A friend from back home dropped me a line the other day, apparently the school officials thought it was cool to bring her 13 year old into the office, give him a piss test and search his locker and backpack because some kid said he was the leader of a school wide drug ring. Now, we're talking a kid on teh wrestling team, good student, etc. They didn't think twice...in for testing, searching high and low, all based off a claim from some random student.

Turns out...he was clean (duh) and the kid that WAS in charge of this 'drug ring' was friends with the kid that tried to blame him instead...

not a single apology was issue, nothing...

/admins are usually morons.
//zero tolerance policies just give them free reign to be stupid and not use common sense.

9beers: We don't have any facts and only one side of the story so I'm sure that nobody in this thread will place blame on the school district and police.

But wait, we have the school district's side:

The Minnewaska School District denies any wrongdoing.

"The district did not violate R.S.'s civil rights, and disputes the one-sided version of events set forth in the complaint written by the ACLU," according to a district statement.

"The district is confident that once all facts come to light, the district's conduct will be found to be reasonable and appropriate," the district said.

Got it? Given the opportunity to give its side of the story, the response was, "I didn't do it, nobody saw me, you can't prove anything." Wow, I'm convinced.

lethological_lassie: Wow, take a Xanax. I agree with the arguement, I just think that a teen is more upset about missing out on fun than her rights. Parents probably went to the ACLU. Most teens don't know that it exists. Your hunch, it is wrong.

Well, for what it's worth, I think you sound like an idiot, too. The other people aren't alone.

paulseta: It's amazing to think that the school didn't realise how fundamentally wrong it was to essentially interrogate a 12 year old girl- with the assistance of the police, no less.

Having said that, if they *did* know that what they were doing was wrong, they're in a whole world of trouble.

Judging by their belligerence, I'd say that their so far up their own collective ass that they honestly think that the end justified the means : that due to the heinous nature of the girls' crimes, that it made it alright to not worry about such trivialities as her 4th amendment rights, or the rule against children being questioned by the police without a parent/lawyer present.

They deserve to get done for this one - doesn't matter one jot what the kid did or didn't do : you cannot do what they did to her.

You just can't.

The argument will be that the school is acting in loco parentis, (new window) and that school staff may act in a parental role in that situation. I disagree, but that is the defensible position they will take.

Spanky McStupid: I missed the part about age limit on civil rights in the Constitution. And the employees at Minnewaska Area Middle School can all go DIAF.

It's in some of the more braindead SCOTUS decisions that have been made. Under 18 students have little to no rights.

I'm surprised that the school felt it necessary to act on a student calling the hall monitor a name while off school grounds.

Was it slanderous?

Was it disrupting class?

If not, then the kid has a right to express an opinion, no matter how immature or poorly thought out.

CtrlAltDelete: Anybody who thought 1957 was a good time to be alive probably doesn't know why a "plastic applicator" is a remarkable invention.

It's not that the list is entirely bullshiat, it's just that there's a lot of bullshiat in it (seriously, the "kids fight" example, are you smoking crack?) and nostalgia itself is fundamentally bullshiat. Times were not better, you were just more ignorant and had the advantage of being younger.

Speaking of this "zero tolerance" bullshiat....my sister teaches 8th grade, and she had a student hauled into the principal's office because someone saw her "popping pills" at lunch. When they found the pills she was supposedly "popping", they turned out to be Tic-Tacs. Now, this student had her backpack searched, her locker searched, her purse searched, and her pockets emptied. Another student last year got hauled in for the same thing, only instead of Tic-Tacs, it was Midol, because the girl was on her period and had bad cramps, and didn't want to go home early because of them. Then everyone in the school knew she was on the rag, she got teased mercilessly by other students, and this year, she's at another school in the same county.

TL;DR - fark zero tolerance, most of the time it's a crock of shiat.

Futz, she can have my backing.

Here's some perspective on the "good old days."

Link (new window)

You can accurately substitute the word government for school and private citizen for student.


Government forces private citizen to turn over e-mails and Facebook content (this story).

Government kills private citizens with poison (death penalty).

Government beats private citizens with boards in erogenous zones (corporal punishment allowed in schools in 20 some states).

If you're a conservative and want the government out of your life, remember this.

And here (new window)is the school's side of the story...sortof. They of course claim they did nothing wrong. They claim looking at the FB account was with parental consent and never looked at the girls email.

They're basicly saying the girl made a comment on FB which caused someone to think she was going to get all columbiney on someone at the school.

AssAsInAssassin: Here's some perspective on the "good old days."

Link (new window)

Adam, have you ever thought about all the things we accept by faith every day? Even in Helena? When we cross a bridge or sit down in a chair we don't first take it apart and examine it; we assume it will hold us, just as it has countless others. Nor do we wait until we fully understand electricity before we turn on the lights; we believe in it, even if we don't fully understand it.

In a far greater way, when we come to God we have every reason to believe not only that He exists, but that He cares about us. We see the evidence all around us in the world He created. As the Bible says, "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" (Romans 1:20).

But God has shown Himself to us in an even greater way: by becoming a man and living among us. That man was Jesus Christ. Do you want to know what God is like? Look at Jesus Christ, who was God in human flesh -- and He proved it by dying and then coming back to life. Through Him we not only know God exists, but that He loves us and wants us to know Him.

You can't put God in a test tube and "prove" He exists, the way you can a chemical; God is far greater than that. But you can know Him, by giving your life to Jesus Christ -- and that is the greatest discovery you'll ever make.

F42: There are plenty of facts.

You're right, a 12 year old says it happened so we're done here. Fire everybody.

Maus, it's been nice knowing you man. They're going to kill you in this thread now.

\ducking and running for cover

CSB

I am from a rural area in the south. Within the past 20 years it was commonplace for high school students to deer hunt near the school before classes started in the mornings. They would just put their rifle in their gun rack in the school parking lot and go to class.

One teacher that I had in high school (10 years ago) even related a story from 10 or so years prior of seeing a great buck out the window during class... he went and got his shotgun out of his truck and so did a few other students and they got their prized buck.

Hell, if that happened today they would call in damn Seal Team Six.

swingerofbirches: You can accurately substitute the word government for school and private citizen for student.


Government forces private citizen to turn over e-mails and Facebook content (this story).

Government kills private citizens with poison (death penalty).

Government beats private citizens with boards in erogenous zones (corporal punishment allowed in schools in 20 some states).

If you're a conservative and want the government out of your life, remember this.

I'm sure it was just an oversight, but you forgot to add the (liberal) administration that recently announced it'll continue to target overseas American citizens for drone assassination. But to be fair, that's one way to get government out of people's lives: by ending them.

Maus III: AssAsInAssassin: Here's some perspective on the "good old days."

Link (new window)

Adam, have you ever thought about all the things we accept by faith every day? Even in Helena? When we cross a bridge or sit down in a chair we don't first take it apart and examine it; we assume it will hold us, just as it has countless others. Nor do we wait until we fully understand electricity before we turn on the lights; we believe in it, even if we don't fully understand it.

In a far greater way, when we come to God we have every reason to believe not only that He exists, but that He cares about us. We see the evidence all around us in the world He created. As the Bible says, "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" (Romans 1:20).

But God has shown Himself to us in an even greater way: by becoming a man and living among us. That man was Jesus Christ. Do you want to know what God is like? Look at Jesus Christ, who was God in human flesh -- and He proved it by dying and then coming back to life. Through Him we not only know God exists, but that He loves us and wants us to know Him.

You can't put God in a test tube and "prove" He exists, the way you can a chemical; God is far greater than that. But you can know Him, by giving your life to Jesus Christ -- and that is the greatest discovery you'll ever make.

I like non sequiters and all but....

Kimpak: And here (new window)is the school's side of the story...sortof. They of course claim they did nothing wrong. They claim looking at the FB account was with parental consent and never looked at the girls email.

They're basicly saying the girl made a comment on FB which caused someone to think she was going to get all columbiney on someone at the school.

So I'm going to be that guy. Your link didn't work for me; could you pretty pleace c&p the good parts? Thank you kindly.

Bullying admins have always been around, zero tolerance just gives them the official stamp of approval. My seventh-grade teacher found my journal in my desk (don't know what the hell she was doing there) and read some of the choicer bits to the rest of the class -- this was in 1992. I was too embarrassed to tell my parents and while it seems crazy it never occurred to me that she didn't have the right to do that. I caught hell for the rest of the time I was at that school. If FB had existed at that time, I have no doubt she would have taken the same approach to postings there. People don't need policies to make them jerks.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Kids got no rights. The only right they have is to nice cup o' STFU.

Yes, the kid is violating Facebook's TOS by having an account when she's not 13.

However, there's nothing to say she was violating anything by having an email account. There is every likelihood her email account is entirely legit.

Depending on the laws of the state the school is in, by coercing her to provide access codes to data that isn't theirs, the individuals involved may have violated state computer crime laws to the tune of multiple felonies.

It depends on how the state defines obtaining unauthorized access, and how they've put together their laws about obtaining and using other people's passwords.

I remember Georgia's computer crime laws were initially pretty damned strict, and I don't think they've been changed. If you obtained someone's password unauthorized and used it to get unauthorized access to their account, you were in felony territory regardless of whether it was their bank account, their email, or their SocialMedia page.

Unauthorized was unauthorized and a password was a password and data was data was data---whether it was your money or your grocery list.

I suspect Georgia's not the only state that has the laws set up that way for basic computer crime felonies and just adds on more crimes and penalties for more serious stuff.

I doubt the DA will prosecute, or that IA will go after the cop, because some pigs are more equal than others (reference to Orwell, not the cop).

But if her parents start phrasing it to IA in terms of F is for Felony, they might be convinced to make an example of the guy.

As a teacher things like this infuriate me. In my school we understand that things that take place off campus are none of our business.

I have been very happy with the way things like this have been handled at our school, we ignored it.

King Something: lethological_lassie: Your hunch, it is wrong.

This much is good to know. Still, you could have worded your original argument a little better.

So he should word his comments better because you read too much into it?

You should ask more questions before jumping to conclusions.

King Something: lethological_lassie: I bet she's more upset about missing the school ski trip than having her 1st Amendment rights trod upon.

Account created: 2012-01-21 13:38:26

Yeah, call it a hunch, but somehow I think that you think that her being more upset about missing the school ski trip than having her 1st Amendment rights trod upon makes it perfectly okay to have her rights trampled upon.

And it's her 4th Amendment rights being trampled upon.

Weaver95: Kimpak: And here (new window)is the school's side of the story...sortof. They of course claim they did nothing wrong. They claim looking at the FB account was with parental consent and never looked at the girls email.

They're basicly saying the girl made a comment on FB which caused someone to think she was going to get all columbiney on someone at the school.

But this kid didn't have any of the other indicators of a school student rampage type personality and no evidence of her planning to go on a murder spree was found.

so either the administrator is an incompetent moron or he's just an authoritarian dick hole. Tough choice since either way his career is gonna take a hit...but if I were him I'd go with 'incompetent', since he's more likely to keep his job that way.

So you know this girl personally then? I don't disagree with admins FB stalking students. The big thing I disagree about according to the allegations is the questioning by police without a parent/lawyer etc. present. I don't care what the school says they can't justify that.

Maus III: AssAsInAssassin: Here's some perspective on the "good old days."

Link (new window)

Adam, have you ever thought about all the things we accept by faith every day? Even in Helena? When we cross a bridge or sit down in a chair we don't first take it apart and examine it; we assume it will hold us, just as it has countless others. Nor do we wait until we fully understand electricity before we turn on the lights; we believe in it, even if we don't fully understand it.

In a far greater way, when we come to God we have every reason to believe not only that He exists, but that He cares about us. We see the evidence all around us in the world He created. As the Bible says, "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" (Romans 1:20).

But God has shown Himself to us in an even greater way: by becoming a man and living among us. That man was Jesus Christ. Do you want to know what God is like? Look at Jesus Christ, who was God in human flesh -- and He proved it by dying and then coming back to life. Through Him we not only know God exists, but that He loves us and wants us to know Him.

You can't put God in a test tube and "prove" He exists, the way you can a chemical; God is far greater than that. But you can know Him, by giving your life to Jesus Christ -- and that is the greatest discovery you'll ever make.

Hehe.

You're funny. Like my cat sitting in his litter tray after he's done the business and it's like he's just resting there, content, proud of his achievements.

That's you.

Coco LaFemme: Speaking of this "zero tolerance" bullshiat....my sister teaches 8th grade, and she had a student hauled into the principal's office because someone saw her "popping pills" at lunch. When they found the pills she was supposedly "popping", they turned out to be Tic-Tacs. Now, this student had her backpack searched, her locker searched, her purse searched, and her pockets emptied. Another student last year got hauled in for the same thing, only instead of Tic-Tacs, it was Midol, because the girl was on her period and had bad cramps, and didn't want to go home early because of them. Then everyone in the school knew she was on the rag, she got teased mercilessly by other students, and this year, she's at another school in the same county.

TL;DR - fark zero tolerance, most of the time it's a crock of shiat.

yeah, I know..."they're kids"...but sheesh..who teases a girl for being on the rag. at any given time, 25% of the girls in that school are probably raggin.

Weaver95: I'm curious - do you believe that 'zero tolerance' policies actually work to control student behavior and/or prevent incidents of school violence?

What the hell are you talking about? This has nothing to do with zero tolerance.

Weaver95

so either the administrator is an incompetent moron or he's just an authoritarian dick hole.


That's not really an either/or scenario.

Weaver95: The Minnewaska School District denies any wrongdoing.

"The district did not violate R.S.'s civil rights, and disputes the one-sided version of events set forth in the complaint written by the ACLU," according to a district statement.



wait - students have rights?! when did this happen?

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969)

Supreme Court ruled in 1969 that public school students do not lose their basic civil rights just by attending school. Schools can regulate things to maintain order needed for education, but they need to be able to demonstrate that what they are regulating would disrupt education if they didn't.

In that case, it was three students wanting to protest the Vietnam War by wearing black armbands for a few weeks. That's it. Just black armbands. No marching or chanting or sit-ins. The school responded by suspending all the students. ACLU got involved.

It was ruled that the students were engaging in Constitutionally protected free speech of a political nature, and since the school couldn't provide any proof that the armbands disrupted class (beyond classmates asking why they were wearing armbands), it was nowhere near enough reason to prohibit their free speech.

So, it's established legally that students have their civil rights unless school administrators can prove in court (not just say-so) that they have no choice but to curtail that right to maintain order and discipline in the school.

Weaver95: seems like a simple question - do you believe zero tolerance policies are an effective way to control school students?

Look, it's a simple question -- would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs?

/My question is just as pertinent to TFA as yours.

Cat With Two Heads: snocone: Scenario 6:
Pedro fails high school English.
1957 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.
2012 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against the state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English is then banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.

I was all about the list until this one. The hell? I suggest researching how tolerant America of the 1950s was toward Spanish-speakers. And are you under the impression that English classes teach students English as a second language?

So you assume anyone with an Hispanic name didn't grow up speaking English?

Weaver95: seems like a simple question - do you believe zero tolerance policies are an effective way to control school students?

Well ask your simple question in a relevant thread.

Oh boy... Ok, first up.
snocone: Scenario 1:
Jack goes quail hunting before school and then pulls into the school parking lot with his shotgun in his truck's gun rack..
1957 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
2012 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Completely legit. Guns do not belong on school property. Why is Jack going quail hunting before school? And why the hell is an underage child using firearms without an adult present?

Scenario 2:
Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1957 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2012 - Police called and SWAT team arrives -- they arrest both Johnny and Mark. They are both charged with assault and both expelled even though Johnny started it .

SWAT? Really? I've gotten in fights in school. You get suspended. No one would get arrested unless one of them decided to press charges.

Scenario 3:
Jeffrey will not be still in class, he disrupts other students.
1957 - Jeffrey sent to the Principal's office and given a good paddling by the Principal. He then returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2012 - Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. He becomes a zombie. He is then tested for ADD. The family gets extra money (SSI) from the government because Jeffrey has a disability.

First of all, you don't get SSI for ADHD. Please provide an example to prove me wrong. Second, you don't get prescribed Ritalin until AFTER you get tested for ADD, and then only if you test positive. Third, you seriously believe paddling works? I would have loved to get paddled as punishment instead of getting credits taken away or a suspension on my record.

Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1957 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman..
2012 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse , Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has an affair with the psychologist.

Again, you seriously believe getting physical punishment is effective? Physical punishment makes the child MORE likely to have violent tendencies. And I'm sure every foster child in the nation is glad that you think they're all criminals. Also, they wouldn't have gone into foster care unless there was no other family member to take them in. Even so, Child Services doesn't work that way. They give you chances before they take your kids away.

Scenario 5:
Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.
1957 - Mark shares his aspirin with the Principal out on the smoking dock ..
2012 - The police are called and Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. His car is then searched for drugs and weapons.
Smoking dock? Also, if he has a headache, why didn't he just take an aspirin while he was at home and leave it there? They don't allow any drugs on school campus because the bottles could be holding hard drugs. No, Mark wouldn't be arrested or expelled. They'd confiscate them, call the parents to get the story straight, and possibly suspend him for a few days. You never heard of TLO?

King Something:
In any case, this looks to me like the police and school administrators were trying to teach this kid a "lesson" or two - don't speak ill of authority figures, or you will be punished severely; and do what police tell you, when they tell you, without complaint, or you will be punished severely.

Hopefully the ACLU will teach the cops and school admin a lesson as well - don't trample upon students' rights or you will be puni$hed $everely.

This.

Kimpak: So you know this girl personally then? I don't disagree with admins FB stalking students. The big thing I disagree about according to the allegations is the questioning by police without a parent/lawyer etc. present. I don't care what the school says they can't justify that.

Yeah. What I noticed about the school's letter was that without saying anything with any actual content---so that they wouldn't put any fact out there that would potentially be disprovable and actionable---they tried to put as much emotionally loaded fear-mongering into their letter as possible.

Unsafe! Self-harm! Cyber-bullying policy! Disruption! Felt unsafe! Participated in a conversation!

But they went out of their way not to say anything where they might actually be called upon to back their story up and prove the kid did anything.

Maximum innuendo with maximum deniability.

The weasel factor in that letter is off the charts.

The girl's story, on the other hand, is full of specifics.

Why would the parents need the school to bully the kid's FB password out of her? If the parents were so happy about the school searching the kid's FB, why are they going along with the ACLU lawsuit--which they kinda have to be, since the kid is a minor?

The school's story smells like the week-dead weasel the dog rolled in.