I think its important to point out here, that the fact that we are having this discussion is that the Jewish people survived. I am not a cultural anthropologist, but it is reasonable to presume that there are other cultures/sects that died off, subsumed, or otherwise exterminated. None of this, is of course not relevant to attempts to violently kill a culture/ethic group, merely for the reason they are that group.

themadtupper: fusillade762: justtray: I thought it was clever to fight back a meaningless symbolic ceremony with an equally ridiculous and symbolic ceremony.

This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

I'm neither Jewish nor religious, but nevertheless, I find posthumous baptism to be pretty farking offensive, especially to Jews.

Read Genesis, Exodus, the history of the Inquisition, and Mein Kampf; one of the major themes - perhaps THE major theme - of Judaic history has been people trying to not only kill lots of Jews, but to write them out of history entirely. Seriously, there's roughly 6000 years of Pharaohs and Fuhrers trying to rewrite history such that the Jews never existed.

The Mormons may be well meaning (if you give them the benefit of the doubt, for some reason), but posthumous baptism is no better - from an historical perspective - than the Assyrian diaspora or the Spanish Inquisition. It's an attempt to write Judaism out of history, and it's disgusting.

shivashakti: Why cut off the tip of the hot dog to represent circumcision?
Circumcision doesn't cut the head off the penis.

Maybe if they took a sausage and cut the casing off, it'd be more accurate.

You've put alot of thought into this analogy. Perhaps you should draft some standards for TV broadcasters to simulate circumcisions in a manner that is satisfactory to you. I would subscribe to your newsletter regarding updates to the standard to ensure that I remain in compliance.

That's what I like about Fark. Many different religions or aethiest, but we can all agree to dislike the mormons.

/and hate the $cientologists.

Bob from accounting: Can't think of anything funny? Borrow someone else's material. Hopefully, Bill Maher doesn't go after him for stealing jokes.


Anything that keeps people from having to watch Bill Maher is ok with me.

The Hot Tub Time Machine joke I saw coming from a mile away but laughed out loud anyway.

Stephen Colbert: Proving why catholics rock.

myinternetname: Bob from accounting: Can't think of anything funny? Borrow someone else's material. Hopefully, Bill Maher doesn't go after him for stealing jokes.


Anything that keeps people from having to watch Bill Maher is ok with me.

The Hot Tub Time Machine joke I saw coming from a mile away but laughed out loud anyway.

Well mormon lifestyle isn't bad. It's something I would recommend. I actually liked mormons until I found out what they believed in.

TwistedFark: Trackball: farkingismybusiness: All I know is Mormons are stupid. All of them.

So, A) you don't know much and B) what you do know is false.

Sad...

The mormon dogma and catechism has been thoroughly debunked. It's the same as Scientology. Even if you're one of those wishy washy agnostic types, you have to be either batshiat crazy or retarded to be a Mormon.

//goes for Scientology too.

Along with socialism and communism but they stil have their adherents

Mormons seem much more restrained when others insult their religion. Much more so than other groups, yet they do not even rate a Presidential apology.

FunkOut: tinyarena: fusillade762: This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

Well let's see. Mormons keep vast and detailed genealogical records of anyone on earth, and they perform baptisms on behalf of the deceased , , , nothing odd going on with this bunch of fine folks, nossir

Let's face it. They're tracing all the bloodlines so they can breed the Kwisatz Haderach, a supreme being who can see all possible timelines and all possible jello salad recipes.

Nah, you're thinking of the Kumquat Haagendazs.

Honestly, that skit seemed more insulting to Jews than to Mormons, by implying that a circumcision was all it takes to be Jewish.

Of course, I may be biased because I don't find Mormons baptizing the dead to be particularly offensive. After all, that baptism will only be relevant if Mormon theology is true, and if it is, all it provides is the chance to accept God as He would be revealed to you in full truth. I would think that even a martyr who died for God would be happy for the chance to accept and love God as He really is, even if it turned out that the martyr's perception of God during life was incorrect or incomplete.

If Mormons are wrong, the baptism means nothing and the dead will continue on in Heaven, Hell, rebirth, or unconsciousness, as appropriate. If they are right, it provides a chance to know and love God, and who would not delight in that?

hasty ambush: Along with socialism and communism but they stil have their adherents

Mormons seem much more restrained when others insult their religion. Much more so than other groups, yet they do not even rate a Presidential apology.

Man you really worked in a lot of wingnuttery into that post.

A peek inside the mind of one Mormon male:

Confessions of a Ward Hopper (new window)

Some gems:

These girls all think that because they have good personalities, or good jobs, or are well-educated that guys should care more about who they are than how they look. Someone needs to make them understand that young men will never want to be intimate with them if they're even a little heavy, and they're doomed if they don't lose weight. If these girls understood the world and men, they'd all quit their jobs, drop out of school, and devote themselves soley to losing weight. It's that important. While beauty isn't the only thing that matters in a girl, it is the gateway to the other qualities which no man cares about exploring without the attraction. No amount of makeup will cover a size fifteen dress size.

And:

We sit down at a nice restaurant, and they begin to dawdle on about somebody who's suffering some medical or emotional problem. They then begin to extol the virtues of holistic/herbal medicine and animal rights, which apparently this person who's suffering doesn't understand. I nod in increasing frustration as they begin to praise vegetarianism, then proceed to pontificate about liberalism/feminism/homosexuality from mental notes they took in a humanities class being taught by some gutless, godless, gay, liberal hippee freak at the University of Utah (or follower thereof who they hang out with at Starbucks or somewhere).

fusillade762: So, just to let you all know, I'm currently conducting an arcane ritual that strips everyone who posts in this thread of their soul (I don't even need to know your names, your Fark handles are sufficient for my purposes). This provides me with increased magic powers and guarantees none of you will ever get into heaven. AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME!!! Muwahahahahaaaa!

Too late, I'm already ginger.

The solution is obvious: Israel should go to war against Utah.

EbolaNYC: Lsherm: jeanwearinfool: I'm an atheist, and that seemed overly contrived to me. Not the Colbert I'm used to.

Actually, I thought the whole thing was a little bit mean. I'm Catholic, but probably not as Catholic as Colbert, and he should know the Mormon post baptism isn't an automatic "conversion". It's an offering to the dead for the opportunity to become Mormon in the afterlife (along with seven million other rules).

Colbert is usually pretty good about riding the line between funny and serious, but that whole skit went for a bad Jew joke, a bad generalization about the tenets of Mormon faith, and bad behavior by a Catholic, who shouldn't be making fun of other religions at all.

All religions should be made fun of. Equally. Because they are all equally ridiculous, just in different ways.

LDM90: FunkOut: tinyarena: fusillade762: This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

Well let's see. Mormons keep vast and detailed genealogical records of anyone on earth, and they perform baptisms on behalf of the deceased , , , nothing odd going on with this bunch of fine folks, nossir

Let's face it. They're tracing all the bloodlines so they can breed the Kwisatz Haderach, a supreme being who can see all possible timelines and all possible jello salad recipes.

Nah, you're thinking of the Kumquat Haagendazs.

We must consult the Revved-Up Mother.

fusillade762: justtray: I thought it was clever to fight back a meaningless symbolic ceremony with an equally ridiculous and symbolic ceremony.

This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

This. I'm also in favor of decriminalizing necrophilia and grave robbing, because corpses are just garbage. Nothing I do to a corpse would affect your loved one's soul, so it hurts nothing.

Keizer_Ghidorah: LDM90: FunkOut: tinyarena: fusillade762: This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

Well let's see. Mormons keep vast and detailed genealogical records of anyone on earth, and they perform baptisms on behalf of the deceased , , , nothing odd going on with this bunch of fine folks, nossir

Let's face it. They're tracing all the bloodlines so they can breed the Kwisatz Haderach, a supreme being who can see all possible timelines and all possible jello salad recipes.

Nah, you're thinking of the Kumquat Haagendazs.

We must consult the Revved-Up Mother.

Good God, a Doon reference?

turntable slave: A peek inside the mind of one Mormon male:

Confessions of a Ward Hopper (new window)

Some gems:

These girls all think that because they have good personalities, or good jobs, or are well-educated that guys should care more about who they are than how they look. Someone needs to make them understand that young men will never want to be intimate with them if they're even a little heavy, and they're doomed if they don't lose weight. If these girls understood the world and men, they'd all quit their jobs, drop out of school, and devote themselves soley to losing weight. It's that important. While beauty isn't the only thing that matters in a girl, it is the gateway to the other qualities which no man cares about exploring without the attraction. No amount of makeup will cover a size fifteen dress size.

And:

We sit down at a nice restaurant, and they begin to dawdle on about somebody who's suffering some medical or emotional problem. They then begin to extol the virtues of holistic/herbal medicine and animal rights, which apparently this person who's suffering doesn't understand. I nod in increasing frustration as they begin to praise vegetarianism, then proceed to pontificate about liberalism/feminism/homosexuality from mental notes they took in a humanities class being taught by some gutless, godless, gay, liberal hippee freak at the University of Utah (or follower thereof who they hang out with at Starbucks or somewhere).

Also evidence that this farker, if he expects these women to drop everything else in their lives for the superficial goal to lose weight, needs to do the same...but with Rogaine and a psychiatric evaluation:

"I have thinning brown hair and blue eyes that are so piercing that sometimes I find whole rooms of people falling silent and staring at them as I enter. I like to think I'm attractive and smart; but, in moments of pain and failure, I realize that I am not as attractive and smart as I've convinced myself I am. I am constantly stressed about cases, clients, being single, money and my habitual disorganization. My apartment is a disaster, and so are my cars. My father is a convert to the Church, and totally devout. He is in the Stake Presidency, and wants me to get married very much. I want to honor his wishes."

Just...wow....

So are all dead Mormons now gay Jews?

Hell, while we're at it, I hereby baptize all dead Mormons as members of the brand new Church of Pedophilia and Bestiality. Please note I am not saying they were or are now pedophiles or zoophiles, they are just members of the Church. Oh, and the Church totally supports both, especially at the same time. But hey, they can still decline my blessing. Unfortunately, I am still going to record their name here on this permanent ledger of members.

shivashakti: Why cut off the tip of the hot dog to represent circumcision?
Circumcision doesn't cut the head off the penis.

Maybe if they took a sausage and cut the casing off, it'd be more accurate.

Not the head of the penis, just the tip of the foreskin. I was once chatting with a guy from Israel who for some reason told me he was circumcised in this manner. Even though they didn't cut much off, he was still pissed about it.

The more extreme version where they cut off all the skin around the head wasn't practiced until around the second century. I don't know how common it is in the middle east anymore, but it's what doctors in the US started doing in the 19th century.

The whole "proxy baptism" issue doesn't convert them to Mormonism. It is simply a rite that revolves around the idea that all must me baptized. The belief is that you can accept or reject the proxy service in the hereafter. They aren't recording them as being converts. They are recording them, as having the rites done. Of course, people being baptized 8-9 times would lead to some shoddy record keeping, and would make me believe that the leaders of the LDS church should strip offenders of the right to go to the temple. It is offensive, and not even necessary. As to those recommending violent action against Mormons, you aren't the first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44.

tinyarena: fusillade762: This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

Well let's see. Mormons keep vast and detailed genealogical records of anyone on earth, and they perform baptisms on behalf of the deceased , , , nothing odd going on with this bunch of fine folks, nossir

Yet being odd does not mean anyone is harmed.

If the Mormons are wrong, nothing bad happened to you, no matter what your religion is. If you were right and you are in whatever afterlife is, you're still there. There is not a single religion that says "But we'll kick you out of heaven if those bastard Mormons perform a baptism for you without your participation or consent."

If they're right then they did you a huge favor.

I think the ceremony and religion are as stupid as hell, but the outrage over this issue outweighs the harm.

I do think baptisms for holocaust survivors AND Hitler is a bit tacky though.

SharkTrager: tinyarena: fusillade762: This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

Well let's see. Mormons keep vast and detailed genealogical records of anyone on earth, and they perform baptisms on behalf of the deceased , , , nothing odd going on with this bunch of fine folks, nossir

Yet being odd does not mean anyone is harmed.

If the Mormons are wrong, nothing bad happened to you, no matter what your religion is. If you were right and you are in whatever afterlife is, you're still there. There is not a single religion that says "But we'll kick you out of heaven if those bastard Mormons perform a baptism for you without your participation or consent."

If they're right then they did you a huge favor.

I think the ceremony and religion are as stupid as hell, but the outrage over this issue outweighs the harm.

I do think baptisms for holocaust survivors AND Hitler is a bit tacky though.

What difference does it make, given your earlier statement that it doesn't matter anyways?

Either there is something after this life and everything from weirdos playing games with our souls to weirdos sticking their dicks in our corpses matters, or there isn't and neither matter, regardless of the corpse, regardless of the feelings of the family of the dead, regardless of what the dead did in life, and regardless of what the dead thought while alive and their wishes for their body and soul after death.

Now, I now the majority of people in my country believe the former, that souls exist, there is an afterlife, and burial crap matters. Given that believe, it is perfectly natural and expected that they should get upset at a bunch of pagan cultists farking around with their dead.

So there are really three options:
1. Corpses are garbage and souls don't exist. There should be no protections.
2. Corpses aren't garbage and souls do exist and should have protections.
3. We don't decide whether one or two is correct, but we respect the religious beliefs of all people and we don't allow one religion to act against the will of another with regards to their dead; that we treat one religion's freedom and right to save souls as something that ends when it meets up with another religion's right to protect the souls belonging to that religion. Your religious right to swing your spiritual fists should end where my spiritual face begins?

Darth Macho: fusillade762: justtray: I thought it was clever to fight back a meaningless symbolic ceremony with an equally ridiculous and symbolic ceremony.

This. I don't get the whole controversy. It seems like an elaborate version of the "I got your nose" thing. If you don't believe Mormonism is the "True" religion why would you be bothered by some silly ceremony?

Let's start with the absolute microscopic point: Converting someone via their grave is insulting to the family of the deceased.

Zoom out x3: It's not the first time a Mormon has converted a dead person.

Zoom out x5: Apparently converting the deceased is a 'thing' Mormons do.

Enhance image: The Mormon faith has a quasi-official policy of disrespecting graveyards and flagrantly attacking the universal social code of bereavement.

Filter: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has had a history of carefully revising the distasteful and outrageous faith-ordained habits of their membership (read: Polygamy). They've got experience in stopping Mormons from pissing off the public. There is no excuse for the LDS refusing to stop its people from grave baptism unless the organization endorses the practice.

Analysis: At the very least this puts the LDS organization in the same ethical valley as the funeral protestors of the Westboro Baptist Church. That kind of antisocial behavior has no place in the 21st Century and the organization rightly deserves the traditional media assault.

I'd like to know what y'all mean by 'grave baptism." The LDS Church has no such practice. The proxy baptism for the dead is done not at a gravesite, but in one of the LDS temples worldwide. Can you please explain why the LDS are being compared to the Westboro Baptist Church in this instance, and what you mean by "grave baptism" and "disrespecting graveyards"?

Tergiversada: I'd like to know what y'all mean by 'grave baptism." The LDS Church has no such practice. The proxy baptism for the dead is done not at a gravesite, but in one of the LDS temples worldwide. Can you please explain why the LDS are being compared to the Westboro Baptist Church in this instance, and what you mean by "grave baptism" and "disrespecting graveyards"?

Re: 'Grave baptism'. I'm just using it as a euphemism for whatever the LDS does. Sprinkle holy water over a grave, submit a name for blessing, whatever. If there's a universal name for the practice I'll use that.

Re: Westboro Baptist Church analogy. The WBC intrude upon private funeral ceremonies to insert their church's specific message where it doesn't belong. They do it knowing they are in opposition to the wishes of the deceased's family. Death ceremonies, despite having clear differences among cultures and faiths, are universally and historically respected by all societies as sacrosanct. Put simply, we respect the dead.

Leaving aside metaphysical and / or spiritual concerns and looking at this from the living world, the LDS are imposing their church's ideals into the memorial / funeral system. When you use the good reputations of dead nonbelievers to bolster the message of your church you are just as intrusive and antagonistic as the WBC funeral protestors.

As an aside, here in California the LDS dumped millions of dollars to promote a law banning same-sex marriage, their position being that it's a universal social custom with which we should not tamper. And yet here they are willing to poke their noses into the process by which we remember the dead; a custom stretching back to long before there was even a concept of God, let alone a church.

Whether you're a Mormon, Jewish, believer or atheist you should be upset with the LDS metaphorically spraying their territory over people's tombstones.

P.S. It's a huge disservice to the faith that a corpse with a living sponsor and zero Mormon commitments has the same opportunity for God's grace as a pious believer who spent his whole life not drinking coffee and wearing magic underwear.

On 21 February the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints released an official statement regarding the proxy baptism policy concerning Holocaust survivors.

Church Statement on Violations of Proxy Baptism Policy

Salt Lake City -
In response to questions about violations of the Church's proxy baptism policy, the Church issued the following statement:


The Church keeps its word and is absolutely firm in its commitment to not accept the names of Holocaust victims for proxy baptism.

It takes a good deal of deception and manipulation to get an improper submission through the safeguards we have put in place.

While no system is foolproof in preventing the handful of individuals who are determined to falsify submissions, we are committed to taking action against individual abusers by suspending the submitter's access privileges. We will also consider whether other Church disciplinary action should be taken.

It is distressing when an individual willfully violates the Church's policy and something that should be understood to be an offering based on love and respect becomes a source of contention.