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(USA Today)   Pope Benedict XVI tells infertile families that they are sinners for trying to get pregnant without sex   (usatoday.com) divider line 568
    More: Dumbass, Pope Benedict XVI, pope, couples  
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5375 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Feb 2012 at 1:58 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-25 03:36:52 PM  
What is the purpose of infertile couples using sex to have children?
 
2012-02-25 03:38:58 PM  

coeyagi: Virgin births, sure. Divine virgin births? Show me the money, bro.


I never mentioned "Divine Virgin Births" - the analogy was that because Christians believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus, they were being hypocritical for believing that artificial fertility was wrong. My point, and one I've proven, is that because Virgin Births happen in nature, it is not a hypocritical position to believe that a "Natural" Virgin Birth is different from "Artificial" fertility. One is playing God, the other is allowing the Universe to work on it's own.

www.populardancestyles.com
 
2012-02-25 03:41:18 PM  

RandomExcess: What is the purpose of infertile couples using sex to have children?


It's fun.
 
2012-02-25 03:47:30 PM  

CanisNoir: coeyagi: Virgin births, sure. Divine virgin births? Show me the money, bro.

I never mentioned "Divine Virgin Births" - the analogy was that because Christians believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus, they were being hypocritical for believing that artificial fertility was wrong. My point, and one I've proven, is that because Virgin Births happen in nature, it is not a hypocritical position to believe that a "Natural" Virgin Birth is different from "Artificial" fertility. One is playing God, the other is allowing the Universe to work on it's own.

[www.populardancestyles.com image 499x333]


Christians don't believe in natural virgin birth; they believe in divine virgin birth and thus your argument is a complete falsehood.
 
2012-02-25 03:50:16 PM  

Weaver95: would we still have problems? sure. that's human nature.


Well, the Cylons certainly found out that having a perfect humanoid body led to becoming more human than the humans. I mean it was on TV and all.
 
2012-02-25 03:51:14 PM  

RexTalionis: Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.

High five. I look forward to the day when I can have doctors cut away the rotting flesh shell I'm entombed in.


Then the war starts between the Arm and the Core..
 
2012-02-25 03:51:25 PM  

Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.


Rebuttal:
www.startrek.com
 
2012-02-25 03:57:49 PM  
On the flip side, I'm not even that religious and I attend a liberal, northern Baptist church. There is no hate from the pastor, everyone is welcome, and half of ever mass is devoted to how the church as a whole can assist the members that have fallen on hard times. They still offer free day care to all the families displaced by Hurricane Irene. It reminds me each week the person I want to be. Not everyone needs that but I do.

This is what religion and church should be. Not a bunch of old men telling everyone how to live the most intimate details of their lives.


AS an atheist I'd attend your church, maybe drop a few bucks in the collection plate too.
 
2012-02-25 04:07:16 PM  
No' Virgin Birth' thread is complete without a reference to the "During the civil war a young woman got pregnant when a bullet which had pierced a soldiers scrotum got lodged in her ovaries" urban legend.
 
2012-02-25 04:09:22 PM  

AngryDragon: Can I get excommunicated for calling the pope a douchebag?

Mouth breather?

Retard?


Ah, you can become excommunicated for simply disagreeing with the catholic church, but they won't break out the book bell and staff ceremony these days. And they won't actually tell people not to talk to you.

Excommunication is overrated. To really get their goat you need to come out as a victim of childhood rape by a priest.
 
2012-02-25 04:10:27 PM  
Arrogance:

1. The belief that you speak on behalf of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and immortal being, and
2. The conviction that because of (1), you have the authority to tell others what to do.

Keep you delusions to yourself, Benedict. If you weren't wearing a funny looking hat we'd lock you in a room with padded walls.
 
2012-02-25 04:10:46 PM  

Weaver95: alternative girlfriend: Not a Catholic or even a theist at all, but you don't see the problems inherent in some of this?

I can see where some organizations would have problems with a society where people could build whatever bodies they wanted, or swap bodies around on a whim. But social barriers change, people adapt. I want to live in a world where biology isn't destiny, and where technology is just one more tool in the toolbox to help people live the lives they want to live. you cannot have racism in a society where skin color is no more permanent than hair color. Gender roles cannot be predetermined when ANYONE can be male, female or even neuter whenever they'd like.

would we still have problems? sure. that's human nature. But they'd be different problems than we've got now. and if we can move minds around between bodies than health care and even death becomes less of a problem. our entire focus changes.


Yes, yes, and yes. I agree 1000% with Weaver in this thread (pretty typical of me).
 
2012-02-25 04:14:27 PM  
FTFA: "The human and Christian dignity of procreation, in fact, doesn't consist in a 'product,' but in its link to the conjugal act, an expression of the love of the spouses of their union, not only biological but also spiritual," Benedict said.

i75.photobucket.com
 
2012-02-25 04:15:49 PM  
While I don't tend to agree with religion on many issues, or even a few issues, this headline's statement is actually objectively true - for some definitions of objectively - moreso than most of the vitriol that religious dogma will espouse.

On the flip side, like Weaver, I would say we do have a right to manage our limitations or repair our faults with technology. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a duty, though. The collective consciousness needs to be updated beyond simply "survive and multiply" before we go and eliminate every means of natural population control.
 
2012-02-25 04:19:27 PM  

FloydA: RandomExcess: What is the purpose of infertile couples using sex to have children?

It's fun.


Very dangerous reasoning.
 
2012-02-25 04:23:42 PM  

RandomExcess: FloydA: RandomExcess: What is the purpose of infertile couples using sex to have children?

It's fun.

Very dangerous reasoning.


Please explain how infertile couples having sex for fun is dangerous.
 
2012-02-25 04:25:31 PM  

Weaver95: alternative girlfriend: Not a Catholic or even a theist at all, but you don't see the problems inherent in some of this?

I can see where some organizations would have problems with a society where people could build whatever bodies they wanted, or swap bodies around on a whim. But social barriers change, people adapt. I want to live in a world where biology isn't destiny, and where technology is just one more tool in the toolbox to help people live the lives they want to live. you cannot have racism in a society where skin color is no more permanent than hair color. Gender roles cannot be predetermined when ANYONE can be male, female or even neuter whenever they'd like.

would we still have problems? sure. that's human nature. But they'd be different problems than we've got now. and if we can move minds around between bodies than health care and even death becomes less of a problem. our entire focus changes.


Transhuman problems are scary problems, and complex ones. That's why most popular scifi doesn't touch them. Example: Star Trek's prohibition on genetic enhancement. Rather than face the ethical questions involved in post-human society they simply made up a Broken Aesop of Jenners being too dangerous to live because they might become nazis.

And there is an issue with biodiversity. A species that is nothing but scandinavian lesbian supermodels with IQs of 150 sounds nice, but it makes targeted genetic weapons a lot easier to make.
 
2012-02-25 04:26:41 PM  
on a related note...what do you think would happen if we cured HIV/AIDS and all sexually transmitted diseases? then we develop female AND male contraception that is 100% effective (when used properly, of course). do you think religious groups would approve of consequence free random sex?
 
2012-02-25 04:29:38 PM  

TheBigJerk: Transhuman problems are scary problems, and complex ones. That's why most popular scifi doesn't touch them. Example: Star Trek's prohibition on genetic enhancement. Rather than face the ethical questions involved in post-human society they simply made up a Broken Aesop of Jenners being too dangerous to live because they might become nazis.


I always thought the eugenics wars thing was a cop out. genetic engineering doesen't mean that you'll grow a generation of Ayn Rand worshipping freaks. it just means a society with no genetic diseases and a longer lifespan.
 
2012-02-25 04:30:13 PM  
Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird
 
2012-02-25 04:31:51 PM  

halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird


Pope bashing != Catholic bashing, but you knew that, didn't you?
 
2012-02-25 04:32:08 PM  

RandomExcess: What is the purpose of infertile couples using sex to have children?


i75.photobucket.com

Isn't that kind of a contradiction?

cameroncrazy1984: RandomExcess: FloydA: RandomExcess: What is the purpose of infertile couples using sex to have children?

It's fun.

Very dangerous reasoning.

Please explain how infertile couples having sex for fun is dangerous.


Presumably he means using, "It's fun" as the be-all end-all reasoning for an act is not enough. Serial Killers find murder fun, but because it is MURDER it is wrong. Presumably RandomExcess wanted you to add, "and it doesn't hurt anything."

and/or RandomExcess just felt like trolling out of boredom.
 
2012-02-25 04:32:26 PM  

halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird


do you nail yourself to that cross, or do you just use velcro?
 
2012-02-25 04:33:01 PM  
You know, if the Pope was saying this because there are children that need good homes, well, I could understand that. It would still be pretty damn special, but hey, the guy's never had any real-life experience. I get it.

This is just farking stupid.
 
2012-02-25 04:38:06 PM  
"The human and Christian dignity of procreation, in fact, doesn't consist in a 'product,' but in its link to the conjugal act, an expression of the love of the spouses of their union, not only biological but also spiritual," Benedict said.

So what about Onan? You know, the guy that was told to impregnate his dead brother's wife. That wasn't an act being done out of love between those two. It was an act done to preserve his brother's family line.

And when Onan refused, God struck him dead.
 
2012-02-25 04:41:21 PM  
Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday urged infertile couples to shun artificial procreation, decrying such methods as a form of arrogance.01\

Yeah, arrogant, unlike thinking you have a hotline to god, he speaks to you and you speak for him, and you're infallible when doing so.
 
2012-02-25 04:41:47 PM  

Mrtraveler01: SquiggelyGrounders: Yet another example of religious derp. Damn it, Catholics are stupid.

It's not even Catholic because most are smart enough to ignore this BS (just look at the majority of Catholic women who use birth control). It's just the leadership in the Church itself which always finds a way to top itself in doing something idiotic.

Most Catholics I know aren't this batshiat insane.

/Very lapsed Catholic


Batshiat insane enough to believe in virgin birth, water to wine, and a bearded sky fairy.
 
HBK
2012-02-25 04:49:10 PM  
The Catholic church has long been opposed to invitro because it creates a number of fertilized eggs, but only one or two (or in the case of Octomom, 8) actually make human beings. Since Catholics believe life begins at conception, fertilizing 10 eggs to yield 1 human is basically like having 9 abortions.
 
2012-02-25 04:51:00 PM  

DrBenway: I wish they'd get their story straight. I thought it was "sinners for sex without trying to get pregnant." The bastards are never happy.


You can't get pregnant without sex, and you can't have sex without pregnancy. The two are intertwined. Proper God-fearing folk should mate once per child, and then never again.

At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages. You're damn right the church misses those days.
 
2012-02-25 04:51:22 PM  

SquiggelyGrounders: Mrtraveler01: SquiggelyGrounders: Yet another example of religious derp. Damn it, Catholics are stupid.

It's not even Catholic because most are smart enough to ignore this BS (just look at the majority of Catholic women who use birth control). It's just the leadership in the Church itself which always finds a way to top itself in doing something idiotic.

Most Catholics I know aren't this batshiat insane.

/Very lapsed Catholic

Batshiat insane enough to believe in virgin birth, water to wine, and a bearded sky fairy.


I think transubstantiation takes the cake.

Despite any and all evidence to the contrary, bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ.
Not a metaphor. But the actual flesh of Jesus. Even though it would still appear to be bread and wine if you stuck it under an electron microscope or did any number of other tests on it.

I think that's one of the most horrid and dangerous ideas that organized religion puts forward, because it very directly demands the acceptance of a lie despite all the evidence to the contrary. It teaches people to ignore facts and evidence and accept something that is plainly and demonstrably false.
 
2012-02-25 04:51:42 PM  

Weaver95: TheBigJerk: Transhuman problems are scary problems, and complex ones. That's why most popular scifi doesn't touch them. Example: Star Trek's prohibition on genetic enhancement. Rather than face the ethical questions involved in post-human society they simply made up a Broken Aesop of Jenners being too dangerous to live because they might become nazis.

I always thought the eugenics wars thing was a cop out. genetic engineering doesen't mean that you'll grow a generation of Ayn Rand worshipping freaks. it just means a society with no genetic diseases and a longer lifespan.


It was, mostly. In their defense though any scifi is limited by how many high-minded concepts the audience can actually handle. You can argue the relative push and pull of audience stupidity and Hollywood pandering but it is undeniable that both are factors.

And while Star Trek took a cop-out with all the Hanzers being sociopathic Nietzscheans, but one of the "problems" post-humanity will have, as you mentioned we will, is that access to transhumanism will have limits. Whether they are internally imposed by religion and fear or externally imposed by the cost of delta-grade bioware, there will be people "left behind." I believe the commonly-accepted numbers state that 95% of the Native American population was killed off by disease, not war. A population doesn't have to be holocaust'd to be hedged out.
 
2012-02-25 04:57:06 PM  

GhostFish: SquiggelyGrounders: Mrtraveler01: SquiggelyGrounders: Yet another example of religious derp. Damn it, Catholics are stupid.

It's not even Catholic because most are smart enough to ignore this BS (just look at the majority of Catholic women who use birth control). It's just the leadership in the Church itself which always finds a way to top itself in doing something idiotic.

Most Catholics I know aren't this batshiat insane.

/Very lapsed Catholic

Batshiat insane enough to believe in virgin birth, water to wine, and a bearded sky fairy.

I think transubstantiation takes the cake.

Despite any and all evidence to the contrary, bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ.
Not a metaphor. But the actual flesh of Jesus. Even though it would still appear to be bread and wine if you stuck it under an electron microscope or did any number of other tests on it.

I think that's one of the most horrid and dangerous ideas that organized religion puts forward, because it very directly demands the acceptance of a lie despite all the evidence to the contrary. It teaches people to ignore facts and evidence and accept something that is plainly and demonstrably false.


Good point. That exemplifies one of the biggest problems with religion.

I always like to point out cannibalism to catholics on that topic.
 
2012-02-25 04:57:16 PM  
8 yeas ago, I went to a reproductive endocrinologist because we wanted kids and I don't ovulate, which sort of creates a problem. I have the two most insane, wonderful, hysterical, life affirming ridiculous girls in the world as a result. The pope can kiss my sweet fannie adams.

My husband and I decided we wanted more kids. We made a decision - we'd do one round of IVF, and if that didn't work, we'd adopt.

Well, it worked. I guess I'm just arrogant that way. (We're thinking about adopting later on anyhow - he wants a family big enough to field as a hockey team!)

Dealing with being infertile is incredibly personal, difficult and involves a lot of very soul searching decisions. For example, we refused to allow more embryos to be created than could be implanted. And it is a very physically painful process. Think about getting multiple shots in the fanny multiple times a day, raging hormones and YOU CANT DRINK!
 
2012-02-25 04:57:21 PM  

halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird


WAAHHHH I don't what other ppl say about my imperious leader...
 
2012-02-25 04:58:42 PM  

HBK: The Catholic church has long been opposed to invitro because it creates a number of fertilized eggs, but only one or two (or in the case of Octomom, 8) actually make human beings. Since Catholics believe life begins at conception, fertilizing 10 eggs to yield 1 human is basically like having 9 abortions.


And that shows a fundamental lack of understanding about how procreation works. Even in a perfectly fertile mom, not every egg that gets fertilized is gonna make it. In fact, very few actually make it. Frankly, after all I have learned being a part of this process, I'm amazed that humans have survived as a species at ALL.
 
2012-02-25 04:59:19 PM  

HBK: The Catholic church has long been opposed to invitro because it creates a number of fertilized eggs, but only one or two (or in the case of Octomom, 8) actually make human beings. Since Catholics believe life begins at conception, fertilizing 10 eggs to yield 1 human is basically like having 9 abortions.


At least that is consistent, but now the Pope switched the argument to some BS dignity issue.
 
2012-02-25 05:01:39 PM  
Not sure there's many other times I'd agree with the poop, but, on this one, if the *god* had wanted these peeps to ...
 
2012-02-25 05:03:46 PM  

CanisNoir: Runs_With_Scissors_: You're lying, and you know it. Farking troll.

No, I'm not lying, as I'm sure you've discovered by reading the rest of the thread. Google and Wiki-Leaks are not exactly good resources for this type of citation, I was thinking specifically of a large thesis paper I've been reading by a theologist that's siting down on the kitchen table which mentions more than the two sects (Quakers and some other) mentioned in this thread.

And yes, because Virgin Births exist in nature, you can avoid being hypocritical by affirming that artificial fertility is playing "God" while the Virgin Birth is a-okay.

/who's the troll again?


Again: This is a statement by the Pope. We are talking Catholic theology. Why are you bringing any other sect into the conversation? That's trolling in my book.
 
2012-02-25 05:04:17 PM  

biglot: Not sure there's many other times I'd agree with the poop, but, on this one, if the *god* had wanted these peeps to ...


Not sure if serious, but I love this line of argument. If you believe in that kind of God, then you must believe he had a hand in discovery of in vitro fertilization. If God really didn't want infertile couples to reproduce, that discovery would never have been made.
 
2012-02-25 05:07:36 PM  

Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.



Medical science in general is an effort to do this. The pope is the arrogant one here... He's been the happy recipient of cutting edge medical care, which is no different than fertility treatments by his own logic. But he thinks he can arrogantly pick and choose which times the will of the creator should be "violated" by medical science - and selfishly limit that to only the times it doesn't apply to the pope himself.

And apparently he's not even considering the idea that it was the creator who allowed for a universe where our doctors and scientists could make these discoveries and advances. So truly this pope's arrogance is great.
 
2012-02-25 05:09:38 PM  
The pope can tell his cult to do/not do whatever the hell he wants. I just wish he'd back off his minions on trying to force the rest of us to live by his laws.
 
2012-02-25 05:10:49 PM  

GhostFish:

I think transubstantiation takes the cake.

Despite any and all evidence to the contrary, bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ.
Not a metaphor. But the actual flesh of Jesus. Even though it would still appear to be bread and wine if you stuck it under an electron microscope or did any number of other tests on it.

I think that's one of the most horrid and dangerous ideas that organized religion puts forward, because it very directly demands the acceptance of a lie despite all the evidence to the contrary. It teaches people to ignore facts and evidence and accept something that is plainly and demonstrably false.



That's precisely what it's for. If someone is willing to believe something that is patently and obviously contradicted by all of his/her experiences, just because they were told to believe it, they can be made to do anything you want them to do.
 
2012-02-25 05:11:59 PM  

I Like Bread: At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages


What time was this?
 
2012-02-25 05:14:03 PM  
Wait, wait...I think I saw this on the X-Files or some such. If you keep using IVF to make infertile people fertile, soon all people will be infertile and the race will require IVF instead of sexual procreation. It's just one step away from our entire race being clones!! Think of the implications people. The space pope is on to something.

It is playing god though. If you're infertile you have no business trying to procreate. Adopt instead.
 
2012-02-25 05:16:19 PM  

gadian: Wait, wait...I think I saw this on the X-Files or some such. If you keep using IVF to make infertile people fertile, soon all people will be infertile and the race will require IVF instead of sexual procreation. It's just one step away from our entire race being clones!! Think of the implications people. The space pope is on to something.

It is playing god though. If you're infertile you have no business trying to procreate. Adopt instead.


Your last statement is as offensive as the pope's. Its a personal decision. And there are different levels of infertility. Some people need a little help, some a lot. And a lot adopt anyhow, on top of trying. And some give up and decide to live child free. Everyone needs to choose how they build their family based on their own needs, wants and beliefs.
 
HBK
2012-02-25 05:17:25 PM  

moonscatter: HBK: The Catholic church has long been opposed to invitro because it creates a number of fertilized eggs, but only one or two (or in the case of Octomom, 8) actually make human beings. Since Catholics believe life begins at conception, fertilizing 10 eggs to yield 1 human is basically like having 9 abortions.

And that shows a fundamental lack of understanding about how procreation works. Even in a perfectly fertile mom, not every egg that gets fertilized is gonna make it. In fact, very few actually make it. Frankly, after all I have learned being a part of this process, I'm amazed that humans have survived as a species at ALL.


Sure, that makes sense. The Catholic argument hinges on the fact that each of those dead embryos you discuss had the chance to eventually be a person. I haven't studied IVF since the discussion in Catholic high school, but from what I remembered, the scientists knew that putting x number of embryos in a woman would yield y babies. I guess part of it ties into their "not wasting the seed" belief which also causes them to disclaim contraception and masturbation (see onanism for further insight on the topic). Each procreative act should have the potential to create life. Even banging a lady on birth control is a no-no.

This is one of the reasons I left the church. One of the things I found ironic was that the teacher who explained this to me was a newlywed. So I asked "are you trying to have a baby?" and she replied "oh, no, not yet, we're practicing natural family planning" - which involves predicting ovulation cycles based on taking the woman's temperature daily. This was somehow okay for Catholics to do, but it seemed like if they were using science to avoid likely conception, this was a contradiction of the church's teachings. She did, however, get knocked up within about two months, so I guess God won that one.

The immaculate conception was another issue I had. If Jesus was supposed to be the Son of God and the Son of Man, how could he be born without original sin? It doesn't make sense. Without original sin, it doesn't really seem like he's got the Man part of that equation.
 
2012-02-25 05:17:51 PM  

CanisNoir: coeyagi: Think long and hard about how this doesn't jive.

During the holidays, Christians celebrate the birth of a human baby to his virginal mother. We know that female wasps, fish, birds, and lizards can produce healthy offspring without having sex, but what about people? Are natural human virgin births possible?

Yes, in theory. However, a number of rare events would have to occur in close succession, and the chances of these all happening in real life are virtually zero.

Slate, 2007 (new window)

Jives just fine.

/Hand jive even.


Virginal births in other organisms are female parent female offspring only. There is no Y chromosome to get a male offspring.

If it was Mary giving birth to Jessica, then it would be possible. But no Y, no Jesus.
 
2012-02-25 05:18:40 PM  

Weaver95: halfof33: Oh, a Catholic bashing thread for the weekend farkers.

We have not had one of those since Wednesday. Although that was a doozy! Thanks modmins!

We had a thread about Islam on thursday, very few of the spittle soaked anti-religion trolls showed up there.

Weird

do you nail yourself to that cross, or do you just use velcro?



"LOL" gets tossed around so much these days, but I really just wanted to let you know that this time it actually happened.

/ Cheeers.
 
2012-02-25 05:19:21 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: I Like Bread: At one time, religion was arguably the only thing keeping us humans from being complete savages

What time was this?


very roughly, after the collapse of the Roman empire and mostly until the rise of stable nation-states some 400 years later. it wasn't a unified process though and some areas were blood soaked hellholes for centuries.
 
2012-02-25 05:20:37 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Pope bashing != Catholic bashing, but you knew that, didn't you?


Picks quasi-random post:

SquiggelyGrounders: Damn it, Catholics are stupid


Good point Darwi, you farking nailed it.

/by the way, I'm an anti-anti-religionist.
 
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