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(Fox News)   Today's green "success story" is 123 Systems. $390 million in government money has netted $127 million in net losses and 125 laid off employees. On the upside, management got a hefty raise   (foxnews.com) divider line 50
    More: Obvious, U.S. Energy Department, Jennifer Granholm, Mackinac Center, energy industry, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Fisker Automotive  
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1783 clicks; posted to Business » on 27 Feb 2012 at 12:34 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-27 12:40:21 PM
The system works!
 
2012-02-27 12:45:49 PM
Waiting to find out if they were contributors to 0bama like the Solyndra croud.
 
2012-02-27 12:46:26 PM
You don't want to lose your top guys!
 
2012-02-27 12:49:17 PM
i2.listal.com

First, you come up with a green concept that can get government backing.
Second, you pay yourself handsomely while burning through a pile of dough.
Third, you shut down as a flop and take your golden parachute into private equity.
 
2012-02-27 01:10:41 PM
If only there were some way that we as a society can make our views known on corporate executive pay...
 
2012-02-27 01:19:44 PM
Then where is the other penny, Wilkins?


Wilkins?
 
2012-02-27 01:22:01 PM
It's okay. Remember, when government money is spent it goes right into the GDP. They're not wasting money - they are growing the economy!
 
2012-02-27 01:24:01 PM
We shouldn't be funneling our money into private industry to make advances in energy production. We should be funding scientists at research universities. Once they come up with some viable, let private business take it and run. The whole "we would get to Mars if we privatized NASA" argument is a load of garbage. Scientific advancements are made in a lab not by a private company trying to make a bunch of money. Private business will cut its losses long before a scientist with a grant will give up working in his lab.

/my 2 cents
//didn't RTFA, Faux news isn't news at all
 
2012-02-27 01:24:53 PM
We just gave nuclear 35 billion.

*shrug*
 
2012-02-27 01:45:55 PM

Arkanaut: If only there were some way that we as a society can make our views known on corporate executive pay...


If the only problem that you see is "corporate executive pay", you are part of the problem.
 
2012-02-27 01:49:23 PM
Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...
 
2012-02-27 02:04:29 PM

mycatisposter: Arkanaut: If only there were some way that we as a society can make our views known on corporate executive pay...

If the only problem that you see is "corporate executive pay", you are part of the problem.


So I'm part of the problem. Vote my party out. It happens frequently enough.

Now try to vote out the board of the company you're investing in. Not so easy.
 
2012-02-27 02:16:57 PM

Arkanaut: mycatisposter: Arkanaut: If only there were some way that we as a society can make our views known on corporate executive pay...

If the only problem that you see is "corporate executive pay", you are part of the problem.

So I'm part of the problem. Vote my party out. It happens frequently enough.

Now try to vote out the board of the company you're investing in. Not so easy.


At least with a private company, if you're unhappy with management you can pull your money out and invest elsewhere. Even if you have another country who'll take you, giving up your US citizenship takes up to 10 years and at the end of the process the IRS presents you with a big exit bill.
 
2012-02-27 02:18:00 PM

ModernPrimitive01: We shouldn't be funneling our money into private industry to make advances in energy production. We should be funding scientists at research universities. Once they come up with some viable, let private business take it and run. The whole "we would get to Mars if we privatized NASA" argument is a load of garbage. Scientific advancements are made in a lab not by a private company trying to make a bunch of money. Private business will cut its losses long before a scientist with a grant will give up working in his lab.

/my 2 cents
//didn't RTFA, Faux news isn't news at all


Funneling "research" money to a company which already has a direction in which it's going is not research, it's simply a subsidy for whatever it is they're doing. If the government is going to get involved at all, I'd rather see them take either a "pure research", as you mention, and/or an X-Prize approach... "We're going to give $10 billion to whomever can give us an engine which can do A with B constraints".

So I largely agree with what you're saying with the exception of "scientific advancements are not made by a private company trying to make money". There are way too many examples of exactly that, so I'll just use the example of the transistor as being enough to debunk your premise.

WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...


So one bad idea deserves another, right?

If we just stopped subsidizing all of them and let the prices of energy sources reflect something closer to their true costs, we'd be in a better position to realize the relative benefits and direct our attention accordingly. You don't need to subsidize alternatives to oil to make them attractive, just stop subsidizing oil. This includes military spending; it's cheaper to spend $100 per barrel for oil than it is to blow $200 billion in military spending in an attempt to keep oil at $60. And that assumes it works; if anything, recent history shows it to be just as likely that our activities are actually keeping the price higher than it would otherwise be, so we have the privilege of paying twice.
 
2012-02-27 02:20:06 PM

WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...


Lets ignore the oil companies and talk about companies that that the government has backed with loans and what the success rate is. Not just one that failed and somehow come to the conclusion that the system failed.

/not a big fan of government backed loans but it doesn't have it uses
 
2012-02-27 02:21:29 PM

WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...


Oil companies produce something most people can't live without. You know, that black substance which, once refined, moves our cars, trucks, trains, planes etc....etc..... What do companies like Solyndra and A123 systems produce other than.....well....oh never mind.
 
2012-02-27 02:23:24 PM

bravian: WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...

Lets ignore the oil companies and talk about companies that that the government has backed with loans and what the success rate is. Not just one that failed and somehow come to the conclusion that the system failed.

/not a big fan of government backed loans but it doesn't have it uses


Government backed loans are helping open a pair of new nuclear reactors in GA, the first since the 70's. There is one good use of such money.
 
2012-02-27 02:25:59 PM
Bonus? Remember, we always have to take care of the Job CreatorsTM. That is the only thing of importance (that, and analyzing the relative size ofj trees).
 
2012-02-27 02:35:56 PM
Poor butthurtmitter. I know, I know, if you want to conserve, you hate America. If you don't leave your V8 running 24/7, with the AC running, you hate America. If you take a bus or train, or let someone ride with you, you hate America.
 
2012-02-27 02:48:18 PM

ghare: Poor butthurtmitter. I know, I know, if you want to conserve, you hate America. If you don't leave your V8 running 24/7, with the AC running, you hate America. If you take a bus or train, or let someone ride with you, you hate America.


Dumbass leftys like you really believe this.
 
2012-02-27 02:54:08 PM
I don't get it? Is FOX upset that we didn't put restrictions on how they could spend the money? I thought they were pro-capitalism?
 
2012-02-27 02:56:15 PM

The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: bravian: WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...

Lets ignore the oil companies and talk about companies that that the government has backed with loans and what the success rate is. Not just one that failed and somehow come to the conclusion that the system failed.

/not a big fan of government backed loans but it doesn't have it uses

Government backed loans are helping open a pair of new nuclear reactors in GA, the first since the 70's. There is one good use of such money.


Those loans have to be government-backed because no private lender would otherwise take the risk in the case of a nuke plant, between the regulatory uncertainty and a possible shutdown due to some design flaw or emergency. Whereas a solar panel or battery manufacturer should be able to secure non-guaranteed private financing if it has a sound plan and a reasonable expectation of staying in business.
 
2012-02-27 03:24:20 PM
Do you know who else liked battery powered vehicles? Link (new window)
 
2012-02-27 03:24:35 PM
Bonuses are need to keep quality people, don't cha know.
 
2012-02-27 03:56:23 PM
Government is a shiatty venture capitalist.
 
2012-02-27 04:07:35 PM

WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...


Actually... yes there are, several of them.

I like the one where they call out Boehner for taking his word back.

Citation. (new window)

/you're still right about FNC, but I recall them going nuts about the idea that people were paying through the nose while the oil companies were receiving subsidies.
 
2012-02-27 04:14:11 PM

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: If we just stopped subsidizing all of them and let the prices of energy sources reflect something closer to their true costs, we'd be in a better position to realize the relative benefits and direct our attention accordingly. You don't need to subsidize alternatives to oil to make them attractive, just stop subsidizing oil.


Does your 'true cost' metric include pricing externalities (via carbon tax, etc.)?
 
2012-02-27 04:17:36 PM
A123 has considerable IP on the books, and more in the works. They have substantial debt, which is their biggest problem. Most investors are waiting for a buyout from one of the bigger partners who would weigh the value of the IP over the debt. There is also some hesitancy with the election coming up, because no one sees continued investment in anything other than petrochemicals under a Republican administration.

/ Full disclosure: A123 is part of my portfolio.
 
2012-02-27 04:19:41 PM
green jobs.... it's the FUTURE!

Ask Spain about their green initiative... and their 23% unemployment.
 
2012-02-27 04:25:11 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: If we just stopped subsidizing all of them and let the prices of energy sources reflect something closer to their true costs, we'd be in a better position to realize the relative benefits and direct our attention accordingly. You don't need to subsidize alternatives to oil to make them attractive, just stop subsidizing oil.

Does your 'true cost' metric include pricing externalities (via carbon tax, etc.)?


As long as you're not using BS numbers, making extremely tenuous links and double- and triple-counting things, yes. One of the problems with pricing externalities is that people like to throw everything into the mix to the point where someone building a grain mill on the Avon is somehow partially responsible for a guy in Laos having hypertension.

So when you're pricing these, if anyone utters the phrase "if you think about it a certain way" they are immediately beaten with a certified organic and fair-trade didgeridoo.
 
2012-02-27 04:33:49 PM

The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...

Oil companies produce something most people can't live without. You know, that black substance which, once refined, moves our cars, trucks, trains, planes etc....etc..... What do companies like Solyndra and A123 systems produce other than.....well....oh never mind.


They attempt to find an alternative to that dependance on that black substance. You do know that supply of black substance is finite right?
 
2012-02-27 04:45:59 PM

jjorsett: The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: bravian: WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...

Lets ignore the oil companies and talk about companies that that the government has backed with loans and what the success rate is. Not just one that failed and somehow come to the conclusion that the system failed.

/not a big fan of government backed loans but it doesn't have it uses

Government backed loans are helping open a pair of new nuclear reactors in GA, the first since the 70's. There is one good use of such money.

Those loans have to be government-backed because no private lender would otherwise take the risk in the case of a nuke plant, between the regulatory uncertainty and a possible shutdown due to some design flaw or emergency. Whereas a solar panel or battery manufacturer should be able to secure non-guaranteed private financing if it has a sound plan and a reasonable expectation of staying in business.


Not to mention that I'm (and so is every other Georgia Power customer) paying for the plant and have been before there were drawings for it. We get to pay for pre-electricity. I'm sure they will lower our rates once it comes online.
 
2012-02-27 04:49:38 PM
The USSA, where politicians gamble on companies using their your money.
 
2012-02-27 05:09:29 PM
Today's military success story is the Pentagon, $1T in government money per year has netted us $15T in debt. On the upside, my friend in the Army makes $100k/year as a finance guy who failed basic, then went on to heroically fall out of a helicopter in Baghdad.
 
2012-02-27 06:15:39 PM

poughdrew: Today's military success story is the Pentagon, $1T in government money per year has netted us $15T in debt.


only about $696B (including the wars) and one of the few spending items tracking in the 'better' direction. (new window)
 
2012-02-27 08:03:44 PM
Breaking news! A bad economy means sales of green technology will be very low, causing some companies to go out of business!

What would be a valid argument would be to compare the bankrupt rate of green business to other businesses.

But that would mean changing the topic to facts rather than idiot political rants like this idiot below:

trey101: green jobs.... it's the FUTURE!

Ask Spain about their green initiative... and their 23% unemployment.

 
2012-02-27 09:14:18 PM
This will be peanuts compared to the F-35 debacle.
 
2012-02-27 09:33:24 PM
intelligent comment below: Breaking news! A bad economy means sales of green technology will be very low, causing some companies to go out of business!

What would be a valid argument would be to compare the bankrupt rate of green business to other businesses.

But that would mean changing the topic to facts rather than idiot political rants like this idiot below:

trey101: green jobs.... it's the FUTURE!

Ask Spain about their green initiative... and their 23% unemployment.


sigh...
 
2012-02-27 11:17:26 PM
So if we tell conservatives that all corporations are doing green tech, will they finally start paying attention to the massive corporate rape of taxpayer money, instead of wringing their hands in frustration about every poor person who has access to a refrigerator?
 
2012-02-27 11:24:13 PM
ZOMG LET'S BOMB IRAN!!!!!
 
2012-02-27 11:30:31 PM
What is Green about A123? They make batteries maybe some batteries for electric cars but isn't their bread and butter batteries for things like electric drills?
 
2012-02-28 01:19:05 AM

TheGreatGazoo: jjorsett: The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: bravian: WxGuy1: Is there an article on Fox News about how extraordinarily-profitable oil companies receive taxpayer-funded federal subsidies? Just asking...

/ I know, strawman and all...

Lets ignore the oil companies and talk about companies that that the government has backed with loans and what the success rate is. Not just one that failed and somehow come to the conclusion that the system failed.

/not a big fan of government backed loans but it doesn't have it uses

Government backed loans are helping open a pair of new nuclear reactors in GA, the first since the 70's. There is one good use of such money.

Those loans have to be government-backed because no private lender would otherwise take the risk in the case of a nuke plant, between the regulatory uncertainty and a possible shutdown due to some design flaw or emergency. Whereas a solar panel or battery manufacturer should be able to secure non-guaranteed private financing if it has a sound plan and a reasonable expectation of staying in business.

Not to mention that I'm (and so is every other Georgia Power customer) paying for the plant and have been before there were drawings for it. We get to pay for pre-electricity. I'm sure they will lower our rates once it comes online.


lol
+1
 
2012-02-28 06:18:08 AM
They just laid off 125 employees? Then why does a headhunter keep calling me about a testing position there? UltraFark: apparently they found an 8 year old resume of mine which has nothing to do with what I do now or where I live. It does have my accurate phone & email though.

/EE
 
2012-02-28 08:00:18 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: So if we tell conservatives that all corporations are doing green tech, will they finally start paying attention to the massive corporate rape of taxpayer money, instead of wringing their hands in frustration about every poor person who has access to a refrigerator?


Sadly nobody has the balls to take a stand against crony capitalism, except RON PAUL.
 
2012-02-28 08:33:11 AM

kregh99: Government is a shiatty venture capitalist.


What's the success rate of "real" venture capitalists?
 
2012-02-28 08:46:10 AM

HeadLever: poughdrew: Today's military success story is the Pentagon, $1T in government money per year has netted us $15T in debt.

only about $696B (including the wars) and one of the few spending items tracking in the 'better' direction. (new window)


You've got to add in the intel budget (~80bil/yr) plus Homeland Security and some Dept of Energy spending (DOE manages the nuclear arsenal). It's not terribly far off.
 
2012-02-28 08:52:52 AM
Shame there's no market for electric car batteries.
I blame this on high corporate taxes!
 
2012-02-28 09:24:35 AM
More of the Obama Economic Unicorn Miracle. Nice.

But George Bush........
 
2012-02-28 10:06:28 AM
The government should have given them $25 billion like they did Citigroup. That seemed to work out.
 
2012-02-28 10:54:04 AM

RsquaredW: HeadLever: poughdrew: Today's military success story is the Pentagon, $1T in government money per year has netted us $15T in debt.

only about $696B (including the wars) and one of the few spending items tracking in the 'better' direction. (new window)

You've got to add in the intel budget (~80bil/yr) plus Homeland Security and some Dept of Energy spending (DOE manages the nuclear arsenal). It's not terribly far off.


None of which have much to do with the Pentagon.
 
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