Backwards Cornfield Races: Don't know, don't care

Apathetic agnostic?

Slaxl: Hoban Washburne: Actually, he explained himself well. He doesn't know if there is a god (agnostic), and he doesn't believe that there is one (atheist). This is the way the vast majority of atheists and people that call themselves "agnostic" feel.

Don't be absurd, clearly this means not only is god real, for if there is the slightest possibility then that must mean he's real, and that he's a he, and that everything in the bible is true, except the bits the preachers don't like, but also it means that all atheists are drug addled hipsters who just want to piss off their parents. Jeez, you kids...

In all seriousness now, I'm fed up of living in a world where we atheists need to be seen as unmilitant, because anyone militant is bad, and any atheist that says "there's no god" is immediately classed as "militant", and put in the same category as Bin Laden. It's bullshiat, let's be clear, there are no gods, but i'm not going to blow anyone up to prove that point, i'll just sit back and continue drinking, making the occasional fark post.


You monster!

s2s2s2: Or else it has been proven to you, personally, by God.

Well don't bogart the miracle of God's existence, share it with the class. Let me guess you witnessed the miracle of childbirth or know a person who was suddenly cured of a horrible disease.

gimmegimme: Aren't you concerned that your beliefs are so vague as to be considered incoherent?

Vague and Incoherent are in the mind of the observer.

Mija: When he dies he will know without a doubt that God is real. By then it will be too late and he will be lost for eternity. I hope he wises up fast.

You are either a retard or a retarded troll. Either way your mothers a whore.

whatshisname: God .... some vague extra force on par with gravity.

Not a good comparison, there is ample evidence that gravity exists.

Relatively Obscure: Mija: When he dies he will know without a doubt that God is real. By then it will be too late and he will be lost for eternity. I hope he wises up fast.

Define "wise up."

When hitting level 4 and every 4 levels after, one can improve a stat score by one point. If you put this point into wisdom, you have wised up.

s2s2s2: gimmegimme: Aren't you concerned that your beliefs are so vague as to be considered incoherent?

Vague and Incoherent are in the mind of the observer.

Coherency implies an ability to communicate an idea to others. You're not doing that very well. If you ask NASA how the Mars Rovers work, they won't say, "it's all energy, twirling inside of you, reaching to your Chabungi chakra into your pool of deepest knowing...or not. It's all up to you and what you see as your vision spirit truth."

s2s2s2: Mija: When he dies he will know without a doubt that God is real. By then it will be too late and he will be lost for eternity. I hope he wises up fast.

If Dawkins has helped those in need, he will not be lost.
Those that refuse to help the needy will be lost, not matter what other form of fealty they show to a belief in God.

Wait, so the guy on TV in the morning is saying that all you have to do is belieb and saying "praise Jebus" every time you swallow a bugger or drop turd won't get you a free pass in heaven?

9beers: Well don't bogart the miracle of God's existence, share it with the class. Let me guess you witnessed the miracle of childbirth or know a person who was suddenly cured of a horrible disease.

I've experienced both of those things, but I was aware of God well before that. I can't reveal unto God what God is. You'll have to do that for yourself, God.

Ok, let's assume for a moment that there is a god. Humor me. If there was one, it would be the focus of your life. You would devote everything you got to pleasing said god because if you didn't bad things might happen. Now here's my question: Wouldn't you require, for something supposed to be the most important thing in your life, a little bit more proof than the mere say-so of other people and old and poorly worded documents?

I don't believe your magic little god exists. Prove it to me. If you can't even be sure yourself, why should I believe? Tell me. Why should I devote my life to something even you can't be sure exists?

Bah. I look at religion like a coping mechanism. People tend to be religious if they're poor or infirm or poorly educated. It's what people go to when they have trouble getting by and need help. For that I don't blame them. Well maybe I do, a little bit. You can get help in other ways without having to resort to a religion. You don't need to vote the way they tell you to and think they way they tell you to and hate all the right people like they tell you to. You don't need to give them a percentage of your salary so they can spend time bothering low level government officials about nonsense. You don't need to empower a group with a shaky grasp of reality and an appalling lack of morals. You can get by with help from other people without using a group that directly or indirectly harms other people or denies human rights based on gender or skin color or orientation.

You don't have to get help getting by by using a group that inadvertently makes the world a worse place off.

Personal Confession:

I have been a hardcore atheist for nearly a decade and a half. I don't advertise the fact much here or anywhere else. I was an atheist long before Richard Dawkins. Because of him, my determination to continue what I started in 1996 stays strong. As an atheist I do no believe in any religion or in a god. I can't be sure, because at the same time I invest my faith in science. Science is never 100% right; it's always changing. Theories are just that.

Even if you give me proof, I am not going to worship anything or anybody overnight. I am happy where I am, far happier than when I believed in some sort of Christan god. I'll stay here, thank you. Besides, if there is some sort of hell, all the cool music will be there, along with the booze and meat. I'm covered either way.

Tarl3k: I am just going to leave this here...

[www.umnet.com image 240x320]

So are you the theist getting farked by Dawkins?

Is this a metaphor for how you see the world, like religion takes it in the ass from rational thinking people?

Please explain?

Hoban Washburne: ultraholland: a "strong" atheist would claim that they know god doesn't exist; a "weak" atheist lacks a belief but can't make the claim that they have knowledge that god doesn't exist.

But you can't prove a negative, and atheism is driven by logic and empiricism (not faith). How would an atheist logically conclude that they KNOW god doesn't exist?

Because we know that gods are an invention of, and dwell entirely within, the human mind. If it is made-up, then it does not exist in the real world. Some people might confuse this idea with the similar tactic of debunking of an urban legend. You may have an urban legend where you can't "prove" that it has never occurred. But if you can find the origin of a particular urban legend story, and it turns out to have been made up, it becomes safe to say that the legend is false. I guess the difference is that urban legends are events, while gods are things.

s2s2s2: but I was aware of God well before that. I can't reveal unto God what God is.

Well tell us how you're aware of his existence then. I've never seen a believer that doesn't want to share their enlightenment with everybody.

gimmegimme: Coherency implies an ability to communicate an idea to others.

In the case of God it's more an ability to infer truth.

gimmegimme: If you ask NASA how the Mars Rovers work, they won't say, "it's all energy, twirling inside of you, reaching to your Chabungi chakra into your pool of deepest knowing...or not. It's all up to you and what you see as your vision spirit truth."

Good thing I'm not talking about a machine.

wingnut396: Wait, so the guy on TV in the morning is saying that all you have to do is belieb and saying "praise Jebus" every time you swallow a bugger or drop turd won't get you a free pass in heaven?

I believe in Ferraris. Doesn't get me a ride in one.

s2s2s2: Marcus Aurelius: I'll start believing in God the moment the farker shows up. Until then I'm skeptical.

You rang?

There is not evidence in the natural world of "spirit particles" or "spirit forces" that communicate with atoms. But, lets pretend those exist. In our universe the fastest something can travel is the speed of light, 300,000 k/s. However, the distances between objects in our universe are massive. If traveling at the speed of light, it would take 100,000 years to travel across the Milky Way galaxy. So if God is helping Tebow win a football game on Earth and someone on the other side of the galaxy needs assistance, it would take God 100,000 years to get the signal and another 100,000 years to respond. That is a lot of lag time, no? A close galaxy like the Andromeda Galaxy would take 2.54 million years to traverse the gulf of space traveling at the speed of light. Looking at a picture from the Hubble Telescope we see that our Universe has billions of galaxies. Being this is the case, how can God have omniscience and omnipotence?

nytmare: Hoban Washburne: ultraholland: a "strong" atheist would claim that they know god doesn't exist; a "weak" atheist lacks a belief but can't make the claim that they have knowledge that god doesn't exist.

But you can't prove a negative, and atheism is driven by logic and empiricism (not faith). How would an atheist logically conclude that they KNOW god doesn't exist?

Because we know that gods are an invention of, and dwell entirely within, the human mind. If it is made-up, then it does not exist in the real world. Some people might confuse this idea with the similar tactic of debunking of an urban legend. You may have an urban legend where you can't "prove" that it has never occurred. But if you can find the origin of a particular urban legend story, and it turns out to have been made up, it becomes safe to say that the legend is false. I guess the difference is that urban legends are events, while gods are things.

Isn't it weird that most religions have a virgin birth? Isn't it weird that religions created in the Middle East (prone to floods) feature a flood story? Isn't it weird that most religions feature a deity who raises the dead?...etc.

9beers: Well tell us how you're aware of his existence then. I've never seen a believer that doesn't want to share their enlightenment with everybody.

Those are hopers. You have to find your own enlightenment, otherwise it's just CSB bullshiat.

mamoru: trotsky: I was an atheist long before Richard Dawkins.

Are you older than he is?

Yes. But I did not begin to be aware of him until 2005.

s2s2s2: You have to find your own enlightenment, otherwise it's just CSB bullshiat.

In other words, you're ashamed and embarrassed to tell us why you know that God exists. Got it, thanks.

TigerStar: There is not evidence in the natural world of "spirit particles" or "spirit forces" that communicate with atoms. But, lets pretend those exist.

This is what happens when people who don't know try to sort out what they don't know.

trotsky: mamoru: trotsky: I was an atheist long before Richard Dawkins.

Are you older than he is?

Yes. But I did not begin to be aware of him until 2005.

Let me clarify: I decided what I did based on personal feelings and shiat I read on the internet. Yes. The 1996 internet; it was liberating to see other people feel the same way I did. Dawkins helped me put all this into a more academic view, but I was invested long before knowing him.

9beers: In other words, you're ashamed and embarrassed to tell us why you know that God exists. Got it, thanks.

I already told you, God. You are welcome. Maybe you should stop being ashamed of being God. Don't let some ancient philosopher guilt trip you into settling.

s2s2s2: This is what happens when people who don't know try to sort out what they don't know.

How do you "know"?

whatshisname: s2s2s2: This is what happens when people who don't know try to sort out what they don't know.

How do you "know"?

My prediction of s2s2s2's answer: "You just know, God."

whatshisname: s2s2s2: This is what happens when people who don't know try to sort out what they don't know.

How do you "know"?

I hear the scientific method is great for sorting that kind of thing out.

Atheism is the absence of belief in gods, not the positive assertion that there are no gods. I'm not aware of any atheist who claims he can prove the nonexistence of gods.

The hypothetical atheist who believes he can prove the nonexistence of gods is largely a strawman conjured up by religious folks so they can tell their followers: "See? His position depends on faith just as much as ours!" But this is not the case.

I'm not sure why someone as smart as Dawkins would fall in this trap, except that maybe he wanted to strike a conciliatory tone by setting himself apart from those horrible, horrible atheists who in reality believe just the same as he does.

How can Dawkins say there is no God when he gets to bang the vanilla Romana every night?

(As opposed to the chocolate Romana)

whatshisname: How do you "know"?

The same way you do.

gimmegimme: My prediction of s2s2s2's answer: "You just know, God."

Close. You are nearly there. Still to much snark in the formula.

Cpl.D: I hear the scientific method is great for sorting that kind of thing out.

Yet it never, ever really does. You heard wrong.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I'm an agnostic or atheist I guess. Either way, its pretty easy to disprove the existence of an Abrahamic deity.

He prefers to be called Abroamic, bro

s2s2s2: Still too*

Dawkins or no Dawkins, I'd still be an atheist.

What I particularly object to is the efforts of (largely monotheistic) religious people to muddy the waters and otherwise lead people away from knowledge and into their own historical and provably incorrect views on evolution, the formation of Earth and the universe, and so on. I appreciate Dawkins' efforts to try and un-muddy the waters.

There's nothing wrong with beliefs in God and other intangible phenomena (life after death, etc) -- the problems begin when religions make claims about the physical world, someone proves them to be bogus, and the religion then goes to great lengths (including murder) to prevent others from changing their views and thus drifting away from the religion.

We could never have an intellectual debate like this here. All that rational discussion and concession of doubt...the fundies would lose their shiat.

s2s2s2: whatshisname: How do you "know"?

The same way you do.

Can you be a little more precise? Or are vague answers about a vague idea all that I can expect?