Cataholic: I assume this is another thread where non-Catholics tell Catholics what Catholics should believe and get all upset when they follow rules that non-Catholics disagree with.

I went to Catholic school for 13 years, I'm allowed to take shots at the church. Given that I went to a Jesuit run high school, and the Jesuits have more than a few issues with the church, shouldn't expect anything else.

WhyteRaven74: kim jong-un: So does that mean I can convert to Judaism and skip the circumcision?

If you have any of the various conditions that impedes clotting, you sure can. And I'm sure there would be other medical conditions for which a rabbi would make an exception.

Nah, I just don't feel like getting a circumcision. I'm just going to skip that part.

Buttle not Tuttle: drumdaddyjb: so, since I may be the only minister that posts on Fark (from time to time), maybe I should chime in.

I'm not Catholic, so I should get that out of the way first. My particular denomination doesn't impose the kind of hierarchy on me that Catholics have imposed on them. Not saying its more right or wrong, but just some context.

I've probably done over 40 funerals by now, some for people I barely knew, and some for people I loved dearly, including my own grandmother, and I hold to a pretty fast rule for funerals: Funerals are for the family. If the deceased had specific wishes, I honor them at all costs, but otherwise everything I do is to try and help a family grieve in a healthy way and get some kind of closure.

I look at all the times that Jesus meets sinners in the Bible, and I never see Him attack them. He does ask them at times to "sin no more," but only after meeting them with love, grace, and mercy.

So yeah, I would never have made her feel like a second-class citizen at her mother's funeral, and pretty much think any pastor who would should rethink his career. I hear Jiffy-Lube is hiring a lot of folks these days.

Since nobody else has said it -

Thank you for the most insightful post in this thread. Personally I don't believe in a higher power, but when someone dies, the rest of us who are living have some unfinished business, and it seems human to gather and recognize that the person we knew is dead, and to pay tribute to the life they lived. I don't see any other institutions that can really do it, so it seems to fall to churches to perform that task. Thank you for carrying out your responsibilities with sympathy and tact. We who are there to pay our respects to the ones we knew and loved notice and appreciate it.



This goes for the both of you.

WTF Indeed: What did she expect? That's like walking up to bear with a steak tied to your arm and then complain that the bear bit your arm off.

This. So much this.

CanisNoir: whippersnapper: Totally disagree. He can't presume to know the state of her soul. He can advise her of the rules, but as long as she's not out publicly forswearing her faith, he's out of line.

She was there with her Lesbian partner, so there was no question about her state of her soul.

That's completely false. You may as well say that because I went to Mass with some heavy metal music on my phone that I'm a devil worshiper and the priest should deny me communion. Or if I'm known to swear a lot and take the Lord's name in vain that the priest should deny me communion, because he hasn't heard my confession yet (let alone that I could've gone to someone else).

Look, the point is that when priests start playing these games, nothing good comes of it. It's not their duty to enforce those rules in this context. Doing so is impractical and deleterious to the purpose of the sacrament. It's incumbent upon the individual to know their personal state of grace, to know whether or not they should receive, and to accept the consequences of participating. It's between them and God, not them and the priest.

Livingroom: RexTalionis: The funny thing, of course, is that the Bible doesn't say a single thing about lesbianism whatsoever.

hmm, here it is in virtually every bible around:

http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm

whether it's gay men or gay women, the point the bible is making: homosexuality is strictly forbidden. this is one thing the catholics and I agree on, its disappointing there are so many homosexual pedophile priests that disregard this forbidding.

Or maybe that's been mistranslated from a condemnation of "raping young boys (raping women, still a-ok)" into a condemnation of consenting adults living their lives. You know, like your link discusses. You don't even know what's in your farking book. You believe the ultimate power of, and embodyment of everything good in this universe, and arbiter of the next asked you to effectively do two things: Don't be a dick, read this book. And you did the opposite. You pervert the gifts of your Father to attack and diminish the lives of others. When your Jesus condemns the hypocrites, proclaiming their reward to be that spectical they make, He's refering to you. Or maybe, you're a Satanist. That'd be just like Satan, send his minions out there to lie their asses off about what the Word of God commands.

/It really says something about a religion that specifically commands it's faithful to not rape young boys to then have the most standout feature of their clergy being the worldwide rape of young boys.

tinfoil-hat maggie: Buttle not Tuttle: drumdaddyjb: so, since I may be the only minister that posts on Fark (from time to time), maybe I should chime in.

I'm not Catholic, so I should get that out of the way first. My particular denomination doesn't impose the kind of hierarchy on me that Catholics have imposed on them. Not saying its more right or wrong, but just some context.

I've probably done over 40 funerals by now, some for people I barely knew, and some for people I loved dearly, including my own grandmother, and I hold to a pretty fast rule for funerals: Funerals are for the family. If the deceased had specific wishes, I honor them at all costs, but otherwise everything I do is to try and help a family grieve in a healthy way and get some kind of closure.

I look at all the times that Jesus meets sinners in the Bible, and I never see Him attack them. He does ask them at times to "sin no more," but only after meeting them with love, grace, and mercy.

So yeah, I would never have made her feel like a second-class citizen at her mother's funeral, and pretty much think any pastor who would should rethink his career. I hear Jiffy-Lube is hiring a lot of folks these days.

Since nobody else has said it -

Thank you for the most insightful post in this thread. Personally I don't believe in a higher power, but when someone dies, the rest of us who are living have some unfinished business, and it seems human to gather and recognize that the person we knew is dead, and to pay tribute to the life they lived. I don't see any other institutions that can really do it, so it seems to fall to churches to perform that task. Thank you for carrying out your responsibilities with sympathy and tact. We who are there to pay our respects to the ones we knew and loved notice and appreciate it.

Well said both of you.

The most memorable funeral I've ever done, I really did very little. My part lasted less than 5 minutes, and the rest was the family taking turns going to the pulpit and essentially telling dirty stories about the guy who had died. His wife was a saint, and this guy was pretty much a roughneck, the place was full, in a little town where everyone was related, and the man had died a horribly slow death (COPD, struggled for every breath). The funeral was almost festive, and by the end, it felt like this guy's life had truly been celebrated and appreciated.

/i know, csb

CanisNoir: whippersnapper: Totally disagree. He can't presume to know the state of her soul. He can advise her of the rules, but as long as she's not out publicly forswearing her faith, he's out of line.

She was there with her Lesbian partner, so there was no question about her state of her soul.

And the coveters in $1,500 suits? Was the state of their souls not equally bare? Were they refused communion?

CanisNoir: whippersnapper: Totally disagree. He can't presume to know the state of her soul. He can advise her of the rules, but as long as she's not out publicly forswearing her faith, he's out of line.

She was there with her Lesbian partner, so there was no question about her state of her soul.

Unless he has special Soul View powers (in which case he should confirm once and for all that souls actually exist), then he has no say about anything regarding it.

Did not God himself say that only he can judge?

Livingroom: whether it's gay men or gay women, the point the bible is making: homosexuality is strictly forbidden.

Well, centuries-old interpretations from old European men of a multiply-translated book of desert folk tales and oral traditions from the Middle-East says that. So, yeah, it's right there, people!

Karma Curmudgeon: CanisNoir: whippersnapper: Totally disagree. He can't presume to know the state of her soul. He can advise her of the rules, but as long as she's not out publicly forswearing her faith, he's out of line.

She was there with her Lesbian partner, so there was no question about her state of her soul.

And the coveters in $1,500 suits? Was the state of their souls not equally bare? Were they refused communion?

Who were they coveting?
Did someone show up in a $3,000 dollar suit?

Also: there aren't supposed to be any eulogies in Catholic funerals (they're supposed to be at the wake). So the priest even failed at being a stickler.

CanisNoir: She was there with her Lesbian partner, so there was no question about her state of her soul.

Per the Bible, on God knows the state of someone's soul. And God alone gets to judge.

There's a difference between attending the funeral and attending Communion. Like it or not, the Bible specifically says that homosexuality is wrong, and if you haven't given up your sins, you have no right to attend Communion.

This never would have happened at the church I attend. The priest has buried gay people, people who have committed suicide (in fact a well publized case of a gay young man who committed suicide) and people who are catholic and haven't attended church in years. And the church wonders why attendance is on the decline.

j0ndas: the Bible specifically says that homosexuality is wrong

It doesn't. But even if it did, it also says eating shellfish is wrong. It says a whole lot of things are wrong. If you were to enforce all those things, there'd be no one left to go to church.

As a pastor, this was UNCALLED for. HE is NOT CHRIST (without sin) himself.
AND, with all the "pedophilia" among priests, WHO the hell is he to pass judgment?
I thought "acceptance" and "forgiving" were basic tenets of ANY church.
AND at her MOM's FUNERAL???

/kicked and screamed at my parents-GET ME OUT OF CATHOLIC GRADE SCHOOL NOW
//finally went to public school-what a relief-no Nun's slapping students with rulers
///have an aunt who is a nun-smartest lady (80) and still going strong-works with inner city kids in Milwaukee

This reminds me of a funeral for one of my best friends, who was gay. During the service, at a roman catholic church, the priest did not openly condemn my friend for being gay, but he did say something along the lines of, "He certainly made some really bad choices that will affect his soul...." Fortunately my friend's family did not pick up on any of that, they were too distraught. But several of his friends did not miss it. Fortunately I got to ride in the hearse with the priest. When he turned to talk to me I told him to fark off and go to hell. I then told him that if he made any other inappropriate comments I would come back to the church the following day and kick his ass. Luckily he did not make any other inappropriate comments. I have to say that it felt very good telling him off.

Rapmaster2000: roadmarks: Mija: You have to repent of sins to take communion. When even God calls you an abomination you cannot partake in the body and blood of the Savior. You can't have it both ways. Love God, repent and enjoy communion. Love your sin more than God then shut up. You made your choice.

Have you repented every single lie you have ever told?

Because God calls lying lips abominations too.

I'm pretty sure the Bible is just a salad bar. You can eat pork or nun if you feel like it.

Me, I never take the pickled beets. A vile creation from the devil himself.

You shut your whore mouth! Pickled beets rule.

On topic? yeah, it's exactly this kind of thing that helped turn me from a lifelong Catholic (12 years of Catechism, Youth group leader etc) into what I am today, which is to say an "atheist/recovering Catholic". Before I left the church I went on a retreat in which the Church tried to get a bunch of us to sign on to their anti gay and anti birth control derp in which I explained carefully why I considered my pro BC, pro civil rights for gays stance to be more morally evolved than theirs and why the church's inability to drag itself out of a previous century was a dealbreaker for me. Yeah, kind awkward. Have never regretted it though.

/As an aside Billy Joel's "Only the Good Die Young" was a song that I had to fight to be able to play at Youth Group dances and which also, proved to be consistently the most popular tune of the night.
//No, never got permission to play the Zappa, something I regret to this day.

Nonstory, overzealous staffer.

"The fact that you did not experience this is a cause of great concern and personal regret to me. It is understandable that you and your family would expect the funeral of your mother to be a time of fond remembrance of her life and comfort from the Church in the midst of family grief."

The letter apologized for the "lack of pastoral sensitivity."

Going to be ignored, of course.

Reaperman: And the church wonders why attendance is on the decline.

My dad is a church organist and a couple weeks ago he told me about the homily the priest gave Sunday morning. It was an allegory about what happens to a church when it becomes an authority and gets money and power. Yeah, he was basically dissing what's gone on for a long time. Namely the whole "We're supposed to be here for everyone, but we'll actually only be here for the people who follow the rules we make up as we go along" thing.

Livingroom: you'll spend eternity in a hell and the lake of fire

there is no hell

Of course, the Bible doesn't say anything about lesbians. Not a word.
The fables about the Haploid of Nazareth and the ravings of Saul the Epileptic Murderer of Tarsus might, but not Torah.

whippersnapper: hat's completely false. You may as well say that because I went to Mass with some heavy metal music on my phone that I'm a devil worshiper and the priest should deny me communion.

Barbara Johnson knew last Saturday, the day of her mother's funeral, would be difficult. But she and her lesbian partner of 20 years had no idea that the priest at St. John Neumann Catholic Church in Gaithersburg, Md., would be a source of her grief.

Listening to Heavy Metal music is not against the policies of the Church. Again, the *Official* Position of the Catholic Church is that homosexuality is a mortal sin. Asking him to offer communion to her is the same as asking him to offer it to someone who's been excommunicated. By denying her communion, the priest is not making a judgement call, he's simply following the official position of the Church he belongs to.

She is getting upset because her own ignorance caused her added grief - she could have researched the policy on Homosexuality before scheduling to have the funeral there, or she could have not gotten in line to receive communion. The guy was a dick for not letting her read her eulogy and becoming "ill" for the burial, and he could have explained in kinder terms why he denied her communion, but he was *not* being a dick for denying her the sacrament. Catholic doctrine dictates that she is unfit to receive it.

halfof33: The letter apologized for the "lack of pastoral sensitivity."

Part of that would be, not being a judgmental douche bag.

genner: Who were they coveting?

And he said to them, "Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Meesterjojo: Well God damnit, is this some new, shocking thing that the Roman Catholic church doesn't like homosexuals? What the fark? I'm more shocked/surprised that people are shocked/surprised that the denied communion.

"hey guys, the sky is blue"
"ok, the sky is blue"
...10 years later
"GUYS THE SKY IS BLUE HOLY shiat THIS IS SO NEW TO ME"

Call the church a pack of dicks, assholes, or what have you, but damn- their beliefs on this particular subject are not new, and shouldn't surprise anyone except a select group of crybabies.

I am a fairly militant atheist and I completely agree with this,

Listen up gay people, the Catholic church doesn't want you. Either find a church that does or give up on church altogether.

Trying to force them to accept you just makes you as big of a dick as they are.

I just think it's remarkable how many people get hung up on nailing people to the wall (if you'll pardon the reference) when it comes to these things.

The moment we accept that Person X somehow isn't Catholic anymore because of X sin, we accept that everyone's auto-excommunicated because everyone sins. The precise point of the matter is that everyone sins, and that God calls sinners to conversion. Even Jesus said he came for sinners, not those who were already holy (Mark 2:17)!

The sacraments are there to help people grow closer to God. All this finger-pointing and litmus testing and jockeying over who's really a Catholic and who isn't based on their favorite sin does nothing but undermine the mission of the Church and indulge people's proclivity to cast judgment over each other. It directly contradicts Christ's own instruction to us (Matt 7:5).

The Church's job is to educate, inform, and assist people who seek God. In the end, it's the weaknesses of the individual and the decisions they make that create that individual's journey. Castigations and litmus tests are not appropriate. Pastoral care is.

/for the record, I know many priests who would be horrified at what this guy did

Catholics defend their church when it protects and enables child rapists.

It is a no brainer that they'll defend the church's actions when one of its representatives openly expresses hate for gays. It is formal church policy to spread the hate for gays.

/woman he offended was probably paying him to perform the service
//if she was I'm sure he had no problem taking money from a gay person

I_Am_Weasel: Something, something, something body of Christ, something, mouth, something.

Something, something, couldn't she something something mouth arse something just ask one of those other Priests standing there to deliver Communion and finish the ceremony?

/sounds like fishing for a lawsuit to me

WhyteRaven74: halfof33: The letter apologized for the "lack of pastoral sensitivity."

Part of that would be, not being a judgmental douche bag.

Yeah, that is the point.

Of course, everybody is going to be smeared with this asshole's dickishness.

Dumb ass. I mean him not you

Catholics gotta start letting the the priests get married.

CanisNoir: Again, the *Official* Position of the Catholic Church is that homosexuality is a mortal sin

No it's not. Homosexuality by itself isn't any sort of sin to the church.

frenchcheesemuseum: It also says haircuts are a sin.

Well there's a lot of heavy metal musicians who are going to heaven then.

CanisNoir: Asking him to offer communion to her is the same as asking him to offer it to someone who's been excommunicated.

Nope.

"If he has taken appropriate steps to inform those present of the importance of receiving Communion in the state of grace, then responsibility for an unworthy Communion falls exclusively upon the conscience of the person who receives it."
Link (new window)

Lehk: Livingroom: you'll spend eternity in a hell and the lake of fire

there is no hell

Catholics created the idea of hell and a lake of fire and brimstone specifically to scare people into becoming Catholics.

Lucifer as we know him today? Also a Catholic creation. Before, he was the most beautiful of the angels who was cast out, and that's it. Catholics took the description of Pan (human top half with the legs and horns of a goat, also the typical depiction of a satyr) and stuck it onto Lucifer and made it more monstrous, as well as making him the ruler of hell. The host of angels that were cast out with Lucifer were also turned into disfigured demons by Catholics, all of it used as a means to frighten people into converting to Catholicism to be "protected" from the horrible evil things and their terrifying home.

drumdaddyjb: so, since I may be the only minister that posts on Fark (from time to time), maybe I should chime in.

I'm not Catholic, so I should get that out of the way first. My particular denomination doesn't impose the kind of hierarchy on me that Catholics have imposed on them. Not saying its more right or wrong, but just some context.

I've probably done over 40 funerals by now, some for people I barely knew, and some for people I loved dearly, including my own grandmother, and I hold to a pretty fast rule for funerals: Funerals are for the family. If the deceased had specific wishes, I honor them at all costs, but otherwise everything I do is to try and help a family grieve in a healthy way and get some kind of closure.

I look at all the times that Jesus meets sinners in the Bible, and I never see Him attack them. He does ask them at times to "sin no more," but only after meeting them with love, grace, and mercy.

So yeah, I would never have made her feel like a second-class citizen at her mother's funeral, and pretty much think any pastor who would should rethink his career. I hear Jiffy-Lube is hiring a lot of folks these days.

Good.

I'm an atheist but I see the continued need for things like funerals and memorials, and glad to see there's someone in the clergy with some common sense.

WhyteRaven74: No it's not. Homosexuality by itself isn't any sort of sin to the church.

The Roman Catholic Church considers human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Sexual acts other than "unprotected" vaginal intercourse within a heterosexual marriage are considered sinful because in the Church's understanding, sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[52]


I'm pretty sure they do.

phxmke: As a pastor, this was UNCALLED for. HE is NOT CHRIST (without sin) himself.
AND, with all the "pedophilia" among priests, WHO the hell is he to pass judgment?
I thought "acceptance" and "forgiving" were basic tenets of ANY church.
AND at her MOM's FUNERAL???

/kicked and screamed at my parents-GET ME OUT OF CATHOLIC GRADE SCHOOL NOW
//finally went to public school-what a relief-no Nun's slapping students with rulers
///have an aunt who is a nun-smartest lady (80) and still going strong-works with inner city kids in Milwaukee

U mad bro?

phxmke: As a pastor, this was UNCALLED for. HE is NOT CHRIST (without sin) himself.
AND, with all the "pedophilia" among priests, WHO the hell is he to pass judgment?
I thought "acceptance" and "forgiving" were basic tenets of ANY church.
AND at her MOM's FUNERAL???

/kicked and screamed at my parents-GET ME OUT OF CATHOLIC GRADE SCHOOL NOW
//finally went to public school-what a relief-no Nun's slapping students with rulers
///have an aunt who is a nun-smartest lady (80) and still going strong-works with inner city kids in Milwaukee

OK, so let's say, hypothetically, I want to be a by the rules preacher man. This is your congregation (presumptively) and your mother was clearly a member. She's being buried in the hallowed plot and all that happy horsehockey.

Let's go on to say that you live in the same area or are indeed on the rolls as a member of the congregation, or what have you. The funeral is during the week. Did I see you at confession? No? You're not in a state grace. No communion.

Look, I'm not even catholic, but at weddings and such I see totally lapsed catholics taking communion and many of them know damn well they aren't even supposed to receive it. but they do it because it's expected. If you're not in a state of grace, don't f**king que up with everyone else.

Fun fact, if she HAD confessed, I don't think any priest would have denied her the communion.

Your huggy lovey BS concept of christiandom, and much of the internets, is much like the internets knowledge of.. law, or art, or anything. Everyone thinks they're a god damned expert.

You want to be an out lesbian and take communion at your mother's funeral? Confess first! Why the f**k should the priest break the rules if the penitent isn't going to bother? And it's not like it was a kosher funeral where they throw you in the ground the next day, these people had time, probably DAYS to get that over with to avoid any embarrassment, but would rather just WING it and look like fools.

I've been to plenty of catholic masses for various events, when everyone gets up, I stand up, get out of people way and then sit right back down.

So if you're mad at the whole thing, DON'T GO, but don't confuse your butthurt and stupid opinions with knowledge of how religions actually function.

Sadly, nobody apparently had the presence of mind to beat the living snot out of this assclown.

She could've/should've used a different franchise.

Karma Curmudgeon: genner: Who were they coveting?

And he said to them, "Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

coveting present participle of cov·et
Verb:
Yearn to possess or have (something).


The problem isn't having things it's the greed of wanting more.
If you hate every guy in a expensive suite your the one with the problem.

whippersnapper: "If he has taken appropriate steps to inform those present of the importance of receiving Communion in the state of grace, then responsibility for an unworthy Communion falls exclusively upon the conscience of the person who receives it."

He didn't, so the point here is moot.

Also, the priest should not deprive the faithful who are in the state of grace of the opportunity of fully participating in the Sacrifice of the Mass by receiving Communion. In doing so, he unjustly deprives them of their rights as baptized Catholics.

She admits that she is not one of the "Faithful" as she does not belong to this church, it was the Church her parents went to.

As others have pointed out, the Catholic Churchs position on Homosexuality is not new, nor is the idea of them with holding communion from those they feel ignore their doctrines. If communion meant so much to her, she could have found a denomination that accepted her life style or had no problem giving her the sacrament, they do exist. In fact, if she were one of the faithful, as the answer to the question addresses, she would have known. The whole thing could have been avoided had she just not gotten in line.

I say again, the guy acted like a dick, but not because he denied her communion.