Walker: I wouldn't move across the river to Maryland though, they are too liberal. They are providing free college tuition for illegal immigrants. If you were born and raised in Maryland no free college for you. Pay up slacker!

Yeah, not the case. They are just allowing undocumented students to pay in-state tuition if their parents have been paying taxes for three years. Thanks for playing, though.

Thoroughly With Foil: factoryconnection: oakleym82: If they're about to tag it with a shop vac, who cares about a modest probe first?

The lawyers in the statehouse are mandating an unnecessary, invasive medical procedure. At what point does such a practice cross a line in your mind?

s2s2s2: What is sadistic about facing the choice you are making?

Do you believe that most abortions are the fun-and-games variety? That there isn't already a level of anguish that goes into the choice? "Yeah, thanks for reminding me that I'm single, broke, have two kids already and no medical insurance, and can't possibly support this baby to whom I otherwise have no ill will, doc. You've definitely made me better informed about my lot in life."

Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.


How fascist of you to believe only certain people should be having sex. I know, why don't we focus on abstinence only sex education, that seems to be working!

ExcaliburPrime111: 1. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds will not be required for everyone, only for the small minority of patients for whom a regular abdominal ultrasound cannot definitively identify the age of the fetus.

2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

Let me tell you how wrong you are.

Regular ultrasounds are unreliable in 'seeing' the fetus until the second trimester. Most abortions are performed in the FIRST trimester. Also, most abortions are accomplished using a couple pills and don't involve touching a woman's vagina. So yes, most women WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THE BIG UNWANTED DILDO before taking some pills in the first trimester.

A colonoscopy is also 'painless' and diagnostic. Do you want to have one of those?

Magorn: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

pssst...that's exactly the state of the Law today. Every last bit of it

Would preempt all state law, removing states' abilities to further restrict, or liberalize, the proceedure.

Also, #'s 3 and 4 are new.

eldezod: Well, you were dissatisfied about the Derp level, and you sure shot it way the hell up. Good work.

Ok "shop vac" went over the line, but please explain to me how playing devil's advocate is derptastic? Isn't considering both sides of the story the antithesis of derpishness? I'll ask it again.

VA has a law that restricts abortion only to embryos (e.g. less than 8 weeks, thank you theorellior). The age of the embryo/fetus has to be verified before an abortion will be administered. How else can the OB/GYN / Planned Parenthood verify this independently of the patient?

This ultrasound is administered on women who intend to carry their unborn child to term all the time, I sat with a friend as she was about to receive one (best single mom I know). I saw the wand.

I'll concede that my argument that "if the abortion requires penetration, why is this ultrasound a big deal" doesn't hold water when the abortion pill can be used.

theorellior: eldezod: Well, you were dissatisfied about the Derp level, and you sure shot it way the hell up. Good work.

She was... concerned.

I'm confused.

What ever happened to smaller government and deregulation?

s2s2s2: eldezod: Know how I know you're not a woman?

Reason and Accountability?

you are such a brilliantly dickish person. :) i would love to know the real you, someday.

valar_morghulis: Are you a woman?

No, and I am pro-choice.

hurdboy: Mention that he's actually, you know, done things he said he was going to do when it comes to the Commonwealth's budget and economy?

Name three specific things he said he was going to do that he's made good on.

Traffic in NOVA is worse than ever and the state still owns the liquor stores.

s2s2s2: Diogenes: In FL, they were going to make the woman pay for it. Pay for the privilege to be violated.

For the abortion or the ultrasound?

Oh, good, you're still here. Please answer my question about how Conservatives, who are ostensibly for smaller government can support a law mandating a medically-unnecessary procedure, in order to undergo a separate, elective procedure. And, who will be paying for these medically-useless ultrasounds?

Is that horse dead or did it just twitch?

s2s2s2: What is sadistic about facing the choice you are making?

*picks up stick*

Are you seriously trying to assert that women do not know their own bodies or what an abortion entails?

That they need the likes of you to inform them?

That it is a decision that any woman ever takes lightly?

Have you ever met, you know, an actual woman?

/Yeah, prolly already dead but you can never be too careful.

s2s2s2: Reason and Accountability?

Troll troll troll your boat.

Diogenes: The ultrasound.

If it's the law of the land, and you want an abortion, that's fine with me.

/not saying it SHOULD be the law of the land.
//knows it is a-holes pushing this law for a-hole reasons

oakleym82: This ultrasound is administered on women who intend to carry their unborn child to term all the time,

Sure, but not by force of law, by choice of the patient.

Do you really not see the difference between these two situations? One of them is that the state is literally forcing a doctor to insert a foreign object into your body whether you want it inserted inside of you or not.

What a masterful false equivalence.

CheekyMonkey: Oh, good, you're still here. Please answer my question about how Conservatives, who are ostensibly for smaller government can support a law mandating a medically-unnecessary procedure, in order to undergo a separate, elective procedure. And, who will be paying for these medically-useless ultrasounds?

The GOP isn't for smaller government, unless by smaller you mean "no liberals", and "taxpayers".


Someone else posted this yesterday. I love it.

Thoroughly With Foil: theorellior: Thoroughly With Foil: Yes, because it's a percentage of a percent of all abortions which are actually the result of rape, so let's use that as our argument why everyone gets a mulligan...

Just calling out your slut-shaming for what it is.

What's shameful is that we sanction murder as "Women's Health Rights"...


What's shameful is that you place an unviable fetus above the woman carrying it.

theorellior: s2s2s2: Reason and Accountability?

Troll troll troll your boat.

Oh it's just a funneh from a movie. Relax.

Thoroughly With Foil: ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: : Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.


and that is something only women should have to worry about? it takes 2 to tango, bucko.

hear that all hetero men? don't you dare stick your dick in vag if you are ready and capable of supporting a child

Never said only women had to worry about it, I support your position on males as well. If you want to have sex, you should be fully prepared for the consequences of your actions - both men & women.


ah, see, now you're arguing personal responsibility... while trying to limit the extent that one can exercise their personal responsibility.


why should what anyone else does with their body concern you (or anyone else) at all?

valar_morghulis: No, you aren't. You're a clever troll.

if the gentleman is a troll, he's at least from the finer class of them around here. not just utterly vile and rude. He'll talk with you mostly respectfully and humorously, and sometimes peeks around the curtain and can be fun and funny.

ExcaliburPrime111: 2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure

From what I've heard here and in other threads, that's not always true.

ExcaliburPrime111: Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

Not according to the person I asked, who has actually had the procedure. (I had to ask someone, not being equipped with a vagina of my own.) Out of curiosity, have YOU ever had one?

oakleym82: VA has a law that restricts abortion only to embryos

Also, do you have a citation for this? I can't verify it.

The Guttmacher Institute doesn't list this on their "Restrictions on Abortion" on the state page for Virginia.

valar_morghulis: So you know exactly how it feels to have life growing inside of you, then.

As best my wife could describe it, yes.

valar_morghulis: No, you aren't.

Yes I am.

The Homer Tax: oakleym82: This ultrasound is administered on women who intend to carry their unborn child to term all the time,

Sure, but not by force of law, by choice of the patient.

Do you really not see the difference between these two situations? One of them is that the state is literally forcing a doctor to insert a foreign object into your body whether you want it inserted inside of you or not.

What a masterful false equivalence.

That was only a small piece of my argument taken out of context. Abortion is a politically charged subject. Colonoscopies are not. Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

shiat, I've almost convinced myself.

If you track back, you will see that I think this law is stupid.

s2s2s2: Oh it's just a funneh from a movie. Relax.

I meant it in the funniest way. You do have the most fun in threads.

ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: : Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.


and that is something only women should have to worry about? it takes 2 to tango, bucko.

hear that all hetero men? don't you dare stick your dick in vag if you are ready and capable of supporting a child

Never said only women had to worry about it, I support your position on males as well. If you want to have sex, you should be fully prepared for the consequences of your actions - both men & women.


ah, see, now you're arguing personal responsibility... while trying to limit the extent that one can exercise their personal responsibility.


why should what anyone else does with their body concern you (or anyone else) at all?

Because my tax dollars are supporting agencies that perform these horrible procedures, which I truly believe are murder - despite what your secular viewpoint is.

quatchi: Are you seriously trying to assert that women do not know their own bodies or what an abortion entails?

That they need the likes of you to inform them?

That it is a decision that any woman ever takes lightly?

Have you ever met, you know, an actual woman?

I don't assume anyone knows their body, at least not in America.

I don't intend to inform them.

I know women who took the decision lightly, several times.

I have met lots of women. Women love me.

theorellior: I meant it in the funniest way. You do have the most fun in threads.

Good. I apologize for assuming the less good.

valar_morghulis: I wonder what it's like on the other side

Maybe if you probed me?

BFletch651: Felgraf: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.
I'm hoping 1) has caveats that it's legal if the life of the mother is endangered (or if the fetus is technically dead anyways: i.e., has developed without a brain, etc). As I imagine most people woulnd't seek an abortion after 6 months *unless* there was a life-threatening condition....

You might be unpleasantly surprised. Still, that caveat is assumed, and part of current law.

Didn't Santorum's wife have an abortion after the 6 month mark because her life was in danger?

valar_morghulis: CapnBlues: valar_morghulis: No, you aren't. You're a clever troll.

if the gentleman is a troll, he's at least from the finer class of them around here. not just utterly vile and rude. He'll talk with you mostly respectfully and humorously, and sometimes peeks around the curtain and can be fun and funny.

I wonder what it's like on the other side, Where the Wild Trolls Are. A random-sounding username and Logic 101 textbook your constant companion.

i dabbled at one point, but I couldn't do it. I kept thinking of the people on the other side of it, taking me seriously and getting really angry. It's not even fun. You just picture these good people, not realizing that they're being trolled, and they're all getting angry and losing hope in the species because of the crap you're saying. It's toxic, the way a lot of them do it. Then there are the ones who mean it, and that... that's even sadder, but perhaps less destructive. A sincere person may be amenable to some kind of actual reasoning, evidence, that sort of thing. You can argue with a troll all day and he'll never change his mind, because he's playing the part of a character who is incapable of changing his mind.

Thinking back on it, I am sad. I want to find the people I trolled and apologize to them, each of them, personally. Maybe I'll do that.

oakleym82: That was only a small piece of my argument taken out of context. Abortion is a politically charged subject. Colonoscopies are not. Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

I don't care what you think about the law, I can't verify your statement that only embryonic abortions are legal in VA. Your whole line of reasoning is based on a premise that, from what I can tell, is completely false.

s2s2s2: Oh it's just a funneh from a movie. Relax.

stop trying to regulate other peoples emotions

let them choose

madgonad: ExcaliburPrime111: 1. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds will not be required for everyone, only for the small minority of patients for whom a regular abdominal ultrasound cannot definitively identify the age of the fetus.

2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

Let me tell you how wrong you are.

Regular ultrasounds are unreliable in 'seeing' the fetus until the second trimester. Most abortions are performed in the FIRST trimester. Also, most abortions are accomplished using a couple pills and don't involve touching a woman's vagina. So yes, most women WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THE BIG UNWANTED DILDO before taking some pills in the first trimester.

A colonoscopy is also 'painless' and diagnostic. Do you want to have one of those?

Chose THIS, among the good points above, to say THIS to.

Virginia is for... post-hoc prima nocta.

Also, let's look what's in the pipeline besides the personhood bill:

Bills ending state subsidies for low-income women to abort fetuses that have serious birth defects

So low-income women would have to either: a) use what little money they have to have an abortion, or b) carry it to full term with disabilities that could make it the child dependent on the state for life - at a cost of millions of dollars that could have been spent to help/save/improve the life of dozens of children.

cameroncrazy1984: But not pro giving a woman a choice to have the non-medically necessary ultrasound, apparently.

I'm not necessarily pro-this procedure. I am a bit averse to comparing it to rape.

The Homer Tax: oakleym82: VA has a law that restricts abortion only to embryos

Also, do you have a citation for this? I can't verify it.

The Guttmacher Institute doesn't list this on their "Restrictions on Abortion" on the state page for Virginia.

My mistake. Abortions are legal in VA through the 2nd trimester.

Link (new window)

oakleym82: Until someone can explain to me another way to verify the embryo's age, I will continue to play devil's advocate on this.

But why does that even matter?