Gibson imports rosewood from India
Indian rosewood is not endangered and is legal to import in the US
India has regulations, to protect local industry, that says Rosewood veneers must be thinner than a certain maximum thickness to be exported, but other than that, India has a thriving Rosewood logging industry.
India exporters sell Rosewood veneers to Gibson that exceed that maximum dimension
US Fish and Wildlife Service raid Gibson and confiscate all their contraband rosewood.

My understanding is that the Lacey Act was originally intended to protect Endangered Species. If a foreign country declared a species endangered or threatened, then rightly so, the Lacey Act prevents US Industry from trading in products made from the species.

But now, because of poor wording, the Lacey Act is being used to prosecute companies, not for using endangered or threatened species, but common products, but are in a form that the originating country regulates.

Similar case a few years ago, a lobster importer was prosecuted for Lacey violation because the labels didn't meet the regulations of the exporting country. When it all died down, the exporting country admitted that the regulation was old and no longer enforced on their exporters. But still a technical violation for the American, and a successful prosecution for the US Attorney on the case.

Lacey Act needs to be addressed. It is a waste of time for the US to try and make sure that the products that US companies purchase meet the export requirements of every country in the world. If it isn't declared endangered or threatened, and the exporting country sells it, US companies shouldn't have to worry about whether the exporter complies with all laws of his country. That is his country's issue.

Chagrin: assuming they did violate the Lacey Act

Yeah, you see that's kind of the problem right there. Generally speaking in this country we don't just assume people are guilty of committing a crime. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence. You may recall something written into the Constitution that says no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. Due process requires, at a minimum, notice and an opportunity to be heard before a neutral magistrate. Gibson has had neither. They were found guilty by an administrative agency and had their property seized with out any chance to respond to the accusations. That's not how we do things here.

At some point the federal government decided that it was just too damn expensive and inconvenient to have to provide people accused or regulatory offenses any due process before taking their property. So now what they do is take the property as soon as they think there might be an offense, and then they mail you a complaint in a couple of years to let you know why they took it and if/when you'll be able to get it back.

When a republican administration does this, especially if it's enforcing something related to drug laws or other laws that tend to disproportionately impact minority groups, liberals get all worked up about it, and conservatives say "What, should we just let them profit by breaking the law?"

When a democratic administration does the same thing, especially if it's enforcing environmental laws or other laws that tend to disproportionately impact small businesses, conservatives get all worked up about it, and liberals say "What, should we just let them profit by breaking the law?"

And in this way, the government gets to keep ignoring the Constitution and the rights of individuals, because the government knows that the average citizen (at least as reflected by posts on FARK) cares more about if their 'side' is winning than they do about the rights of people on the other 'side'.

Who cares about 'Reason' and the 'Unions?' The government confiscated $500,000 worth of product saying that Gibson had violated other countries laws. Those countries say Gibson DIDN'T didn't violate their laws.

This is the second time they've raided. The first raid was in 2009 and Gibson never received their wood or confiscated guitars back from that raid either. Gibson has filed a lawsuit to receive that product back.

They give money to GOP candidates. The other companies are all Democratic.

Noticeably F.A.T.: mrlewish: So just because they didn't ticket all the speeders my speeding ticket is invalid?

This is more like a cop ignoring all other obviously speeding cars on the road, pulling you over, then making you sit on the side of the road for a few hours while not actually giving you a ticket. If you were actually speeding then you deserve a ticket, but in that case why didn't you get a ticket, and why was everyone else ignored?

It's actually a lot worse than that. If Gibson is found to be innocent, the guitars will be returned. But guitars aren't a commodity like bricks or two by fours. They are like cars in that the latest models are worth more than the ones that are a year older. They are also like artwork, in that if they are not stored correctly, the quality of the instrument can degrade. Even something as simple as leaning a guitar in the wrong direction for a month can cause the neck serious damage. I doubt the feds know or care how to store guitars correctly, at the right temp, humidity level, and with the correct neck tension. It's no joke that those guitars may be worth 10% of their original value by now.

So Gibson has lost 500k worth of merchandise, may never recover it, and has yet to be charged with a crime. This is BS.

mrlewish: So just because they didn't ticket all the speeders my speeding ticket is invalid?

How about if they took your car, never bothered to give you a ticket, and refused to give it back?

Lando Lincoln: MoeSzyslak: Codenamechaz: Could possibly be that most investigations can take longer than 6 months before formal charges are filed?

Hell, the Megaupload case was going over a year before they finally arrested someone.

How many raids did they make six months before they were ready to arrest someone in the Megaupload case?

Obviously this is all because of unions. Ayup.

When did I say anything about unions? The problem here is that the federal government raided, shutdown, and stole a half million dollars of product from a private company without so much as charging them with a crime or allowing them to attempt to get their property back. But for dickheads like you this isn't of any consequence because you have no problem with the government shiatting all over the constitution when it's a democrat administration. I'm sure the fact that it's happening to an evil nonunion company only pleases you that much more.

Lando Lincoln: They used to be pretty rational. Now they just print crap. Maybe Murdoch bought them.

No, they still run good articles, but the Fark "I'm posting on my iPad from Sociology 101" brigade no longer thinks that questioning authority is cool now that a Democrat is in office.

cefm: It would seem that sending a "cease & desist" letter would have been much more appropriate than wasting all the time and $ on a raid - when there was zero reason to believe that the subject had any violent tendencies.

BORING!



That's more like it.

It would seem that sending a "cease & desist" letter would have been much more appropriate than wasting all the time and $ on a raid - when there was zero reason to believe that the subject had any violent tendencies.

So just because they didn't ticket all the speeders my speeding ticket is invalid?

Oh shut up, Reason, you cocks!

Could possibly be that most investigations can take longer than 6 months before formal charges are filed?

Hell, the Megaupload case was going over a year before they finally arrested someone.

Albertan: Why are you Americans enforcing Madagascan regulations,and what are they guilty of if Madagascar says it's legal?

Madagascar did not say it was legal. Granted the Madagascar government was (and is) in a lot of turmoil, but when the consortium of guitar manufacturers visited Madagascar they witnessed logging being done right in the middle of national forests.

Why do Americans enforce foreign regulations? Aside from the fact that we signed an international treaty, we do it for the same reason why we prohibit the import of rhinoceros horns or panda furs or want to stop the export of loggerhead turtle shells or bald eagle feathers.

Fark Libs: the article is not about letting me smoke Pot so Reason is racist.

Chagrin: Just to review the facts of this recent seizure:

1) India prohibits the export of any natively-harvested wood over 6mm thick per law signed in 2009.
2) Gibson agrees that the wood was natively-harvested in India.
3) The shipment in question was identified in US Customs as 10mm thick (and conveniently fretboard length and width).

What part of this is confusing or do you think was insufficient to trigger the raid?

Admittedly, the stuff that's confusing is why the shipment was labeled as being under 6mm thick, why the shipment was labeled as having an ultimate destination in Germany, and why the shipment was being managed by a third party that wanted to be notified of the shipment's arrival in US Customs so it could tell the warehouse to ship it to Gibson. I'd assume this kind of shenanigan is illegal above and beyond just a violation of the Lacey Act.


It took this long for something so simple to be posted. Great post.

Just to review the facts of this recent seizure:

1) India prohibits the export of any natively-harvested wood over 6mm thick per law signed in 2009.
2) Gibson agrees that the wood was natively-harvested in India.
3) The shipment in question was identified in US Customs as 10mm thick (and conveniently fretboard length and width).

What part of this is confusing or do you think was insufficient to trigger the raid?

Admittedly, the stuff that's confusing is why the shipment was labeled as being under 6mm thick, why the shipment was labeled as having an ultimate destination in Germany, and why the shipment was being managed by a third party that wanted to be notified of the shipment's arrival in US Customs so it could tell the warehouse to ship it to Gibson. I'd assume this kind of shenanigan is illegal above and beyond just a violation of the Lacey Act.

weiserfireman: Gibson imports rosewood from India. Indian rosewood is not endangered and is legal to import in the US.

India has regulations, to protect local industry, that says Rosewood veneers must be thinner than a certain maximum thickness to be exported, but other than that, India has a thriving Rosewood logging industry.

India exporters sell Rosewood veneers to Gibson that exceed that maximum dimension
US Fish and Wildlife Service raid Gibson and confiscate all their contraband rosewood.

This is part of it. From what I also understand, Gibson circumvented shipping and import laws by having the materials sent to a 3rd party import/export firm in LA without any mention of Gibson as the final destination on the original manifest; as any import/export person will tell you, this is a huge no-no and by itself can trigger a raid. Hence why the raw materials were originally confiscated in Los Angeles, and also causing a raid on Gibson HQ.

And, yes, Henry is known as a huge flake.

"Dept. of Homeland Security" on guitar factory raid involving unfinished wood...? Letting your parking meter run out will soon be considered "helping the terrorists." Bend over, Citizens, and welcome to Cuba.

RexTalionis: MoeSzyslak: What about TFA do you find hard farking nutter right or made up? Do you have a problem with the government raiding, shutting down, and confiscating $500,00 worth of materials (for the second time) without charging them with a crime or allowing them the means to try and get their stuff back? If not why?

Investigations take time. In fact, Gibson and Reason should be well aware of how long it can be between raid and any indictment or civil complaints, since Gibson was raided in 2009 for knowingly buying illegally harvested hardwoods from Madagascar and it took nearly two years for the civil indictment to be handed down.

The whole "it's been a whole six months, why are they taking so long" spin of the article is disingenuous.

Yeah, that's not how the law works under that pesky constitution. The government has the right to send in someone to inspect your business, but they don't have the right to seize your product and then years later decide whether to file charges.

BalugaJoe: They give money to GOP candidates. The other companies are all Democratic.

Scandals only matter to Democrats when it's GOP corruption involved. Everything else is a distraction, overblown, conspiracy theory.

Lando Lincoln: 32oz High Life: I don't get it. I consider myself to be a liberal - which side should I be rooting for? Someone help me out here...

If Reason is complaining about it, chances are better than 50/50 that you don't need to worry about it, because it's mostly bullshiat.

Liberal ignorance is an amusing form of ignorance.

Communist_Manifesto: What exactly is a "Union State"? Unions aren't illegal, even if you would like them to be.

I take the term Union state to mean closed shop states. The country is pretty much split between "closed shop" and "right-to-work" states.

(Blue are right to work, grey are closed shop. Map comes from the right to work page on Wikipedia)

So yes, factories, in right to work states, that doesn't use union labor, being raided could raise suspicion if factories in closed shop states, violating the same laws, are left untouched.

The same discussion comes up when a company seeks to build a new factory in a right to work state. Union supporters complain that they are trying to avoid union labor by not building it in a closed shop space. Example (new window)

Please note, I am not taking sides on either story, nor am I involving possible law violations in either case.

Communist_Manifesto: The_Six_Fingered_Man: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/teachers-unions-outla w ed-in-some-states-1092895.html

Huh, well I'll be. I was more referring to a state totally banning all unions but I guess I was technically wrong.

More typically, a "Union State" is a state that does not prohibit "Union Security Agreements".

Basically in those states, you can be forced to join a union or pay union fees based only on the fact that your trade or position has been collectively bargained.

/Union Security Agreements are one of the abused tools that give unions a bad name
//The opposite is Right-to-Work, which is one of the abused tools that gives employers a bad name
///In an ideal world, those who wanted collective bargaining would join a union and shut up about freeloaders, and those who wanted to go solo would be free to negotiate and stop complaining about the unions
////Virgules

Gibson needs to lawyer up and sue the shiat out of the DOJ.

Actually, they need to get one the GOP oriented superPACs to use the raid in mud slinging. But that won't be relevant until after the GOP convention.

moothemagiccow: Communist_Manifesto: What exactly is a "Union State"? Unions aren't illegal, even if you would like them to be.

do your homework bru, plenty of places outlaw it

Yeah you're going to have to point them out because I haven't been able to find any evidence of that.

scarmig: God I *still* feel so much safer now that those rogue guitar parts are off the streets.

Epiphone is the Gibson entry-level brand, not Rogue.

lacrossestar83: Oh shut up, Reason, you cocks!

*gets upset about Patriot Act*

If the Lacey Act is being enforced selectively to give politically-connected companies an advantage over others that lack such connections, I'm absolutely opposed to the practice. However, there's no convincing proof (at least that's yet been shared with us) that that is the case in the Gibson seizure(s).

The discussion of this story seems to be dominated by Gibson's own public statements on it, and the proxy outrage of anti-regulatory outlets like the Heritage Network. The Madagascar case is working its way through the court system now; it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

And by 'interesting', I mean 'mundane, tedious discussion of how the term 'finished' should be interpreted in the context of materials imported into the United States for use in the construction of musical instruments'.

Is that closet door from India?

Codenamechaz: Could possibly be that most investigations can take longer than 6 months before formal charges are filed?

Hell, the Megaupload case was going over a year before they finally arrested someone.

How many raids did they make six months before they were ready to arrest someone in the Megaupload case?

"Union states"? Subby sounds butthurt.