If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(USA Today)   Pope Benedict XVI tells infertile families that they are sinners for trying to get pregnant without sex   (usatoday.com) divider line 568
    More: Dumbass, Pope Benedict XVI, pope, couples  
•       •       •

5375 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Feb 2012 at 1:58 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



568 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-02-25 05:21:37 PM
So, the old Nazi hath spoken. With enlightened leadership like Benedict is it any wonder that, if you go a little lower down the food chain, you end up with crap like this (new window)?
 
2012-02-25 05:21:41 PM

HBK: moonscatter: HBK: The Catholic church has long been opposed to invitro because it creates a number of fertilized eggs, but only one or two (or in the case of Octomom, 8) actually make human beings. Since Catholics believe life begins at conception, fertilizing 10 eggs to yield 1 human is basically like having 9 abortions.

And that shows a fundamental lack of understanding about how procreation works. Even in a perfectly fertile mom, not every egg that gets fertilized is gonna make it. In fact, very few actually make it. Frankly, after all I have learned being a part of this process, I'm amazed that humans have survived as a species at ALL.

Sure, that makes sense. The Catholic argument hinges on the fact that each of those dead embryos you discuss had the chance to eventually be a person. I haven't studied IVF since the discussion in Catholic high school, but from what I remembered, the scientists knew that putting x number of embryos in a woman would yield y babies. I guess part of it ties into their "not wasting the seed" belief which also causes them to disclaim contraception and masturbation (see onanism for further insight on the topic). Each procreative act should have the potential to create life. Even banging a lady on birth control is a no-no.

This is one of the reasons I left the church. One of the things I found ironic was that the teacher who explained this to me was a newlywed. So I asked "are you trying to have a baby?" and she replied "oh, no, not yet, we're practicing natural family planning" - which involves predicting ovulation cycles based on taking the woman's temperature daily. This was somehow okay for Catholics to do, but it seemed like if they were using science to avoid likely conception, this was a contradiction of the church's teachings. She did, however, get knocked up within about two months, so I guess God won that one.

The immaculate conception was another issue I had. If Jesus was supposed to be the Son of God and the So ...


Well, the Catholics are right. Every egg DOES have the potential to become an embryo and then a person, but it doesn't always happen. It assumes a perfection in human reproduction that just doesn't actually exist.

And I understand what you mean about the inherent conflicts that seem to be present. It is how I ended up Lutheran. We have women in the clergy and leadership, so some common sense prevails :)
 
2012-02-25 05:21:58 PM

gadian: Wait, wait...I think I saw this on the X-Files or some such. If you keep using IVF to make infertile people fertile, soon all people will be infertile and the race will require IVF instead of sexual procreation. It's just one step away from our entire race being clones!! Think of the implications people. The space pope is on to something.

It is playing god though. If you're infertile you have no business trying to procreate. Adopt instead.



That pacemaker is playing god though. If you have a heart condition you have no business trying to live. Die instead.

Those antibiotics are playing god though. If you have a bacterial condition you have no business trying to cure it. Die instead.

That wheelchair is playing god though. If you lost your legs you have no business trying to regain some reasonable amount of mobility. Crawl instead.

Those clothes are playing god though. If you're cold you have no business trying to stay warm. Freeze instead.

That car is playing god though. If you can't walk there you have no business trying to go there. Stay home instead.

That home is playing god though............ etc. etc. etc....
 
2012-02-25 05:25:27 PM

Weaver95: halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird

do you nail yourself to that cross, or do you just use velcro?


And just because the thought of "How would that work?" entered my brain, classic Letterman has the answer at about the 3:35 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9uxxqKGmYg (New window)
 
2012-02-25 05:29:10 PM
All Christian denominations believe in the Virgin Birth. Only Catholics and some Orthodox and some Anglicans believe in the Immaculate conception.
 
2012-02-25 05:29:12 PM

the_falling_duck:

Virginal births in other organisms are female parent female offspring only. There is no Y chromosome to get a male offspring.

If it was Mary giving birth to Jessica, then it would be possible. But no Y, no Jesus.


In bees, wasps, and ants, when a queen allows an egg to be fertilized, it develops into a female. When she produces an unfertilized egg, it hatches as a male.


(So maybe the H in "Jesus H. Christ" stands for "hymenoptera" or "haplodiploid.")
 
2012-02-25 05:29:22 PM

Weaver95: cameroncrazy1984: I Like Bread: At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages

What time was this?

very roughly, after the collapse of the Roman empire and mostly until the rise of stable nation-states some 400 years later. it wasn't a unified process though and some areas were blood soaked hellholes for centuries.


Most areas, actually. I'm trying to think of a medieval area that wasn't bloodsoaked. The Crusades sure as hell were savage.
 
2012-02-25 05:29:29 PM

Weaver95: cameroncrazy1984: I Like Bread: At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages

What time was this?

very roughly, after the collapse of the Roman empire and mostly until the rise of stable nation-states some 400 years later. it wasn't a unified process though and some areas were blood soaked hellholes for centuries.


That's kind of Eurocentric, isn't it?
 
2012-02-25 05:30:57 PM

halfof33: DarwiOdrade: Pope bashing != Catholic bashing, but you knew that, didn't you?

Picks quasi-random post:

SquiggelyGrounders: Damn it, Catholics are stupid

Good point Darwi, you farking nailed it.

/by the way, I'm an anti-anti-religionist.


So you support forcing religion on people. Wonderful.
 
2012-02-25 05:31:25 PM

xsarien: Weaver95: halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird

do you nail yourself to that cross, or do you just use velcro?

And just because the thought of "How would that work?" entered my brain, classic Letterman has the answer at about the 3:35 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9uxxqKGmYg (New window)



It made me think of the old Young Ones bit.

Neil: "Yeah look, I really think I should lay this one on you man. It's a really negative way to kill yourself, you know. Like, I've tried it hundreds of times - there's no way you can hammer in the last nail."
 
2012-02-25 05:32:42 PM

FloydA: the_falling_duck:

Virginal births in other organisms are female parent female offspring only. There is no Y chromosome to get a male offspring.

If it was Mary giving birth to Jessica, then it would be possible. But no Y, no Jesus.

In bees, wasps, and ants, when a queen allows an egg to be fertilized, it develops into a female. When she produces an unfertilized egg, it hatches as a male.


(So maybe the H in "Jesus H. Christ" stands for "hymenoptera" or "haplodiploid.")


Termites too?
 
2012-02-25 05:33:27 PM

TheBigJerk: Weaver95: alternative girlfriend: Not a Catholic or even a theist at all, but you don't see the problems inherent in some of this?

I can see where some organizations would have problems with a society where people could build whatever bodies they wanted, or swap bodies around on a whim. But social barriers change, people adapt. I want to live in a world where biology isn't destiny, and where technology is just one more tool in the toolbox to help people live the lives they want to live. you cannot have racism in a society where skin color is no more permanent than hair color. Gender roles cannot be predetermined when ANYONE can be male, female or even neuter whenever they'd like.

would we still have problems? sure. that's human nature. But they'd be different problems than we've got now. and if we can move minds around between bodies than health care and even death becomes less of a problem. our entire focus changes.

Transhuman problems are scary problems, and complex ones. That's why most popular scifi doesn't touch them. Example: Star Trek's prohibition on genetic enhancement. Rather than face the ethical questions involved in post-human society they simply made up a Broken Aesop of Jenners being too dangerous to live because they might become nazis.

And there is an issue with biodiversity. A species that is nothing but scandinavian lesbian supermodels with IQs of 150 sounds nice, but it makes targeted genetic weapons a lot easier to make.


Ah, but your argument contains a logical fallacy, my friend, and that is that is our species were nothing but Scandinavian lesbian supermodels, there would be absolutely no need for genetic weapons! Or weapons of any kind! You're talking about the establishment of paradise as if it were a bad thing!

/completely get your point when it comes to crops, esp. corn
 
2012-02-25 05:34:09 PM

FloydA: the_falling_duck:

Virginal births in other organisms are female parent female offspring only. There is no Y chromosome to get a male offspring.

If it was Mary giving birth to Jessica, then it would be possible. But no Y, no Jesus.

In bees, wasps, and ants, when a queen allows an egg to be fertilized, it develops into a female. When she produces an unfertilized egg, it hatches as a male.


(So maybe the H in "Jesus H. Christ" stands for "hymenoptera" or "haplodiploid.")


That's because the sexing of arthropods is different than mammals.

Just one X will make you a female if you don't have a Y chromosome.
 
2012-02-25 05:36:22 PM

GhostFish: Weaver95: cameroncrazy1984: I Like Bread: At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages

What time was this?

very roughly, after the collapse of the Roman empire and mostly until the rise of stable nation-states some 400 years later. it wasn't a unified process though and some areas were blood soaked hellholes for centuries.

That's kind of Eurocentric, isn't it?


well, we ARE talking about the Roman Catholic church. they're kind of a eurocentric organization.
 
2012-02-25 05:36:28 PM

Bill Murray said I was weird: So you support forcing religion on people. Wonderful.


Yeah, that is TOTALLY what I am supporting. You are like some kind of genius. Because there is a TON of people posting in this god damn thread trying to force religion on people.

/Lord. deliver me from Straw Men and farking morans. Amen.
 
2012-02-25 05:39:29 PM
When I need advice on health care issues, the first person I ask is a Nazi that heads an multinational pedophile ring. Don't you?
 
2012-02-25 05:42:33 PM

Mrtraveler01: It's not even Catholic because most are smart enough to ignore this BS (just look at the majority of Catholic women who use birth control).


Then why keep up any pretense if they're not following it's principles? I'll never get why people continue to associate and financially support this multinational pedophile corporation. It's god damn nuts if you ask me.
 
2012-02-25 05:47:45 PM

Bill Murray said I was weird:

Termites too?


It's the other way around in termites. The asexually produced ones are female "secondary queens."



the_falling_duck:

That's because the sexing of arthropods is different than mammals.

Just one X will make you a female if you don't have a Y chromosome.



You're taking a bad joke (what does the H in Jesus H Christ stand for?) far too seriously.
 
2012-02-25 05:50:28 PM

Weaver95: GhostFish: Weaver95: cameroncrazy1984: I Like Bread: At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages

What time was this?

very roughly, after the collapse of the Roman empire and mostly until the rise of stable nation-states some 400 years later. it wasn't a unified process though and some areas were blood soaked hellholes for centuries.

That's kind of Eurocentric, isn't it?

well, we ARE talking about the Roman Catholic church. they're kind of a eurocentric organization.


Alright, I see where you're coming from. The original statement was, "At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages". So that's why I was a bit thrown.
 
2012-02-25 05:51:04 PM

Johnny Swank: Mrtraveler01: It's not even Catholic because most are smart enough to ignore this BS (just look at the majority of Catholic women who use birth control).

Then why keep up any pretense if they're not following it's principles? I'll never get why people continue to associate and financially support this multinational pedophile corporation. It's god damn nuts if you ask me.


I think it's because of tradition and because of family. I think that's pretty much the only thing keeping me attached to the Church.
 
2012-02-25 05:51:35 PM

alternative girlfriend: TFA: But he added that the Church encourages medical research into infertility.

Uh, what's the point of medical research if they can't use that research for positive effect?


Because people who have a child through IVF are still infertile. IVF is as much of a cure for infertility as insulin therapy is for diabeetus.
 
2012-02-25 05:51:54 PM

halfof33: Bill Murray said I was weird: So you support forcing religion on people. Wonderful.

Yeah, that is TOTALLY what I am supporting. You are like some kind of genius. Because there is a TON of people posting in this god damn thread trying to force religion on people.

/Lord. deliver me from Straw Men and farking morans. Amen.


No, just the Pope.
 
2012-02-25 05:52:48 PM

zipdog: alternative girlfriend: TFA: But he added that the Church encourages medical research into infertility.

Uh, what's the point of medical research if they can't use that research for positive effect?

Because people who have a child through IVF are still infertile. IVF is as much of a cure for infertility as insulin therapy is for diabeetus.


So it's only "playing god" if you don't fix what he broke in the first place.
 
2012-02-25 06:01:48 PM

GhostFish: Alright, I see where you're coming from. The original statement was, "At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages". So that's why I was a bit thrown.


yes, but this is a thread/discussion specifically about the Roman Catholic Church, so the baseline assumption here is that 'religion' is referring specifically to the RC Church, or so the context of the original statement suggested anyways.

this is a bit like going into a US superbowl discussion thread and assuming that 'football' means 'soccer' because you're from europe....
 
2012-02-25 06:03:21 PM
Wait, wait, wait.

People actually want children?
 
2012-02-25 06:04:40 PM

dprathbun: FTFA: The human and Christian dignity of procreation...

Somebody's doing it wrong.


Well that proves the Pope has never seen LUSTY LIFE #89: SLIDE YOUR LONG LOAF IN MY HOT OVEN

Enjoy the whole list (new window)
 
2012-02-25 06:04:50 PM

zipdog: alternative girlfriend: TFA: But he added that the Church encourages medical research into infertility.

Uh, what's the point of medical research if they can't use that research for positive effect?

Because people who have a child through IVF are still infertile. IVF is as much of a cure for infertility as insulin therapy is for diabeetus.


Can't help the smartass moment :) Sometimes IVF is necessary because there are problems with the man's sperm (poor motility, low numbers, kinda retarded looking). The problem isn't always the women's.
 
2012-02-25 06:05:36 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: Wait, wait, wait.

People actually want children?


Of course! Mine are trained to bring me sodas and beer. They can be quite useful. And you can store them in small places!
 
2012-02-25 06:07:32 PM

halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird


Did you miss the Santorum thread yesterday?
 
2012-02-25 06:11:10 PM
"He no playa the game,
he no maka the rules."

(That joke got Earl Butz fired.)
 
2012-02-25 06:15:22 PM
Remember when we found out this guy used to be a Nazi and now he's running the world's largest pedophlie support network?

oh how we laughed.
 
2012-02-25 06:18:34 PM

Peki: Here here. I'm an atheist UU. I love the church because while they do talk about God, it's not in exclusively Christian terms, and is far more about what you can do in your everyday life to be more "Christ-like," in the ideal sense of the term. I'm really glad we live within walking distance.


Likewise, though I haven't attended for some time. I like the fact that everyone is encouraged to learn from and offer viewpoints to everyone else. It really points up the fact that all religions (and lack of religion) have a lot more in common than many would think. My viewpoint going in was that although I'm an atheist, it might be valuable to see what various religions might have to say on different issues -- I'm certainly not averse to learning.
 
2012-02-25 06:26:06 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: Wait, wait, wait.

People actually want children?


Sure, if they're properly cooked.
 
2012-02-25 06:29:47 PM

Weaver95: GhostFish: Alright, I see where you're coming from. The original statement was, "At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages". So that's why I was a bit thrown.

yes, but this is a thread/discussion specifically about the Roman Catholic Church, so the baseline assumption here is that 'religion' is referring specifically to the RC Church, or so the context of the original statement suggested anyways.

this is a bit like going into a US superbowl discussion thread and assuming that 'football' means 'soccer' because you're from europe....


Sure. Fine. I still think it's weird to say "us humans" and not mean that to include the Chinese or the Japanese.
 
2012-02-25 06:40:41 PM
Not sure why this is in the Politics tab. But then I don't know why WWE threads are in the Sports tab either, so there is that.
 
2012-02-25 06:57:54 PM

Balchinian: Not sure why this is in the Politics tab. But then I don't know why WWE threads are in the Sports tab either, so there is that.


The Hundred Years War called. It wants its historical impact back. :P
 
2012-02-25 07:00:48 PM

born_yesterday: Balchinian: Not sure why this is in the Politics tab. But then I don't know why WWE threads are in the Sports tab either, so there is that.

The Hundred Years War called. It wants its historical impact back. :P


It'll have to take a number. The Thirty Years War was first in line.
 
2012-02-25 07:04:39 PM

simplicimus: born_yesterday: Balchinian: Not sure why this is in the Politics tab. But then I don't know why WWE threads are in the Sports tab either, so there is that.

The Hundred Years War called. It wants its historical impact back. :P

It'll have to take a number. The Thirty Years War was first in line.


Hehe. I thought something was off. I'll take off your thirty years and add another 3 beers!

/Good on ya!
 
2012-02-25 07:05:54 PM

born_yesterday: TheBigJerk: Weaver95: alternative girlfriend: Not a Catholic or even a theist at all, but you don't see the problems inherent in some of this?

I can see where some organizations would have problems with a society where people could build whatever bodies they wanted, or swap bodies around on a whim. But social barriers change, people adapt. I want to live in a world where biology isn't destiny, and where technology is just one more tool in the toolbox to help people live the lives they want to live. you cannot have racism in a society where skin color is no more permanent than hair color. Gender roles cannot be predetermined when ANYONE can be male, female or even neuter whenever they'd like.

would we still have problems? sure. that's human nature. But they'd be different problems than we've got now. and if we can move minds around between bodies than health care and even death becomes less of a problem. our entire focus changes.

Transhuman problems are scary problems, and complex ones. That's why most popular scifi doesn't touch them. Example: Star Trek's prohibition on genetic enhancement. Rather than face the ethical questions involved in post-human society they simply made up a Broken Aesop of Jenners being too dangerous to live because they might become nazis.

And there is an issue with biodiversity. A species that is nothing but scandinavian lesbian supermodels with IQs of 150 sounds nice, but it makes targeted genetic weapons a lot easier to make.

Ah, but your argument contains a logical fallacy, my friend, and that is that is our species were nothing but Scandinavian lesbian supermodels, there would be absolutely no need for genetic weapons! Or weapons of any kind! You're talking about the establishment of paradise as if it were a bad thing!

/completely get your point when it comes to crops, esp. corn


Look man, when the aliens come for our women-

psst, we'd all be women

-When the aliens come for us, we need to be ready!
 
2012-02-25 07:06:57 PM

halfof33: DarwiOdrade: Pope bashing != Catholic bashing, but you knew that, didn't you?

Picks quasi-random post:

SquiggelyGrounders: Damn it, Catholics are stupid

Good point Darwi, you farking nailed it.

/by the way, I'm an anti-anti-religionist.


So you are pro-anti-intelectual, pro-bronze age superstition? Hows that working for you?
 
2012-02-25 07:22:05 PM

halfof33: DarwiOdrade: Pope bashing != Catholic bashing, but you knew that, didn't you?

Picks quasi-random post:

SquiggelyGrounders: Damn it, Catholics are stupid

Good point Darwi, you farking nailed it.

/by the way, I'm an anti-anti-religionist.


If by quasi-random, you mean cherry-picked to illustrate your point, then sure, you farking nailed it.

by the way, I'm not anti-religion, just anti-shoving-your-religion-down-others'-throats
 
2012-02-25 07:37:47 PM
Asshole says what?

Seriously? the catholic church wants to distance itself further from its parrishoner's mainstream opinion on yet another subject.

/catholic altar boy 30 years ago
//I got better
///IVF gave us a beautiful boy 18 months ago
////halfwit magician who was employed through the use of pink smoke never spoke for me anyway
 
2012-02-25 07:41:22 PM
It's rather interesting how many people in this thread think that this stance is somehow new or recently modified.
 
2012-02-25 07:41:58 PM
Po knows arrogance.
 
2012-02-25 07:57:46 PM

Earpj: Maybe he should've followed up with talking about how many kids out there need families.

/I am not a Catholic, nor have I had the heartbreak of infertility.


That was something I observed with some acquaintances who were struggling to conceive a second child and opted for IVF. Everything else was always chalked up to God's Will, but deny them a second offspring and suddenly they were happy to throw tens of thousands of dollars towards spiting it.
 
2012-02-25 08:08:54 PM
If they got as angry about paedophiles as they did ivf maybe it wouldn't seem so bad.

The story of Rachel in the Bible, Sarah and and Abraham and Elkanah and Hannah, all have the theme of God selectively opening and closing wombs. The idea is that when God is happy you can have a child, when God is not, you can't. Pray hard you'll get a child. When people are stuck with an illness and they have no idea of the origin or cure, God seems like a good place to go. Now that we know so much more and have IVF, no one is going to be sacrificing at the temple for God's good favour. Science has replaced God as the saviour of this particular problem.

The Pope can jump up and down but like any critic, you're only a critic. If you have a viable alternative put it forward.

/ I'm a Rambling man
 
2012-02-25 08:16:55 PM

Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.


Heretic! Burn him!
 
2012-02-25 08:17:50 PM
This is going to get me flamed all to hell, but while I don't think IVF is a sin, I do think it is a bad idea to insist on carrying through into the next generation genes that evolution has vetoed while there are tens of thousands of kids in this country in need of stable loving homes. I think its pretty selfish.
 
2012-02-25 08:19:18 PM

Kumana Wanalaia: Ratzinger? The nazi?


Why yes. He's now wagging his finger at people having fun farking.
 
2012-02-25 08:19:38 PM
Oh and by the way in the Story of Hannah she asks the temple for her womb to be opened by God, and as part of the payment back to the temple her son would be given to the temple. She had 5 kids one of them (Samuel) she had to give to the temple to say thanks.
So that's the Bible for ya. Would that seem moral today?
 
Displayed 50 of 568 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report