FARK.com: (6955976) Virginia Governor Robert F. McDonnell, after being featured on The Daily Show for his support of the post-rape vaginal probe bill, would like to take some time to take a long, hard look at the issue and possibly reconsider his position

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		Virginia Governor Robert F. McDonnell, after being featured on The Daily Show for his support of the post-rape vaginal probe bill, would like to take some time to take a long, hard look at the issue and possibly reconsider his position (washingtonpost.com)		370
		More: Dumbass, Governor of Virginia, Bob McDonnell, Virginia, Virginians, abortions

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Thoroughly With Foil		2012-02-22 12:14:49 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Thoroughly With Foil: Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

It's murder in the same way that peeing is murder. You're killing dead human tissue when you do that, don't you know?

Which part of that don't you understand?

factoryconnection		2012-02-22 12:14:50 PM

oakleym82: That was only a small piece of my argument taken out of context. Abortion is a politically charged subject. Colonoscopies are not. Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

This is an odd tack, as it assumes the law is based on a glaring failure of OB/GYNs administering late-term abortions to patients they thought were in only the first trimester. That's a failure of the state-licensed group of doctors; why then is this requirement placed on the patient? Why is it a requirement that the patient view the image (or sign a legal document that they refused)?

I'm all about looking at this from the other side, which you appear to be doing, but you're assuming a basis that isn't present. Also, the ultrasound is to show and measure the implanted fetus. Embryos in addition to being a few cells at most aren't implanted and are thus pretty much impossible to find.

SarahBW		2012-02-22 12:15:01 PM

Good for him. McDonnell is a good egg.

oakleym82		2012-02-22 12:15:15 PM

The Homer Tax: oakleym82: That was only a small piece of my argument taken out of context. Abortion is a politically charged subject. Colonoscopies are not. Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

I don't care what you think about the law, I can't verify your statement that only embryonic abortions are legal in VA. Your whole line of reasoning is based on a premise that, from what I can tell, is completely false.

Does it matter if it's 1st or 2nd trimester? Is the law requiring the trans-vaginal ultrasound when the regular one can suffice in the 2nd trimester?

Fark It		2012-02-22 12:15:54 PM

Thoroughly With Foil: cameroncrazy1984: Thoroughly With Foil: Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

It's murder in the same way that peeing is murder. You're killing dead human tissue when you do that, don't you know?

Which part of that don't you understand?

The "magic is real, clumps of tissue have souls" part.

Why aren't you doing anything to stop these murders, coward?

oakleym82		2012-02-22 12:15:55 PM

Ehcks: oakleym82: Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

But why does that even matter?

Because of the law i linked to above. (new window)

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:15:56 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Anecdotal evidence is a KIND of evidence!

I didn't want to assume these fine women to be liars. Why do you?

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:16:58 PM

cameroncrazy1984: What else would you call putting an object in someone's vagina without their consent

If you are living in a state where that is the law, and consenting to have an abortion, you are consenting to the TVU.
Ta-Da!

valar_morghulis		2012-02-22 12:17:17 PM

CapnBlues: valar_morghulis: CapnBlues: valar_morghulis: No, you aren't. You're a clever troll.

if the gentleman is a troll, he's at least from the finer class of them around here. not just utterly vile and rude. He'll talk with you mostly respectfully and humorously, and sometimes peeks around the curtain and can be fun and funny.

I wonder what it's like on the other side, Where the Wild Trolls Are. A random-sounding username and Logic 101 textbook your constant companion.

i dabbled at one point, but I couldn't do it. I kept thinking of the people on the other side of it, taking me seriously and getting really angry. It's not even fun. You just picture these good people, not realizing that they're being trolled, and they're all getting angry and losing hope in the species because of the crap you're saying. It's toxic, the way a lot of them do it. Then there are the ones who mean it, and that... that's even sadder, but perhaps less destructive. A sincere person may be amenable to some kind of actual reasoning, evidence, that sort of thing. You can argue with a troll all day and he'll never change his mind, because he's playing the part of a character who is incapable of changing his mind.

Thinking back on it, I am sad. I want to find the people I trolled and apologize to them, each of them, personally. Maybe I'll do that.

Who has time to adopt such a lifestyle? Trolls must be bored retirees or kids still living with parents.

theorellior		2012-02-22 12:17:24 PM

greentea1985		2012-02-22 12:18:00 PM

BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

I'd add in an exception for the mother's life being at risk. Something sudden like a placental abruption will require an abortion to save the mother's life. Of course, you usually know this at least 6 months in, but an exception for a life or death situation will be required.

The Homer Tax		2012-02-22 12:18:38 PM

oakleym82: Does it matter if it's 1st or 2nd trimester? Is the law requiring the trans-vaginal ultrasound when the regular one can suffice in the 2nd trimester?

If you only need that particular invasive procedure to "verify the age" of something that's clearly under the legal age limit, then you don't need to do the invasive procedure at all.

oakleym82		2012-02-22 12:19:45 PM

factoryconnection: This is an odd tack, as it assumes the law is based on a glaring failure of OB/GYNs administering late-term abortions to patients they thought were in only the first trimester.

My mistake. Only 3rd trimester is unlawful.

That's a failure of the state-licensed group of doctors; why then is this requirement placed on the patient? Why is it a requirement that the patient view the image (or sign a legal document that they refused)?

Texas is where you have to look at the image, not VA.

I'm all about looking at this from the other side, which you appear to be doing, but you're assuming a basis that isn't present. Also, the ultrasound is to show and measure the implanted fetus. Embryos in addition to being a few cells at most aren't implanted and are thus pretty much impossible to find.

So again, playing devil's advocate, how would you know that nothing is there unless you look?

Coming on a Bicycle		2012-02-22 12:19:47 PM

Ah. Someone didn't know that for a certain, early, period of pregnancy, all ultrasounds go through the cooter. Right.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:19:56 PM

I drunk what: s2s2s2: Oh it's just a funneh from a movie. Relax.

stop trying to regulate other peoples emotions

let them choose

Advising of options available is not regulation.

factoryconnection		2012-02-22 12:20:23 PM

Thoroughly With Foil: Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

So what have you done, since this is so important to you? Have you written your congressman to get education funding and contraception funding shored up? Have you advocated for mandatory paternity testing to ensure child support by runaway fathers? Have you adopted any of these kids that are unwanted? Have you advocated for changes in adoption law to help both those that have unplanned pregnancies and those that want babies? It can be incredibly difficult and expensive to adopt a baby, and still experience the risk of it being taken away.

So what are you doing to stop this bloodshed?

CapnBlues		2012-02-22 12:20:42 PM

valar_morghulis: CapnBlues: valar_morghulis: CapnBlues: valar_morghulis: No, you aren't. You're a clever troll.

if the gentleman is a troll, he's at least from the finer class of them around here. not just utterly vile and rude. He'll talk with you mostly respectfully and humorously, and sometimes peeks around the curtain and can be fun and funny.

I wonder what it's like on the other side, Where the Wild Trolls Are. A random-sounding username and Logic 101 textbook your constant companion.

i dabbled at one point, but I couldn't do it. I kept thinking of the people on the other side of it, taking me seriously and getting really angry. It's not even fun. You just picture these good people, not realizing that they're being trolled, and they're all getting angry and losing hope in the species because of the crap you're saying. It's toxic, the way a lot of them do it. Then there are the ones who mean it, and that... that's even sadder, but perhaps less destructive. A sincere person may be amenable to some kind of actual reasoning, evidence, that sort of thing. You can argue with a troll all day and he'll never change his mind, because he's playing the part of a character who is incapable of changing his mind.

Thinking back on it, I am sad. I want to find the people I trolled and apologize to them, each of them, personally. Maybe I'll do that.

Who has time to adopt such a lifestyle? Trolls must be bored retirees or kids still living with parents.

Yeah, it was frustrating to work so hard at something that I found odious. I don't recommend the experience.

oakleym82		2012-02-22 12:21:29 PM

The Homer Tax: oakleym82: Does it matter if it's 1st or 2nd trimester? Is the law requiring the trans-vaginal ultrasound when the regular one can suffice in the 2nd trimester?

If you only need that particular invasive procedure to "verify the age" of something that's clearly under the legal age limit, then you don't need to do the invasive procedure at all.

I'm convinced. Devil's advocacy over. This bill is stupid through and through.

The Homer Tax, you win the thread.

Fark It		2012-02-22 12:21:36 PM

s2s2s2: I drunk what: s2s2s2: Oh it's just a funneh from a movie. Relax.

stop trying to regulate other peoples emotions

let them choose

Advising of options available is not regulation.

"Your honor, it wasn't rape, I was advising her of her options."

fappomatic		2012-02-22 12:21:37 PM

pisceandreamer: Fark It: I'm repeating this from a redlit thread:

Am I the only one wondering how they will enforce this? You basically need a bachelor's at minimum in order to do ultrasound work, plus spend more training once you've narrowed down your sub-specialty (OBGYN, Cardiac, etc). The people who are licensed to do this type of procedure are pretty much all women, and not mouthbreathers.

Who's going to bet that most of them are just going to sit there and pretend to do the procedure and set the would-be victims on their way? I don't see any of these Republican twunt-muffins who support this stepping forward to get their cooters poked to ensure regulatory compliance.

I suspect that an image from the ultrasound will be required in the file.

It is...and failure to comply results in criminal charges and fines for the MD.

cameroncrazy1984: s2s2s2: cameroncrazy1984: But not pro giving a woman a choice to have the non-medically necessary ultrasound, apparently.

I'm not necessarily pro-this procedure. I am a bit averse to comparing it to rape.

What else would you call putting an object in someone's vagina without their consent, and it's not medically necessary? Sure sounds like rape to me.

Actually, certain physical circumstances may require an internal ultrasound to accurately determine fetal age.

What gets me is the bill indicates that, if a clear fetal image isn't possible, fetal age calculations based on fetal sack saize is acceptable. Talk about ambiguous legislation.

I don't support the bills but I would urge everyone to read the proposed legislature instead of getting information from the media.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:21:51 PM

valar_morghulis: Trolls must be

Nope.

JackieRabbit		2012-02-22 12:22:23 PM

Understandable waffling.

VA Attorney General: "You gonna lose in the Supreme Court!"

Campaign Manager: "You gonna lose the election!!!!!"

McDonnell: "When I said I'd give this bill my unconditional support, I meant that I had conditions and am no longer sure that I can support it."

The Homer Tax		2012-02-22 12:22:53 PM

oakleym82: So again, playing devil's advocate, how would you know that nothing is there unless you look?

What is this, I don't even.

How do you know that "nothing" is "there unless you look?" What the fark cliff of logic have you jumped off of at this point?

If a woman is pregnant and she wants to get an abortion, and she is early enough in her pregnancy that an abdominal ultrasound cannot be performed, then what exactly are you "verifying" through shoving a wand up her coot?

Other than the fact that she needs to be *punished* for being a dirty, dirty slut, consarnit!

ksjones		2012-02-22 12:23:06 PM

Thoroughly With Foil: ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: : Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.

and that is something only women should have to worry about? it takes 2 to tango, bucko.

hear that all hetero men? don't you dare stick your dick in vag if you are ready and capable of supporting a child

Never said only women had to worry about it, I support your position on males as well. If you want to have sex, you should be fully prepared for the consequences of your actions - both men & women.

ah, see, now you're arguing personal responsibility... while trying to limit the extent that one can exercise their personal responsibility.

why should what anyone else does with their body concern you (or anyone else) at all?

Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

tax dollars argument is a cop-out. there are a few things my tax dollars support that i don't agree with, but i don't try to take away anyone's rights and freedoms, because i'm not a twunt.

factoryconnection		2012-02-22 12:23:29 PM

oakleym82: So again, playing devil's advocate, how would you know that nothing is there unless you look?

The positive pregnancy test is pretty conclusive. The fact that someone has come in for an abortion is another likely sign.

valar_morghulis		2012-02-22 12:23:42 PM

s2s2s2: valar_morghulis: Trolls must be

Nope.

Hush; the adults are talking.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:23:52 PM

Fark It: "Your honor, it wasn't rape, I was advising her of her options."

Telling someone to "relax" never will be rape. Raping someone while telling them to relax is rape, but the telling them to relax part still isn't rape.

The Homer Tax		2012-02-22 12:23:55 PM

oakleym82: The Homer Tax, you win the thread.

Yes! Time to go buy homebrew supplies with my winnings!

Fark It		2012-02-22 12:25:40 PM

s2s2s2: Fark It: "Your honor, it wasn't rape, I was advising her of her options."

Telling someone to "relax" never will be rape. Raping someone while telling them to relax is rape, but the telling them to relax part still isn't rape.

Right, and this bill mandates forcible vaginal penetration for women who are seeking a medical procedure that they have a legal right to have. Rape. Pretty cut and dry.

God's Hubris		2012-02-22 12:25:48 PM

BFletch651: God's Hubris: meanmutton: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

All 100% reasonable, a very good way to deal with the issues, which is why no one will ever accept it.

Reasonable for reasonable people. Free birth control will set off the fundies like nobody's business, though. All they will see is a govt-sponsored promiscuous lifestyle.

As it stands, there are about 5M live births in this country in a year, and about 1.2M abortions. Thats a lot of abortions, and present restrictions are apparently not reducing that number.

One thing that would: abstinance. Good luck making that work.

Next best thing: birth control. Lots of it, free for everyone, no questions asked. Why should anyone support this? For the only reason that matters; it would actually reduce ABORTIONS.

Republican lawmakes could get behind that, if they were actually interested in reducing the number of abortions and not just getting reelected.

Thoroughly With Foil		2012-02-22 12:26:11 PM

theorellior: Thoroughly With Foil: Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

What's your take on contraception?

I'm fine with it, but let me just jump ahead & clear up that I don't support premarital sex.

theorellior		2012-02-22 12:27:25 PM

The Homer Tax: oakleym82: The Homer Tax, you win the thread.

Yes! Time to go buy homebrew supplies with my winnings!

Which homebrew supplier takes Internets as payment?

Thoroughly With Foil		2012-02-22 12:27:36 PM

ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: : Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.

and that is something only women should have to worry about? it takes 2 to tango, bucko.

hear that all hetero men? don't you dare stick your dick in vag if you are ready and capable of supporting a child

Never said only women had to worry about it, I support your position on males as well. If you want to have sex, you should be fully prepared for the consequences of your actions - both men & women.

ah, see, now you're arguing personal responsibility... while trying to limit the extent that one can exercise their personal responsibility.

why should what anyone else does with their body concern you (or anyone else) at all?

Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

tax dollars argument is a cop-out. there are a few things my tax dollars support that i don't agree with, but i don't try to take away anyone's rights and freedoms, because i'm not a twunt.

Where am I trying to take away anyone's rights & freedoms? Haven't you heard? I'm a coward who does nothing.

oakleym82		2012-02-22 12:28:08 PM

The Homer Tax: oakleym82: The Homer Tax, you win the thread.

Yes! Time to go buy homebrew supplies with my winnings!

*clicks profile*

NoVA huh? And a Hokie? Let's drink some homebrew beer.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:28:11 PM

valar_morghulis: the adults are talking.

Aren't you cute. :I

jasimo		2012-02-22 12:28:38 PM

oakleym82: Ehcks: oakleym82: Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

But why does that even matter?

Because of the law i linked to above. (new window)

1) They're doctors they went to school
2) They can ask, "When was your last period?""
3) They can look at and palpate the abdomen to determine the approximate conception.
4) If all of the above aren't enough to make them sure, they can do a regular ultrasound -- if it doesn't show a fetus pretty far along, they know the pregnancy isn't far along.
5) Doctors and their patients should decide when a trans-vaginal ultrasound is determined. Not a bunch of Bible thumpers and misogynists.

valar_morghulis		2012-02-22 12:29:02 PM

s2s2s2: valar_morghulis: the adults are talking.

Aren't you cute. :I

Thanks. I'm quite attractive.

theorellior		2012-02-22 12:29:07 PM

Thoroughly With Foil: I'm fine with it, but let me just jump ahead & clear up that I don't support premarital sex.

Well, I can't fault you for being consistent with your views.

Congratulations, you're a logical pro-lifer.

CheatCommando		2012-02-22 12:29:32 PM

Outrageous Muff: All it did was piss off all the moderate voters.

Who voted these retards in to begin with. You were warned.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:30:50 PM

Fark It: Right, and this bill mandates forcible vaginal penetration for women who are seeking a medical procedure that they have a legal right to have. Rape. Pretty cut and dry.

Until it is law. Then it's part of the procedure, by consenting to the abortion, you are consenting to the TVU. Now it is consent.

I drunk what		2012-02-22 12:31:18 PM

BFletch651: 1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)

so then all children under 6 months old are not "viable"?

hmm

and what happens years from now when science discovers more about the process-beginnings of human life and it turns out your number was way off?

those murders will just be collateral damage?

here's my counter offer to your proposal

1. No abortion is legal until you can prove Naturally, precisely when personhood begins, as opposed to just arbitrarily picking some number that you think is politically correct.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:31:44 PM

valar_morghulis: Thanks. I'm quite attractive.

On the inside as well, I assume. Be well.

RDixon		2012-02-22 12:33:55 PM

Respect the vagina.

Seriously, respect it for it is armed with sharp political teeth as the VA legislature is now discovering.

Why do christians hate vaginas?

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 12:35:11 PM

RDixon: Why do christians hate vaginas?

I know why Republicans hate them.

It's because they are gay.

johnnyrocket		2012-02-22 12:36:43 PM

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Why don't they just cut to the chase and instead of an ultrasound, require the woman to sit in a room for 5 days while old white men parade through and tell her she's a whore.

Or go all out like the Saudi's. When a women is raped, convict her of adultery...and of course the punishment? Death.

Ctrl-Alt-Del		2012-02-22 12:36:44 PM

valar_morghulis: s2s2s2: Diogenes: In FL, they were going to make the woman pay for it. Pay for the privilege to be violated.

For the abortion or the ultrasound?

You haven't answered my question. Are you a troll or just afraid of arguments you can't win?

He's trolling

BFletch651		2012-02-22 12:36:45 PM

God's Hubris: BFletch651: God's Hubris: meanmutton: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

All 100% reasonable, a very good way to deal with the issues, which is why no one will ever accept it.

Reasonable for reasonable people. Free birth control will set off the fundies like nobody's business, though. All they will see is a govt-sponsored promiscuous lifestyle.

As it stands, there are about 5M live births in this country in a year, and about 1.2M abortions. Thats a lot of abortions, and present restrictions are apparently not reducing that number.

One thing that would: abstinance. Good luck making that work.

Next best thing: birth control. Lots of it, free for everyone, no questions asked. Why should anyone support this? For the only reason that matters; it would actually reduce ABORTIONS.

Republican lawmakes could get behind that, if they were actually interested in reducing the number of abortions and not just getting reelected.

The fatal flaw in all my grand plans for humanity.

The humans.

ksjones		2012-02-22 12:37:22 PM

I drunk what: BFletch651: 1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)

so then all children under 6 months old are not "viable"?

do you know how i know you can't read for comprehension of context?

CheatCommando		2012-02-22 12:37:28 PM

I drunk what: 1. No abortion is legal until you can prove Naturally, precisely when personhood begins, as opposed to just arbitrarily picking some number that you think is politically correct.

Fine. I extend a corollary:

Every child that society forces to be born is entirely that societies' responsibility until it reaches the age of majority. The State shall enact taxes to pay for all food, upkeep, healthcare, and education for every child born within its borders, regardless of the parentage.

When you force some one to do something, you remove their moral obligations and take them upon yourself. Man up and be responsible.

jasimo		2012-02-22 12:38:47 PM

I drunk what: BFletch651: 1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)

so then all children under 6 months old are not "viable"?

hmm

and what happens years from now when science discovers more about the process-beginnings of human life and it turns out your number was way off?

those murders will just be collateral damage?

here's my counter offer to your proposal

1. No abortion is legal until you can prove Naturally, precisely when personhood begins, as opposed to just arbitrarily picking some number that you think is politically correct.

1) Abortions are legal until 20,000 children a day don't die from poverty-related causes.

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