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(Stonekettle Station)   "For them, life begins at conception and ends at birth"   (stonekettle.com) divider line 474
    More: Hero, stoned to death, self-loathing, hormonal contraceptives, Iron Age, welfare queen, religious image, hijackings, Jehovah  
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15427 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Feb 2012 at 9:24 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-25 09:41:52 PM

MrEricSir: I still have yet to hear any explanation as to why birth control is suddenly an issue in the past ~50 years. Why were so many people fine with birth control for the last few thousand years, and then suddenly it's not okay? What changed?


What changed? I hate to correct you, but there was no birth control during the dark ages and there still isn't any in the country with Sharia Law.

I guess the only thing that "changed" was that America has a constitution to govern laws and not the bible.... for now.
 
2012-02-25 09:45:46 PM

Cubansaltyballs: MrEricSir: I still have yet to hear any explanation as to why birth control is suddenly an issue in the past ~50 years. Why were so many people fine with birth control for the last few thousand years, and then suddenly it's not okay? What changed?

What changed? I hate to correct you, but there was no birth control during the dark ages and there still isn't any in the country with Sharia Law.

I guess the only thing that "changed" was that America has a constitution to govern laws and not the bible.... for now.


To add to this, the Monty Python Every Sperm is Sacred sketch is a comic illustration of the very real controversies over condoms 100 years ago.
 
2012-02-25 09:50:13 PM
Good to see there are sane people in the world.
 
2012-02-25 09:51:32 PM

Cubansaltyballs: but there was no birth control during the dark ages


Actually methods of birth control is one of the oldest forms of medical literature. Even the book of Genesis refers to one. While many of the methods were in no way effective, there have been methods that were effective at least to some degree. While the birth control pill is something recent, birth control as a topic and the usage of various methods for the purpose dates way back. The oldest known text dealing with birth control is an Egyptian text that dates to roughly 1850 BCE. That's almost four thousand years ago. And among the first well documented medical procedures is abortion. We have texts that are over 2,500 years old the describe how to bring about an abortion or perform one. Interestingly, in many cases the methods described, while not in any way conforming to modern medical standards, did work. And there are even older texts that discuss it as a subject that don't refer to a particular method, given the incompletely of some texts, methods may have at one time been part of them.
 
2012-02-25 09:51:46 PM

Cubansaltyballs:

What changed? I hate to correct you, but there was no birth control during the dark ages and there still isn't any in the country with Sharia Law.


This part isn't necessarily true. One would expect Catholic women would not use birth control, but a Newsweek article reports that 98% of Catholic women have used it.
 
2012-02-25 09:52:11 PM

WhyteRaven74: WTF Indeed: Step 3: ?

And they should read this, which has the added bonus of being written by a conservative (new window)


Certainly an interesting read.
 
2012-02-25 09:53:43 PM
Wow, good read!
 
2012-02-25 09:53:53 PM
Which one of you wrote this?

Because I know that style of rant, I've seen it here before, and I know it's somebody here. You may as well come clean now, because I'm going to figure out who, as soon as I'm done with the bar next week and I've got the time.

Brilliant work, btw.
 
2012-02-25 09:54:02 PM

Cubansaltyballs: I guess the only thing that "changed" was that America has a constitution to govern laws and not the bible.... for now.


The English have had that for centuries longer than the US has. Interestingly they don't have the same issues we do.
 
2012-02-25 09:54:13 PM

WhyteRaven74: Cubansaltyballs: but there was no birth control during the dark ages

Actually methods of birth control is one of the oldest forms of medical literature. Even the book of Genesis refers to one. While many of the methods were in no way effective, there have been methods that were effective at least to some degree. While the birth control pill is something recent, birth control as a topic and the usage of various methods for the purpose dates way back. The oldest known text dealing with birth control is an Egyptian text that dates to roughly 1850 BCE. That's almost four thousand years ago. And among the first well documented medical procedures is abortion. We have texts that are over 2,500 years old the describe how to bring about an abortion or perform one. Interestingly, in many cases the methods described, while not in any way conforming to modern medical standards, did work. And there are even older texts that discuss it as a subject that don't refer to a particular method, given the incompletely of some texts, methods may have at one time been part of them.


The Romans had an herb that was almost 100% effective. Too bad they used so much it went extinct.

\Whoops.
 
2012-02-25 09:56:06 PM

Cubansaltyballs: MrEricSir: I still have yet to hear any explanation as to why birth control is suddenly an issue in the past ~50 years. Why were so many people fine with birth control for the last few thousand years, and then suddenly it's not okay? What changed?

What changed? I hate to correct you, but there was no birth control during the dark ages and there still isn't any in the country with Sharia Law.

I guess the only thing that "changed" was that America has a constitution to govern laws and not the bible.... for now.


Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.
 
2012-02-25 09:56:26 PM

frankmanhog: One would expect Catholic women would not use birth control,


Which brings up a fun bit of recent church history, back in the 60s there was the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control, which decided that there was nothing contrary to Catholic teachings in the use of birth control pills. Pope Paul VI disagreed and there you have it.
 
2012-02-25 09:57:08 PM

cptjeff: Too bad they used so much it went extinct.


Yeah that is one of histories great facepalm moments.
 
2012-02-25 10:00:17 PM

sno man: Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.


"I'm not ass-f*cking this sheep, I'm trying on prophylactics" is one of the oldest excuses known.
 
2012-02-25 10:03:52 PM
The party that wants to "get the government off your back" is the same one that wants to get government into your pants. Bunch of perverts.
 
2012-02-25 10:07:14 PM

Rashnu: sno man: Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.

"I'm not ass-f*cking this sheep, I'm trying on prophylactics" is one of the oldest excuses known.


Okay that was funny, welcome (back?) to TF!
 
2012-02-25 10:07:15 PM

Rashnu: sno man: Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.

"I'm not ass-f*cking this sheep, I'm trying on prophylactics" is one of the oldest excuses known.


Thinking of which, one of my favorite bits of early american history...
 
2012-02-25 10:10:26 PM
Abortions should be safe, legal, and (most importantly) rare. Contraception and education is what will make abortions rare.
 
2012-02-25 10:14:32 PM

Rashnu: sno man: Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.

"I'm not ass-f*cking this sheep, I'm trying on prophylactics" is one of the oldest excuses known.


Thanks for my chortle of the weekend, sheep-f*cker...
 
2012-02-25 10:15:48 PM
Carlin had these clowns pegged back in 1992

Link (new window)
 
2012-02-25 10:16:03 PM

WhyteRaven74: cptjeff: Too bad they used so much it went extinct.

Yeah that is one of histories great facepalm moments.


If they can resurrect plants from 30,000 years ago, then surely we might be able to luck out and find silphium seeds with enough remaining viable genetic material to resurrect it as well.
 
2012-02-25 10:16:11 PM
Awesome. These needs to fly around the internets several times.
 
2012-02-25 10:17:58 PM

Here we have a political party who believes that while corporations are people, and therefore imbued with unlimited and inalienable rights, women are not - not people and not imbued with the same rights as men or corporations.


stopped reading right there. no one, correction: no sane person really believes that they believe this.
 
2012-02-25 10:18:33 PM

sno man: Rashnu: sno man: Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.

"I'm not ass-f*cking this sheep, I'm trying on prophylactics" is one of the oldest excuses known.

Okay that was funny, welcome (back?) to TF!


Cheers, mate! Oh yes, I have seen the other side before; such glories. :)
 
2012-02-25 10:21:03 PM

sno man: Cubansaltyballs: MrEricSir: I still have yet to hear any explanation as to why birth control is suddenly an issue in the past ~50 years. Why were so many people fine with birth control for the last few thousand years, and then suddenly it's not okay? What changed?

What changed? I hate to correct you, but there was no birth control during the dark ages and there still isn't any in the country with Sharia Law.

I guess the only thing that "changed" was that America has a constitution to govern laws and not the bible.... for now.

Hate to correct you but 50 years ago was not the dark ages, and if the have sheep, they have at least primitive condoms. Sharia Law or not.


No, they were employed to prevent earthquakes.
 
2012-02-25 10:21:27 PM

EnviroDude: For others life begins at conception and end when the vacuum tube sucks all the body parts down the drain.


No one gets out alive.
 
2012-02-25 10:23:14 PM

Descartes: Here we have a political party who believes that while corporations are people, and therefore imbued with unlimited and inalienable rights, women are not - not people and not imbued with the same rights as men or corporations.


stopped reading right there. no one, correction: no sane person really believes that they believe this.


If they don't believe this maybe they should stop acting as if they do.
 
2012-02-25 10:23:53 PM

frankmanhog: Cubansaltyballs:

What changed? I hate to correct you, but there was no birth control during the dark ages and there still isn't any in the country with Sharia Law.


This part isn't necessarily true. One would expect Catholic women would not use birth control, but a Newsweek article reports that 98% of Catholic women have used it.


That's the point. If people won't voluntarily embrace Catholicism and ALL its teachings... it's the govt's role to impose it on them.
 
2012-02-25 10:23:56 PM

WhyteRaven74: frankmanhog: One would expect Catholic women would not use birth control,

Which brings up a fun bit of recent church history, back in the 60s there was the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control, which decided that there was nothing contrary to Catholic teachings in the use of birth control pills. Pope Paul VI disagreed and there you have it.


Interesting, I did not know that.

That was a good rant. Just let the GOP marginalize the female vote. They are flying towards political irrelevancy. Obama has figured out a very Taoist approach. Do nothing, and allow your enemy to destroy himself.
 
2012-02-25 10:24:40 PM

WTF Indeed: Step 1: List obvious logical conflicts between consensus morality and conservative morality.
Step 2: Make blog post about it
Step 3: Get greened on FARK, duh!


FTFY. :D
 
2012-02-25 10:24:54 PM

Descartes: Here we have a political party who believes that while corporations are people, and therefore imbued with unlimited and inalienable rights, women are not - not people and not imbued with the same rights as men or corporations.


stopped reading right there. no one, correction: no sane person really believes that they believe this.


...well, except for all of the policies, rhetoric, and action that demonstrates, clearly, that they think this, of course.
 
2012-02-25 10:26:52 PM

Descartes: no sane person really believes that they believe this.


Then why are they acting like the believe it?
 
2012-02-25 10:27:14 PM

SoothinglyDeranged: Well put, and painfully true.


Article bookmarked for future reference. :)
 
2012-02-25 10:29:06 PM

Descartes: stopped reading right there. no one, correction: no sane person really believes that they believe this.


Whether they believe it or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is this sums up their actions, stated goals, and legislative priorities.
 
2012-02-25 10:30:28 PM

WhyteRaven74: Cubansaltyballs: but there was no birth control during the dark ages

Actually methods of birth control is one of the oldest forms of medical literature. Even the book of Genesis refers to one. While many of the methods were in no way effective, there have been methods that were effective at least to some degree.


Avicenna (980-1037), in Canon of Medicine, lists:

rhythm method
separation before seed release (coitus interruptus)
"raise immediately after coitus, jump backwards from seven to nine times forcefully so that the sperm may come out" (Riddle Contraception 128)
sneeze to expel semen
dilute the sperm with slippery agents
suppositories:
cabbage flowers or seed
willow leaves after menstrual flow
pepper after coitus
elephant dung



Brilliant!
 
2012-02-25 10:37:10 PM

Descartes: Here we have a political party who believes that while corporations are people, and therefore imbued with unlimited and inalienable rights, women are not - not people and not imbued with the same rights as men or corporations.


stopped reading right there. no one, correction: no sane person really believes that they believe this.


Have you been following what has happened in the last couple of months? These people had a hearing on women's issues and did not allow a single woman on the panel!

You can't seriously tell me women are treated equally as men to the conservatives. They balk at the idea of insurance companies not covering Viagra, but when it comes to women contraception, they actively oppose it.

So ya, the author's right. Conservatives may not be on the same par as the Taliban, but they're definitely on the same side of the spectrum.
 
2012-02-25 10:38:28 PM
Not going to comment on TFA (yet), but I'm guessing it's a good one considering over half the posts in this thread are ignored and the usual suspects really have their panties in a wad.
 
2012-02-25 10:46:31 PM

DarthBrooks: For them, life begins at conception and ends at birth

As soon as there's an atheist version of Catholic Charities, and the Catholic church stops providing care for the poor and the sick. Until then, this statement is a lie and the writer is a hypocritical ass.


Yeah, there is no way a group of people could pull of something like that without involving religion as a motivator. (new window)
 
2012-02-25 10:47:41 PM
Unless you're in a coma and declared brain dead, then your life is precious again.
 
2012-02-25 10:47:56 PM

James F. Campbell: Abortions should be safe, legal, and (most importantly) rare.


Of the three, I'd say rare is the least important.
 
2012-02-25 10:50:08 PM
This is great. Too bad the pricks the author is talking about won't read it. They are too preoccupied with women to worry about the fantastic hypocrisy bleeding from their god-fearing and clogged pores. What is it? Are they not getting laid? I don't understand.

/beer me
 
2012-02-25 10:50:09 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: James F. Campbell: Abortions should be safe, legal, and (most importantly) rare.

Of the three, I'd say rare is the least important.


If they were totally safe and totally legal, they'd probably become rare by default.
 
2012-02-25 10:55:09 PM

iaazathot: WhyteRaven

That was a good rant. Just let the GOP marginalize the female vote. They are flying towards political irrelevancy. Obama has figured out a very Taoist approach. Do nothing, and allow your enemy to destroy himself.


As much as I'd love to see that happen. All of this "we hate women" stuff will be played out come summer, and gas hits "whatever price it will hit" and we'll get 6 months of Obama fault on that (pretty much like any president get's really, when gas prices spike above whole numbers, even though there's very little they can do about it).
 
2012-02-25 10:57:33 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: James F. Campbell: Abortions should be safe, legal, and (most importantly) rare.

Of the three, I'd say rare is the least important.


They are already legal and safe. The bigger fight now should not have to be about keeping it that way, it should be about making them more rare through unfettered education about, and access to contraception.
 
2012-02-25 10:59:55 PM

snowshovel: iaazathot: WhyteRaven

That was a good rant. Just let the GOP marginalize the female vote. They are flying towards political irrelevancy. Obama has figured out a very Taoist approach. Do nothing, and allow your enemy to destroy himself.

As much as I'd love to see that happen. All of this "we hate women" stuff will be played out come summer, and gas hits "whatever price it will hit" and we'll get 6 months of Obama fault on that (pretty much like any president get's really, when gas prices spike above whole numbers, even though there's very little they can do about it).


If I were more cynical, I would say that the Republican Party is trying to start a war with Iran just to drive gas prices through the roof with the certain embargo they would put on imports to America.
 
2012-02-25 11:02:50 PM

WhyteRaven74: cptjeff: Too bad they used so much it went extinct.

Yeah that is one of histories great facepalm moments.


Who's up for a grant to find some herb DNA at an archeological site, clone the plant and do a Johnny Appleseed with it?
 
2012-02-25 11:04:14 PM
I think too many things are lumped into one blog here. Haven't both parties pretty much agreed with corporate personhood? I mean, that existed long before the current court, right? Like over 100 years? Not that it makes it right, but the idea at the beginning that only one party believes this is simply not accurate.

And, it is possible to be pro-life, anti-death penalty and against the wars we've been fighting for the last 10 years. It is also possible to have those opinions and and have the opinion that rape should carry a far greater penalty than drug dealing (for example).

Can't I be against corporate pershonhood and be against abortion? And be against the death penalty?

This blog tries to hard to relate too many things. I can disagree with the one and agree with all the rest, but I'm still pro life.
 
2012-02-25 11:05:57 PM

edmo: The party that wants to "get the government off your back" is the same one that wants to get government into your pants. Bunch of perverts.


Their Party Representatives will gladly do both if you tap your toe in a public restroom stall.
 
2012-02-25 11:07:17 PM

Gyrfalcon: If they were totally safe and totally legal, they'd probably become rare by default.


Abortion rates are generally higher in more liberal states that have less restrictions. Which makes sense, and is not a bad thing.

sno man: They are already legal and safe.


Legal doesn't mean they aren't difficult to obtain. States passed 83 laws restricting access to abortion in 2011, nearly four times the 23 laws passed in 2010. Link (new window)

The point I'm driving at is one when you cede the moral frame to the right wing, you're very quickly backed into a corner. If liberals agree that abortions are such a horrible thing, then why aren't we supporting all these crude attempts to talk women out of it?

Or,

By unilaterally presenting abortion as a very bad thing in the 1990s, the message mavens of the Clinton administration, with their construction of "safe, legal and rare," gave abortion opponents a rhetorical rationale for piling on restrictions that, in many states, make abortion inaccessible to increasing numbers of women - despite the fact that the Supreme Court decided decades ago that their right to the procedure is protected by the Constitution. Link (new window)
 
2012-02-25 11:07:59 PM

Serious Black: snowshovel: iaazathot: WhyteRaven

That was a good rant. Just let the GOP marginalize the female vote. They are flying towards political irrelevancy. Obama has figured out a very Taoist approach. Do nothing, and allow your enemy to destroy himself.

As much as I'd love to see that happen. All of this "we hate women" stuff will be played out come summer, and gas hits "whatever price it will hit" and we'll get 6 months of Obama fault on that (pretty much like any president get's really, when gas prices spike above whole numbers, even though there's very little they can do about it).

If I were more cynical, I would say that the Republican Party is trying to start a war with Iran just to drive gas prices through the roof with the certain embargo they would put on imports to America.


Off topic but you don't get any Iranian oil anyway. And yes that fact has nothing to do with the price of oil.
 
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