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(USA Today)   Pope Benedict XVI tells infertile families that they are sinners for trying to get pregnant without sex   (usatoday.com) divider line 568
    More: Dumbass, Pope Benedict XVI, pope, couples  
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5375 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Feb 2012 at 1:58 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-25 10:26:37 AM
Reiterating Vatican teaching, he called marriage the only permissible place to conceive children.

Rebuttal:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-02-25 10:33:57 AM
Maybe he should've followed up with talking about how many kids out there need families.

/I am not a Catholic, nor have I had the heartbreak of infertility.
 
2012-02-25 10:42:25 AM
They need to keep their monopoly on immaculate conception

/it's a big part of their business model
 
2012-02-25 10:59:08 AM
How dare people use alternate means than just plain schtupping to get pregnant.

Can't use contraception. Can't use proception. Has the Pope considered that perhaps God gave us the wit to ease conception because that is the means to help these nice folks add more folks to the rolls?
 
2012-02-25 11:05:41 AM

hubiestubert: How dare people use alternate means than just plain schtupping to get pregnant.

Can't use contraception. Can't use proception. Has the Pope considered that perhaps God gave us the wit to ease conception because that is the means to help these nice folks add more folks to the rolls?


That and gin.
 
2012-02-25 11:09:41 AM

Cake Hunter: hubiestubert: How dare people use alternate means than just plain schtupping to get pregnant.

Can't use contraception. Can't use proception. Has the Pope considered that perhaps God gave us the wit to ease conception because that is the means to help these nice folks add more folks to the rolls?

That and gin.


To be fair, if the Pope declared alcohol to contravene "artificial methods to conceive" then Ireland would turn Protestant overnight...
 
2012-02-25 11:21:26 AM

Karac: Reiterating Vatican teaching, he called marriage the only permissible place to conceive children.

Rebuttal:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x278]


i105.photobucket.com
 
2012-02-25 12:09:31 PM
Like people who have sworn themselves celibacy* are experts on the subject....



*other than buggering young boys.
 
2012-02-25 01:10:16 PM
i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.
 
2012-02-25 01:10:57 PM
Ahhh, the infallible boy buggery expert has a opinion
 
2012-02-25 01:13:54 PM

Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.


High five. I look forward to the day when I can have doctors cut away the rotting flesh shell I'm entombed in.
 
2012-02-25 01:15:49 PM

Karac: Rebuttal:


You might be confusing the belief of Immaculate Conception with that of the Virgin Birth - they are two very different beliefs and not all Christians hold to the tenant of The Virgin Birth. (Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was born without original sin).

I don't find this stance to be all that surprising considering that artificial means of birth would be considered "Playing God" and there's plenty of children out there who could use good adoptive parents.
 
2012-02-25 01:18:08 PM
also - the more control we have over our own biology the more freedom we've got. Imagine a world where people could look however they'd like - where biology was no longer destiny. gender was a choice, as was skin color or even age.

I'd like to live in a world where people could switch bodies and gender at will or whim, where they could design a child or grow one up naturally or maybe find a middle ground that suited their beliefs. A world where a child could, once they were old enough, decide for themselves what they wanted to look like or enhance.

I wonder what the Catholic church would think of such a world?
 
2012-02-25 01:25:48 PM

CanisNoir: Karac: Rebuttal:

You might be confusing the belief of Immaculate Conception with that of the Virgin Birth - they are two very different beliefs and not all Christians hold to the tenant of The Virgin Birth. (Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was born without original sin).

I don't find this stance to be all that surprising considering that artificial means of birth would be considered "Playing God" and there's plenty of children out there who could use good adoptive parents.


I'm certainly willing to believe you, but I request citation. I've never heard of a sect of Christianity that doesn't have this as a major tenant.
 
2012-02-25 01:27:51 PM
It's so much easier being a godless heathen.
 
2012-02-25 01:34:05 PM

pisceandreamer: It's so much easier being a godless heathen.


No it isn't. I have to live with the shame of having recreational sex with random people. I need to live in fear of an afterlife that doesn't exist. I need to accept facts and enjoy the world around me, and can't spend all day trying to abide the word of goat herders from 2,000 years ago, and can't focus on the flaws of this world while pining for a fantasy land that's after it.

It's tough being us. Tough, I say.
 
2012-02-25 01:38:01 PM
done in one.
 
2012-02-25 01:48:22 PM

CanisNoir: (Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was born without original sin).


Really? I always just thought it meant "Nobody had to sleep on the wet spot".

/Not a theologian.
 
2012-02-25 02:04:10 PM
TFA: But he added that the Church encourages medical research into infertility.

Uh, what's the point of medical research if they can't use that research for positive effect?
 
2012-02-25 02:07:17 PM

Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.


Enhancement yes, i agree on that. I just hope we stop short of complete replacement.
 
2012-02-25 02:08:01 PM

I Said: I'm certainly willing to believe you, but I request citation. I've never heard of a sect of Christianity that doesn't have this as a major tenant.


Not near my material at the moment, so maybe later I can provide specific citations, however, two of the Gospels trace Jesus' lineage back through Joseph in order to tie him to King David (Which would indicate that Joseph had an active role in Jesus' birth) and Jesus, in his ministries never refers to a "virgin birth" as a sign of his divinity.

In this case, however, The Roman Catholic church does believe in it, however "Virgin Birth", because it does occur in nature, does not equate to artificial means of conception, therefore one can believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus and not be a hypocrite when saying it's wrong to use artificial means of conception. I don't think anyone claims that the Angels brought down a spooge filled tube to Mary when they made the announcement.
 
2012-02-25 02:08:45 PM

Weaver95: also - the more control we have over our own biology the more freedom we've got. Imagine a world where people could look however they'd like - where biology was no longer destiny. gender was a choice, as was skin color or even age.

I'd like to live in a world where people could switch bodies and gender at will or whim, where they could design a child or grow one up naturally or maybe find a middle ground that suited their beliefs. A world where a child could, once they were old enough, decide for themselves what they wanted to look like or enhance.

I wonder what the Catholic church would think of such a world?


Not a Catholic or even a theist at all, but you don't see the problems inherent in some of this?
 
2012-02-25 02:09:34 PM

Weaver95: i'm a transhumanist - I think that not only do we have the right to use technology to overcome biological limitations, I think we have a DUTY to do so. Anything done to enhance and improve the lives of the human race is 'good' in and of itself.


I wager 500 quatloos on the Weaver

img853.imageshack.us
 
2012-02-25 02:11:02 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: They need to keep their monopoly on immaculate conception


Also the whole immaculate conception thing is based on a bad translation of a single word in Hebrew: 'almah'.
it can be 'virgin' but (like it is more common today in hebrew) it also means 'young woman'.
 
2012-02-25 02:11:08 PM
I wish they'd get their story straight. I thought it was "sinners for sex without trying to get pregnant." The bastards are never happy.
 
2012-02-25 02:12:00 PM
Weaver95:

also - the more control we have over our own biology the more freedom we've got. Imagine a world where people could look however they'd like - where biology was no longer destiny. gender was a choice, as was skin color or even age.

I'd like to live in a world where people could switch bodies and gender at will or whim, where they could design a child or grow one up naturally or maybe find a middle ground that suited their beliefs. A world where a child could, once they were old enough, decide for themselves what they wanted to look like or enhance.

I wonder what the Catholic church would think of such a world?


If history is any guide, it will probably go something like this but take a LOOONG time to work through.
 
2012-02-25 02:12:43 PM

I Said: I'm certainly willing to believe you, but I request citation. I've never heard of a sect of Christianity that doesn't have this as a major tenant.


Quakers. Unitarians. I had an interesting talk with some Quakers knowledgeable about their theology, and they said that as their religion currently stands, you don't need to believe in the historic existence of Jesus to be a Quaker. You do need to believe in his precepts and teachings, and live your life in adherence of them.

I like the Quakers, more than a lot for that.
 
2012-02-25 02:12:59 PM
I'm guessing kids conceived without sex just make the priests feel really weird about their boners. Gotta look out for them, right?


/Oddly enough, don't think this earns me a seat.
 
2012-02-25 02:14:24 PM
That's such a retarded view of things. Humans mate the same way many, many other animals do, through sexual reproduction. Yet for some reason ours is supposed to be some divine, special thing, only to be performed within the confines of marriage? What makes our farking so much more special than chimps or dogs or horses or rabbits? Penis goes in vagina, much thrusting occurs, followed by ejaculation and then fertilization. Sure, we get a lot more creative about it, but that's just because we're smarter. The other animals though are under no illusions about their being any dignity or sanctity about it, so it's a toss up as to who does it better.
 
2012-02-25 02:15:21 PM
But conspiring to hide and cover up priests who fark little boys in the ass is ok, right?
 
2012-02-25 02:15:34 PM
This is why traditional religions are dying a loud, angry death. More and more people are waking up to the fact that they offer no answers or comfort in the modern world.

On the flip side, I'm not even that religious and I attend a liberal, northern Baptist church. There is no hate from the pastor, everyone is welcome, and half of ever mass is devoted to how the church as a whole can assist the members that have fallen on hard times. They still offer free day care to all the families displaced by Hurricane Irene. It reminds me each week the person I want to be. Not everyone needs that but I do.

This is what religion and church should be. Not a bunch of old men telling everyone how to live the most intimate details of their lives.
 
2012-02-25 02:18:45 PM

DrBenway: I wish they'd get their story straight. I thought it was "sinners for sex without trying to get pregnant." The bastards are never happy.


He's an elderly virgin who has to dress like Liberace. Dude's just pissed off, and if he can't fark, no one should.
 
2012-02-25 02:23:17 PM

Karac: Reiterating Vatican teaching, he called marriage the only permissible place to conceive children.

Rebuttal:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x278]


dunin1
 
2012-02-25 02:23:33 PM
Benedict cautioned the experts against "easy income, or even worse, the arrogance of taking the place of the Creator," an attitude he indicated underlies the field of artificial procreation. ... The emphasis on science "and the logic of profit seem today to dominate the field of infertility and human procreation," the pope said.

The pope's logic could just as easily explain why it's sinful for sick people to take antibiotics, or for people with cavities to have a dentist halt the spread of tooth decay: the dentists, doctors and antibiotic producers all make money, and isn't it arrogant to make your own decisions about your health rather than let God make the decisions for you?
 
2012-02-25 02:25:00 PM

Lehk: But conspiring to hide and cover up priests who fark little boys in the ass is ok, right?


So long as you ask for God's forgiveness after, yes.
 
2012-02-25 02:25:58 PM
I guess this is why they like sex with altar boys so much: no chance of a conception that goes against the will of God.

Dear Pope and other high muckty-mucks in the Catholic Church: You lost all moral authority to discuss anything remotely related to sex, sexual orientation or reproduction when you decided that it was more important to shelter a group of child abusers than to take the PR hit and turn them in for their just punishment. Your attempts to speak to any "morals" or "values" are done with a forked tongue. If you had any sense of decency or shame you'd STFU, devote your massive fortune to weeding out the evil that is rotting at your core and leave the rest of us alone for the decades it will take for us to begin to forget your actions.
 
2012-02-25 02:25:58 PM
IVF is one of those things that are going to cause a lot of people to question both Catholic dogma and state "Personhood amendments." I've known a few couples who have been though it, and they want children BAD.

IVF is a very brutal process, both physically for the woman and emotionally / spiritually for the couple. It almost never works on the first cycle, and each cycle is a rollercoaster for the prospective parents. People don't do it on a lark, they want a child a heck of a lot more than Terry Randall or the Pope hate destroying embryos.

Try telling those people that they can't have a child. They will tell you to fark off.
 
2012-02-25 02:26:35 PM

I Said: CanisNoir: Karac: Rebuttal:

You might be confusing the belief of Immaculate Conception with that of the Virgin Birth - they are two very different beliefs and not all Christians hold to the tenant of The Virgin Birth. (Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was born without original sin).

I don't find this stance to be all that surprising considering that artificial means of birth would be considered "Playing God" and there's plenty of children out there who could use good adoptive parents.

I'm certainly willing to believe you, but I request citation. I've never heard of a sect of Christianity that doesn't have this as a major tenant.


There are a few, but they're small, and different enough Christologically that it could be argued they are well outside of the mainstream.

He might have meant the perpetual virginity of Mary - that is, she didn't have sex even after Jesus was born. That's a bone (heh) of contention between various denominations/sects of Christianity.

Also, thanks for mentioning the Immaculate Conception != Virgin Birth thing. My Catholic wife never knew that until her agnostic husband explained it to her.
 
2012-02-25 02:28:06 PM
Also, isn't the Bible full of stories of couples who tried to have children for years, who were finally "blessed" by God with a child when they were well advanced in years?
 
2012-02-25 02:28:19 PM

stoli n coke: DrBenway: I wish they'd get their story straight. I thought it was "sinners for sex without trying to get pregnant." The bastards are never happy.

He's an elderly virgin who has to dress like Liberace. Dude's just pissed off, and if he can't fark, no one should.


You mean he didn't get his share of altar boys when he was a cardinal/bishop? Yeah, if I was the only one not getting any in the church, I'd be pretty grouchy, too.
 
2012-02-25 02:28:30 PM

s1ugg0: This is why traditional religions are dying a loud, angry death. More and more people are waking up to the fact that they offer no answers or comfort in the modern world.

On the flip side, I'm not even that religious and I attend a liberal, northern Baptist church. There is no hate from the pastor, everyone is welcome, and half of ever mass is devoted to how the church as a whole can assist the members that have fallen on hard times. They still offer free day care to all the families displaced by Hurricane Irene. It reminds me each week the person I want to be. Not everyone needs that but I do.

This is what religion and church should be. Not a bunch of old men telling everyone how to live the most intimate details of their lives.


If a religious leader doesn't say what you are supposed to do if you are a follower, he is not doing his work right.

This is stupid though. The only advantage this has is avoiding overpopulation. Besides, if the logic is that you are only allowed to have sex to procreate, then inftertile couples shouldn't have relations too? Sex is not only for procreation but for consumating your love. Even the bible said this. However people should understand he is not saying it for bad intentions, he is just doing his work. He is still not a good pope though. John Paul II was better.
 
2012-02-25 02:29:35 PM
I certainly don't think you're doing anything sinful or wrong by using artificial means to conceive, but I do think that people sometimes need to step back and think about what they're doing.

I know someone (a close relative, so no names), who spent thousands of dollars to get pregnant, had a baby, and then spent thousands and thousands more to try and do it again - to the exclusion of paying for things for the existing child and literally bankrupting themselves. Sometimes the drive to have a kid that is your own biological offspring gets in the way of doing the right thing.

Also, there are kids out there who need homes.

(My wife and I had one child biologically and we'd like another child - we're considering both pregnancy and adoption.)
 
2012-02-25 02:29:59 PM
I pray to God the Pope commits suicide.

/does that work for lent?
 
2012-02-25 02:30:23 PM

s1ugg0: This is why traditional religions are dying a loud, angry death. More and more people are waking up to the fact that they offer no answers or comfort in the modern world.

On the flip side, I'm not even that religious and I attend a liberal, northern Baptist church. There is no hate from the pastor, everyone is welcome, and half of ever mass is devoted to how the church as a whole can assist the members that have fallen on hard times. They still offer free day care to all the families displaced by Hurricane Irene. It reminds me each week the person I want to be. Not everyone needs that but I do.

This is what religion and church should be. Not a bunch of old men telling everyone how to live the most intimate details of their lives.


Here here. I'm an atheist UU. I love the church because while they do talk about God, it's not in exclusively Christian terms, and is far more about what you can do in your everyday life to be more "Christ-like," in the ideal sense of the term. I'm really glad we live within walking distance.
 
2012-02-25 02:30:28 PM
This is the reason i just give up on religion. Keep up with technology and the good that it can do or move out of the way.
 
2012-02-25 02:31:01 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Also, isn't the Bible full of stories of couples who tried to have children for years, who were finally "blessed" by God with a child when they were well advanced in years?


Yes there are. Abraham for example. The thing is you can make the argument htat since they were looking for procreation, is not bad.
 
2012-02-25 02:32:22 PM
Watch for Rick Santorum to incorporate this into his next stump speech.
 
2012-02-25 02:32:29 PM
Yet another example of religious derp. Damn it, Catholics are stupid.
 
2012-02-25 02:33:42 PM
Saborlas tells the Pope to f*ck right the hell off and not come back until he's learned how to be relevant.
 
2012-02-25 02:33:43 PM

Lord Dimwit: I certainly don't think you're doing anything sinful or wrong by using artificial means to conceive, but I do think that people sometimes need to step back and think about what they're doing.

I know someone (a close relative, so no names), who spent thousands of dollars to get pregnant, had a baby, and then spent thousands and thousands more to try and do it again - to the exclusion of paying for things for the existing child and literally bankrupting themselves. Sometimes the drive to have a kid that is your own biological offspring gets in the way of doing the right thing.

Also, there are kids out there who need homes.

(My wife and I had one child biologically and we'd like another child - we're considering both pregnancy and adoption.)


Agreed. The fiance and I would like two of our own, or at least two pregnancies (mom had twins without drugs, so there's a good chance I might have a set). If things get really comfortable, we've floated the idea adopting.
 
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