FARK.com: (6955976) Virginia Governor Robert F. McDonnell, after being featured on The Daily Show for his support of the post-rape vaginal probe bill, would like to take some time to take a long, hard look at the issue and possibly reconsider his position

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		Virginia Governor Robert F. McDonnell, after being featured on The Daily Show for his support of the post-rape vaginal probe bill, would like to take some time to take a long, hard look at the issue and possibly reconsider his position (washingtonpost.com)		370
		More: Dumbass, Governor of Virginia, Bob McDonnell, Virginia, Virginians, abortions

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cwolf20		2012-02-22 11:34:28 AM

KatjaMouse

No. That won't happen. What will happen, though, is that women in NoVA will only start seeing OB/GYNs in either the District or Maryland, women in the southern most areas will be seeing doctors in North Carolina and everyone in between will find a spike in ER visits from various 'home remedies' going wrong.

That's it. Insert logic into a comedic future scenario in which the state has a huge drop in voters due to lack of births

CapnBlues		2012-02-22 11:35:07 AM

valar_morghulis: s2s2s2: valar_morghulis: So you wouldn't mind having a 10-inch probe inserted into your rectum for wisdom tooth removal, then. Got it.

Abortions are performed orally? I did not know that. Thank you for all the straw!

A transvaginal untrasound isn't required to perform abortions, just as an anal probe isn't required to perform oral surgery. It isn't in the patient's best interests, and compromises the integrity of the patient-doctor relationship. Ain't no straw here, only truth. Growing up hurts.

perhaps a more apt analogy would be whole-head MRI for a tooth extraction. :)

/just tryin to help.

pisceandreamer		2012-02-22 11:35:22 AM

theorellior: I think we should have anyone prescribed for boner pills have a prostate exam, just in case. Sometimes there are medical problems with those drugs, can't be too careful. It'll be saving lives in the long run.

That was an amendment on the bill. Shockingly, it was voted down.

Fark It		2012-02-22 11:35:27 AM

ExcaliburPrime111: 2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

They're not rape, until the government requires them for an unrelated medical procedure that you have a legal right to.

Unwanted, forcible penetration is rape, according to every definition out there.

The Homer Tax		2012-02-22 11:35:47 AM

theknuckler_33: This kind of legislation is something he's advocated for ever since writing a thesis at Regent in the 80s (it was called something else then)... so he's got this conundrum, sign something that takes a step towards the ultimate goals of your social agenda and probably make your palatability for the VP seat to bitter a pill to swallow, or veto something you really want to further your political career.

This is the kind of shiat a lot of people were saying during his campaign. "You realize this guy is a giant social conservative right? Here's all of these documents he wrote himself about all of this really crazy stuff he actually believes."

His response was "No way guys, I'm all about jobs and stuff, I don't even believe that stuff anymore. that's not the issue here. It's jobs. This is a liberal bomb throwing campaign. Jobs Jobs Jobs."

Then he got elected and you don't even need to use your imagination to know what happened next.

valar_morghulis		2012-02-22 11:35:53 AM

Moonfisher: Fark It: I'm repeating this from a redlit thread:

Am I the only one wondering how they will enforce this? You basically need a bachelor's at minimum in order to do ultrasound work, plus spend more training once you've narrowed down your sub-specialty (OBGYN, Cardiac, etc). The people who are licensed to do this type of procedure are pretty much all women, and not mouthbreathers.

Who's going to bet that most of them are just going to sit there and pretend to do the procedure and set the would-be victims on their way? I don't see any of these Republican twunt-muffins who support this stepping forward to get their cooters poked to ensure regulatory compliance.

If you read both pages of the article, you will see that if the woman does not look, she has to sign a form saying she didn't look that goes into her medical file along with an image of the ultrasound.

So nice to see Puritanical practices making a comeback, scarlett letters and all.

factoryconnection		2012-02-22 11:35:57 AM

oakleym82: I thought the whole reasoning behind requiring it was that it was necessary to verify the fetus' age.

That may be how some have sold it, but that's a broad assumption that (1) women will lie to get early-term abortions and that (2) OB/GYNs are too ignorant to figure it out on their own without a mandate.

Maybe the state licensing board for OB/GYNs need to be reviewing its standards if they're so ignorant about the progression that mothers go through among the gestational phases.

Also, for those that wanted to see the Daily Show bit: Link (new window)

dericwater		2012-02-22 11:36:05 AM

Mearen: meanmutton: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

All 100% reasonable, a very good way to deal with the issues, which is why no one will ever accept it.

It's the paying for it with my tax dollars that's the problem. This in no way falls under reasonable use of my tax dollars.

Where's the tax dollars being used? It's like buying an iPad. You're allowed to buy one. No tax dollars at work to encourage or discourage you buying one.

BTW, you know what falls outside of reasonable use of my tax dollars, in my opinion? Every cent going into the Military Industrial Complex.

theorellior		2012-02-22 11:36:15 AM

oakleym82: Agreed. But isn't the point of this to verify the age of the fetus? Is there another way?

If you require a vaginal ultrasound to determine the age, it's not a fetus, it's an embryo.

Felgraf		2012-02-22 11:36:32 AM

Doesn't this law also allow doctors to withold information from the patient if they feel it would "Lead the woman to have an abortion?"

I wonder if that includes "Oh, if you don't have an abortion, this *will* probably kill you."

biglot		2012-02-22 11:36:33 AM

What is the mental state of the women that marry these guys? Are they allowed to even have one?

Dinjiin		2012-02-22 11:36:36 AM

s2s2s2: What is sadistic about facing the choice you are making?

If I were to ever have a cancerous tumor removed, doctors wouldn't open me up, insert a small camera and then ask me if I still wanted it removed. You can make a completely sound medical decision without that step.

The ultrasound requirement for abortions is simply a passive aggressive step that anti-choice people are pushing onto abortion providers in order to make the procedure more expensive, more time consuming and more emotionally traumatic for the patient. "Facing the choice you are making?" Just sitting in a doctor's office is enough for that.

If you think an internal ultrasound is required, you're a power tripping sadist who might as well walk up to women and just start raping them as you see them, because there isn't much difference.

Magorn		2012-02-22 11:36:54 AM

As a Va resident and a lefty , I'm both glad he backing off this and that it came up in the first place. When Bobby McD ran for office, alot of us tried to point out that he was the most extreme kind of fundy dominionist nutbag ( Multiple degrees from Pat Robertson's Regent's University, a master thesis explaining why women should not be allowed to work outside the home, etc)

But he just seemed so nice and normal, and said the election was all about the shiatful traffic in NOVA and he'd certainly never impose his religious views on others, look not only did he liet his wife and daughter work, but one of them was a Soldier for goshsakes.

So running against an incompetent Dem he got elected for the first an only time (VA govs can only serve one term, it's why the state government is so dysfunctional-Governors only get to pass one budget, and they are out of office before it takes effect) and while the Dems had the majority in the Senate and House of Delgates he did look kinda rational. But Now that the GOP captured the house and tied in the senate (and his LT gov has the tiebreaker) all the crazy extremists in his party have come out to play, and we are starting to see who he really is, which will hopefully knock him out of serious consideration for and Federal Office down the line

generallyso		2012-02-22 11:37:45 AM

Love the way trolls out themselves in this sort of thread. It's like they're jumping up and down holding a sign saying "Put Me On Ignore!"

KatjaMouse		2012-02-22 11:38:36 AM

Felgraf: Doesn't this law also allow doctors to withold information from the patient if they feel it would "Lead the woman to have an abortion?"

I wonder if that includes "Oh, if you don't have an abortion, this *will* probably kill you."

No, that's not Virginia. That's Kansas. And a woman is not allowed to sue a doctor if they withhold this information from them. But should the mother die the family can sue them back to the stone-age... so there's that at least.

RedT		2012-02-22 11:38:51 AM

Virgina, more reasonable than Texas (new window).

theorellior		2012-02-22 11:39:07 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: Yes, because it's a percentage of a percent of all abortions which are actually the result of rape, so let's use that as our argument why everyone gets a mulligan...

Just calling out your slut-shaming for what it is.

Fark It		2012-02-22 11:40:43 AM

karmaceutical		2012-02-22 11:41:09 AM

Jacobin: Then you have to take the ultra sound picture and put it on your refrigerator door. And then say 10 hail marys, throw salt over your shoulder and put some ashes on your forehead

I thought they would just take the ultrasound images and let all your family and coworkers know about your little blessing, and then organize a surprise baby shower the day before your abortion.

factoryconnection		2012-02-22 11:41:11 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.

And there it is: babies are a punishment on women for having sex; with a mandatory 18 year and 40-week sentence. As long as your position is clear, I appreciate your honesty.

God's Hubris		2012-02-22 11:41:27 AM

meanmutton: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

All 100% reasonable, a very good way to deal with the issues, which is why no one will ever accept it.

Reasonable for reasonable people. Free birth control will set off the fundies like nobody's business, though. All they will see is a govt-sponsored promiscuous lifestyle.

The Homer Tax		2012-02-22 11:42:31 AM

ksjones		2012-02-22 11:43:09 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: : Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.

and that is something only women should have to worry about? it takes 2 to tango, bucko.

hear that all hetero men? don't you dare stick your dick in vag if you are ready and capable of supporting a child

CheekyMonkey		2012-02-22 11:43:23 AM

Diogenes: CheekyMonkey: s2s2s2: Diogenes: The degree of invasiveness is beside the point. It certainly makes the issue more poignant, but it shouldn't be required at all.

The invasiveness of having something put in you to take something out of you?
Yeah, putting something else in you is just crazy!

There's no medical reason for doing an ultrasound before an abortion. Who will pay for this unnecessary procedure? The government? Sounds like a waste of tax money to me...

In FL, they were going to make the woman pay for it. Pay for the privilege to be violated.

And that's the really funny thing about this sort of bill. It's being pushed by Republicans, who are ostensibly for smaller government, yet it mandates a medically unnecessary procedure which places an undue financial burden on the recipient.

It's almost as if Republicans are not logically consistent.

eldezod		2012-02-22 11:43:42 AM

oakleym82: Virginia Farker here. I'd just like to say that I'm pleasantly surprised at the low level of Derp in this thread. Lots of good points about the ultrasound itself, VA politics, etc. So let me throw my $.02 into the ring:

...

I'm against this bill on principle, but playing devil's advocate for a second.. what's the big deal about getting the internal ultrasound before an abortion? If they're about to tag it with a shop vac, who cares about a modest probe first?

Well, you were dissatisfied about the Derp level, and you sure shot it way the hell up. Good work.

factoryconnection		2012-02-22 11:44:10 AM

karmaceutical: I thought they would just take the ultrasound images and let all your family and coworkers know about your little blessing, and then organize a surprise baby shower the day before your abortion.

And you don't get to return the diaper cake^*, either!

^*a multi-layer cake made of disposable diapers in various sizes, a popular baby shower present

jaylectricity		2012-02-22 11:44:47 AM

CapnBlues: jaylectricity: CapnBlues: if either of those individuals are a woman, then the duty falls to his or her spouse.

Umm...

cut me a break. only had time for one coffee so far today. good catch, though. :)

When I have nothing to add to the conversation I can at least read the comments for typos.

Thoroughly With Foil		2012-02-22 11:45:22 AM

theorellior: Thoroughly With Foil: Yes, because it's a percentage of a percent of all abortions which are actually the result of rape, so let's use that as our argument why everyone gets a mulligan...

Just calling out your slut-shaming for what it is.

What's shameful is that we sanction murder as "Women's Health Rights"...

KatjaMouse		2012-02-22 11:46:08 AM

New Law Requires Women To Name Baby, Paint Nursery Before Getting Abortion (new window)

GardenWeasel		2012-02-22 11:46:12 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: factoryconnection: oakleym82: If they're about to tag it with a shop vac, who cares about a modest probe first?

The lawyers in the statehouse are mandating an unnecessary, invasive medical procedure. At what point does such a practice cross a line in your mind?

s2s2s2: What is sadistic about facing the choice you are making?

Do you believe that most abortions are the fun-and-games variety? That there isn't already a level of anguish that goes into the choice? "Yeah, thanks for reminding me that I'm single, broke, have two kids already and no medical insurance, and can't possibly support this baby to whom I otherwise have no ill will, doc. You've definitely made me better informed about my lot in life."

Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.

I say this with no snark or attempt to be funny. If I get banned so be it.

F*CK YOU.

theorellior		2012-02-22 11:46:14 AM

eldezod: Well, you were dissatisfied about the Derp level, and you sure shot it way the hell up. Good work.

She was... concerned.

CapnBlues		2012-02-22 11:46:39 AM

jaylectricity: CapnBlues: jaylectricity: CapnBlues: if either of those individuals are a woman, then the duty falls to his or her spouse.

Umm...

cut me a break. only had time for one coffee so far today. good catch, though. :)

When I have nothing to add to the conversation I can at least read the comments for typos.

mah, it was more than just catching a typo, dude. your response -- subtle, but pointed. clear and upfront, without being dickish. i dig it.

eldezod		2012-02-22 11:46:49 AM

ExcaliburPrime111: Woah... I think I just got my Boobies censored while on Fark. It does not show up in this thread anymore nor is it in my history.

Anyway, I will post again, just in case I did something silly:

1. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds will not be required for everyone, only for the small minority of patients for whom a regular abdominal ultrasound cannot definitively identify the age of the fetus.

Not true

2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

Know how I know you're not a woman?

The Homer Tax		2012-02-22 11:47:45 AM

Magorn: But he just seemed so nice and normal, and said the election was all about the shiatful traffic in NOVA

And thank god we voted for him, because Traffic in NOVA is just a dream now. It is my no means the same at best or much, much worse at worst...

Thanks governor McDonnell!

Oh, and thanks for privatizing the liquor stores, too.

theorellior		2012-02-22 11:47:51 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: What's shameful is that we sanction murder as "Women's Health Rights"...

According to the Bible, a man who forced a woman to miscarry only had to pay her husband for damaging his property. And the Bible knows all about murder, it's one of the Commandments. Right?

Fark It		2012-02-22 11:47:55 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: theorellior: Thoroughly With Foil: Yes, because it's a percentage of a percent of all abortions which are actually the result of rape, so let's use that as our argument why everyone gets a mulligan...

Just calling out your slut-shaming for what it is.

What's shameful is that we sanction murder as "Women's Health Rights"...

What's shameful is that some people are so stupid they think embryos are people.

KatjaMouse		2012-02-22 11:48:38 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: What's shameful is that we sanction murder as "Women's Health Rights"...

Out of curiosity, do you have a uterus? Because if not, I don't even want to engage you further.

Thoroughly With Foil		2012-02-22 11:48:41 AM

ksjones: Thoroughly With Foil: : Can't afford it? Don't sit on a dick.

and that is something only women should have to worry about? it takes 2 to tango, bucko.

hear that all hetero men? don't you dare stick your dick in vag if you are ready and capable of supporting a child

Never said only women had to worry about it, I support your position on males as well. If you want to have sex, you should be fully prepared for the consequences of your actions - both men & women.

valar_morghulis		2012-02-22 11:48:56 AM

eldezod: ExcaliburPrime111: Woah... I think I just got my Boobies censored while on Fark. It does not show up in this thread anymore nor is it in my history.

Anyway, I will post again, just in case I did something silly:

1. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds will not be required for everyone, only for the small minority of patients for whom a regular abdominal ultrasound cannot definitively identify the age of the fetus.

Not true

2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

Know how I know you're not a woman?

Know how I know he hasn't considered the definition of rape within the context of a forced transvaginal ultrasound?

BFletch651		2012-02-22 11:49:37 AM

God's Hubris: meanmutton: BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

All 100% reasonable, a very good way to deal with the issues, which is why no one will ever accept it.

Reasonable for reasonable people. Free birth control will set off the fundies like nobody's business, though. All they will see is a govt-sponsored promiscuous lifestyle.

As it stands, there are about 5M live births in this country in a year, and about 1.2M abortions. Thats a lot of abortions, and present restrictions are apparently not reducing that number.

One thing that would: abstinance. Good luck making that work.

Next best thing: birth control. Lots of it, free for everyone, no questions asked. Why should anyone support this? For the only reason that matters; it would actually reduce ABORTIONS.

vudukungfu		2012-02-22 11:49:40 AM

Too late, Virginia Governor Robert Farktard McDonnell. We all already know you are an asshole and there are no takebacks on the internet.

He's going to get farked in the media against his will.

fitting.

hurdboy		2012-02-22 11:50:00 AM

Unsurprised it sounds like he's planning on vetoing it. Mention of something he wrote as a graduate student at Pat Robertson U? Check. Artful omission that he's actually a Catholic who got his undergraduate degree at Notre Dame? Check. (As did his daughter....) Mention of the crazy AG? Check. Mention that he's actually, you know, done things he said he was going to do when it comes to the Commonwealth's budget and economy? Nope.

McDonnell is a bright guy. His politics don't fit into the comfortable progressive bobblehead box they so artfully crafted for them. Wouldn't surprise me if he vetoes the personhood bill, too. It was well on its way to probably dying in the State Senate until several western Democrats decided to help sponsor it......

/Virginian; voted for Terry McAuliffe in the Democratic Primary, and would have in the general; Creigh Deeds was and is the dying remains of the Byrd Organization......

fuhfuhfuh		2012-02-22 11:50:56 AM

Thoroughly With Foil: What's shameful is that we sanction murder as "Women's Health Rights"...

Can't wait to start putting all those dirty whores who got abortions on trial and sentencing them to the death penalty in states like Texas. Also, lock up the doctor and anyone that helped the dirty whore get the abortion for accessory to murder.

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 11:51:38 AM

Diogenes: In FL, they were going to make the woman pay for it. Pay for the privilege to be violated.

For the abortion or the ultrasound?

Magorn		2012-02-22 11:51:45 AM

BFletch651: My legislative program for dealing with the abortion debate:

1. Abortion is legal nationwide up to viability (6 months, mol)
2. No government money for it and no insurance requirement for it.
3. Minimize unwanted pregnancies by providing free birth control to everyone nationwide and federal expense.
4. Encourage domestic adoption by (a) increasing federal adoption tax credit to $25,000, which is close to the actual cost, and (b) making it easier to terminate parental rights of birth parents, particularly unidentified fathers.

All via federal legislation.

pssst...that's exactly the state of the Law today. Every last bit of it

Felgraf		2012-02-22 11:52:07 AM

KatjaMouse: Felgraf: Doesn't this law also allow doctors to withold information from the patient if they feel it would "Lead the woman to have an abortion?"

I wonder if that includes "Oh, if you don't have an abortion, this *will* probably kill you."

No, that's not Virginia. That's Kansas. And a woman is not allowed to sue a doctor if they withhold this information from them. But should the mother die the family can sue them back to the stone-age... so there's that at least.

Ah, sorry, I got them confused. I suppose that's inexcusable, due to living in virginia, but I suppose the frustration gets overwhelming sometimes.

ksjones		2012-02-22 11:52:28 AM

valar_morghulis		2012-02-22 11:52:51 AM

s2s2s2: Diogenes: In FL, they were going to make the woman pay for it. Pay for the privilege to be violated.

For the abortion or the ultrasound?

You haven't answered my question. Are you a troll or just afraid of arguments you can't win?

s2s2s2		2012-02-22 11:53:00 AM

eldezod: Know how I know you're not a woman?

Reason and Accountability?

CheekyMonkey		2012-02-22 11:53:14 AM

eldezod: ExcaliburPrime111: Woah... I think I just got my Boobies censored while on Fark. It does not show up in this thread anymore nor is it in my history.

Anyway, I will post again, just in case I did something silly:

1. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds will not be required for everyone, only for the small minority of patients for whom a regular abdominal ultrasound cannot definitively identify the age of the fetus.

Not true

2. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not "rape." They are a form of painless medical diagnostic procedure, with a long track record of use in medical diagnostics.

Know how I know you're not a woman?

More importantly, they ultrasounds are not being used as a diagnostic procedure in this case. They are completely medically unnecessary. It's akin to the government mandating that a woman's pubic hair be shaved by a medical professional before undergoing a pap smear. Annoying, invasive, and totally unnecessary.

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