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(Yahoo)   Feds raid 61 Wal-Marts and arrest 300 illegal workers. Operation Rollback, indeed   (story.news.yahoo.com ) divider line
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6532 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Oct 2003 at 2:17 PM (12 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-10-23 04:00:13 PM  
Gosh, thewah, does that mean thieves that break into your house are "undocumented residents"?
 
2003-10-23 04:00:58 PM  
Faber -- I doubt being a Mexican restaurant qualifies as just cause... and such selective raiding would open it up to charges of racial bigotry.
 
2003-10-23 04:04:50 PM  
"Oh yes they pay taxes. They pay payroll taxes (usually with a false SSN), and they pay sales taxes to live, and if they are in a apartment, they indirectly pay property taxes."

Uh, hate to burst your bubble on this, (not really) but:

Illegal Immigrants DO NOT PAY TAXES. They pay sales tax, thats about it. Property Taxes? How many illegal immigrants do you think own their own apartment?

In California (Aztlan in about 5 years) we currently have 2 million illegal immigrants.

Lets start from the beginning here.

1. No income tax -they are paid under the table, or, the ones that are paid with some level of legitimacy are using bogus SS Id #s. They usually have more than 2 children (average is 4) and claim enough on their tax returns (when they file them) to recieve money back from the US Gov't.

THIS IS MONEY THAT THEY DIDNT EVEN PAY IN!

2. Their kids goto school, right? Okay, well, lets see, we have to hire teachers who are now bilingual, and this is a fun trend that is happening, the teachers are helping the kids who are English Second Language more because the parents arent going to help at home as much because they cant read the english material to help them. The other kids get ignored or passed over.

3. Okay, so now they are out of school, and want a college education. Not a problem, if you are here ILLEGALLY, (not undocumented Bustamante, the word is ILLEGAL as in you broke the law to come here) not a problem, you dont have to pay out of state tuition fees, you dont have to pay in state tuition fees, you pay NOTHING! Its free, well free to people who broke the law to be here, because someone is paying for it. (you and me)

In a Wal Street Journal article written about 2 weeks ago, they discussed a city in central California (Concord I think, but could be wrong) This city is busting at the seems. People are coming to this area for the labor jobs (season work permits) and staying permanently and illegally. Now, there isnt work to do year round, so the people interviewed were living in this 2 bedroom apartment with their 4 kids, and another whole family. (I think there were around 10 + people in this 2 bedroom apt)

The city is now bankrupt.. the local high school is set up for 400 kids to attend. There are over 1200. This is just the beginning. Their parents are here illegally, but if they have children in this country, they are elligble for assistance. That means we pay for: Pre-Natal Healthcare, the birth of the child, food for the child, healthcare for the child, education for the child, and college for the child.

This is all legal right now to do (except for them being here)

They dont pay taxes when you really look at what they get versus what they pay out, and its getting worse and its heading your way.
 
2003-10-23 04:06:28 PM  
So what's with businesses hiring contractors for cleaning anyway? Give the low bidder, nay day laborers hired by your low bidder, keys to your facility to be there when no one else is around? I wonder how much "shoplifting" loss those Wal-Marts experience?

If I had a buisiness facility, I'd make cleanup part of the daily routine for anybody involved *making* a mess (including office workers taking their own trash to a dumpster or intermediate) and use a trusted, qualified person, maybe even one or more FTE if the facility is big enough, for major cleaning as needed. I'd also not combine it with maintenance duties; fixing windows etc. is a completely different skill set from mopping floors and emptying trash.
 
2003-10-23 04:07:10 PM  
At the present time, they haul them in, run them through the mill and have them back on the street in two hours; call it a long lunch.

They are supposed to show up for a hearing 3 to 6 months later, but---surprise, surprise!-- 97% never show, and nothing can be done about it.

Is this a great country or what???

Guess it must be an or-what, I have seen many great countries and they all had their sh*t organized better than here.
 
2003-10-23 04:11:31 PM  
[image from images.ucomics.com too old to be available]
 
2003-10-23 04:14:26 PM  
Asprin: "BTW, if you read the article, the immigrants in question were from Eastern Europe, not South America."

So where are they from if I didn't read the article?

grammar pet peeve.
 
2003-10-23 04:15:43 PM  
MovieQuoter:
Illegal Immigrants DO NOT PAY TAXES. They pay sales tax, thats about it. Property Taxes? How many illegal immigrants do you think own their own apartment?

Man, I wish you I could of rented an apartment from you. I mean, all the places I know added the property tax into their rent payments. So I was paying the rent and the property tax. But you, you're a great guy and pay that tax all by yourself. That's really great. If only there were more people like you.
 
2003-10-23 04:18:23 PM  
MovieQuoter

1. There may be some under the table, but not at all jobs. Also, if they are using fake SSN's, then that amount is taken out every 2 weeks or so (like everyone). They pay X in and get X+Y back (with your credits). So, those still PAY taxes, even tough you have problems with what is returned.

2 and 3 are CA related, not to be applied to all parts of the country.

As for property taxes, it is part of your RENT. The landlord has property taxes as part of his total costs. The Rent payments go towards property taxes through the landlord.

Do you know why they are staying? Two reasons, one is the dangerous crossing. But the most important one is NAFTA. Our farm policies are driving Mexicans off the farms, and they come north for work to send money back home to take care of their families. Want to reduce that problem, get NAFTA cancelled. (see Dennis Kucinich's platform)
 
2003-10-23 04:19:30 PM  
This is why we have unions. AFLCIO should organize WalMart asap.

Right wing response imminent...Liberals duck & cover!
 
2003-10-23 04:21:41 PM  
Also, for education, many chidren of "illegals" are in fact legal US citizens. Many are born here.

Becides, better education is never bad. As they end up giving back more to society over their lifetime.
 
2003-10-23 04:23:49 PM  
This crafty Illegal alien thought he could hide by painting himself white and hiding behind a Halloween mask:

[image from adtcomedy.com too old to be available]
 
2003-10-23 04:25:28 PM  
Kneal before ZOD my Green Card.
 
2003-10-23 04:30:25 PM  
My only problem here is that they arrested the 'abused' workers and not the money hungry executives that are the real criminals here.
 
2003-10-23 04:41:42 PM  
HA welcome to our world! Canada has this problem too.

My buddy has been trying to get into the fire dept for like 4 years now and they wont hire him because he is white. they only hired women and minorities even though they werent as qualified. If they dont get the job the use the racist trump card. That burnes me up so much . Canada has never been horribly racist to any culture or enlsaved anyone. Aside the Irish they had a rough time. We have a Generation , of university and buisness degree men and women out there getting passed over by Unqualified Mirnorities. I am not learning Somalian, Ukrainian, or any Asian language! Yes they are nice languages but i Already Speak english, french and some german.

COME ON PEOPLE MEET US HALF WAY HERE!

my buddy still isnt in and they have just stared to repeal that god awful Fire Man qualification...Thank god

Im all for equal rights but i also beleive that you have to know what your doing. Failure doesnt mean you get the job and trust me its happened here.
 
2003-10-23 04:49:59 PM  
Walmarts official statement:

"What's that you guys? I can't hear the criticism over all of these cash registers ringing in money! Speak up! Too much money still rolling in...!"

 
2003-10-23 04:54:21 PM  
Three things for the seal-the-border crowd -
1. Come down to the US-Mexico border. Just get an overview of one percent of it. It's a long, vast, unforgiving area. Look at it, and look at the logistics involved, and tell me exactly how we're supposed to seal it. Then go to the Canadian border. Lather, rinse, repeat.
2. You propose putting illegal immigrants in custody. How do you propose to do this? Prisons are already severely overcrowded, and the money to build new ones is getting harder and harder to find. To detain immigrants for more than a few hours you would need hundreds of thousands of prison beds - along with the necessary staff such as guards - er, sorry, corrections officers and such.
3. Sealing the border wouldn't solve very many immigration related problems. They're too far deep seated for a simple solution.
This isn't flamebait. I live in Tucson, AZ, which is a major hotbed of illegal immigration activity, so I'm not going to shut my eyes and say there's no problem. There's a HUGE problem. But there's a lot of practical problems (see above) with a feel-good soundbite idea like sealing the border.
 
2003-10-23 05:01:39 PM  
Sir_Spanksalot:

If your buddy is anything like you, maybe the problem isn't all those damn "minorities," but the fact that you can't string a complete, gramatically correct sentence together to save your soul.
 
2003-10-23 05:04:18 PM  
I live in Florida and the Walmart here hires Hispanic workers for the cleaning crew that -- amazingly -- don't seem to speak English. There is one girl working with them who seems to be the translator. I shop frequently at late night, like 2 or 3 in the morning, and often feel sorry for the regular employees of that shift because the cleaners use propane powered machines that are often noisy -- like a lawn mower -- and stink of exhaust. A couple of times, I could hardly stand it in there because of the exhaust fumes! Just think of the workers who had to stay in there 8 hours!

I complained to the Walmart HQ but nothing much was done for a long time. Then, the crews either tuned up their machines to keep the carbon dioxide down some or Walmart increased their ventilation, but they were still a real pain. I mean, what brainy person decided to use internal combustion engines in a closed environment where people are 'trapped' for hours?
 
2003-10-23 05:14:41 PM  
do something about it... if current trends continue it will only get worse, and our government is not helping.

http://www.numbersusa.com
 
2003-10-23 05:25:00 PM  
Also, for education, many chidren of "illegals" are in fact legal US citizens. Many are born here.

Becides, better education is never bad. As they end up giving back more to society over their lifetime.

Okay, sure, education is good, great, fine. BUT! Who do we educate? Think about this. Right now the border is a joke. As was posted previously the border patrol has been told when and where they can and cant ask someone if they are here illegally.

With this never ending stream of people coming here, this equates directly to an ever increasing amount of kids that we have to educate.

WE CANT AFFORD THIS! California is in bankruptcy right now partially due to all the social benefits and problems that come as a result of our non-existant border.

Where do we draw the line? Because if you tell the rest of central and south America that they can live nearly free in the United States as long as you have kids, and that all your kids will get a free education, dont you think TONS will come here just for that?
 
2003-10-23 05:29:55 PM  
do something about it... if current trends continue it will only get worse, and our government is not helping.

http://www.numbersusa.com
 
2003-10-23 05:32:21 PM  
Legal Immigrants: Welcome them. Help them. Get them on a path to citizenship.

Illegal Immigrants: Arrest them. Deport them. (this keeps them out of prison) Fine the fark out of those who hire them.

I have nothing against immigrants. The United States is a nation of immigrants. In fact, I think it should be easier to immigrate to this country legally from most countries. But you have to draw the line somewhere. Come to America - but please sign the guestbook when you come in.
 
2003-10-23 05:39:07 PM  
Census 2000 results indicate that there between 8 and 11 million illegal aliens living in the United States in 2000. The Center for Immigration Studies has reported that Census Bureau stats show that 700,000 to 800,000 new illegal aliens were settling in the U.S. during the late 1990s and that around 1 million settled in the most recent year of record. Far more than that enter illegally each year, but there is a lot of back and forth. The 1 million represents illegals who truly settle in for at least a couple of years, and usually much, much longer.

an amnesty and path to U.S. citizenship for all illegal aliens now in this country;
(Bush was considering this before 9-11)

a process by which a new amnesty is constantly being provided so that future illegal aliens will always be "in process to access permanent residency;"

the end to sanctions against hiring illegal aliens so that they will have full access to all U.S. jobs;
(Well, businesses that hire illegals arent being penalized, they got this one)

"demilitarization of the U.S.-Mexico border;"


drivers licenses for all illegal aliens;
(California Senate Bill 60 was signed Sept 5th)

in-state tuition for illegal aliens at state universities.
(Already a Law introduced by MECHA member Cruz Bustamante)

Out of these 6 stated and published goals, 3 are already signed laws in the State of California, with Bush's probably going back to "another amnesty program" before his re-election bid.
 
2003-10-23 05:43:02 PM  
Oh, and for the "lets educate everyone because its a good thing" Well, these numbers speak for themselves.


State budgets are funding illegal immigration at the expense of schools and their students," says FAIR's Dan Stein. "In a time of fiscal crisis, states cannot afford to bankroll the federal government's unwillingness to enforce immigration laws."

Providing K-12 Education to Illegal Immigrants: Costs to States

In California, the $2.2 billion spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could buy books, computers, and other instructional equipment for 346,689 classrooms, 79 percent of all the classrooms in California, and fully fund the state's free lunch program for poor students for almost two years.

In Texas, the $1 billion spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could provide health insurance to every child in Texas for three and a half years. State budget cuts are expected to trim tens of thousands from the Children's Health Insurance Program, and 22 percent of Texas's children already lack health insurance, the highest percentage in the nation.

In New York, the $756 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could put a computer on the desk of every high school student in the state.

In Illinois, the $484 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could eliminate the need to cut $38 million from the state's financial aid program by denying financial aid to 34,000 college students and grant aid to an additional 399,120 students.

In New Jersey, the $359 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could expand pre-school enrollment by 23,652 children, which would allow the state to achieve its court-mandated pre-school enrollment in poor school districts.

In Florida, the $309 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could eliminate the need to cut $120 million from K-12 schools, with $190 million to spare.

In Georgia, the $231 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could eliminate the need to cut $14 million from the state school budget and $35 million from the state university system, with $181 million to spare.

In North Carolina, the $196 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could cover the cost of textbooks for all schools in the state for two years.

In Arizona, the $187 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could eliminate the need to raise in-state tuition by $1,000 a year in the state university system, with $150 million to spare.

In Colorado, the $141 million spent educating illegal immigrants for one year could buy books, computers, and other instructional materials for every K-12 student in the state.

http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1270&c=54
 
2003-10-23 05:47:04 PM  
About 3 yrs. ago I applied for a job at Walmart. When they called me back a week later i assumed they were going to tell me when i could start. Wrong! After sitting with some broad for 45 min. she explained that would do a background check,and call me back in for a second interview with her mgr.,when i would have to give a urine sample. After everyone and everything checked out,i would be called in again for a 3rd interview with human resourses and take a training course for a few hrs. This was stocking shelves during closing hours. C.I.A agents dont go through this much bullshiat. the hell with them
 
2003-10-23 05:47:39 PM  
Again for clarification: There is no longer any entity known as the INS http://www.ins.gov

It is now the BCIS.
 
2003-10-23 06:07:06 PM  
Farms are the worst. Down south it is pretty common for the supervisor/overseer to confiscate legitimate green cards and forms of ID while workers on the place. If the workers give them too much trouble they threaten them with deportation. Hasta La Vista.

Another, less popular, farm scam is to take out life insurance on old, sick, legal workers and do whatever they can to keep them from getting decent medical treatment. You can take out life insurance on employees.
 
2003-10-23 06:07:49 PM  
I swear I've never seen a forum where the false word "becides" is used oh so eloquently.
 
2003-10-23 06:09:18 PM  
Interesting enough, wal-mart went out of its way to get rid of the regular maintenance crews to hire the outside help because it was cheaper. Now its nonexistant.
 
2003-10-23 06:16:15 PM  
This book has a pretty good section about working at WalMart.

We are losing ground in this country not because we aren't working hard enough but because an honest day's work doens't get an honest day's pay any more.
 
2003-10-23 06:27:56 PM  
try immigrating to the us legally sometime and you'll understand why there is so many illegal aliens. fix the ins.
 
th
2003-10-23 06:32:34 PM  
agricultural work is horrible for illegal immigrants. since they don't qualify for any of the US worker's standards, they are usually paid by the pound, not hour, and live in conditions that in many cases rival the worst conditions in third world countries. and because they don't want to risk deportataion, they say nothing. all to try to make life better for them, or at least create opportunity for their children. the united state gov't is happy to ignore these blantant violations of human rights because our economy is built off the backs of these workers. the occasional raid, like the one seen today, is just to keep them fearful. i find it disgusting that in a country that claims to uphold the rights of all people, and be on a mission to "liberate" certain countries from "evil," that we allow this evil to prevail on our own land. these are people we are talking about, not abstractions. give them citizenship, and give them basic human rights.
 
2003-10-23 06:37:21 PM  
Oh, and I stand corrected on the property tax, duh, I should have thought that through better.


undflickertail

1. There may be some under the table, but not at all jobs.

Uh, as more and more people come into this country and compete for more and more jobs driving the hourly wage rate down for unskilled labor, more and more jobs become under the table, "no taxes being paid", jobs. They do this to compete with all the other companies that have already done this..Drive by a Home Depot or OSH in the mornings on weekdays, in many places there are people just standing there waiting for a days work. These people are not paying anything, their companies are not paying anything and together they drive down the hourly rate, and drive out the legally operating companies that pay taxes, epa, osha, workmans comp insurance, SS, State and Federal Taxes and everything else. They cant compete, so they leave.

"Also, if they are using fake SSN's, then that amount is taken out every 2 weeks or so (like everyone). They pay X in and get X+Y back (with your credits). So, those still PAY taxes, even tough you have problems with what is returned."

IF YOU PAY NOTHING INTO THE SYSTEM YOU SHOULD NOT GET ANYTHING BACK.

Why is this tough to understand? Also, when you claim 12 deductions, and you earn 12,000 a year, or less than 25,000 a year, how much money do you think comes out of their checks? Do you think it even approaches the cost of the benefits they receive?

"2 and 3 are CA related, not to be applied to all parts of the country."

Yes, you are right, BUT, just like the Mexican/California border didnt mean anything, so will the Nevada/California border as well and the next state and the next. Las Vegas Schools are beginning to have most of the same problems that the California schools started to experience in the 90's during the boom. This is not going to stay in California, and before you know it, it will be everyones problem.

Oh, and I checked Kucinich's ideas on this, you can immediately tell what someone thinks when they start using the word "Undocumented" like they lost their Visa or something. The word is illegal. You broke the law, you cut in front of someone else who was willing to obide by our laws and come here legally.

Next: Kucinich says on his web page "the Bush administration has waged an assault on immigrants' rights.

What rights? You shouldnt be here?!

Undocumented workers have been left in legal limbo, while local police forces have been pressured against their will to hunt down undocumented workers, jeopardizing their relationships with immigrant communities. Thousands of immigrants have been detained in secret, denied due process and deported."

Well, how about the obvious one. If you are here illegally, why is it wrong to make you go back where you came from? Also, what agency thinks that massive illegal immigration is a good thing? This is against their will? Who thinks this? Is it the FBI who reported last year that Middle Eastern people are flying into Mexico City and paying coyotes to sneak them into the US? If you were Saddam or Bin Laden wouldnt that be a good way to get your next Al Queda cell into this country?

Oh, and they are hunting down undocumented workers? What the heck? He is saying that BCIS (INS) agents dont want to enforce the laws of the US? Well, you are in the wrong damn agency then buddy because that is exactly what the agency is supposed to to.
 
2003-10-23 06:45:07 PM  
Christ, they need to come investigate some of the Wal-Marts in CO. While they're at it check those K-Marts too. Those stores will be pretty much down to like 4-5 workers.
 
2003-10-23 06:49:09 PM  
Th

"agricultural work is horrible for illegal immigrants. "

Hey, if this is horrible, dont come here! Second, how does the rest of the United States that doesnt have all this quasi-slave labor at its disposal pick its fruit? How does anyones lawns get mowed in places that dont share a border with Mexico.

The reason why conditions are terrible is because the employers know that there is 100 more illegal immigrants waiting for that job. They are creating their own problem/condition and blaming a country they are in illegally for it!


"all to try to make life better for them, or at least create opportunity for their children. the united state gov't is happy to ignore these blantant violations of human rights because our economy is built off the backs of these workers."

Yes, and I agree, somewhat, I applaud their efforts to make their childrens lives better, but you cant do that by stealing it (by which I mean coming here illegally) if you want to make your childrens lives better, come here legally and respect the laws and borders.

This is not slavery, this is not human rights violations. If you come here and accept that job, and you shouldnt be here, and that job is there because you and so many others like you are willing to accept these less than human conditions, you are the reson you are in this situation.


i find it disgusting that in a country that claims to uphold the rights of all people, and be on a mission to "liberate" certain countries from "evil," that we allow this evil to prevail on our own land.

Uh, we went to Mogadishu where starving and civil war is a past time for people just like this. America is the only country that always sends food and aid and billions of dollars to Africa right now because the whole continent is going to be wiped out due to AIDS. We do more than our fair share for this whole planet, and we get blamed for every wrong thing ever.

If you think we are terrible here, why dont you take a good look at China right now, where over 100,000 women have committed suicide last year by drinking farm pesticides because conditions are so terrible.
 
2003-10-23 06:51:57 PM  
I summon further burnination upon Wal-Mart. I can't wait to see abandoned hulks of former super-mega-discount stores turned into skateparks or suchlike. Please excuse my loquacious verbosity.
 
th
2003-10-23 07:02:26 PM  
moviequoter-
i live in washington state, which is a good distance from the mexican border. these conditions exist here. our fruit is picked by the mexicans, and our lawns are mowed by them as well.
i agree that it is not slavery, but that doesn't mean that someone has to put up with inhumane working conditions. i don't think it is terrible here, but luckily i am white, and my ancestors came over from the blonde countries at a time when immigration was relatively easy. my life is highly privledged as a result, and i am from a low-income family. i think if you were a mexican trying to get a better life, your perception would differ greatly.

and just for the record, less than 1% of our gnp goes to foreign aid, whereas some of the scandanavian countries give far more. our influence and impact on the world places us in a position of responsibility, and right now we are abusing our power. the blame we get for world problems is often unreasonable, and is a product of propoganda in certain countries, but many times it is a valid reflection of our destructive foreign policies.

ok, one last thing before i shut up. the conditions in china are bad. the conditions in mexico are bad as well. the conditions in the united states are very good comparatively. who are we to tell these people who want to escape these conditions that they can't come here? the united states is built on the ideals of progress and improvement of one's life. do these ideals only apply to citizens?
 
2003-10-23 07:02:33 PM  
Patrol the border with apaches. The helicopters, not the injuns.
 
2003-10-23 07:14:40 PM  
th
...
these are people we are talking about, not abstractions. give them citizenship, and give them basic human rights.


sure, lets let everyone who wants in be a citizen. there's plenty of space and we can create high-paying jobs for them, no problem. ...what are you smoking out there in Washington state?

its bad enough that our population has grown more than 90 million since 1970 (U.S. Bureau of the Census), that kind of policy would cripple us with overcrowding/overpopulation.

To find similar population growth in foreign countries, we must look to the Third World. Although our frontiers were declared closed a century ago, the United States today is adding population at a numerical level just under the phenomenal Baby Boom, which far exceeded all other periods of U.S. population growth.

Is this what you want?

[image from numbersusa.com too old to be available]


Help put a stop to it:
http://www.numbersusa.com
 
2003-10-23 07:21:15 PM  
th
...
these are people we are talking about, not abstractions. give them citizenship, and give them basic human rights.


sure, lets let everyone who wants in be a citizen. there's plenty of space and we can create high-paying jobs for them, no problem. ...what are you smoking out there in Washington state?

its bad enough that our population has grown more than 90 million since 1970 (U.S. Bureau of the Census), that kind of policy would cripple us with overcrowding/overpopulation.

To find similar population growth in foreign countries, we must look to the Third World. Although our frontiers were declared closed a century ago, the United States today is adding population at a numerical level just under the phenomenal Baby Boom, which far exceeded all other periods of U.S. population growth.

Is this what you want?

[image from numbersusa.com too old to be available]


Help put a stop to it:
http://www.numbersusa.com
 
th
2003-10-23 07:24:45 PM  
what's wrong with a population boom? it's not like we don't have the resources and land to support that many people. maybe if we had different priorities, like human rights rather than star wars devices, the world wouldn't hate us and people living within our borders could enjoy a higher quality of life. however, this is a highly idealistic view of international relations and domestic policies, and the realist view always wins. but look where the realists have gotten us. ::sigh:: this is an age old battle which i'm sure won't be solved on a fark thread....
 
2003-10-23 07:30:13 PM  
sorry, this "preview before post" thing must not work correctly with Opera 7.21 browser, as it always posts twice.

th
the conditions in mexico are bad as well. the conditions in the united states are very good comparatively. who are we to tell these people who want to escape these conditions that they can't come here?

you're joking right? we are the citizens and gov't of this sovereign country, and we are not telling them they cannot come here, just that they have to go by the rules. sure its going to keep many of them out, but thats life. I'm sorry there is no Utopia and we cannot be the promised land for all people of the world, it just doesn't work like that.

the united states is built on the ideals of progress and improvement of one's life. do these ideals only apply to citizens?

in reality, yes. we cannot control other countries' policies and the way they treat their citizens. and we cannot open our borders to everyone that has a worse life because they happen to live under a dictatorship or socialism, or whatever.
 
2003-10-23 07:31:57 PM  
Good freakin' lord ...

Let me tell you about illegal immigrants. The ones who irk me the most aren't the Mexicans. Oh no, they work hard for the little they get. I may not like them being in the USA illegally but they have a hard life and at least try.

Oh no. The illegal immigrants I absolutely HATE are these damned Ukranians. They come here illegally, they suck up to the government teat and they lie, cheat, steal and are basically criminals. When I go to beg for food at the Catholic church I'm the only person without a car and am the only person who doesn't lie. There's one adult and one cat in my household. But the Ukranians? Each one has ten adults and fifty kids or some crap. They pretend they're not members of the same household so they can get more food. They literally clear out the food closet. If I don't show up early there is nothing left, not one thing. They're freakin' animals and selfish and evil and worthless. I freakin' hate Ukranians, Stalin should have killed them all.

Try living my life, you'll feel the same way. They show up to beg for food in brand new Mercedes for crying out loud. Yep, you bought them that Mercedes too, and the Ukranians just love your tax dollars. Why do we even allow them here? They're supposedly escaping oppresion as refugees. Um, excuse me, isn't the Cold War over? Hello, am I missing something? Haitians can't come here for economic reasons but white scum from the Ukraine can? What the fark!?

It makes me so mad to see those arseholes living a better life than anyone I know who was born in the USA, all on the government dole, never working and not once giving anything beneficial back to the nation that's keeping them alive with kindness they do not deserve.

I guess I'm a racist. So what? I also know I'm right as rain. Just once deal with Ukranians. You'll start fingering the ammo too.
 
2003-10-23 07:33:38 PM  
"i agree that it is not slavery, but that doesn't mean that someone has to put up with inhumane working conditions. i don't think it is terrible here, but luckily i am white, and my ancestors came over from the blonde countries at a time when immigration was relatively easy. my life is highly privledged as a result, and i am from a low-income family. i think if you were a mexican trying to get a better life, your perception would differ greatly."

Yes, but your ancestors came here LEGALLY, and when they did, they probably didnt whine about the terrible conditions. Oh, and what you are telling me is that the only way every state in the Union gets anything menial done is by illegal aliens? What about kids mowing lawns? Does that even exist anymore? You know like for an allowance? You cant sell me this line that "they are only doing jobs that we wouldnt do" because we used to do them, and in the places where there arent illegal aliens someone has to do the job too. Oh, and the "inhumane conditions" are inhumane because you are easily replaceable! Think about it, in China there is very little value on a single persons life because there are a billion people. If you and your family and your extended family and their extended families all emmigrate to this country, and are all competing for the same jobs, why are you of any value over anyone else who comes from where you came from?

The conditions are like this because there is an uninterrupted stream of replacements available to your boss, and that is not my fault, that is your bosses fault and your fellow illegal immigrant.


"the united states is built on the ideals of progress and improvement of one's life. do these ideals only apply to citizens?"

Do these ideals apply to the whole world? Can we afford this? How about just anyone who wants to come here? Can we afford that? South and Central America? Can we afford that? When and where do we draw the line? What is the point of having the border and laws if we are going to ignore them because they are only doing what we would do if we were in that situation?

We cant solve everyones problems for them. Oh, and these countries cannot ship their problems to the United States. That wont solve anything for them either. Mexico is no better off today that it was 10 years ago when they had 2 million of their people that currently live here.

"less than 1% of our gnp goes to foreign aid, whereas some of the scandanavian countries give far more. "

Okay, if thats true (I dont have a clue really) that is awesome, but dang if I have ever heard of any Scandanavian country putting its neck on the line for anything? I mean, when was the last time anyone saw brave and noble Sweden, or Norway, or Denmark leading an international peace keeping force? Were they in Kosovo trying to get the people to stop ethnically cleansing each others villages? Perhaps I am wrong, or the proportions are out of whack, but I havent seen this. But okay.
 
2003-10-23 07:37:18 PM  
th

what's wrong with a population boom? it's not like we don't have the resources and land to support that many people. maybe if we had different priorities, like human rights rather than star wars devices, the world wouldn't hate us and people living within our borders could enjoy a higher quality of life


I won't totally disagree with you on the priorities, but if you think we have the land and resources to support uncontrolled and unlimited growth to infinity, you are clueless. (sorry) The above graph is just if we stick to our current policies. Sure, we have plenty of open space left, but most people don't want to live in Kansas or N. Dakota, or Alaska for that matter.

And I don't think we should be paving what little is left of our open spaces and clear cutting more forests to support more population growth. and don't you see the effects of urban sprawl where you live? this can't go on forever. you're near Seattle right? no one in Seattle wants any new neighbors moving in.. the traffics bad enough and getting worse.
 
2003-10-23 07:43:34 PM  
th

what's wrong with a population boom? it's not like we don't have the resources and land to support that many people. maybe if we had different priorities, like human rights rather than star wars devices, the world wouldn't hate us and people living within our borders could enjoy a higher quality of life


I won't totally disagree with you on the priorities, but if you think we have the land and resources to support uncontrolled and unlimited growth to infinity, you are clueless. (sorry) The above graph is just if we stick to our current policies. Sure, we have plenty of open space left, but most people don't want to live in Kansas or N. Dakota, or Alaska for that matter.

And I don't think we should be paving what little is left of our open spaces and clear cutting more forests to support more population growth. and don't you see the effects of urban sprawl where you live? this can't go on forever. you're near Seattle right? no one in Seattle wants any new neighbors moving in.. the traffics bad enough and getting worse.
 
th
2003-10-23 07:43:57 PM  
huh, well i was under some impression that all humans are equal and deserve equal rights regardless of nationality. i'm glad the good peoople at the fark have helped me recognize the fallacies in this belief. i know understand that nearly all united states citizens are created equal, along with the few that we allow to join the club. thanks, guys, you've really opeend my eyes.

switches the channel from the bbc to fox news, cancels my "progressive" subscription, and blames the liberal media and clinton for everything
 
2003-10-23 07:55:39 PM  
"huh, well i was under some impression that all humans are equal and deserve equal rights regardless of nationality."

Yes, and that is true, but does that mean we, us, the United States has to pay for all of this? I agree with you totally and support that ideal 100%, but I dont think its fair to just say:

"Because we believe that everyone is created equal, we believe everyone should be able to come to this country whenever they choose"

The Conservatives are just as spineless in this as the Liberals, the libs want the votes and the conservatives want the cheap labor... Both sides are exploiting them, and neither side will improve their conditions here.

My question TH is, "Is there anyone anywhere in any numbers that we cant take into this country" Where do you personally draw the line? Is there a line? If not thats cool, I disagree, but we can do that in this country and not kill one another.
 
th
2003-10-23 08:14:42 PM  
moviequoter-
those are tough questions that i am in no position to offer accurate answers, and it seems no one really has since the beginning of this country. i just think the reality of the situation is farked up- that we have these laws in place not to regulate the number of people coming (i think we can all agree they're not working) but to allow labor practices to continue which are far below international standards so we can save a few cents on our produce and advance our economy. i would rather pay a little bit more if it means someone else can have a fraction of the opportunities i've enjoyed here.

i don't know where the line should be drawn, however i believe if we increase our aid to other countries (which we can afford to do, or could before the alterations to the country's economic policies we've seen in the past three or so years...) there won't be as large of an immigration demand for the US. but i have a real problem telling someone they have to stay in an oppressive dictatorship or in unacceptable conditions, even if it is a strain on our resources. i know if i lived in china, haiti, mexico, or one of the other many countries which do not have good standards of living, i would desperately want the united states to allow me to improve my life.

i know i'm highly idealistic and some of these practices don't work out as well as they sound in the real world, but my conscience will not allow me to waver. but i do respect your opinions, as they are just as valid as my own.
 
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