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(Omaha World Herald)   Rev. Jane Florence of First United Methodist Church in Omaha: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"   ( omaha.com) divider line
    More: Hero, Omaha, Alexander Payne, United Methodist Church, local churches, discrimination law, Pontius Pilate, workplace discrimination, cross-examination  
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7885 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2012 at 11:50 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-07 02:25:47 PM  
Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour.
 
2012-03-07 02:27:15 PM  

th0th: namegoeshere: My favorite minister growing up, who used to ride to church on his Harley, once took the Bible off of the pulpit and threw it on the floor. There were gasps, and then silence. He said, "What? It's just a book."

He went on to say, (paraphrasing to the best of my memory - this was 30 years ago) "The Bible is not the Perfect Word of God. [more gasps, more silence, uncomfortable squirming now] The Bible is man's imperfect interpretation of the Perfect Word of God. The sky did not open up one day and out fell the King James Revised. Man wrote it. Based on the Word of God, yeah. To the best of our ability and understanding, sure. But we're not perfect. We are all biased by the spirit of the times in which we live. We mortals see and repeat everything through the filter of our own knowledge, experience, and understanding. Because we are mortal, this knowledge, experience, and understanding is imperfect, as are we. Therefore, the Bible and everything in it must be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. It is a guide. It's a starting point. It is the inspiration for discussion. It is largely metaphorical. It is not a How-To manual."

Good guy, that one. Congregationalist.

I have a feeling that speech went over like a fart in a car. Some people are not open-minded enough to see the Bible like that. Others would shoot you dead for burning one.

I agree with that pastor, but I wonder if he got run out of town on a rail after that one. I hope he didn't, and the congregation benefited as a result.


He didn't, surprisingly. This was in Old New England, which is an odd place. We're so conservative in some ways but so freakishly liberal in others. It stirred things up, sure. But the old foghies needed stirrin'.

He left the church eventually, which was a bummer because I wanted him to marry me.
 
2012-03-07 02:27:52 PM  

Tatarize: Peppermint Rose: Tatarize: ...

Do you happen to know who added the forgeries? If Paul is blameless in this I want to know who it is my most disliked historical person. I haven't been a Christian in a good (OMG I'm old) 20 years and was never very devout anyway. When I started studying to counter the claims of the ninny-heads about what the Bible says I didn't pay attention to Paul cause according to his own accounts of his conversion and belief I never thought he had any holy authority.

No. How could I? With the exception of a couple bits of Paul's we don't know who wrote anything. And even then some of the bits of Paul might be interpolation too, it wouldn't be impossible to slip something Paul might have agreed with into one of Paul's genuine letters, it's only due to the hamfisted nature of some of them that we know some parts are forgeries.

Several of them are entire letters that start out saying "This is Paul writing this, I may look strange but that's because I'm dictating the letter, this letter is nothing like all those Pauline forgeries going around, this is the real McCoy!" -- And then proceeds to lay out all the various rivalries of the 2nd century. Yeah, we beat those Jews, women shouldn't have any place in the church, in fact here's how this the future church should be laid out. Also screw Marcion, that guy is entirely wrong about how things should be setup.

We don't rightly have any clue who wrote this stuff, some unknown political/religious rivals in the 2nd century, using Paul's voice to influence the church. But, when you chop off everything that is imposter-Paul you actually lose everything that's overtly sexist.


I know there is historical speculation about who added forgeries to other historical documents so I wasn't sure. My perception of Paul has always been that he took Christ's message that was one of love and inclusion and made it all legalistic (this may or may not be accurate, my interest in Christianity is rather sporadic and purely curiousity cause I don't really much care one way or the other). The mysogyny was just another reason to not like him.
 
2012-03-07 02:29:15 PM  

letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour.


Man 1: My mother made me a homosexual.
Man 2: If I give her the wool, will she make me one too?
 
2012-03-07 02:29:52 PM  

LovingTeacher: Flash_NYC: So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?

absolutely, and if christianity would just dry up and blow away like it should have hundreds of years ago we wouldn't even be having these conversations


Eh, maybe not these specific conversations, but most likely ones similarly stupid. All of this crap basically boils down to "my tribe is better than your tribe". Tribes will always exist whether they're religious, racial, occupational, or myriad others.
 
2012-03-07 02:31:53 PM  

letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour.


So is trolling.
 
2012-03-07 02:35:34 PM  

letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour.


Horrible attempt. I'm embarrassed for you.

/of course, by the time I post this, it'll have like 20 bites.
 
2012-03-07 02:36:39 PM  

BurnShrike: Kurmudgeon: BurnShrike: What exactly makes this lady a hero? There are thousands and thousands of people who are fighting for gay and transgender equality. One religious leader supports it and that makes her a hero?

After all the bashing the religious have gotten on this issue, one would think you would be happy that one sees the point. Christ never bashed gays either.

I am glad to see her supporting the ethical side, but that doesn't mean she's a hero by any means. A hero is someone who risks their life for another, or who sacrifices something dear to them to help another. A religious leader who shows a lack of bigotry towards gays is not a hero. That should be the "normal".

That people think she's a hero just shows how despicable religious leaders are in general.


Actually, she could very well end up facing a lot of trouble over this. Her own clergy turning on her; her parishoners hating her...you name it, there's someone who's going to do it. She stood up with teh gay. That deserves the Hero tag because it's someone who isn't involved sticking their necks out in a huge way for those who are--that action is heroic.

What she's doing is a lot bigger than just not being a douche.
 
2012-03-07 02:42:25 PM  

Egoy3k: So if a mass murderer was crying for forgiveness as he slaughtered his victims he would go to heaven and because I enjoy getting drunk and don't believe in god I would go to hell?


If he was killing people while crying for forgiveness you can probably assume he wasn't really "turning from his sins." Only you and God know what you truly believe. Just because somebody says something doesn't make it true. This is Fark remember.
 
2012-03-07 02:45:12 PM  

Lordserb: Just because somebody says something doesn't make it true.


I trust you'll remember that next time you're in church and your pastor tries to sell the story about the sins you're supposedly responsible for and only he has the cure for.

Sounds like a great snake oil con, doesn't it?
 
2012-03-07 02:45:32 PM  

letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour.


I learned it by watching you.
 
2012-03-07 02:50:04 PM  

vpb: Teaching isn't the problem, it's trying to force people to follow your beliefs. When you try to use religion as an excuse to attack other people then it is a problem. If you don't like gay marriage don't marry a gay. Simple.

If some group of Jews and/or Muslims tries to outlaw bacon then I will support it just to make a point.


Forcing someone to follow your beliefs is one thing. Ultimately nobody can force anyone to accept that God is real.

In society, however, many Christians do not want to have the nation accept and promote sinful behaviors, homosexuality included. The belief is that the further a nation falls into sin, the less God will bless the nation.

Everyone has a vote, and that is what decides much of the laws we have. If Christians want to get together and vote that the government shouldn't be involved in the religious institution of marriage, then so be it. If everyone else votes the other way than thats the way it goes.
 
2012-03-07 02:54:09 PM  

BurnShrike: I trust you'll remember that next time you're in church and your pastor tries to sell the story about the sins you're supposedly responsible for and only he has the cure for.

Sounds like a great snake oil con, doesn't it?


And if anyone hearing that message doesn't agree with it they are free to walk out. We're not forcing anyone to adhere to our beliefs, just spreading the news that you don't have to die in your sins, God has provided a way out.
 
2012-03-07 02:54:22 PM  
Doesn't stop every religion from doing it though!
 
2012-03-07 02:56:19 PM  

Lordserb: vpb: Teaching isn't the problem, it's trying to force people to follow your beliefs. When you try to use religion as an excuse to attack other people then it is a problem. If you don't like gay marriage don't marry a gay. Simple.

If some group of Jews and/or Muslims tries to outlaw bacon then I will support it just to make a point.

Forcing someone to follow your beliefs is one thing. Ultimately nobody can force anyone to accept that God is real.

In society, however, many Christians do not want to have the nation accept and promote sinful behaviors, homosexuality included. The belief is that the further a nation falls into sin, the less God will bless the nation.

Everyone has a vote, and that is what decides much of the laws we have. If Christians want to get together and vote that the government shouldn't be involved in the religious institution of marriage, then so be it. If everyone else votes the other way than thats the way it goes.


The first amendment would like a word with you
 
2012-03-07 02:58:11 PM  

Lordserb: BurnShrike: I trust you'll remember that next time you're in church and your pastor tries to sell the story about the sins you're supposedly responsible for and only he has the cure for.

Sounds like a great snake oil con, doesn't it?

And if anyone hearing that message doesn't agree with it they are free to walk out. We're not forcing anyone to adhere to our beliefs, just spreading the news that you don't have to die in your sins, God has provided a way out.


You missed the point. It's interesting to see how you're willing to question what everyone else says, but fully believe the guy trying to sell you his religion about a magic man in the sky who will only love you if you do what he says.

Sorry, I mean he loves everyone, but he will torture you with unending pain and suffering if you don't kiss his ass the right way.

Cognitive dissonance FTW.
 
2012-03-07 03:01:11 PM  

Lordserb: Egoy3k: Do you actually do this? You might want to consider recording it next time you do it. I and many others would pay good money to watch an extremely effeminate guy beat the crap out of you.

Go up to random people and ask them if they're gay? No. If, however, someone is talking to me and they mention that they're gay, then I may bring up the topic of God and continue from there.


*Strikes lordserb off party invite list*
 
2012-03-07 03:03:09 PM  

All_Farked_Up: The first amendment would like a word with you


Yes yes, obviously within the bounds of the constitution. I was making a generalized statement.
 
2012-03-07 03:05:14 PM  

BurnShrike: You missed the point. It's interesting to see how you're willing to question what everyone else says, but fully believe the guy trying to sell you his religion about a magic man in the sky who will only love you if you do what he says.

Sorry, I mean he loves everyone, but he will torture you with unending pain and suffering if you don't kiss his ass the right way.

Cognitive dissonance FTW.


Right, I 100% believe that God is real. I hear what you and others are saying (and have talked with many athiests and agnostics). I have heard what they have had to say as well. I don't believe them, and many of them didn't or still don't believe what I have to say.
 
2012-03-07 03:07:17 PM  
Not a hero.
 
2012-03-07 03:09:41 PM  
Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.
 
2012-03-07 03:10:55 PM  

letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.


[Citation Needed]
 
2012-03-07 03:12:05 PM  

Lordserb: vpb: Teaching isn't the problem, it's trying to force people to follow your beliefs. When you try to use religion as an excuse to attack other people then it is a problem. If you don't like gay marriage don't marry a gay. Simple.

If some group of Jews and/or Muslims tries to outlaw bacon then I will support it just to make a point.

Forcing someone to follow your beliefs is one thing. Ultimately nobody can force anyone to accept that God is real.

In society, however, many Christians do not want to have the nation accept and promote sinful behaviors, homosexuality included. The belief is that the further a nation falls into sin, the less God will bless the nation.

Everyone has a vote, and that is what decides much of the laws we have. If Christians want to get together and vote that the government shouldn't be involved in the religious institution of marriage, then so be it. If everyone else votes the other way than thats the way it goes.


This is why christians are despised by many people, your definition of sinful is in no way related to me and I don't need you encoding your ideas of sinful into law. This is why we had to go to the courts to get miscegenation laws over turned, because you christians were just "protecting traditional marriage". Hopefully we won't need to go begging to you people to get laws against gay marriage repealled and the courts will do it for us
 
2012-03-07 03:21:31 PM  
letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.

All_Farked_Up: [Citation Needed]


Bushmen don't have any more interest in female breasts than they do in elbows. The Western fascination with breasts is not instinctive. Certain deviants find stinky feet to be objects of desire. There is very little 'hard-wiring' involved in sexual attraction. You grope and fondle and kiss with whatever you've been taught to be appropriate.
 
2012-03-07 03:24:06 PM  

letrole: letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.

All_Farked_Up: [Citation Needed]


Bushmen don't have any more interest in female breasts than they do in elbows. The Western fascination with breasts is not instinctive. Certain deviants find stinky feet to be objects of desire. There is very little 'hard-wiring' involved in sexual attraction. You grope and fondle and kiss with whatever you've been taught to be appropriate.


CSB, still not proof
 
2012-03-07 03:24:07 PM  

Lordserb: BurnShrike: You missed the point. It's interesting to see how you're willing to question what everyone else says, but fully believe the guy trying to sell you his religion about a magic man in the sky who will only love you if you do what he says.

Sorry, I mean he loves everyone, but he will torture you with unending pain and suffering if you don't kiss his ass the right way.

Cognitive dissonance FTW.

Right, I 100% believe that God is real. I hear what you and others are saying (and have talked with many athiests and agnostics). I have heard what they have had to say as well. I don't believe them, and many of them didn't or still don't believe what I have to say.


Well you're certainly welcome to your imaginary friends. And based on your statements of harassing "sinners", you won't be invited to any parties I'm involved with.
 
2012-03-07 03:28:45 PM  

pag1107: I once heard a Baptist preacher say the same thing. Congregation turned on him after that and he "retired" a year later.


I heard about this other guy who said the same thing, long time ago. Fella got nailed to a cross over it, too.
 
2012-03-07 03:31:27 PM  
In reference to Jesus...

"Either He is not who you say He is, or you are not who you say you are."

Glad this lady learned something about Jesus, and realized that she wants to try to be who she says she is.
 
2012-03-07 03:33:22 PM  

brigid_fitch: what_now: The Methodists are pretty cool. They've got the rainbow flags, female ministers etc etc.

That being said, they are considered heathens by the Evangelicals.

They aren't "born again" so they don't "count" to these people.

I know by Evangelical, you mean Fundies. There are progressive Evangelicals--the word is just Greek for "Good News". We Evangelical Lutherans (ELCA) are pretty progressive and we like the Methodists. The Missouri Synod Lutheran faction, on the other hand, are the crazy nutjobs.


Sup communion brudda.

/Episcopalian
//Loves me some ELCA
 
2012-03-07 03:36:42 PM  
Also, at the risk of tripplepost, I'm actually impressed with the lack of religion haters in this thread.
I'm glad to see a lot of Farkers who generally pooh-pooh religion on the whole looking at this and saying "well, good."
"Well, good" is the correct response. So thank you :)
 
2012-03-07 03:37:24 PM  
Good on her for speaking out for justice in a Jesus way in what seems to have been hostile territory.

/UMC Minister
 
2012-03-07 03:37:53 PM  

Flash_NYC: So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?


Seeing as how simply supporting a cause =/= trying to legislate it like what those coming out against gay marriage are doing, no, I don't see a problem there.
 
2012-03-07 03:44:17 PM  

LovingTeacher:
This is why christians are despised by many people, your definition of sinful is in no way related to me and I don't need you encoding your ideas of sinful into law. This is why we had to go to the courts to get miscegenation laws over turned, because you christians were just "protecting traditional marriage". Hopefully we won't need to go begging to you people to get laws against gay marriage repealled and the courts will do it for us


Here's something that gets lost on a lot of people. People like Lordserb see themselves as helping people reach their eternal reward, which is a huge deal to them. They say that if you refrain from sinful acts here (or, if you don't refrain, you must sincerely repent) you will receive the greatest reward in going to heaven. If not, eternal damnation. They see themselves as saviors to others and feel an obligation to be just that. While I completely disagree with what he says and disagree with his way of thinking, his heart is in the right place (though, in my opinion, greatly misguided). Think about it - if you see a bunch of people doing something like jumping off a bridge, enjoying the rush, but not realizing that they'll surely be killed, wouldn't you try to stop them? This is where they're coming from. For each person individually, homosexual behavior is like jumping off that bridge or at least taking steps to the bridge with the intent to jump. For the country, allowing gay marriage is like that too. That is their perspective.
 
2012-03-07 03:44:51 PM  
letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.

All_Farked_Up: [Citation Needed]

letrole: Bushmen don't have any more interest in female breasts than they do in elbows. The Western fascination with breasts is not instinctive. Certain deviants find stinky feet to be objects of desire. There is very little 'hard-wiring' involved in sexual attraction. You grope and fondle and kiss with whatever you've been taught to be appropriate.

All_Farked_Up: CSB, still not proof


In Imperial China, foot-binding was used to produce the 'lotus foot'. In bowdlerised accounts, Westerners are told that it caused a woman to be housebound and dependent upon her husband. Actually, the 'lotus foot' was used for both manual (pedal?) masturbation of the man, and also as a plug to stimulate a man's anus when the woman wrapped her legs around him during sexual intercourse.
 
2012-03-07 03:46:19 PM  

namegoeshere: I grew up Congregationalist. Like Methodists, Congregationalists tend to be laid back, all inclusive, non judgemental, warm fuzzy types. Although I no longer participate actively in churchy stuff, it farking kills me that so many bigoted, homophobic, woman hating, judgemental assholes have hijacked "Christianity" for their own purposes. THAT IS NOT WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS. I never heard hate preached in my church. Not once. I never heard that being gay was sinful. I never heard that a woman was dirty for using birth control.

Kudos to this woman for standing up and saying NO to this bullshiat. More need to do so.



well to be fair homosexuality is a sin... now the bible doesn;t say you should go beat gays up or mistreats them but it is considered sinful.

Lev. 20:13

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

However the Book of Leviticus as with most in the Old Testament was part of the mosaic law that was written to the Jews, not the Christians. Therefore, the condemnation of homosexuality in Leviticus does not apply to present day Christians. It is considered a sinful act no doubt but not one where you should condemn people to death or to mock.
 
2012-03-07 03:46:40 PM  
So she wants to ordain Muslim clerics as Christian ministers? Or are they to be excluded and therefore marginalized? See, the whole endpoint of Christian theology is that God separates people into two groups. To one he gives the prize, to the other he gives the boot. It is at its heart, divisive, exclusionary, and condemnatory. To say that Scripture is otherwise is misleading to the point of flagrant lying. If, however, she is claiming that it is wrong for us (collectively speaking, as human beings) to exclude, marginalize, and condemn eachother then I can see that some might find that an appealing statement to a lot of people. Prison dwellers in particular would find that to be of particular interest. Or did she mean to imply the weaselly subjective clause "without reasonable justification" into the mix?

You can't have it both ways, lady. Wise up and pick a side.

Fact is, we can't all get along. We do wantonly discriminate without justification every day. It is part of being human. It is who we are, even though we don't particularly care for that aspect of our natures. We do marginalize. We do condemn. We do exclude. That is precisely how it is that we manage to keep our lives as civilized and peaceful as they are, as a matter of fact.
 
2012-03-07 03:47:35 PM  

letrole: letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.

All_Farked_Up: [Citation Needed]

letrole: Bushmen don't have any more interest in female breasts than they do in elbows. The Western fascination with breasts is not instinctive. Certain deviants find stinky feet to be objects of desire. There is very little 'hard-wiring' involved in sexual attraction. You grope and fondle and kiss with whatever you've been taught to be appropriate.

All_Farked_Up: CSB, still not proof


In Imperial China, foot-binding was used to produce the 'lotus foot'. In bowdlerised accounts, Westerners are told that it caused a woman to be housebound and dependent upon her husband. Actually, the 'lotus foot' was used for both manual (pedal?) masturbation of the man, and also as a plug to stimulate a man's anus when the woman wrapped her legs around him during sexual intercourse.


Another CSB but where's the science?
 
2012-03-07 03:52:38 PM  
gee, all's gay omaha has to do is move across the river where such a law has been on the books for years and they can get married.

yay, iowa!
 
2012-03-07 03:54:37 PM  
letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.

All_Farked_Up: [Citation Needed]

letrole: Bushmen don't have any more interest in female breasts than they do in elbows. The Western fascination with breasts is not instinctive. Certain deviants find stinky feet to be objects of desire. There is very little 'hard-wiring' involved in sexual attraction. You grope and fondle and kiss with whatever you've been taught to be appropriate.

All_Farked_Up: CSB, still not proof

letrole: In Imperial China, foot-binding was used to produce the 'lotus foot'. In bowdlerised accounts, Westerners are told that it caused a woman to be housebound and dependent upon her husband. Actually, the 'lotus foot' was used for both manual (pedal?) masturbation of the man, and also as a plug to stimulate a man's anus when the woman wrapped her legs around him during sexual intercourse.

All_Farked_Up: Another CSB but where's the science?


Can anyone produce a Punnett square that shows a genetic basis for homosexuality? The futile search for a 'gay gene' is futile for that very reason. The particular gene for haemophilia never needed to be identified to show the genetic nature of the disease.

A heritable trait can be predicted. The accuracy of the prediction is dependant upon the frequency that the trait occurs. Advocates of Homosexuality claim 10%, though in reality it would be closer to 2%. Either way, that lower figure is more than enough to make a prediction.
 
2012-03-07 03:58:57 PM  

All_Farked_Up: letrole: letrole: Homosexuality is a Learned Behaviour. The instinct for sex involves thrusting and groping and kissing and so forth. If you get horny at the sight of a naked man, or if you get horny at the sight of a naked woman, it is only because you have been taught to make that association.

All_Farked_Up: [Citation Needed]

letrole: Bushmen don't have any more interest in female breasts than they do in elbows. The Western fascination with breasts is not instinctive. Certain deviants find stinky feet to be objects of desire. There is very little 'hard-wiring' involved in sexual attraction. You grope and fondle and kiss with whatever you've been taught to be appropriate.

All_Farked_Up: CSB, still not proof


In Imperial China, foot-binding was used to produce the 'lotus foot'. In bowdlerised accounts, Westerners are told that it caused a woman to be housebound and dependent upon her husband. Actually, the 'lotus foot' was used for both manual (pedal?) masturbation of the man, and also as a plug to stimulate a man's anus when the woman wrapped her legs around him during sexual intercourse.

Another CSB but where's the science?


Dude...read the guy's fark handle.

It is letrole
LeTrole
Le Troll
THE TROLL.
 
2012-03-07 04:01:49 PM  

Balchinian: Fact is, we can't all get along. We do wantonly discriminate without justification every day. It is part of being human. It is who we are, even though we don't particularly care for that aspect of our natures. We do marginalize. We do condemn. We do exclude. That is precisely how it is that we manage to keep our lives as civilized and peaceful as they are, as a matter of fact.


I'm not really sure how people could unapologetically celebrate those impulses or treat them with apathy, given how swiftly and easily they are twisted into things that are not civilized or peaceful in the least.

Loving one's neighbor, showing kindness and understanding, etc. does not somehow mean utter anarchic absence of response to heinous acts.
 
2012-03-07 04:02:43 PM  
InfamousBLT: Dude...read the guy's fark handle.
It is letrole
LeTrole
Le Troll
THE TROLL.



My surname is Le Trôle
 
2012-03-07 04:13:48 PM  

letrole: InfamousBLT: Dude...read the guy's fark handle.
It is letrole
LeTrole
Le Troll
THE TROLL.


My surname is Le Trôle


first name jesuis?
 
2012-03-07 04:13:56 PM  

Peppermint Rose:

I know there is historical speculation about who added forgeries to other historical documents so I wasn't sure. My perception of Paul has always been that he took Christ's message that was one of love and inclusion and made it all legalistic (this may or may not be accurate, my interest in Christianity is rather sporadic and purely curiousity cause I don't really much care one way or the other). The mysogyny was just another reason to not like him.


I suppose you're right. There is speculation that Eusebius added the Testimonium Flavian, and other historical speculations. I suppose there could be some idea. There just aren't in this case. Making fake epigraphs is ruined if we know who you are trying to do it.

The problem with that perception of Paul is that there's very little contact at all between Pauline and whatever any of the Jewish Christianities had at the time. From reading Paul one would draw a conclusion that Jesus was perhaps some kind of light in the sky. The gospels didn't exist at the time and Paul doesn't seem to know anything about the message of the gospels or the life of Jesus.

Paul's message was legalistic and inclusive, to the point of getting rid of all those things which would prevent converts and bringing around a rather robust theology. Jesus however seemed to be a hero story of betrayal, death, and victory. There really wasn't/isn't that much love or inclusion. One of the strangest things about Jesus is that he is no where near as Jesusy as people tend to attribute to him. You can find love and inclusion inside a cult, but not for those people outside the cult. Those you can attack with homemade whips and attack, those family members who don't join should be ignored and shunned. If anything the most overwhelming message is unabashed care for the poor.
 
2012-03-07 05:10:09 PM  
Excluding, condemning, and marginalizing without limit and without question is basically the whole reason why Satan, if he ever existed, would be an Evangelical Christian preacher. That way he could get people to do whatever he wanted--even if it's completely contradictory to the will of God/Jesus/whatever deity.

100% pure Christians, on other hand, would be kind, loving, accepting atheists who'd never expect any reward for their selfless actions.

/In fact, deifying Jesus in the first place could ostensibly be attributed to "evil" in the first place: it detracts from the man's profound sacrifices, because if he knew he was the son of a god, and he knew he was going to heaven, it makes it a cheap, ball-less stunt to "die" in the name of love, kindness, and peace when you're guaranteed a lavish afterlife.
 
2012-03-07 05:16:29 PM  
How come this reverend is allowed to be a pro gay-marriage, from a religious standpoint, in the secular arena, yet if she was against gay-marriage, most of you would be burning with rage that a religious person, who's organization is tax-exempt, is allowed to have an opinion expressed in the public square.

They can have all the opinions they want and express them where they like - in any "arena". It's when they want their religious opinions enacted into law that problems happen.
Anyone is allowed to have an unpopular opinion, and people are allowed to criticize them for it. And that works both ways.
 
2012-03-07 05:24:20 PM  

ajt167: LovingTeacher:
This is why christians are despised by many people, your definition of sinful is in no way related to me and I don't need you encoding your ideas of sinful into law. This is why we had to go to the courts to get miscegenation laws over turned, because you christians were just "protecting traditional marriage". Hopefully we won't need to go begging to you people to get laws against gay marriage repealled and the courts will do it for us

Here's something that gets lost on a lot of people. People like Lordserb see themselves as helping people reach their eternal reward, which is a huge deal to them. They say that if you refrain from sinful acts here (or, if you don't refrain, you must sincerely repent) you will receive the greatest reward in going to heaven. If not, eternal damnation. They see themselves as saviors to others and feel an obligation to be just that. While I completely disagree with what he says and disagree with his way of thinking, his heart is in the right place (though, in my opinion, greatly misguided). Think about it - if you see a bunch of people doing something like jumping off a bridge, enjoying the rush, but not realizing that they'll surely be killed, wouldn't you try to stop them? This is where they're coming from. For each person individually, homosexual behavior is like jumping off that bridge or at least taking steps to the bridge with the intent to jump. For the country, allowing gay marriage is like that too. That is their perspective.


This is not lost on me, however, the comparison is not the right comparison. Maybe more like you've heard from a guy who's heard from a guy whose heard from a guy that there is going to be a shooting at the party Bob is going to tonight. Now you don't know if it's true and the fact that you got the message through a 2000 year game of telephone calls into question the translation of the message and leaves in doubt the intentions of the originator of the message. Should you tell Bob about the possible shooting, sure why not. Should you tackle him and physically stop him from going to the party given the doubts about the information, no.

This is the way some christians think, They are not satisfied to pass on the warning and let it go, they want to force us to not go to the party.
 
2012-03-07 05:37:15 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-03-07 05:37:40 PM  

LovingTeacher: ajt167: LovingTeacher:
This is why christians are despised by many people, your definition of sinful is in no way related to me and I don't need you encoding your ideas of sinful into law. This is why we had to go to the courts to get miscegenation laws over turned, because you christians were just "protecting traditional marriage". Hopefully we won't need to go begging to you people to get laws against gay marriage repealled and the courts will do it for us

Here's something that gets lost on a lot of people. People like Lordserb see themselves as helping people reach their eternal reward, which is a huge deal to them. They say that if you refrain from sinful acts here (or, if you don't refrain, you must sincerely repent) you will receive the greatest reward in going to heaven. If not, eternal damnation. They see themselves as saviors to others and feel an obligation to be just that. While I completely disagree with what he says and disagree with his way of thinking, his heart is in the right place (though, in my opinion, greatly misguided). Think about it - if you see a bunch of people doing something like jumping off a bridge, enjoying the rush, but not realizing that they'll surely be killed, wouldn't you try to stop them? This is where they're coming from. For each person individually, homosexual behavior is like jumping off that bridge or at least taking steps to the bridge with the intent to jump. For the country, allowing gay marriage is like that too. That is their perspective.

This is not lost on me, however, the comparison is not the right comparison. Maybe more like you've heard from a guy who's heard from a guy whose heard from a guy that there is going to be a shooting at the party Bob is going to tonight. Now you don't know if it's true and the fact that you got the message through a 2000 year game of telephone calls into question the translation of the message and leaves in doubt the intentions of the originator of the message. Should you tell Bob a ...


Your example is closer to the reality of the situation, my example is closer to what they believe to be true. Going with your example, they truly believe that Bob's life is in danger and would surely tackle him. Again though, I'm a xtian and I don't feel this way. Live and let live, the world needs more love and stopping two people who love each other from being together is just plain wrong in my opinion.
 
2012-03-07 05:42:48 PM  

SuperNinjaToad: namegoeshere: I grew up Congregationalist. Like Methodists, Congregationalists tend to be laid back, all inclusive, non judgemental, warm fuzzy types. Although I no longer participate actively in churchy stuff, it farking kills me that so many bigoted, homophobic, woman hating, judgemental assholes have hijacked "Christianity" for their own purposes. THAT IS NOT WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS. I never heard hate preached in my church. Not once. I never heard that being gay was sinful. I never heard that a woman was dirty for using birth control.

Kudos to this woman for standing up and saying NO to this bullshiat. More need to do so.


well to be fair homosexuality is a sin... now the bible doesn;t say you should go beat gays up or mistreats them but it is considered sinful.

Lev. 20:13

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

However the Book of Leviticus as with most in the Old Testament was part of the mosaic law that was written to the Jews, not the Christians. Therefore, the condemnation of homosexuality in Leviticus does not apply to present day Christians. It is considered a sinful act no doubt but not one where you should condemn people to death or to mock.


Keep reading TFT. You'll get to the bible part.
 
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