It was a dick move that the dick priest had every right to make.

Paying attention fundies? This would be the other side of the separation of church and state coin.

The church has no legal power in government, and in exchange the government can't force you not to be dicks in the house of God.

Keizer_Ghidorah: Jesus said these things, so they must be true and correct

And if Jesus said that the only way into heaven was to eat still-living infants while their parents were forced to watch and then smother yourself in the bodies of those you ritually sacrificed until you died of suffocation, would you say that's true and correct?

He also said some things about not eating sea creatures, not wearing a blend of fabrics, and to force people to become Christians or slaughter them in his Father's name and take all they own. Come on, all ye faithful, chop chop.

I happen to think his views on polyester were spot on.

skullkrusher: They replaced it with the Book of Vodka Gimlet and Tom Collins Recipes

Testify!

Way to love and tolerate there padre.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Is this entire story and thread about people being surprised at a Catholic priest being a douchenozzle, and other douchenozzles defending him? Really?

Yeah, pretty much. But you gotta admit it's a little lulzy.

Bathia_Mapes

>>> WTF Indeed: What did she expect? That's like walking up to
>>> bear with a steak tied to your arm and then complain that
>>> the bear bit your arm off.

As the article said, if there was an issue with her receiving communion, that was something that was supposed to be dealt with in private, not in public as this priest did.

How dare a religious leader follow the non-violent teachings of his faith. o.O

She got in line knowing it was an issue.
Fark her.

To handle it "in private", the priest would still have had to tell her NO in line. No change in the situation. She's an attention whore, nothing more. Hopefully she'll see mom soon.

jvl: GAT_00: WTF Indeed: What did she expect? That's like walking up to bear with a steak tied to your arm and then complain that the bear bit your arm off.

Yes, how dare she go to her mother's funeral. The nerve of her.

You so wrong you haven't even seen right.

When the Catholic Church offers communion and you are an Atheist/Jew/Muslim/Rasta you are not required to stand up and take it. The Priest would not have been offended or even noticed if she had just sat on her butt. They offer two kinds of communion: (1) open, where Protestants like me are permitted, and (2) closed where only Catholics who are actually, you know, Catholic are permitted. Being Catholic, as opposed to merely calling yourself "Catholic", means you follow the farking rules. So the Priest clearly laid out the rules so that no one would embarrass themselves by standing up when the shouldn't, and she just had to push it.

Funerals are for the living, not the dead. The priest knows this. I don't care what flavour of Christian her mother was when she was alive, making the funeral important to her daughter should have been among the more important thoughts on the priest's mind.

/not catholic
//for good reason

I_Hate_Iowa: They're not going to like you.

What gets forgotten in that, is that having a position about homosexuals is a recent thing, for all denominations. The word homosexual itself only dates to the mid 1800s and while you could find condemnations of sodomy, those were so broad as to be meaningless. Plus the Catholic church never really did care about sex much in the old days. And despite what some people like to say, Michelangelo didn't hide being gay ever. Hell his sonnets kind of give it away and it wasn't like he never let anyone read them. Hell the church didn't particularly care about all the cardinals who had kids. And it certainly never dared say a word about various nobles and aristocrats screwing everything that moved. And as the church as changed its views once, it can change them again.

Red Shirt Blues: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 357x335]
Could have been worse

Kickin' it Old Testament.

i am sitting this one out

Bathia_Mapes: Baz the Spaz: Tough titties. if she didn't like it, she should have gone down the street to the Methodist church to have the funeral. If she really was born and raised in the Catholic Church, she should have known and accepted the fact that she is not eligible for communion.

FTA..."I've had a very rich and complex relationship with the Catholic church. As an adult, being a lesbian presents conflicts with one's spirituality. I've been fortunate particularly in the last several years - I've received Communion every time I've gone to church," she said.


It would aappear that it's this particular priest, not the Catholic churches she has attended, that has a problem.

She should know better than to go up for communion. She can cross her arms and receive a blessing, but if she is really a practicing Catholic she knows that she is ineligible for communion. I suspect those other churches didn't know.

Which begs the question, why would a lesbian want some boy-raper to stick something in her mouth in the first place...

Red Shirt Blues: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 357x335]
Could have been worse

K. That's not lulzy. Sad now.

Bathia_Mapes: Baz the Spaz: Tough titties. if she didn't like it, she should have gone down the street to the Methodist church to have the funeral. If she really was born and raised in the Catholic Church, she should have known and accepted the fact that she is not eligible for communion.

FTA..."I've had a very rich and complex relationship with the Catholic church. As an adult, being a lesbian presents conflicts with one's spirituality. I've been fortunate particularly in the last several years - I've received Communion every time I've gone to church," she said.


It would aappear that it's this particular priest, not the Catholic churches she has attended, that has a problem.

No, its more that they don't interrogate you before you receive communion. By receiving communion in a state of mortal sin she's endangering her soul. The only thing that her taking communion before means is that she's a bad Catholic.

God-is-a-Taco: You need to look at the context of this passage. In this specific paragraph, "love" means "pineapple" and he doesn't actually mean the soul soul, but the "soul" of rock and roll.

*Snort* nice!

OnlyM3: She got in line knowing it was an issue.

Interestingly the Archdiocese where this took place sees it differently.

Hopefully she'll see mom soon.

Wishing death on her are we?

cman: How dare that Priest stick to his religious beliefs? Who does he think he is?

What belief, cherry-picking? Because he's all fueled up on that "hate the gays" stuff but seems to have left out the part about forgiveness.

I could understand denying her communion. It's the other asshattery, like trying to stop the daughter from delivering the eulogy and generally attention whoring the whole "you're a sinner" thing, that crosses the line.

This kind of behavior is hardly surprising. The church is one of the few places that discrimination is not only tolerated, but expected.

Baz the Spaz: . I suspect those other churches didn't know.

Plenty of Catholic churches let gays and lesbians receive communion.

Jesus Christ it's a lion! Get in the car!: all or nothing guys

We're talking about Christians here, so it's no surprise that these Old Testament examples aren't going to make much of an impression. A lot of Christian Bibles don't even have the OT in them. The general idea is (usually, ymmv) that Jesus came to revise the rules, not to accrete them. Mostly he preached in parables, but he did give some literal rules: the Golden Rule, the "Render unto Caesar" bit, etc. Generally, he preferred to talk about what he liked to see rather than condemn particular behavior.

He made not a peep about homosexuality, prostitution, birth control, abortion, slavery, all of which were common and well-known, so it seems like if he'd had something to say he would have said it. Gay marriage wasn't at all a topic of the day, probably wouldn't have made much sense, so it's no surpise that didn't come up.

Then you have Paul who was obviously obsessed with people's sex lives, and thought that sexual shame would be a good motivator for conversion. Weirdly enough that seems to have worked pretty well.

The Catholic Church is a whole new ball of wax, and they're just crazy about literal rules, very much top down. Anytime I've heard a Catholic preach with a parable, it is *always* followed by an explanation of exactly what it's supposed to mean in a given context. Not something to be contemplated and interpreted.

In this case, according to my understanding of current Catholic law, if Barbara Johnson had had extramarital sexual activity since her last confession, she was in a state of mortal sin and not eligible to receive communion. It's not about being gay, or being a slut, or whatever. It's just, "Is there a mortal sin you haven't confessed to a preist? If so, go to confession first." And Catholicism being what it is, pretty much *anything* sexual counts as a mortal sin. Fapping in the shower? No host for you. Heck, even Jesus said staring at a woman lustfully is a sin. Prude.

Here's the thing, though -- you don't have to confess to the same priest that's handing out the wafer, and there's no barcode scan and centralized database. So unless he saw her fingerbanging somebody on her way up the aisle, he's 100% out of line to presume that she's in a state of mortal sin. He's got to make the rules clear and then give the woman the benefit of the doubt.

drumdaddyjb: so, since I may be the only minister that posts on Fark (from time to time), maybe I should chime in.

I'm not Catholic, so I should get that out of the way first. My particular denomination doesn't impose the kind of hierarchy on me that Catholics have imposed on them. Not saying its more right or wrong, but just some context.

I've probably done over 40 funerals by now, some for people I barely knew, and some for people I loved dearly, including my own grandmother, and I hold to a pretty fast rule for funerals: Funerals are for the family. If the deceased had specific wishes, I honor them at all costs, but otherwise everything I do is to try and help a family grieve in a healthy way and get some kind of closure.

I look at all the times that Jesus meets sinners in the Bible, and I never see Him attack them. He does ask them at times to "sin no more," but only after meeting them with love, grace, and mercy.

So yeah, I would never have made her feel like a second-class citizen at her mother's funeral, and pretty much think any pastor who would should rethink his career. I hear Jiffy-Lube is hiring a lot of folks these days.

Since nobody else has said it -

Thank you for the most insightful post in this thread. Personally I don't believe in a higher power, but when someone dies, the rest of us who are living have some unfinished business, and it seems human to gather and recognize that the person we knew is dead, and to pay tribute to the life they lived. I don't see any other institutions that can really do it, so it seems to fall to churches to perform that task. Thank you for carrying out your responsibilities with sympathy and tact. We who are there to pay our respects to the ones we knew and loved notice and appreciate it.

Fast Thick Pants: So unless he saw her fingerbanging somebody on her way up the aisle,

Do go on...

But what if the Reverend Marcel Guarnizo.at St. John Neumann Catholic Church in Gaithersburg, MD.just doesn't like ugly lesbians?

Oh, he's a priest. Carry on.

The official position of the Catholic Church is that Homosexuality is a sin. If she was determined to have the funeral in a church setting, she could have done some research and found some denominations that are more accepting of her life style. Or, she could have not gotten in line for communion. The priest is not at fault here, she is.

Just when you thought diddling boys was so bad, they go and top themselves.
/but seriously, both are scaring to the core equally.

OnlyM3: Bathia_Mapes

>>> WTF Indeed: What did she expect? That's like walking up to
>>> bear with a steak tied to your arm and then complain that
>>> the bear bit your arm off.

As the article said, if there was an issue with her receiving communion, that was something that was supposed to be dealt with in private, not in public as this priest did.
How dare a religious leader follow the non-violent teachings of his faith. o.O

She got in line knowing it was an issue.
Fark her.

To handle it "in private", the priest would still have had to tell her NO in line. No change in the situation. She's an attention whore, nothing more. Hopefully she'll see mom soon.

Wishing death on a woman because she didn't appreciate what a bigoted priest did to her at her mother's funeral. Damn, dude, were you born a hateful psychotic asshole, or did you suffer some extreme trauma at the hands of a woman with a dead mother?

So does that mean I can convert to Judaism and skip the circumcision?

Why would you want to participate in the religious rituals of an orthodox religion if you don't want to follow their rules?

Would you join the Shriners and then biatch when they wouldn't let you drive your Hummer in the parade?

The usual Catholic/religion hate in the thread aside, here's my problem with this particular incident (and public communion-denying in general) - speaking as a Catholic.

IMHO, the act of taking communion is an intensely personal experience, and the burden is on the individual to examine their own conscience before participating in the sacrament. If one is not in a state of grace, one should not take the sacrament. When priests take it upon themselves to determine who is in a state of grace, it opens up a floodgate of troubles. This woman may not be in a state of grace according to the Church because of sexual actions - BUT I can *guarantee* you there were others in the communion line who were also not in a state of grace for similar or other sins -- and the priest probably still gave them communion. In other words, this was an opportunity for the priest to cherry-pick this woman out of the whole assembly and lay the law down on her, but let everyone else slide. (AND it was at her mother's funeral, which demonstrates insensitivity on a level I can't begin to imagine.)

The point is that priests should not be holding inquisitions for each communion recipient to determine their eligibility to receive on that particular occasion. This woman is a responsible Catholic, she knows the teachings, and she's making the decision to come forward herself. So be it - the Church doesn't know and cannot know the full extent of her relationship with God, and it is to God that all of us are ultimately accountable.

Publicly denying communion should be reserved for only the most egregious and public departures from the faith. If a person has acted in such a capacity as to totally sever their connection with the Church, I get denying communion. But if we want to start splitting hairs and publicly denying people because they have sinned (and therefore aren't in a state of grace), we've got to start denying whole congregations, because most people don't go to confession before they receive.

tl;dr: Priest is enforcing a double standard and is not emulating Christ or providing the pastoral care his office requires. The Archdiocese is right and correct to apologize, and I'm glad they did so.

From the sound of it, some people would've lost their minds several years back when Cardinal Bernadin here in Chicago invited the Episcopalian bishop of Chicago, the Greek Orthodox patriarch and one of the most well regarded rabbis in the city to come to Holy Name Cathedral for a service. And then the same foursome made their way to each one's usual place of worship to repeat it. And it wasn't just a little prayer thing, it was a full service. So yes the Cardinal was basically doing mass in an Episcopal cathedral, an Orthodox church and a synagogue.

Nuclear Monk: Keizer_Ghidorah: Jesus said these things, so they must be true and correct

And if Jesus said that the only way into heaven was to eat still-living infants while their parents were forced to watch and then smother yourself in the bodies of those you ritually sacrificed until you died of suffocation, would you say that's true and correct?

He also said some things about not eating sea creatures, not wearing a blend of fabrics, and to force people to become Christians or slaughter them in his Father's name and take all they own. Come on, all ye faithful, chop chop.

I happen to think his views on polyester were spot on.

Hey, not all polyester is evil. If you find a well-made blend, it's pretty comfortable.

I assume this is another thread where non-Catholics tell Catholics what Catholics should believe and get all upset when they follow rules that non-Catholics disagree with.

/not Catholic. Don't necessarily agree that homosexuality is a sin. Don't have a problem with any denomination setting its own rules and willing to mind my own damned business when they do.

Livingroom: RexTalionis: The funny thing, of course, is that the Bible doesn't say a single thing about lesbianism whatsoever.

hmm, here it is in virtually every bible around:

http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm

Try again. Every single translation on the provided link is "Men" and "Males"

Fast Thick Pants: Here's the thing, though -- you don't have to confess to the same priest that's handing out the wafer, and there's no barcode scan and centralized database. So unless he saw her fingerbanging somebody on her way up the aisle, he's 100% out of line to presume that she's in a state of mortal sin. He's got to make the rules clear and then give the woman the benefit of the doubt.

Also, this.

whippersnapper: tl;dr: Priest is enforcing a double standard and is not emulating Christ or providing the pastoral care his office requires. The Archdiocese is right and correct to apologize, and I'm glad they did so.

The priest would have been enforcing a double standard if he had allowed her to partake of communion. It sounds like he was a dick to her, but I don't blame him for denying her communion. He should have turned her down in a more understanding way.

"I'm a Catholic. I'm deeply influenced by eastern religion philosophy and the nonviolence of Gandhi and the Dalai Lama along with my church upbringing." usually screams "spiritual but not religious," which is always problematic in a church with as much dogma as Catholicism. It's usually a rules-don't-apply-to-me attitude.

Understandable when your life is incompatible with the rules for no good reason. And the priest sounds like a moron. But both attitudes are big problems in the church right now.

If we're playing by the "rules" here, she shouldn't have taken it in the first place because it sounds like she's not practicing. But the bigger responsibility was on him to be pastoral, and he failed.

CanisNoir: whippersnapper: tl;dr: Priest is enforcing a double standard and is not emulating Christ or providing the pastoral care his office requires. The Archdiocese is right and correct to apologize, and I'm glad they did so.

The priest would have been enforcing a double standard if he had allowed her to partake of communion. It sounds like he was a dick to her, but I don't blame him for denying her communion. He should have turned her down in a more understanding way.

Totally disagree. He can't presume to know the state of her soul. He can advise her of the rules, but as long as she's not out publicly forswearing her faith, he's out of line.

Priests are not "enforcers," nor should they be. The last time the Church got involved in that business, it justified doing terrible things to people.

kim jong-un: So does that mean I can convert to Judaism and skip the circumcision?

If you have any of the various conditions that impedes clotting, you sure can. And I'm sure there would be other medical conditions for which a rabbi would make an exception.

Fast Thick Pants: In this case, according to my understanding of current Catholic law, if Barbara Johnson had had extramarital sexual activity since her last confession, she was in a state of mortal sin and not eligible to receive communion. It's not about being gay, or being a slut, or whatever. It's just, "Is there a mortal sin you haven't confessed to a preist? If so, go to confession first." And Catholicism being what it is, pretty much *anything* sexual counts as a mortal sin. Fapping in the shower? No host for you. Heck, even Jesus said staring at a woman lustfully is a sin. Prude.

Here's the thing, though -- you don't have to confess to the same priest that's handing out the wafer, and there's no barcode scan and centralized database. So unless he saw her fingerbanging somebody on her way up the aisle, he's 100% out of line to presume that she's in a state of mortal sin. He's got to make the rules clear and then give the woman the benefit of the doubt.


I'll buy that argument.

whippersnapper: Totally disagree. He can't presume to know the state of her soul. He can advise her of the rules, but as long as she's not out publicly forswearing her faith, he's out of line.

She was there with her Lesbian partner, so there was no question about her state of her soul.

frenchcheesemuseum: HAH you sound like a typical Christian, full of fire and brimstone and hatred.

I never took you for a misguided bigot, guess I was wrong.