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(Omaha World Herald)   Rev. Jane Florence of First United Methodist Church in Omaha: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"   (omaha.com) divider line 206
    More: Hero, Omaha, Alexander Payne, United Methodist Church, local churches, discrimination law, Pontius Pilate, workplace discrimination, cross-examination  
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7855 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2012 at 11:50 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-07 12:55:41 PM

simplicimus: HotWingConspiracy: simplicimus: HotWingConspiracy: That nice and all, but it doesn't change that the guiding text of her religion instructs people to kill gay men.

All these branches of chrisitanity define themselves through which parts of their holy text they ignore.

Kill Gays? Not so much.

It's right in the bible, brah.

Not the New Testament.


And Jesus never says, pay attention to the law they all apply... wait that's what it says at the fricking beginning of the sermon on the mount. It all applies until heaven and earth pass away. The gay is teh evil forever.Or at least all the jots and tittles.
 
2012-03-07 12:57:33 PM

simplicimus: All_Farked_Up: Duyogurt: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"

Wasn't this one of the original intentions of scripture though?

Not the gospels

Thank you. I'm getting tired of making the distinction between the gospels and St. Paul in these kind of threads.


The gospels say all the old gay-hatin' laws apply. They do this repeatedly. If anything it's Paul who says screw all those old laws, they are really cramping my evangelical efforts.
 
2012-03-07 12:58:41 PM

Inchoate: The mentions of sinful homosexuality are all either in the Old Testament or the Epistles of Paul, which means that some Christians do not consider them especially relevant.

I also think the super focus on homosexuality and sexual impurity is ... sort of creepy. Even if a church does consider those things wrong, it doesn't seem as important to fight them as other issues like dishonesty, greed, pride, selfishness, cruelty, etc. Sometimes I feel like the gay/sexual foci of many religious are just church-endorsed reasons to indulge hate of the outsider and an approved outlet for constant discussion of sex.


Well you have to either agree or disagree that Paul's letters are the inspired words of God. If you believe they are, then homosexuality is a sin. If you believe they are not, then at best homosexuality is not specifically mentioned, but at the same time you are not accepting Paul's letters as scripture, something on which Catholicism and mainstream Christianity both disagree.

As for the super focus on sexual impurity, the Bible teaches that one's body is a temple. To sin against the body is definitely a bad thing so sexuality is certainly covered in that. From the OT to NT, keeping one's body holy and not sinning against it is one of the supporting themes.
 
2012-03-07 01:01:05 PM

Lordserb: As for the super focus on sexual impurity, the Bible teaches that one's body is a temple. To sin against the body is definitely a bad thing so sexuality is certainly covered in that. From the OT to NT, keeping one's body holy and not sinning against it is one of the supporting themes.


Okay, but temples usually have a horde of people coming and going and enjoying themselves. So if your body's a temple, shouldn't that mean you want as many people inside as you can get?
 
2012-03-07 01:02:13 PM

Egoy3k: Do you actually do this? You might want to consider recording it next time you do it. I and many others would pay good money to watch an extremely effeminate guy beat the crap out of you.


Go up to random people and ask them if they're gay? No. If, however, someone is talking to me and they mention that they're gay, then I may bring up the topic of God and continue from there.
 
2012-03-07 01:03:14 PM

Tatarize: simplicimus: All_Farked_Up: Duyogurt: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"

Wasn't this one of the original intentions of scripture though?

Not the gospels

Thank you. I'm getting tired of making the distinction between the gospels and St. Paul in these kind of threads.

The gospels say all the old gay-hatin' laws apply. They do this repeatedly. If anything it's Paul who says screw all those old laws, they are really cramping my evangelical efforts.


Ok, one more time. Paul put in the anti-gay stuff to placate Tiberius, who was continuing Augustus' ruling about don't be gay all the time, Rome needs children. After Peter's crash and burn in Rome, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
 
2012-03-07 01:05:01 PM

BurnShrike: Lordserb: As for the super focus on sexual impurity, the Bible teaches that one's body is a temple. To sin against the body is definitely a bad thing so sexuality is certainly covered in that. From the OT to NT, keeping one's body holy and not sinning against it is one of the supporting themes.

Okay, but temples usually have a horde of people coming and going and enjoying themselves. So if your body's a temple, shouldn't that mean you want as many people inside as you can get?


Lol. Personally, I'd be more worried about filling my temple with greasy cheeseburgers and fries than using the exit door as an entrance.

Speaking of which, do the Fundies inform the fatties and smokers that they are sinners? If it's about defiling your temple then they are bigger sinners than teh gheys.
 
2012-03-07 01:05:18 PM

HotWingConspiracy: simplicimus: HotWingConspiracy: simplicimus: HotWingConspiracy: That nice and all, but it doesn't change that the guiding text of her religion instructs people to kill gay men.

All these branches of chrisitanity define themselves through which parts of their holy text they ignore.

Kill Gays? Not so much.

It's right in the bible, brah.

Not the New Testament.


Right, so again, they just pick and choose which parts to ignore and boom - they're a branch now.

Sure, throw out the old testament. fark it, probably not important.


I used the "do you eat shellfish? How about wearing clothes of different fibers?" argument on a Fundie once. She told me those were laws set down for the Israelites, not Gentiles.

Me: "So, does that mean we can ignore the Ten Commandment, too? They were for the Israelites."
Her: "STOP TWISTING MY WORDS! I bet you're a closet lesbian, anyway! Does your husband know you want to sleep with girls?"
Me: "No, I'm saving that info for when I want a new car."
 
2012-03-07 01:05:56 PM

Peppermint Rose: Paul is the historical figure I personally dislike the most & according to that raging asshole this woman shouldn't be a minister cause we women are inferior & shouldn't be teaching those of you blessed with magic pee sticks anything.


I was about to say "Countdown to people using Scripture to exclude, condemn, and marginalize this woman for being a female minister" but I see that idea's been covered.
 
2012-03-07 01:08:54 PM
Better reread that first commandment. By it's own definition, christianity is a source of human conflict, hatred, intolerance and misery. It's sewn into the bindings of your bibles. Don't get me wrong, it's adorable when people try to embrace tolerance and peace, but organized religion will never be anything better than a cancer upon humanity.
 
2012-03-07 01:10:08 PM
The disgrace is that people still refer to "scripture" for how to live their lives and treat other people and that it has any influence at all on law.

Yeah, people have always used religion to inform their opinions, blah blah blah, that doesn't make it reasonable. Most of them cherry pick the religious texts that (miraculously) agree with them and ignore the ones that don't. The approved religious texts are completely arbitrary, selected based on what a very small group of people thought should be included. None of it fell down from the heavens. It was all cobbled together by humans interested mostly in dictating to the rest of us how we should behave, in order to more easily control us, for their own purposes. It wasn't voted on by the majority of religious adherents. It didn't arise by consensus among the governed, it was imposed on them from above by people who considered themselves their superiors.

Common sense tells a reasonable person of normal intelligence that the way to assess policies and law is to apply facts, not the writings of ignorant men from thousands of years ago (or 100 years ago). Which explains why so many people in America have a problem with homos and/or birth control. They're not opposed to those things based on reason or logic or anything other than what a small group of ignorant assholes told them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "morality" and everything to do with willful ignorance and intellectual laziness. Or just general laziness.

A quote by Sallust is relevant here: Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master.

Religious people are enslaved. That they are fine with being enslaved doesn't make it any less true.
 
2012-03-07 01:11:16 PM

namegoeshere: Lol. Personally, I'd be more worried about filling my temple with greasy cheeseburgers and fries than using the exit door as an entrance.

Speaking of which, do the Fundies inform the fatties and smokers that they are sinners? If it's about defiling your temple then they are bigger sinners than teh gheys


Any sin means an eternity in Hell unless one repents and trusts in Christ. The concept of one sin being bigger than another is irrelevant.
 
2012-03-07 01:11:42 PM

boobsrgood: Better reread that first commandment. By it's own definition, christianity is a source of human conflict, hatred, intolerance and misery. It's sewn into the bindings of your bibles. Don't get me wrong, it's adorable when people try to embrace tolerance and peace, but organized religion will never be anything better than a cancer upon humanity.


Love thy God with all thy heart and soul? Or are you talking about the OT commandments?
 
2012-03-07 01:12:12 PM

Peppermint Rose: simplicimus: All_Farked_Up: Duyogurt: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"
...

Paul is the historical figure I personally dislike the most & according to that raging asshole this woman shouldn't be a minister cause we women are inferior & shouldn't be teaching those of you blessed with magic pee sticks anything.


Interestingly. Almost none of those parts are actually Paul. Paul's genuine corpus doesn't really say those things. Those are things that people lied and said they were Paul in some of the other letters and said. 1 Timothy where those parts are from are very well regarded as late forgeries written likely into the 2nd century as Paul was long since dead. Interesting the only major anti-woman bit in Paul's actual corpus is 1 Corinthians 14, and that's a later insert into that letter. Paul didn't say women shouldn't talk in church. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11 is rather clear that Paul says that while women talk in church they should wear hats. Which is genuinely regarded as authentic because only the anti-women backlash of the 2nd century in the church, nobody would have added into the letters something as crazy as women must wear hats when they talk in church.

While the objections to Christianity are great, namely the utter falseness of it, it turns out blaming Paul for sexism might be out of line.
 
2012-03-07 01:12:41 PM

Voiceofreason01: brigid_fitch: what_now: The Methodists are pretty cool. They've got the rainbow flags, female ministers etc etc.

That being said, they are considered heathens by the Evangelicals.

They aren't "born again" so they don't "count" to these people.

I know by Evangelical, you mean Fundies. There are progressive Evangelicals--the word is just Greek for "Good News". We Evangelical Lutherans (ELCA) are pretty progressive and we like the Methodists. The Missouri Synod Lutheran faction, on the other hand, are the crazy nutjobs.

Presiding Bishop of the ELCA Rev. Mark S. Hanson "It Gets Better" video (new window)

/they'll ordain LGBT folk too


Yup. Husband & I plan to renew our vows on our 20th anniversary in Nov. We're going to a gay Lutheran pastor just to freak out my bigoted family & my Fundie sister-in-law.
 
2012-03-07 01:13:07 PM

Netrngr: Every minister takes an oath when they are ordained that they will follow the word of God.


You must be pretty knowledgeable to know how every denomination ordains its ministers.
 
2012-03-07 01:18:54 PM

Lordserb: Egoy3k: Do you actually do this? You might want to consider recording it next time you do it. I and many others would pay good money to watch an extremely effeminate guy beat the crap out of you.

Go up to random people and ask them if they're gay? No. If, however, someone is talking to me and they mention that they're gay, then I may bring up the topic of God and continue from there.


Honest question: at what other sins do you conversationally "bring up the topic of God and continue from there"?

Also ITT: religious drama about this-means-that no-it-doesn't yes-it-does it-doesn't-even-count *zzzzzzzzzzz*.
Secular arguments about the Founding Fathers end up this way too often also.
I wish people would spend more time actually examining issues and less time trying to determine some absent, ostensibly perfect authority's opinion on them.

Lordserb: Speaking of which, do the Fundies inform the fatties and smokers that they are sinners? If it's about defiling your temple then they are bigger sinners than teh gheys

Any sin means an eternity in Hell unless one repents and trusts in Christ. The concept of one sin being bigger than another is irrelevant.


In practice, this always feels like the theological equivalent of 18 cops manning speed traps while 2 are left to deal with theft and violence.
 
2012-03-07 01:19:06 PM

simplicimus: ...

Ok, one more time. Paul put in the anti-gay stuff to placate Tiberius, who was continuing Augustus' ruling about don't be gay all the time, Rome needs children. After Peter's crash and burn in Rome, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.


What anti-gay stuff did Paul add? At most there's one reference that Paul makes to gays. And that's women against their purpose and rightly might be talking about women engaging in anal sex to avoid pregnancy. There's pretty much no evidence that Paul was writing to cave to any pressure here. Are you claiming that Paul edited the gospels or the old testament, because there's little indication that Paul knew anything about the gospels at all and generally distanced himself completely from the Torah.
 
2012-03-07 01:20:07 PM

HotWingConspiracy: That nice and all, but it doesn't change that the guiding text of her religion instructs people to kill gay men.

All these branches of chrisitanity define themselves through which parts of their holy text they ignore.


See that's my problem with christianity, the "good" christians are the ones that ignore the right parts of the bible and the "bad" christians are the ones that ignore the "love your neighbor" and "he who is without sin cast the first stone" parts of the bible.

In order for you to be a christian that I can even tolerate you have to ignore parts of the bible, and that is your founding document.
 
2012-03-07 01:20:26 PM

Lordserb: namegoeshere: Lol. Personally, I'd be more worried about filling my temple with greasy cheeseburgers and fries than using the exit door as an entrance.

Speaking of which, do the Fundies inform the fatties and smokers that they are sinners? If it's about defiling your temple then they are bigger sinners than teh gheys

Any sin means an eternity in Hell unless one repents and trusts in Christ. The concept of one sin being bigger than another is irrelevant.


LOL :) Do you have to repent each cupcake and cig, or once a month, or what? If you get hit by a train while puffing away and chugging a Big Gulp and don't have time to ask for forgiveness are you screwed?
 
2012-03-07 01:21:23 PM
I don't believe she's necessarily a hero in that there isn't much risk for her in speaking out like this. However, it is always nice to see someone like her speaking out and saying what many of us xtians feel but are usually too drowned out by the fundies to make our voices heard.
 
2012-03-07 01:23:44 PM

All_Farked_Up: Duyogurt: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"

Wasn't this one of the original intentions of scripture though?

Not the gospels


Don't forget the the Old Testament 'Great Commission':
 
2012-03-07 01:25:47 PM

Bluemookie: [i1080.photobucket.com image 320x240]


Except of course when Moses told the people not to return run away slaves "Because you yourselves were once slaves."
 
2012-03-07 01:28:53 PM
So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?
 
2012-03-07 01:29:04 PM

Tatarize: Peppermint Rose: simplicimus: All_Farked_Up: Duyogurt: "It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"
...

Paul is the historical figure I personally dislike the most & according to that raging asshole this woman shouldn't be a minister cause we women are inferior & shouldn't be teaching those of you blessed with magic pee sticks anything.

Interestingly. Almost none of those parts are actually Paul. Paul's genuine corpus doesn't really say those things. Those are things that people lied and said they were Paul in some of the other letters and said. 1 Timothy where those parts are from are very well regarded as late forgeries written likely into the 2nd century as Paul was long since dead. Interesting the only major anti-woman bit in Paul's actual corpus is 1 Corinthians 14, and that's a later insert into that letter. Paul didn't say women shouldn't talk in church. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11 is rather clear that Paul says that while women talk in church they should wear hats. Which is genuinely regarded as authentic because only the anti-women backlash of the 2nd century in the church, nobody would have added into the letters something as crazy as women must wear hats when they talk in church.

While the objections to Christianity are great, namely the utter falseness of it, it turns out blaming Paul for sexism might be out of line.


Do you happen to know who added the forgeries? If Paul is blameless in this I want to know who it is my most disliked historical person. I haven't been a Christian in a good (OMG I'm old) 20 years and was never very devout anyway. When I started studying to counter the claims of the ninny-heads about what the Bible says I didn't pay attention to Paul cause according to his own accounts of his conversion and belief I never thought he had any holy authority.
 
2012-03-07 01:29:25 PM

brigid_fitch: what_now: The Methodists are pretty cool. They've got the rainbow flags, female ministers etc etc.

That being said, they are considered heathens by the Evangelicals.

They aren't "born again" so they don't "count" to these people.

I know by Evangelical, you mean Fundies. There are progressive Evangelicals--the word is just Greek for "Good News". We Evangelical Lutherans (ELCA) are pretty progressive and we like the Methodists. The Missouri Synod Lutheran faction, on the other hand, are the crazy nutjobs.


The Missouri Synod folk are hippies compared to the WELS Lutherans. That's some backward crazy

/ELCA myself
 
2012-03-07 01:33:00 PM
So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?


No. I think your assessment of the situation is a bit skewed. When the religious speak against gay marriage, they're criticized for their bigotry. It's nothing to do with politics.
 
2012-03-07 01:33:59 PM
>>"It's a disgrace when Scripture is used to exclude and condemn and marginalize people"

The reason why this gets tagged with a hero tag is due to not being a total douche-bag while also being religious. It's like if a person with 1 leg can jog a mile. That's impressive. If a person can be religious and not be a total douche-bag. That's also impressive. But, make no mistake. I'm totally in favor of gay rights and I can jog a mile. But, I have both my legs and no religious fetters on my brain.

It's hero tag due to overcoming such a debilitating handicap and not letting it negatively affect how reasonable of a human being you are. But, it isn't as if there aren't huge tracts of reasonable people out there anyway, this one is just befuddled with religion and still reasonable. But, don't expect this to rise above the Special Olympics level of hero. She thinks the same as reasonable people think and is religious, isn't that neat! She does as much as normal people and has such a serious disability.

Also, it doesn't save her from being wrong. The Bible clearly does say being gay is bad and should get you a dirtnap. The disgrace is that people actually accept the Bible as an authority on anything. The ability to read a text without applying a hugely labored eisegetic spin, or a dozen pages of exegesis to explain away what it says, isn't a disgrace in and of itself. Delegating your actual moral understandings to a barbaric text is the disgrace.
 
2012-03-07 01:38:02 PM
Positive reinforcement. Treat people doing good things well and you get people wanting to do good things for that treatment. Do it to them too, and for long enough, and they start treating it as a habit.

But the only close to real argument against homosexuality is from religion. When you have religious leaders supporting homosexuality, that's a big help.
 
2012-03-07 01:39:27 PM

whatshisname: So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?

No. I think your assessment of the situation is a bit skewed. When the religious speak against gay marriage, they're criticized for their bigotry. It's nothing to do with politics.


In what universe is that true?

How come this reverend is allowed to be a pro gay-marriage, from a religious standpoint, in the secular arena, yet if she was against gay-marriage, most of you would be burning with rage that a religious person, who's organization is tax-exempt, is allowed to have an opinion expressed in the public square.
 
2012-03-07 01:40:32 PM

Flash_NYC: So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?


absolutely, and if christianity would just dry up and blow away like it should have hundreds of years ago we wouldn't even be having these conversations
 
2012-03-07 01:43:02 PM

LovingTeacher: Flash_NYC: So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?

absolutely, and if christianity would just dry up and blow away like it should have hundreds of years ago we wouldn't even be having these conversations


Doubtful. Do you even know the Jewish or Muslim opinion of homosexuality??
 
2012-03-07 01:44:25 PM

Peppermint Rose: Tatarize: ...

Do you happen to know who added the forgeries? If Paul is blameless in this I want to know who it is my most disliked historical person. I haven't been a Christian in a good (OMG I'm old) 20 years and was never very devout anyway. When I started studying to counter the claims of the ninny-heads about what the Bible says I didn't pay attention to Paul cause according to his own accounts of his conversion and belief I never thought he had any holy authority.


No. How could I? With the exception of a couple bits of Paul's we don't know who wrote anything. And even then some of the bits of Paul might be interpolation too, it wouldn't be impossible to slip something Paul might have agreed with into one of Paul's genuine letters, it's only due to the hamfisted nature of some of them that we know some parts are forgeries.

Several of them are entire letters that start out saying "This is Paul writing this, I may look strange but that's because I'm dictating the letter, this letter is nothing like all those Pauline forgeries going around, this is the real McCoy!" -- And then proceeds to lay out all the various rivalries of the 2nd century. Yeah, we beat those Jews, women shouldn't have any place in the church, in fact here's how this the future church should be laid out. Also screw Marcion, that guy is entirely wrong about how things should be setup.

We don't rightly have any clue who wrote this stuff, some unknown political/religious rivals in the 2nd century, using Paul's voice to influence the church. But, when you chop off everything that is imposter-Paul you actually lose everything that's overtly sexist.
 
2012-03-07 01:49:15 PM

Inchoate: Honest question: at what other sins do you conversationally "bring up the topic of God and continue from there"?


Heh, actually a lot of stuff. More often I would say I talk about how being drunk is a sin (not having a drink, just being drunk). A lot of it really just depends on who i'm talking to. The singular point though, isn't to berate a person about the fact that they sinned, as much as it is to point out that Christ loves you, no matter what sins you have done. Christ wants you to stop sinning and trust in him.

The reason that i generally hop in on this discussion is because so many people try and paint Christianity as homosexual hating, when it doesn't teach that at all. Sure, some people go out and make fools of themselves by saying we should kill the gays or other nonsense, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe that way.
 
2012-03-07 01:50:13 PM

Flash_NYC: How come this reverend is allowed to be a pro gay-marriage, from a religious standpoint, in the secular arena, yet if she was against gay-marriage, most of you would be burning with rage that a religious person, who's organization is tax-exempt, is allowed to have an opinion expressed in the public square.


She's *allowed* to be whatever she wants.
If she were "against gay marriage" in her own church, that makes her an asshole, but whatever, their business.
If she were "against gay marriage" in society period, I'd be angry because I get angry when religious folks invoke God (and nothing else) to tell the rest of us what to do.
If she wants to advocate for love and understanding, well then, we can all use some of that, can't we?
 
2012-03-07 01:55:32 PM

namegoeshere: Lordserb: namegoeshere: Lol. Personally, I'd be more worried about filling my temple with greasy cheeseburgers and fries than using the exit door as an entrance.

Speaking of which, do the Fundies inform the fatties and smokers that they are sinners? If it's about defiling your temple then they are bigger sinners than teh gheys

Any sin means an eternity in Hell unless one repents and trusts in Christ. The concept of one sin being bigger than another is irrelevant.

LOL :) Do you have to repent each cupcake and cig, or once a month, or what? If you get hit by a train while puffing away and chugging a Big Gulp and don't have time to ask for forgiveness are you screwed?


Any time I sin, i pray to God and confess my sin. If I were to get hit by a train right as I am sinning, I would still go to Heaven as my sins have already been forgiven. They were paid for by Christ when he died on the cross. To accept the gift his Christ's sacrifice, one needs to repent (turn away) from their sins and accept Christ as their God and savior.

The idea of constantly confessing our sins is because we can't hide from God. If we sin, and still try to have a relationship with God, we will always have that unconfessed sin standing between us. God wants us to recognize that when we sin we need to immediately get right with God. We might still be punished for what we did, but any good father would do the same thing to their child.
 
2012-03-07 01:57:27 PM

simplicimus: Love thy God with all thy heart and soul? Or are you talking about the OT commandments?


A patently disingenuous contribution in defense of religious dogma. That's a first.
 
2012-03-07 01:58:23 PM

Flash_NYC: LovingTeacher: Flash_NYC: So a reverend speaks out in favor of gay marriage, she's a hero.

OK, got it.

When a reverend speaks out against gay marriage, it's, "Separation of church and state! No tax exempt status for the church, for interfering with politics!! They're trying to impose religious beliefs on us!!"

Does anyone see the problem here?

absolutely, and if christianity would just dry up and blow away like it should have hundreds of years ago we wouldn't even be having these conversations

Doubtful. Do you even know the Jewish or Muslim opinion of homosexuality??


true, however the jews and muslims are very small minorities here in America and I'm sure that if the majority of us were atheists then the religious ones would be too embarrassed by their backwardness to speak up much
 
2012-03-07 02:00:22 PM

Lordserb: Any time I sin, i pray to God and confess my sin. If I were to get hit by a train right as I am sinning, I would still go to Heaven as my sins have already been forgiven.


So if a mass murderer was crying for forgiveness as he slaughtered his victims he would go to heaven and because I enjoy getting drunk and don't believe in god I would go to hell?
 
2012-03-07 02:00:31 PM
One Sunday, my pastor said, "I haven't got time to worry about peoples' behavior in the bedroom. I have my hands full just trying to keep church folk from gossiping about each other."

Amen and amen.
 
2012-03-07 02:02:31 PM

cherryl taggart: One Sunday, my pastor said, "I haven't got time to worry about peoples' behavior in the bedroom. I have my hands full just trying to keep church folk from gossiping about each other."

Amen and amen.


And now you're on Fark gossiping about what your pastor told you. Hmmm..
 
2012-03-07 02:04:57 PM

boobsrgood: simplicimus: Love thy God with all thy heart and soul? Or are you talking about the OT commandments?

A patently disingenuous contribution in defense of religious dogma. That's a first.


Hey, I make a distinction between the two gospel commandments and the ten OT commandments.
 
2012-03-07 02:07:45 PM

Egoy3k: Lordserb: Any time I sin, i pray to God and confess my sin. If I were to get hit by a train right as I am sinning, I would still go to Heaven as my sins have already been forgiven.

So if a mass murderer was crying for forgiveness as he slaughtered his victims he would go to heaven and because I enjoy getting drunk and don't believe in god I would go to hell?


It's worse than that. Jeffery Dahmer converted and was baptized before his cellmate killed him. Heaven. Gandhi never accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Hell.

While there may be some reasons to suppose based on the denomination that Dahmer might miss out on heaven, certainly being a Hindu will get you eternal torture forever and ever. The system is entirely screwed. Hitler with a couple words to Jesus could go to heaven, Anne Frank died Jewish and God will have her burned forever and ever for being Jewish, coincidentally the same reason the Nazis murdered her.
 
2012-03-07 02:09:11 PM

LovingTeacher: HotWingConspiracy: That nice and all, but it doesn't change that the guiding text of her religion instructs people to kill gay men.

All these branches of chrisitanity define themselves through which parts of their holy text they ignore.

See that's my problem with christianity, the "good" christians are the ones that ignore the right parts of the bible and the "bad" christians are the ones that ignore the "love your neighbor" and "he who is without sin cast the first stone" parts of the bible.

In order for you to be a christian that I can even tolerate you have to ignore parts of the bible, and that is your founding document.


Absolutely true. But that's the thing about religion - it's all speculation. You couldn't possibly believe and live by everything the Bible says, way too many contradictions. Nobody really truly knows for certain what God is, what God wants, or if there even is a God. People have their beliefs, but that's all. I choose to believe that God is more like the NT God, love thy neighbor and all that stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, but I think it's more foolish to believe what a large group tells you that they know for certain with regards to God or anything else they can't possibly know for certain than it is to come up with your own personal belief based on what you've experienced/learned/considered.
 
2012-03-07 02:09:12 PM

simplicimus:
Hey, I make a distinction between the two gospel commandments and the ten OT commandments.


Let me guess. Because they are different?
 
2012-03-07 02:12:20 PM

Tatarize: simplicimus:
Hey, I make a distinction between the two gospel commandments and the ten OT commandments.

Let me guess. Because they are different?


Nah, just more concise. The OT 10 are 5 about about the man and God, the other 5 about man and man. Christ just simplified the code.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-03-07 02:13:28 PM

Lordserb: mcsestretch: Well said, Reverend! Well said!

It's about time more people who believes the same way as she does to get in front of cameras and hold those accountable who would prefer we marginalize certain groups solely because they don't like them.

Bravo! Bravo!

Yet at the same time, the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. Simply because some people think this is unpopular doesn't mean that churches shouldn't teach this. It is unpopular for churches to teach that there is a literal Hell, so should that stop them from teaching what the Bible says as well?

When people say they "hate" gays they are absolutely wrong. When people say that being gay is a sin, imho they are correct. The difference, however is all about how your own personal feelings are and how you deal with the situation. If you hate gays, then you are sinning and need to reevaluate how you act and think. If instead you love gays i the same manner that you love the rest of humanity then as a Christian you should treat them like any other person with a sin problem. Inform them (politely) of what is a sin, reference scripture and explain that Christ loves all sinners and wants them to acknowledge their sins, turn from them and trust in Christ to save them from their sins.

Any gay hating/bashing is absolutely wrong and definitely prohibited in the bible and I will never support those actions.


Teaching isn't the problem, it's trying to force people to follow your beliefs. When you try to use religion as an excuse to attack other people then it is a problem. If you don't like gay marriage don't marry a gay. Simple.

If some group of Jews and/or Muslims tries to outlaw bacon then I will support it just to make a point.
 
2012-03-07 02:14:27 PM

BurnShrike: FlashHarry: BurnShrike: What exactly makes this lady a hero?

um... gee, i dunno... the fact that she's a methodist minister speaking out against religiously sanctioned hatred, which has become prevalent in this debate?

So she's a religious leader who isn't a bigot trying to control other people's genitalia. That makes her a hero?


More so than most Farkers, sadly.
 
2012-03-07 02:17:37 PM

Tatarize: t's worse than that. Jeffery Dahmer converted and was baptized before his cellmate killed him. Heaven. Gandhi never accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Hell.


To be fair Ghandi was a religious extremist as well so I don't much care about his afterlife either.

Either way I figure that if god exists (which I don't believe for a second) he doesn't give two shiats about which building I spend my Sundays in and he could care less who I decide to love or even if i believe in him. If he's all that they say he is, then he would just be happy if I made the world a slightly better place which is what I strive to do every day.
 
2012-03-07 02:20:14 PM

namegoeshere: My favorite minister growing up, who used to ride to church on his Harley, once took the Bible off of the pulpit and threw it on the floor. There were gasps, and then silence. He said, "What? It's just a book."

He went on to say, (paraphrasing to the best of my memory - this was 30 years ago) "The Bible is not the Perfect Word of God. [more gasps, more silence, uncomfortable squirming now] The Bible is man's imperfect interpretation of the Perfect Word of God. The sky did not open up one day and out fell the King James Revised. Man wrote it. Based on the Word of God, yeah. To the best of our ability and understanding, sure. But we're not perfect. We are all biased by the spirit of the times in which we live. We mortals see and repeat everything through the filter of our own knowledge, experience, and understanding. Because we are mortal, this knowledge, experience, and understanding is imperfect, as are we. Therefore, the Bible and everything in it must be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. It is a guide. It's a starting point. It is the inspiration for discussion. It is largely metaphorical. It is not a How-To manual."

Good guy, that one. Congregationalist.


I have a feeling that speech went over like a fart in a car. Some people are not open-minded enough to see the Bible like that. Others would shoot you dead for burning one.

I agree with that pastor, but I wonder if he got run out of town on a rail after that one. I hope he didn't, and the congregation benefited as a result.
 
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