens the stalled wing is no longer generating lift while the other one still is, hence the plane begins to spin.

The basic solution is to stomp the rudder opposite to the spin direction to slow the wing that's still flying and increase the speed of the wing that's not, and to push the nose down to globally reduce the angle of attack.


I thought you'd want to widen the spin as much as possible, pushing the rudder in the same direction. Wouldn't the stabilizer and rudder be useless otherwise, as there wouldn't be enough air passing over the control surface to make them effective?

....Not a pilot. Not even pretending to know what I'm talking about, I'm thinking out loud.
 
2012-03-11 01:21:30 PM
That was a very gentle spin.

I like the guy tapping the pilot as if to say "what are you doing?" and the pilot looking back like "I have no idea"

/Maintain thy airspeed lest the ground rise up and smite thee.
 
2012-03-11 01:27:33 PM

Boondock3806: The guy in the yellow t-shirt was standing at the door and checking his altimeter.


I noticed that. He's clearly trying measure the risk of getting whacked by the aircraft as he jumps out, versus not having enough time to get out and pull the cord. Having your own altimeter is handy for those kinds of calculations.
 
2012-03-11 02:11:24 PM
Oh great. Now I've got sweaty palms.

Good find, Subby.
 
2012-03-11 02:30:40 PM

indarwinsshadow: I thought you'd want to widen the spin as much as possible, pushing the rudder in the same direction.


No, that just makes the spin tighter and faster. Don't do that.
 
2012-03-11 02:49:41 PM
Muting the audio and replacing it with the guy's favorite song really enhances the experience in videos like this.
 
2012-03-11 02:51:03 PM

vossiewulf: indarwinsshadow: I thought you'd want to widen the spin as much as possible, pushing the rudder in the same direction.

No, that just makes the spin tighter and faster. Don't do that.


Good thing I'm not a pilot then. :)
 
2012-03-11 02:53:17 PM

indarwinsshadow: I thought you'd want to widen the spin as much as possible, pushing the rudder in the same direction. Wouldn't the stabilizer and rudder be useless otherwise, as there wouldn't be enough air passing over the control surface to make them effective?....Not a pilot. Not even pretending to know what I'm talking about, I'm thinking out loud.


That'd make you spin faster. That's worse.

The (simplified) cause of a spin is that one wing is "more" stalled than the other (the inside wing, which will be traveling slower too), so one creates more drag and the other creates more lift. You can get out of this situation if you can equalize the lift/drag on both wings, which is most easily done by slowing down the spin. That's usually accomplished by deflecting the rudder against the spin, but some aircraft designs require aileron use too.

If you get far enough into a spin that it flattens out (nose rises) then your tail surfaces might be pretty much useless, at which point your best bet is to try and shift the center of gravity forward somehow. Dumping half a dozen jumpers out of the back is pretty much the only way I can think of doing this, oddly enough.

/instructor
//spin theory is... complicated
 
2012-03-11 03:02:12 PM
There's a fun anecdote I've heard from back in the early days of flying, when we were still figuring all this stuff out. It was discovered that military pilots who lost control of the aircraft, said "fark this," and bailed out: A) lived, and B) watched the aircraft recover itself and fly away for a bit before crashing. Pilots who tried to recover the aircraft almost always pancaked into the ground. It's one of those cases where your instinctual, seat-of-the-pants reaction is just wrong.

/not a pilot
//all of the above may be complete bullshiat
 
2012-03-11 03:06:50 PM

indarwinsshadow: I thought you'd want to widen the spin as much as possible, pushing the rudder in the same direction. Wouldn't the stabilizer and rudder be useless otherwise, as there wouldn't be enough air passing over the control surface to make them effective?....Not a pilot. Not even pretending to know what I'm talking about, I'm thinking out loud.


It does seem that spin recovery in an airplane in the simple case is the opposite of spin recovery in a car in the simple case.

I believe that's because the control surfaces in a car are in front of you, and in a plane, behind you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(flight) (new window)

Seems to be a pretty good, relatively simple, and understandable article, naturally it has been rated "c quality".
 
2012-03-11 03:07:05 PM
A spinning plane is not out of control and my understanding is at a speed which will not produce structural failure. I have seen it as the recommended maneuver to descend through the clouds when caught on top without appropriate instruments. Prime mention was in a sailplane handbook. Had to know you had sufficient clearance cloud base to ground for pulling out.

Flat spin totally different type of flying altogether. Altogether.
 
2012-03-11 03:13:13 PM

Thats an 827: I have seen it as the recommended maneuver to descend through the clouds when caught on top without appropriate instruments. Prime mention was in a sailplane handbook. Had to know you had sufficient clearance cloud base to ground for pulling out.


Just to be clear, any situation where you'd consider intentionally spinning down through a cloud as your best option must not have any other ones, period.
 
2012-03-11 03:14:23 PM
Center stick
Reduce power
Full opposite rudder
Slowly increase power on recovery
Slowly pull stick back
Clean pants
Rinse, Repeat?

I love how the shydiver taps the pilot on the shoulder with the "I'm outta here dude, sucks to be you" look.
 
2012-03-11 03:28:36 PM

Thats an 827: A spinning plane is not out of control and my understanding is at a speed which will not produce structural failure.


And I just can't resist plane geek threads... no, that is not true. A spin may be entered intentionally, but a plane in a spin has departed controlled flight. If the plane has stable spin characteristics a spin may be exited anywhere from at will to fairly quickly, but until both wings are unstalled the plane is not fully under control of the pilot.

Further there are great variances in spin characteristics from safe as hell Cessnas to modern fighter aircraft with "relaxed static stability", which basically means they're uncontrollable without a computer. If they depart and enter any kind of a spin only the computer is going to get them back out. And even before fly by wire and computer controlled flight, some fighters were right on the hair edge of stability and had horrible spin characteristics, the F-4 being a good example; aircrew had orders to immediately eject if a spin was entered below 10k feet. And in some really unstable aircraft if there wasn't a computer to recover, they can get into horrendous tumbling spins, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could start tearing themselves apart. But a stable spinner like a Cessna, yes, there's no meaningful load on the airframe, from that standpoint it's totally safe.
 
2012-03-11 03:39:42 PM

lohphat: P.A.R.E.

Power back
Ailerons neutral
Rudder opposite direction of turn (when unsure of spin direction (e.g. in clouds) look at turn coordinator and "step on the ball"
Elevator down (PUSH)


Don't step on the ball. The ball always gets pushed towards the outside of the aircraft in a spin. To the left if the instrument is on the left side, and to the right if the instrument is on the right side. You want to look at the gyro part of the TC during a spin. Not the ball.

Before the stall, yes, step on the ball to stay coordinated and to not yaw. After the stall, ignore the ball.

However, look at the PARE checklist above and then look at the video. Note the spin was to the right. Then pay attention whenever the tail was in view. When that last dude was still inside and he kept looking at the tail, the elevator was UP. When he finally left, and they slow-motioned the view of the tail, the rudder was deflected to the RIGHT.

The pilot was holding pro-spin inputs. To get out of the spin, the rudder should have been to the left, and the elevator neutral or down.

In my opinion, this was not accidental, this was a deliberate stunt. Why? I don't know. In the USA, it is illegal to skydive through clouds. (14 CFR 105.29). Looking at the increasing cloud cover, it looked like they were going to get trapped above. Quite conveniently, they spun through a hole in the cloud cover.

--Carlos V.
 
2012-03-11 03:46:26 PM
vossiewulf

indarwinsshadow: I thought you'd want to widen the spin as much as possible, pushing the rudder in the same direction.

No, that just makes the spin tighter and faster. Don't do that.


No no no: You break a spin using full ailerons, full power, cranking back as hard as you can on the stick, and yelling like a girl.
 
2012-03-11 03:54:24 PM

studebaker hoch: No no no: You break a spin using full ailerons, full power, cranking back as hard as you can on the stick, and yelling like a girl.


We call that "taking it like a man".
 
2012-03-11 03:56:18 PM
As I said sailplane reference. First you must know your plane and what you are doing, second don't have the instrumentation for a safe decent through overcast third have enough ground clearance to recover. on top of overcast is a gnarly whatcha gonna do Willis time. The statement was made as a life saving options when others are not available.

The new vectored thrust may make jet spins a different type of flying altogether.

Sweetest plane to spin was the old 85 horse Aeronica Champion. RPM at 1800. Slight nose up trim. Straight and level then climb, enter a stall and spin. Let it do a couple of turns then take hands and feet off of controls and sit there. The plane will do all the work it's self on pull out.
 
2012-03-11 04:00:02 PM

Thats an 827: As I said sailplane reference. First you must know your plane and what you are doing, second don't have the instrumentation for a safe decent through overcast third have enough ground clearance to recover. on top of overcast is a gnarly whatcha gonna do Willis time. The statement was made as a life saving options when others are not available.

The new vectored thrust may make jet spins a different type of flying altogether.

Sweetest plane to spin was the old 85 horse Aeronica Champion. RPM at 1800. Slight nose up trim. Straight and level then climb, enter a stall and spin. Let it do a couple of turns then take hands and feet off of controls and sit there. The plane will do all the work it's self on pull out.


My flight instructor used to tell us of 14 turn spins over what later became LAX (she grew up in Torrance, was in the '32 Olympics, flew P-51s during the War, Powder Puff Derby winner, taught at least one astronaut) could outdrink and stay up longer than any of us college students back in the early 80s.

/not sure about the outdrinking part
 
2012-03-11 04:16:03 PM
So this commercial rated pilot really said "I was just about to tell my paying passengers that we were too close to the clouds to jump legally, when we accidentally entered a low RPM stable spin. Imagine my sheer terror! Fortunately, every one of our paying customers got out safely, thank goodness, and then I made a miraculous save and landed without incident".
 
2012-03-11 04:38:07 PM

Thats an 827: The statement was made as a life saving options when others are not available.


Yeah, that's a perfectly valid time to use a spin. It was used constantly in WWI as an oh shiat that guy is about to kill me escape maneuver from turning fights.
 
2012-03-11 04:54:17 PM
So why is he holding pro-spin inputs the entire time?

Incidentally, the jumpers bailing aids in spin recovery. That moves the CG forward, and a forward CG is easier to recover than a rear CG. (more lever arm for the elevator to break the stall)

--Carlos V.
 
2012-03-11 06:02:10 PM
vossiewulf
To get this out of the way for later: a stall in an aircraft has nothing to do with the engines. It is what happens when the angle of attack (the angle the relative wind is hitting the wing) exceeds 16 degrees or so.

Good god I hope you're not a pilot.

Stalling a fixed-wing aircraft

A fixed-wing aircraft can be made to stall in any pitch attitude or bank angle or at any airspeed


Do I need to post pictures of planes climbing at an angle greater than 16 degrees?
 
2012-03-11 06:18:18 PM
GOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSEEE!!!
 
2012-03-11 06:25:15 PM

OnlyM3:

Do I need to post pictures of planes climbing at an angle greater than 16 degrees?


No, but you do need to learn the difference between pitch and angle of attack.

www.kwaree.com
 
2012-03-11 06:31:35 PM

OnlyM3: Do I need to post pictures of planes climbing at an angle greater than 16 degrees?


Yes, clearly. And an accompanying description of the underlying theory.
 
2012-03-11 06:38:27 PM

unbelver: lohphat: P.A.R.E.

Power back
Ailerons neutral
Rudder opposite direction of turn (when unsure of spin direction (e.g. in clouds) look at turn coordinator and "step on the ball"
Elevator down (PUSH)

Don't step on the ball. The ball always gets pushed towards the outside of the aircraft in a spin. To the left if the instrument is on the left side, and to the right if the instrument is on the right side. You want to look at the gyro part of the TC during a spin. Not the ball.

Before the stall, yes, step on the ball to stay coordinated and to not yaw. After the stall, ignore the ball.

However, look at the PARE checklist above and then look at the video. Note the spin was to the right. Then pay attention whenever the tail was in view. When that last dude was still inside and he kept looking at the tail, the elevator was UP. When he finally left, and they slow-motioned the view of the tail, the rudder was deflected to the RIGHT.

The pilot was holding pro-spin inputs. To get out of the spin, the rudder should have been to the left, and the elevator neutral or down.

In my opinion, this was not accidental, this was a deliberate stunt. Why? I don't know. In the USA, it is illegal to skydive through clouds. (14 CFR 105.29). Looking at the increasing cloud cover, it looked like they were going to get trapped above. Quite conveniently, they spun through a hole in the cloud cover.

--Carlos V.


Came here to say this.
 
2012-03-11 06:56:07 PM

OnlyM3:
It is what happens when the angle of attack (the angle the relative wind is hitting the wing) exceeds 16 degrees or so.

Good god I hope you're not a pilot.


From wiki: "In fluid dynamics, a stall is a reduction in the lift coefficient generated by a foil as angle of attack increases. This occurs when the critical angle of attack of the foil is exceeded. The critical angle of attack is typically about 15 degrees, but it may vary significantly depending on the fluid, foil, and Reynolds number."

Angle of attack: "In fluid dynamics, angle of attack (AOA, or \alpha (Greek letter alpha)) is the angle between a reference line on a lifting body (often the chord line of an airfoil) and the vector representing the relative motion between the lifting body and the fluid through which it is moving."

Good god I hope you're not a pilot, or learn to read some day.
 
2012-03-11 07:30:57 PM
I am a professional commercial pilot to be a (douchebag I know) and have A LOT of hours as a flight instructor. I have spun many a planes and taught many a student spins. I have also endorsed many a pilot for their spin endorsements. I have not spun a plane that once established in a full spin couldn't break it after AT MOST three full rotations.

This was intentional. I guarantee or that pilot/pilots were TERRIBLE pilots.

First off, he would of had many indications that he was about to stall without even including the stall horn in that.

Secondly, as soon as the nose started to break one way he would have been able to stop the yaw immediately with opposite rudder.

and Lastly, He was in a nose low attitude once in the spin, adequate airflow was overtop of those wings to recover.

He was having a go is what he was doing.

Or again just a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE pilot.

/Period (.)
 
2012-03-11 07:51:09 PM

Jewdown: I am a professional commercial pilot to be a (douchebag I know) and have A LOT of hours as a flight instructor. I have spun many a planes and taught many a student spins. I have also endorsed many a pilot for their spin endorsements. I have not spun a plane that once established in a full spin couldn't break it after AT MOST three full rotations.

This was intentional. I guarantee or that pilot/pilots were TERRIBLE pilots.

First off, he would of had many indications that he was about to stall without even including the stall horn in that.

Secondly, as soon as the nose started to break one way he would have been able to stop the yaw immediately with opposite rudder.

and Lastly, He was in a nose low attitude once in the spin, adequate airflow was overtop of those wings to recover.

He was having a go is what he was doing.

Or again just a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE pilot.

/Period (.)


I have a dangerously low amount of hours and haven't flown in way too long, but I figured he was out of weight and balance. I don't know where CG should be on that aircraft, but just before the spin began, one skydiver climbed out and walked back on the rail, and then a relatively high mass object jumped from just behind the pilot which would force the CG back even further.

I absolutely cannot imagine any pilot intentionally spinning the aircraft with passengers in it and an open door unless he and they were all James Bond stuntsmen.

That said, I also wondered why the prop was turning when the skydivers loaded.
 
2012-03-11 08:14:46 PM

Jewdown: I am a professional commercial pilot to be a (douchebag I know) and have A LOT of hours as a flight instructor.


Aren't instructors professional commercial pilots?
 
2012-03-11 08:28:24 PM

costermonger: Jewdown: I am a professional commercial pilot to be a (douchebag I know) and have A LOT of hours as a flight instructor.

Aren't instructors professional commercial pilots?


Actually yes they are but not all commercial pilots are instructors as well. It is a different certificate all together.
 
2012-03-11 09:05:57 PM

Jewdown: Actually yes they are but not all commercial pilots are instructors as well. It is a different certificate all together.


Was more of a reference to the "to be" part. I've been instructing for years and occasionally I get asked by people I meet outside of work if I want to "go commercial someday". Pet peeve, you could say.
 
2012-03-11 09:08:10 PM

costermonger: Jewdown: I am a professional commercial pilot to be a (douchebag I know) and have A LOT of hours as a flight instructor.

Aren't instructors professional commercial pilots?


Technically, yes and no.

Yes, they changed the rules a while back that required CFI candidates to have a commercial certificate. It used to be that you only needed a commercial certificate in order to teach the commercial maneuvers.

However, the 'no' part of the answer is that the FAA considers flight instruction teaching and not flying. The CFI is paid to teach and not be a pilot. In fact, if the CFI doesn't need to be a required crewmember for that particular flight (like flight reviews and transition training, etc.), the CFI doesn't even need a medical certificate.

I think Jewdown is referring to being paid to fly.

--Carlos V.
 
2012-03-11 11:25:29 PM

Jewdown: It is a different certificate all together.


*everyone* IT'S A DIFFERENT CERTIFICATE!
 
2012-03-12 12:19:10 AM

unbelver: Technically, yes and no.Yes, they changed the rules a while back that required CFI candidates to have a commercial certificate. It used to be that you only needed a commercial certificate in order to teach the commercial maneuvers.


You guys have strange, strange rules. Or had, anyway. A CPL has always been the minimum required license to instruct in Canada, at least as far back as anybody I've ever come into contact with.

unbelver: However, the 'no' part of the answer is that the FAA considers flight instruction teaching and not flying. The CFI is paid to teach and not be a pilot. In fact, if the CFI doesn't need to be a required crewmember for that particular flight (like flight reviews and transition training, etc.), the CFI doesn't even need a medical certificate.I think Jewdown is referring to being paid to fly.


That's a bizarre distinction considering one must be the latter to conduct the former. In Canada things are different; my instructor rating (what you guys call a CFI - to us, that's Chief Flight Instructor) is tied to my license. If I lose my medical, I lose my ATPL (isn't valid without the medical certificate), I lose my FIR (Flight Instructor Rating.. isn't valid without my license - CPL or ATPL), etc. I could still do sim instruction in some circumstances and classroom work would be fine, but every flight I've ever done as an instructor has been as PIC, medical certificate required (flight reviews & transition training included). I don't require my instructor rating to teach IFR, but for that I need my license, instrument rating, etc. Same thing, different names.

I guess I take issue with the notion that flying around teaching people how to fly for a living doesn't qualify as such itself.
 
2012-03-12 12:29:59 AM
I doubt it would have entered the spin if the three idiots in the tail HADN'T BEEN ON-BOARD ILLEGALLY OVER THE LOADING LIMIT...

camera also showed the pilot didn't raise throttle when a jumper got on the perch bars, kinda dumb.
 
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