Ambivalence: The exact term "seperation of church and state" does not appear in the constitution, however the establishment clause has, time and time again, been interpreted by the judiciary to MEAN exactly that.
seventypercent: Ambivalence: The exact term "seperation of church and state" does not appear in the constitution, however the establishment clause has, time and time again, been interpreted by the judiciary to MEAN exactly that.This same argument is used by people who say that the exact word "privacy" does not exist in the Constitution, so therefore the Founders clearly intended the establishment of an army of federal sexual stormtroopers to kick in bedroom doors and double-tap people engaged in blowjobs.
Ambivalence: Well hey, if you can convince the Supreme court to go for that...
seventypercent: Neither of these rulings have discouraged the Santorum types from arguing that the federal government belongs in people's bedrooms, however.
weave: "This is the First Amendment. The First Amendment says the free exercise of religion. That means bringing everybody, people of faith and no faith, into the public square."I'd normally be inclined to agree with this but I know damn well he doesn't want any of those wrong-faith-Muslim people in that square.
James F. Campbell: I'd just need to find a safe place to watch the country unravel.
ib_thinkin: FTA: The idea that the church can have no influence or no involvement in the operation of the state is absolutely antithetical to the objectives and vision of our country...to say that people of faith have no role in the public square? You bet that makes me want to throw up.Oh, for fark's sake. I don't know who I hate more: Rick Santorum for conflating "people of faith" and the "church," or a douchebag of a quote-snipper for falsely portraying him as such.
Xenomech: [img440.imageshack.us image 640x479]
0Icky0: We need to remake the federal government into hot Chinese chicks.
Triumph: The separation of church and state is meant to protect the individual from the tyranny of the church and the tyranny of the state by not allowing them to team up. Problem is republicans can never comprehend the tyranny of the church and democrats can never comprehend the tyranny of the state.
xl5150: You can deny it all you want and try to be as pedantic as you can possibly get, but the truth is that the US is a Christian nation based on Christian principles.
thegoodbubba: xl5150: You can deny it all you want and try to be as pedantic as you can possibly get, but the truth is that the US is a Christian nation based on Christian principles.The Treaty of Tripoli disagrees with you.
James F. Campbell: It would be a glorious day in America. I'd just need to find a safe place to watch the country unravel.
mamoru: James F. Campbell: It would be a glorious day in America. I'd just need to find a safe place to watch the country unravel.I'm hoping that Thailand is a safe enough vantage point, should such a thing come to pass. :-/
Paris1127: I'm hopefully gonna be studying abroad in Australia when the election comes around. Although from what I hear the fundies over there are crazier than ours...
xl5150: Weaver95: you are either very poorly educated or deliberately lying.I'd say the truly poorly educated are those who base the belief of their entire existence upon a THEORY.
LovingTeacher: I will quite happily give you the right to not use birth-control, not get abortions and pray until your knees bleed, please be so kind as to recognize that I have every right to do exactly the opposite of you if I see fit.
LovingTeacher: I will quite happily give you the right to not use birth-control, not get abortions and pray until your knees bleed
GardenWeasel: Weaver95: En0ch_The_Red: I don't want to live under a Christian theocracy any more than I want to live under a Muslim, Jewish, Bhuddist, Wiccan, or any theocracy. Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.I wonder what a wiccan theocracy would even look like...Do you remember the Sliders episode, where women were the dominant power?
Axle: Could someone please point me to where this "separation of church and state" is mentioned in the Constitution?
StanTheMan: Look farkheads and subby, as a Republican, I wouldn't vote for this anti-Libertarian social conservative Santorum to get out of a burning phone booth, and he scares the fark out of me in terms of ruining a chance to eject Obama from the White House, but the expression "separation of church and state" is not, in fact, "one of the core tenets of American democracy."It's a term used in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to Bible-thumping Connecticut Baptists - who would make Santorum look like Bill Maher - assuring them that yes, you will be able to practice your nice little religion in this new federal system. In fact, Connecticut had an official state religion until 1818 (Congregational Church). New Hampshire had one until 1877!The Bill of Rights didn't even apply to the states until like 40 years after Jefferson's death. The First Amendment's Establishment Clause was not incorporated (applied to the states) until 1947!So, to recap, the term "separation of church and state" was not:1) Ever actually in the Constitution;2) Written by the author of the First Amendment (Madison);3) Used by Jefferson to advance the Establishment Clause (it was actually used to advance the Free Exercise Clause).4) Even relevant to the States until roughly the time of the Roswell incident.Other than that, spot-on, Fark constitutional historians!
Bevets: The 'Wall of Separation' is sacred to Secular Fundamentalists and invisible in the constitution.
The ultimate reliance of free popular government is the intelligence of the people, and the maintenance of freedom among men. We therefore declare anew our devotion to liberty of thought and conscience, of speech and press, and approve all agencies and instrumentalities which contribute to the education of the children of the land, but while insisting upon the fullest measure of religious liberty, we are opposed to any union of Church and State.
Our Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion and forbids any religious test for public office, and it likewise prohibits the establishment of a state-sponsored creed. The balance between those two ideals has been distorted by judicial rulings which attempt to drive faith out of the public arena. The public display of the Ten Commandments does not violate the U.S. Constitution and accurately reflects the Judeo-Christian heritage of our country.
mekki: Only a small fraction of a fraction of the population would vote for him.
oh_please: Really? This is the best and brightest we can come up with?
Weaver95: you are either very poorly educated or deliberately lying.
StanTheMan: Other than that
Bevets: The letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (in which Jefferson assured church leaders that the government would not meddle in church affairs) was written ten years after the First Amendment was ratified. Secular Fundamentalists have a habit of conflating this letter with the First Amendment (which prohibits the establishment of a church by the federal government, but allowed state churches) Jefferson and Madison attended church services in the US Capitol.
hubiestubert: The sad thing is, the separation of church and state is to protect religion.All of them. Not just the popular ones--because popularity waxes and wanes with time. The churches that were popular back when our nation was founded, they've changed a great deal since those days. With no state backing, that protects all the faiths and ministries--because when the state backs one faith, that means that a few ministries are going to have a bit more pull. That puts all churches on a tilted playing field, and that isn't what freedom of religion is about. It's about all faiths being on that level playing field. Everyone has the right to worship as they will, without interference, without skewing the field.The problem here is that some ministries are hoping that they'll get some state backing. Why? Because they're betting that once they get that, they can use that to eliminate the competition. Rick is betting that the Protestants will be brought to heel, the Crazy Baptists are betting that the dirty Papists will see Jesus' Love once and for all and end their idol worship, the Mormons figure that they can just buy and sneak their way into everyone's hearts, and cemeteries.We allow sneaking across the line to state backing of one faith, that puts us on a line to the sort of violence and the sort of problems that rocked Ireland for how many years? Have consumed the conflicts in the Middle East as Shia and Suuni have clashed for how long? We have lovely examples of what happens when a few particular sects get a hold of the government: every other faith then suffers.Which is why we have that wall separating church and state. Not because folks hate religion. But because faith is too important to much up by arbitrary backing of one or two ministries now, at the cost of the rest of the nation.You mouth breathing f*cking dolts.
FlashHarry: i'm guessing he probably feels the same way about free speech and a few other american rights. after all, like the other members of the taliban, he "hates us for our freedoms."
That Magnificent Bastard!: Separation is a principle, not a "core tenent" (SIC)
Weaver95: "I don't believe in an America where the separation of church and state are absolute," he told 'This Week' host George Stephanopoulos. "The idea that the church can have no influence or no involvement in the operation of the state is absolutely antithetical to the objectives and vision of our country...to say that people of faith have no role in the public square? You bet that makes me want to throw up."the church can form a lobbying group and propose legislation just like any other organization or special interest in D.C. of course, they'll lose their tax exempt status and be just one more voice among the many already in D.C. but that's how it goes in the big city.People of faith do have a role, and they can (and often do) vote according to their beliefs. But no religious organization can have any more say or any more rights than any OTHER religious group, and that's the key point you seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp. Christianity is merely ONE voice in the chorus. Muslims, Jews, Pagans and even scientologists and UFO cultists and fringe groups also get a seat at that table.
crispyone: It's just BS and I can't figure out how anyone can defend it. I recently moved to NYC and was suprised to see that my kid has jewish holidays off...but no Christian holidays off at all.
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