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(Forbes)   From the editors at Forbes comes this groundbreaking expose: the five leadership mistakes of the Galactic Empire   (forbes.com) divider line 126
    More: Obvious, groundbreakings  
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12004 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2012 at 12:58 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-21 02:06:14 PM  

Harry Freakstorm: The Empire had horrible PR. Good PR can get anything done. Look at Kuwait.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Destruction of Alderaan paves way for faster commerce. The Emperor announced today that the destruction of Alderaan will speed commerce throughout the galaxy.

"We just knocked two parsec off the Kessel run" announced the gleeful Emperor in a press conference. The destruction of Alderaan will make commerce across the Empire faster, safer and easier. "We just created 4 billion new jobs."

"Sure the destruction of Alderaan is a bad thing if you're Alderaanian but they recently learned that they were all infected with space worms and were going to die a horrible, painful death anyways. This way was quick and painless and a good thing for the Empire. Let me tell you this: They all died quite happy."

The Empire plans to clean up the residual debris and open a new shipping lane for operations at light speed. The new route should be ready to go for the Springtime spice runs.



I think it's more likely it would be handled as 'an unfortunate occurrence'

CORUSCANT (AP) - Empire to Launch Full Inquiry into Alderaan Tragedy

The Imperial Council today issue a statement deploring the 'tragic loss of life' caused by the destruction of the planet Alderaan, and has promised a full investigation into the incident, according to Imperial Spokesperson Clone #2376823.

"We deeply regret this planetary annihilation event, and are committed to bringing about a just resolution for all parties involved. To this end, the office of Imperial Intelligence has launched a full investigation of the events on the Death Star during the time of this incident, and will with full due process identify whichever nameless clone pushed the button on the big gun. Once identified, this person will be force-choked."

Stocks reacted to the news by ending slightly higher, at 15423633500.03.
 
2012-02-21 02:24:00 PM  
Forbes = Cracked now?
 
2012-02-21 02:24:29 PM  

BurnShrike: Rude Turnip: The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made.

Absolutely. That trilogy was incredible.


Since they haven't actuallybeen made into movies you don't know that, never under-estimate the power of LucasSuck. The man is like a reverse King Midas, everything he touches turns to shiat eventually

I loved my wife's comment the other day when my son wanted to drag her to see Clone Wars in 3-d (despite otherwise impeccable geek credentials and having memorized the entire LOTR (extended edition) Trilogy, he actually LIKES episodes 1-3, -better than the originals. It's a source of deep shame for me as a parent)

"Just because I play SW:TOR avidly doesn't mean I'm a Star Wars fan. The writing in SW:TOR is actually GOOD"
 
2012-02-21 02:28:56 PM  

Rude Turnip: beta_plus: JohnCarter: Odd -

They failed to mention
- Cloning thousands of soldiers
- blowing up planets
- loosing track of your family
- loosing track of your enemies
- choosing a lava planet as your place of battle

That's unfair bringint that up. None of those things appear in the only 3 films made, New Hope, Empire, and Return. It's a shame Lucas has never gotten around to making the prequel films.

/always wondered what it would be like if Quentin Tarrantino remaid the prequels
//Obi-One-Kenobe hacks up Anakin to "Stuck In the Middle With You"

A good amount of that stuff is covered in numerous books that are canon. The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made. Are you really admitting that you don't like books?


hostinga.imagecross.com

/enjoyed the Han Solo trilogy
//don't care if it's not "canon"
 
2012-02-21 02:30:51 PM  

Fano: They started building the Death Star at the end of ROTS! Haven't they heard of just in time delivery? Sheesh


iat's more that when you watch the original trilogy, you have in mind an Empire that took a good deal of time to become fully recognized as unvarnished evil after having arisen from the ashes of a Republic that collapsed from its own corruption. Think in terms of how the Roman Empire came to be out of the Republic- it didn't happen overnight, and even then the Empire took generations to crumble from its own problems.

In the prequels all of that happens within a rather short span of time. It's a good but slow moving Republic in Ep 1, then twelve to fifteen years later it's corrupt, and a few short years later the people applaud the Empire that replaces it. Then in twenty years it becomes human-centric and hated by everybody. Oh, and by the way, they've also gone on a military buildup that was damn near instantaneous (consider how long it takes us to come out with ONE new aircraft carrier... they came out with whole classes of Star Destroyers in less time than that).

The entire timeline got farked up.
 
2012-02-21 02:34:24 PM  
Oznog: LOL I remember when the commercials usually described it was "the EEEEEVIL Galactic Empire".

And I wondered... why are they "evil", anyways? I mean, do they have an ideology to this whole thing? What business are they IN, exactly? Taking inventory of the plot, there's a fleet of ships driving around of basically do-your-job military, and one asshole boss brooding in chamber and ordering people to do horrible things. The stated motivations go no deeper than "domination".

It's a critical point so often neglected in scifi/fantasy. So where's the money? What's the goal? I mean, if you DO achieve "galactic domination", it doesn't seem like Vader or Palpatine would enjoy a better life. It's not like a Vader or the Emperor is going to retire on the beach in a magnificently appointed villa with an infinity pool, hookers, and friends to show this all off to at million-dollar dinner parties.

This is kind of difficult to understand because a military like that needs a HUGE flow of ongoing profits to keep going, and keep the upper echelons satisfied with their long-term outlook. This is not merely a practical ideology, it's an unwaivering requirement of reality. When the money stops flowing, there's no more ships and the unpaid troops starve or leave. I'm not seeing how they make their money. Where was the profit in destroying Alderaan?


jagec:Huh? They were the guys in charge, and they did enough atrocities that the rebels thought that they could run the place better. The same as any number of other, real-life rebellions throughout history. I don't think it's much of a problem. The profit in destroying Alderaan is that it did more economic and psychological damage to the rebellion than it did to the Empire, and it made other rebel sympathizers think twice before attacking the Empire.

As for ongoing funds, taxes, man. Same as today. They owned the galaxy, they could tax people as much as they wanted. With the War on Jedi and the War on Spice and the War ...


Be that as it may... there's several flaws in that theory.
a) taxes are not featured prominently as issues in the Star Wars universe.
b) the Emperor does not drool over "and now, young Skywalker, observe our new marginal effective tax rate of 32%!!"
c) like I say, neither the Emperor nor Vader seem to have ANY use for money. Or power, really. Their writeups simply don't have motivation like this, and this wasn't addressed in the prequels either. Palpatine wanted to be president... but for what end this granted him personally, it's not really clear.
d) Exactly what effective marginal tax rate crosses the line into an "evil" percentage?
 
2012-02-21 02:39:15 PM  
Having an entire army of the most incompetent soldiers in the galaxy wearing plastic armor and firing weapons without bothering to aim (not that they seem to cause any damage) who can be defeated by farking TEDDY BEARS is suspiciously absent from the list.

If it weren't for Darth Vader and the Emperor, there wouldn't be anything remotely worrisome about the Empire. It's the most incompetent evil ever.
 
2012-02-21 02:41:40 PM  

Gabrielmot: surprisingly Forbes failed to find one of their mistakes as "being evil".

/apparently that must have been a *good* business practice.


Came here for this -- awfully far down the thread, no?
 
2012-02-21 02:41:51 PM  

akula: Fano: Not that I am now asking for Lucas to fill in the gaps, but it seems like a lot of nothing happened for twenty years after Palpatine secured his empire.

I guess one of the things that bugs me is how much the prequels seemed to collapse the timeline before Episode IV. With all those Star Destroyers and other things, you were expecting an empire that had been around for centuries, not one that was only 20 years old. There was a bunch of stuff in a short span of time between Episodes II and III, then the Empire is born, and now NOTHING for 20 years. It just seems like there wasn't enough time there for things to decay to the point where the Empire had gone from establishing order to being outright evil and oppressive.

If anything, the Empire only reflected the evils committed by the Republic and added bigger weapons to the mix. There was no grass roots rebellion against the Republic, I don't get why all of a sudden people are taking up arms to fight the Empire. Sure, it did away with the Republic, but the Republic NEEDED to be toppled.


Exactly. Lucas really screwed the pooch with his impatience. By loading the prequels with "fan service" cameos he compressed the timelines to the point of breaking credulity.

Theree was no reason Anakin needed to be a teenager when he became Darth Vader. A better Story-teller would have used to the first movie to establish a corrupt and decaying Republic, one being brought down by it's own size and inability to act decisively on anything (kinda like the Medieval Polish Parliament which required every act to be unanimous). The Jedi could be shown to have been ennervated by too many centuries of seeking detachment from the material world and human emotions. Their serenity and fear of emotions essentially paralyzing them into uselessness.

Palpatine could have been played as a Julius Ceasar figure, offering stability and order -even if he has to act like a dictator to do it. A figure that would have been highly attractive to young Anakin who, born as a slave had seen the brutality and corruption of the so-called Republic first hand. In the second movie we could have seen Anaking slowly rejecting the Jedi ideals (rightly) because they seemed too passive and weak and (wrongly) because his late start in the training has led him to be unable to master the emotional and mental disciplines that are second nature to kids half his age. We should have seen Plapatine slowly seduce him over to his side, one corruption after another, each greater than the last, but all done with seemingly good intentions.

The last movie could have been about the rise of the empire and the destruction of the Jedi, who realize, too late, what's happening. It could have EASILY spanned 50-100 years (Jedi are very long-lived) and Vader could have spawned his kids near the end of that time, maybe during a period where he realized what his become and tires to reform himself, only to realize it's too late and he'll never have a normal life.

The whole romance with princess Amidala was both stupid and unnecessary and frankly screws up the timeline badly. Luke is what, 18 in New Hope? How does Ben Kenobi age from a 30-40 something in the prime of his life, to a decrepit ancient in 20 years?
 
2012-02-21 02:42:11 PM  

Oznog: Be that as it may... there's several flaws in that theory.
a) taxes are not featured prominently as issues in the Star Wars universe.
b) the Emperor does not drool over "and now, young Skywalker, observe our new marginal effective tax rate of 32%!!"
c) like I say, neither the Emperor nor Vader seem to have ANY use for money. Or power, really. Their writeups simply don't have motivation like this, and this wasn't addressed in the prequels either. Palpatine wanted to be president... but for what end this granted him personally, it's not really clear.
d) Exactly what effective marginal tax rate crosses the line into an "evil" percentage?


a)Why would they be? Taxes may be a big deal in the US, but that's only because we're a bunch of greedy, entitled morons. And look how much amazing military hardware our LOW tax rates can buy. The industrial output of multiple star systems could easily sustain a thriving civilian economy as well as the Empire's military, especially when you take the slave labor into account.

b)Yeah, we focus more on our F-22s and aircraft carriers than our tax policy, because the latter is more BORING. Again, so?

c)Neither does anyone in our own personal Senate. Power is its own reward. There is no need to write their specific "motivation" for gaining power, because it's human nature.

d)The tax rate has nothing to do with them being evil, one way OR the other.
 
2012-02-21 02:51:28 PM  

jagec: Oznog: Be that as it may... there's several flaws in that theory.
a) taxes are not featured prominently as issues in the Star Wars universe.
b) the Emperor does not drool over "and now, young Skywalker, observe our new marginal effective tax rate of 32%!!"
c) like I say, neither the Emperor nor Vader seem to have ANY use for money. Or power, really. Their writeups simply don't have motivation like this, and this wasn't addressed in the prequels either. Palpatine wanted to be president... but for what end this granted him personally, it's not really clear.
d) Exactly what effective marginal tax rate crosses the line into an "evil" percentage?

a)Why would they be? Taxes may be a big deal in the US, but that's only because we're a bunch of greedy, entitled morons. And look how much amazing military hardware our LOW tax rates can buy. The industrial output of multiple star systems could easily sustain a thriving civilian economy as well as the Empire's military, especially when you take the slave labor into account.

b)Yeah, we focus more on our F-22s and aircraft carriers than our tax policy, because the latter is more BORING. Again, so?

c)Neither does anyone in our own personal Senate. Power is its own reward. There is no need to write their specific "motivation" for gaining power, because it's human nature.

d)The tax rate has nothing to do with them being evil, one way OR the other.


If you want to include all the movies, Episode 1's conflict is actually over taxes and trade.
 
2012-02-21 02:51:35 PM  
akula:
There was no grass roots rebellion against the Republic, I don't get why all of a sudden people are taking up arms to fight the Empire.

Uh, how about: under the Republic you got to elect those in charge of you, under the Empire it was more like "Do as you're told or else..."

If anything, the Empire only reflected the evils committed by the Republic...
...the Republic NEEDED to be toppled.


What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?
 
2012-02-21 03:02:39 PM  

akula: Fano: They started building the Death Star at the end of ROTS! Haven't they heard of just in time delivery? Sheesh

iat's more that when you watch the original trilogy, you have in mind an Empire that took a good deal of time to become fully recognized as unvarnished evil after having arisen from the ashes of a Republic that collapsed from its own corruption. Think in terms of how the Roman Empire came to be out of the Republic- it didn't happen overnight, and even then the Empire took generations to crumble from its own problems.

In the prequels all of that happens within a rather short span of time. It's a good but slow moving Republic in Ep 1, then twelve to fifteen years later it's corrupt, and a few short years later the people applaud the Empire that replaces it. Then in twenty years it becomes human-centric and hated by everybody. Oh, and by the way, they've also gone on a military buildup that was damn near instantaneous (consider how long it takes us to come out with ONE new aircraft carrier... they came out with whole classes of Star Destroyers in less time than that).

The entire timeline got farked up.


This is just the opinion of an annoying star wars geek, but I always figured that the Jedi Order was ALREADY on the ropes during the PT period. The Clone Wars would have been a last gasp free-for-all akin to the "Eugenics Wars" or some such. (Opposing sides using clones as assassins and spies, with some supersoldiers mixed in)

I realize that real life dictatorships like Stalin's and the Khmer Rouge have rewritten history in short order, but the Jedi memory was eradicated pretty quickly, it seems. The Republic made some mistakes but there was no real evidence of widespread corruption or anything. Dooku was sort of a step in the right direction but presumably there could have been a Jedi Civil war with.... know what, I'm going to stop right here because my musings will just get dumber.)

I'm sure the Clone Wars cartoons plus comic books could make things a little more complicated and interesting, but Palpatine's reign doesn't sound nearly as interesting as say, Ming the Merciless'. Now that guy had style, and some leadership techniques that Forbes could REALLY groove to.
 
2012-02-21 03:26:30 PM  

mike0023: akula:
There was no grass roots rebellion against the Republic, I don't get why all of a sudden people are taking up arms to fight the Empire.

Uh, how about: under the Republic you got to elect those in charge of you, under the Empire it was more like "Do as you're told or else..."

If anything, the Empire only reflected the evils committed by the Republic...
...the Republic NEEDED to be toppled.

What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?


Well being unable to stop, or even get a resolution condemning a planet-wide invasion of a peaceful planet because Some large corporations object to their new tarriffs, is, if not evil at least fatally weak.

And how is it that the Republic has no standing army but a commercial group like the trade federation can whip one up on demand? and Why (other than the fact that Lucas had once made reference to "the Clone Wars' and now needed to make up something) bother with cloned biologicals when droids seem to be cheap and plentiful? And if you insist on clones, why not cloned Wookies or some other species stronger and tougher than standard humans?
 
2012-02-21 03:32:11 PM  

mike0023: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?


It paid no heed to slavery. It made no attempt to establish law and order out in the boonies- hell, at least Tatooine had heard of storm troopers when they showed up in Ep IV. The decision making Senate could be easily diverted and deadlocked, keeping them from acting with speed when a member world was under siege. There is all this talk of the Republic's "values," but the only value ever really held up was democracy, and even that was shown to be ineffectual. The Republic was not showing much of any reason for people to fight FOR it other than it being portrayed as the good guy.

Magorn: The whole romance with princess Amidala was both stupid and unnecessary and frankly screws up the timeline badly. Luke is what, 18 in New Hope? How does Ben Kenobi age from a 30-40 something in the prime of his life, to a decrepit ancient in 20 years?


That's another thing that bugged me. Ben aged like milk, while Luke is barely an adult. The Lars family also must have been hit by that same old age truck as Kenobi. If Tatooine ages people that fast, Luke should have looked like he was 43.

The only patch Lucas put on this collapsed timeline was the plans for the Death Star are shown in Ep III, so its construction is accounted for. Still, there was no need for it to exist as of yet; the Tarkin doctrine was a good decade or more away at that point and the people were GLAD there was an Empire now.

Fano: I realize that real life dictatorships like Stalin's and the Khmer Rouge have rewritten history in short order, but the Jedi memory was eradicated pretty quickly, it seems.



This too. For comparison, we're 20 years since the first Gulf War, and we all remember that pretty damn well. However, in that same time span people no longer remember the Jedi and everything related to them is "from a bygone age." The folks talking about that bygone age are the same demographic group biatching about how much cheaper things were 50 years ago. Wholesale slaughter of the Jedi within relatively recent memory would still be cause for comment, if for nothing more than "You know who ELSE tried to eliminate passion from their lives?"
 
2012-02-21 03:37:59 PM  
akula: Fano: They started building the Death Star at the end of ROTS! Haven't they heard of just in time delivery? Sheesh

iat's more that when you watch the original trilogy, you have in mind an Empire that took a good deal of time to become fully recognized as unvarnished evil after having arisen from the ashes of a Republic that collapsed from its own corruption. Think in terms of how the Roman Empire came to be out of the Republic- it didn't happen overnight, and even then the Empire took generations to crumble from its own problems.

In the prequels all of that happens within a rather short span of time. It's a good but slow moving Republic in Ep 1, then twelve to fifteen years later it's corrupt, and a few short years later the people applaud the Empire that replaces it. Then in twenty years it becomes human-centric and hated by everybody. Oh, and by the way, they've also gone on a military buildup that was damn near instantaneous (consider how long it takes us to come out with ONE new aircraft carrier... they came out with whole classes of Star Destroyers in less time than that).

The entire timeline got farked up.


The Clone Wars, while fun and interesting, have not helped either. I keep wondering why we never see Osoka in the movies. TCW also makes us see just how good the Clones are at fighting.It makes you wonder just who it was that recruited for the Death Star? Those guys could not hit the broad side of a Moon, must less one man running straight down a corridor followed close by a big walking (running?) carpet!
 
2012-02-21 03:41:36 PM  

akula: mike0023: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?

...It made no attempt to establish law and order out in the boonies...


So, under your logic, during the time of the Wild West the U.S. government needed to be toppled? I beg to differ.
 
2012-02-21 03:43:14 PM  

Rude Turnip: The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made. Are you really admitting that you don't like books?


By sheer geek coincidence I'm re-reading those books for the first time in more than a decade. They still aren't good literature, but the pacing and scenes would lend themselves perfectly to a movie trilogy. Difficulty: original actors are super old and Lucas would need to be removed from the project.

/a nerd can dream
 
2012-02-21 03:49:20 PM  
The more the new trilogy fleshed out the 'out of Lucas's ass' details of the original trilogy you realize how shallow the original story was.
 
2012-02-21 03:55:46 PM  

Oznog: why are they "evil", anyways? I mean, do they have an ideology to this whole thing? What business are they IN, exactly?


Racial (species-ist?) hegemony, in a galaxy teeming with pan-human degenerates. How many non-human Imperial officers do you remember seeing?
 
2012-02-21 04:00:54 PM  

Zoidfarb: Rude Turnip: The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made. Are you really admitting that you don't like books?

By sheer geek coincidence I'm re-reading those books for the first time in more than a decade. They still aren't good literature, but the pacing and scenes would lend themselves perfectly to a movie trilogy. Difficulty: original actors are super old and Lucas would need to be removed from the project.

/a nerd can dream


I think I enjoy them because they visualize in one's mind so perfectly as what you would expect in a Star Wars movie. I was pissed when I heard the new trilogy was coming out and it was Episodes 1-3 instead of Thrawn.
 
2012-02-21 04:01:01 PM  

Perducci: There were still who-knows-how-many thousands of Imperial officers and troops throughout the galaxy. They may not have had a direct succession plan, but some of them must have been committed to the ideals and methods of the empire. The organization didn't have a single clear leader, but that doesn't mean it ceased to exist.


'how many thousands' is exactly the problem - because it's those very ones who are 'committed to the ideals and methods' who all WANT to be Emperor. Palpatine was scary enough to keep down succession attempts, and he deliberately set up the Empire to crash & burn with succession wars when/if he left.

ThirdGenerationImbecile: FTA: " because Admiral Ozzel took the Imperial Fleet out of lightspeed too close to the Hoth system"

I remember Vader saying he came out of hyperspace too soon ... implying they came out too FAR from the system. Is my memory incorrect?


I've heard it explained as him picking the worst distance to come in at - too close for a 'stealthy' entrance & approach, too far away for a surprise one.

Magorn: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?


I wouldn't say that it needed to be toppled, more that it was inevitable, with serious reform being the only possiblity. Things had degraded to the point that the Republic had less strength than the UN of today - you were getting 'petty'* wars and atrocities all the time, corruption, and abuse.

*Petty, when you're talking a galaxy spanning organization can still mean planets burned.

Well being unable to stop, or even get a resolution condemning a planet-wide invasion of a peaceful planet because Some large corporations object to their new tarriffs, is, if not evil at least fatally weak.

And how is it that the Republic has no standing army but a commercial group like the trade federation can whip one up on demand?

Part of the problem. I get the sense that there had been peace for way too long - for all their technological ability, the war waging abilities of ALL sides demonstrate a severe lack of experience. To be nice. You could also say 'competence'.

And if you insist on clones, why not cloned Wookies or some other species stronger and tougher than standard humans?

Humans were faster/cheaper? Wookies might not be any more blaster resistant, while being bigger targets that consumer more resources?
 
2012-02-21 04:01:51 PM  
This entire thread is why I love Fark.
 
2012-02-21 04:04:12 PM  

JohnCarter: Odd -

They failed to mention
- Cloning thousands of soldiers
- blowing up planets
- loosing track of your family
- loosing track of your enemies
- choosing a lava planet as your place of battle


About failing to force choke the living shiat out of people that can't spell LOSE (or losing) after the second grade!

/a Sith's pet peeve
 
2012-02-21 04:04:40 PM  

mike0023: akula: mike0023: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?

...It made no attempt to establish law and order out in the boonies...

So, under your logic, during the time of the Wild West the U.S. government needed to be toppled? I beg to differ.


So you don't consider the availability of faster than light travel and superluminal communication to be factors that MIGHT change things just a bit?

Even the Wild West had sheriffs- any lawless behaviors had more to do with the lack of technological advancement than it did with a refusal back in DC to do anything. The Republic Senate just flat didn't give a fark about things out in the Outer Rim.
 
2012-02-21 04:06:16 PM  
this thread had soo much potential...then it turned into a geek fanboi circle-jerk.
 
2012-02-21 04:46:55 PM  

akula: mike0023: akula: mike0023: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?

...It made no attempt to establish law and order out in the boonies...

So, under your logic, during the time of the Wild West the U.S. government needed to be toppled? I beg to differ.

So you don't consider the availability of faster than light travel and superluminal communication to be factors that MIGHT change things just a bit?

Even the Wild West had sheriffs- any lawless behaviors had more to do with the lack of technological advancement than it did with a refusal back in DC to do anything. The Republic Senate just flat didn't give a fark about things out in the Outer Rim.


Um, perhaps because the Outer Rim systems were NOT part of the Republic?
 
2012-02-21 04:54:34 PM  

peterthx: akula: mike0023: akula: mike0023: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?

...It made no attempt to establish law and order out in the boonies...

So, under your logic, during the time of the Wild West the U.S. government needed to be toppled? I beg to differ.

So you don't consider the availability of faster than light travel and superluminal communication to be factors that MIGHT change things just a bit?

Even the Wild West had sheriffs- any lawless behaviors had more to do with the lack of technological advancement than it did with a refusal back in DC to do anything. The Republic Senate just flat didn't give a fark about things out in the Outer Rim.

Um, perhaps because the Outer Rim systems were NOT part of the Republic?


They were. Naboo had their own representative in the Senate. People on Tatooine, which was basically next friggin' door, said that the Republic doesn't do much out there. They were in the Republic, but the Republic just didn't take an active interest in stuff that far our from the Core Worlds.
 
2012-02-21 04:57:48 PM  
mjjt:
Read a book from Cracked mag that argued that destroying the Death Star was actually bad long term because all of a sudden there were a whole lot of unemployed warriors running around in war machines with no source of fun and funds except rape, looting, piracy and rape

You said rape twice.
 
2012-02-21 05:06:40 PM  

Rude Turnip: beta_plus: JohnCarter: Odd -

They failed to mention
- Cloning thousands of soldiers
- blowing up planets
- loosing track of your family
- loosing track of your enemies
- choosing a lava planet as your place of battle

That's unfair bringint that up. None of those things appear in the only 3 films made, New Hope, Empire, and Return. It's a shame Lucas has never gotten around to making the prequel films.

/always wondered what it would be like if Quentin Tarrantino remaid the prequels
//Obi-One-Kenobe hacks up Anakin to "Stuck In the Middle With You"

A good amount of that stuff is covered in numerous books that are canon. The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made. Are you really admitting that you don't like books?


Sorry dude but Lucas has said nothing in the books is cannon, because it is his toy and he can't be bothered to read what he gave other people rights to do.
 
2012-02-21 05:16:53 PM  

akula: Fano: They started building the Death Star at the end of ROTS! Haven't they heard of just in time delivery? Sheesh

iat's more that when you watch the original trilogy, you have in mind an Empire that took a good deal of time to become fully recognized as unvarnished evil after having arisen from the ashes of a Republic that collapsed from its own corruption. Think in terms of how the Roman Empire came to be out of the Republic- it didn't happen overnight, and even then the Empire took generations to crumble from its own problems.

In the prequels all of that happens within a rather short span of time. It's a good but slow moving Republic in Ep 1, then twelve to fifteen years later it's corrupt, and a few short years later the people applaud the Empire that replaces it. Then in twenty years it becomes human-centric and hated by everybody. Oh, and by the way, they've also gone on a military buildup that was damn near instantaneous (consider how long it takes us to come out with ONE new aircraft carrier... they came out with whole classes of Star Destroyers in less time than that).

The entire timeline got farked up.


Except other then being bigger then anything else and mounting more guns they are not really an improvement over any other class of ship. Not to mention that Tie Fighters are cheap attack vessels, cheap to build, cheap to replace, and you never have to repair one of those.

Then of course their are those AT-AT walkers which you really have to ask yourself what idiot crony of the Emperor managed to get that contract. Finally you have the Death Star itself with it's fatal flaw and seeming inability to repulse a handful of fighter craft.

Oh and finally the Storm Troopers themselves, they all looked like they were given two weeks of marching in unison training and then turned loose to do vital jobs.

Sure the build up was large, but only because the Empire cut corners on everything, and failed to train their people. US Aircraft carriers take as long as you do, because we give a flying fark about how many of our troops actually survive the battles, but look at US ship building during WWII for how fast you can produce a shipping or combat capable pocket carrier if you want a real idea of how quickly a nation can gear up.
 
2012-02-21 05:17:30 PM  

BurnShrike:

And just like the Republic, the US shall fall (hopefully not to a Sith Lord though)


What?
 
2012-02-21 05:18:08 PM  

akula: peterthx: akula: mike0023: akula: mike0023: What "evils" did the Republic commit? Why did it "need" to be toppled?

...It made no attempt to establish law and order out in the boonies...

So, under your logic, during the time of the Wild West the U.S. government needed to be toppled? I beg to differ.

So you don't consider the availability of faster than light travel and superluminal communication to be factors that MIGHT change things just a bit?

Even the Wild West had sheriffs- any lawless behaviors had more to do with the lack of technological advancement than it did with a refusal back in DC to do anything. The Republic Senate just flat didn't give a fark about things out in the Outer Rim.

Um, perhaps because the Outer Rim systems were NOT part of the Republic?

They were. Naboo had their own representative in the Senate. People on Tatooine, which was basically next friggin' door, said that the Republic doesn't do much out there. They were in the Republic, but the Republic just didn't take an active interest in stuff that far our from the Core Worlds.


Naboo was remote and "on the border" as it were. Tatooine may have been the closest planet they could put down at, but it wasn't part of the Republic "Controlled by the Hutts!" "Republic credits aren't any good here", etc.

It's like saying the closest city to San Diego is Tijuana, but that's not part of the USA.
 
2012-02-21 05:21:53 PM  

a stainless steel rat:
The Clone Wars, while fun and interesting, have not helped either. I keep wondering why we never see Osoka in the movies. TCW also makes us see just how good the Clones are at fighting.It makes you wonder just who it was that recruited for the Death Star? Those guys could not hit the broad side of a Moon, must less one man running straight down a corridor followed close by a big walking (running?) carpet!


That can be easily explained!

If the stormtroopers are the same clones, then the problems brought on by the accelerated aging meant that the people in the white suits were basically all senile old farts by the time Luke et al were fighting them.

If the stormtroopers were new clones, then either the cloning machine didn't have parity checking, or Jango Fett's copyright had finally expired and the Empire was saving money by buying cheap knockoff clones from the Jawas.
 
2012-02-21 05:25:25 PM  

akula: Even the Wild West had sheriffs- any lawless behaviors had more to do with the lack of technological advancement than it did with a refusal back in DC to do anything. The Republic Senate just flat didn't give a fark about things out in the Outer Rim.


Also the actual amount of 'lawlessness' in the 'Wild West' is drastically overstated - actual reports have the developing sections having lower crime rates than the developed east coast did.

Sure, control wasn't as perfect, but that was indeed technology, more so than government. Plus, regions had greater local control.
 
2012-02-21 05:25:59 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Rude Turnip: beta_plus: JohnCarter: Odd -

They failed to mention
- Cloning thousands of soldiers
- blowing up planets
- loosing track of your family
- loosing track of your enemies
- choosing a lava planet as your place of battle

That's unfair bringint that up. None of those things appear in the only 3 films made, New Hope, Empire, and Return. It's a shame Lucas has never gotten around to making the prequel films.

/always wondered what it would be like if Quentin Tarrantino remaid the prequels
//Obi-One-Kenobe hacks up Anakin to "Stuck In the Middle With You"

A good amount of that stuff is covered in numerous books that are canon. The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made. Are you really admitting that you don't like books?

Sorry dude but Lucas has said nothing in the books is cannon, because it is his toy and he can't be bothered to read what he gave other people rights to do.


There's a pecking order of what's officially canon and what isn't. The fact that a lot of EU stuff made it into later movies, TV shows and games gives quite a bit of it a stamp of validity. For example, the name "Coruscant" was first mentioned in "Heir to the Empire," the first book of the Thrawn trilogy. But instead of debating, I'll just remind everyone that we're arguing over whose imaginary storyland galaxy is more real than the other's.
 
2012-02-21 05:31:07 PM  

Rude Turnip: There's a pecking order of what's officially canon and what isn't. The fact that a lot of EU stuff made it into later movies, TV shows and games gives quite a bit of it a stamp of validity. For example, the name "Coruscant" was first mentioned in "Heir to the Empire," the first book of the Thrawn trilogy. But instead of debating, I'll just remind everyone that we're arguing over whose imaginary storyland galaxy is more real than the other's.


I seem to remember Coruscant from the making of Return of the Jedi sketches by Ralph McQuarrie when the Galactic Capitol was being considered for the film.
 
2012-02-21 05:35:48 PM  

Firethorn: And how is it that the Republic has no standing army but a commercial group like the trade federation can whip one up on demand?

Part of the problem. I get the sense that there had been peace for way too long - for all their technological ability, the war waging abilities of ALL sides demonstrate a severe lack of experience. To be nice. You could also say 'competence'.


Spoilers:

This is explained in the novel, Darth Plagueis. Plagueis finances the Trade Federation via the Intergalactic Banking Clan and his alter ego, Hego Damask, over a period of decades via high interest loans and improbable taxation that promotes them to just be utterly fed up with the Republic. All this to build their army on fiat interest.

Plagueis does the same thing for the Clone Army and bills it to Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. Think of the Intergalactic Banking Clan as the IMF or World Bank. A massive banking cartel responsible for promoting and profiting off war to put their own into positions of power.



Lucas does acknowledge Darth Plagueis as movie canon since events of the book take place during Episode I leading up to the inaguration of Palpatine as Chancellor.
 
2012-02-21 05:45:43 PM  
What's everyones problem with the Empire? They're just trying to bring peace and stability to a crazy universe. And all those soldiers are just doing their patriotic duty and feeding their families. The Rebels are just Muslim extremists who will stop at nothing to destroy law and order. You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists.
 
2012-02-21 05:52:41 PM  
"Key Takeaway: It's essential to remember that failure is the engine of success."

Yeah, I tried using that line on my manager at a job once. I bet you can guess what happened next....
 
2012-02-21 06:01:53 PM  

Harry Freakstorm: ThirdGenerationImbecile
FTA: " because Admiral Ozzel took the Imperial Fleet out of lightspeed too close to the Hoth system"

I remember Vader saying he came out of hyperspace too soon ... implying they came out too FAR from the system. Is my memory incorrect?

And then they brought the DeathStar out on the other side of the gas giant making for a painfully slow drive around it to reach the rebel moon. A little mid course correction would have put them right on top of the moon. Charge laser. Fire. Miller time. Relax but just don't lean on that rail buddy, cause it aint there.


Can I put on my SW geek hat?

Hyperspace travel is bound by the mass of the objects in realspace. You can't hyperspace travel through a planet or star, the gravity will destabilize the hyperdrive and pull you out before you make it through. The more durable and more powerful the hyperdrive relative to the starship being propelled, the further into the mass shadow you can go before the drive gives out and plunges you back into realspace. The mass shadow of the gas giant Yavin necessitated the long travel through realspace to avoid dropping out too close to the massive planet and being unable to pull out of its gravitational pull. When you've got a multi-decade, incomprehensibly expensive battle station on the line that you assume has no weaknesses whatsoever, you play it safe and spend the extra half hour traveling at sublight speeds. I mean, what are the Rebels going to do, fly a starfighter up there and shoot a torpedo at your exhaust shaft? Like THAT would ever work!

Hoth was a similar situation of overly-cautious Imperials getting screwed for it. Ozzel was too concerned about coming out of hyperspace and crashing into Hoth, so he dropped the fleet out early on the outer edges of the system. This left the Rebels plenty of time during the slow sublight approach to raise the shields over their base, shields which Vader had wanted to destroy from orbit before they were activated. Ozzel's cowardice earned him an involuntary spot in the choking game.

All this concern about mass shadows (particularly unmapped mass shadows and dark matter shadows) means that hyperspace travel is generally from the edge of one system to the edge of another to avoid needing to calculate speeds and directions around the planets' mass shadows, and performed along prescribed hyperspace lanes that are well scouted, wide, and free of mass shadow interference from systems or nebula adjacent to the lane. It's safe and easy and doesn't require any complex calculations, so even the most basic of navcomputers and astromechs can get you to your destination intact.
 
2012-02-21 06:05:45 PM  

ThirdGenerationImbecile: FTA: " because Admiral Ozzel took the Imperial Fleet out of lightspeed too close to the Hoth system"

I remember Vader saying he came out of hyperspace too soon ... implying they came out too FAR from the system. Is my memory incorrect?


I think you are correct.
 
2012-02-21 06:11:40 PM  
Because we can learn from Galactic Empire as a role model?

/I'm OK with that
//welcome new overlords, etc.
 
2012-02-21 06:35:57 PM  
jagec: Oznog: Be that as it may... there's several flaws in that theory.
a) taxes are not featured prominently as issues in the Star Wars universe.
b) the Emperor does not drool over "and now, young Skywalker, observe our new marginal effective tax rate of 32%!!"
c) like I say, neither the Emperor nor Vader seem to have ANY use for money. Or power, really. Their writeups simply don't have motivation like this, and this wasn't addressed in the prequels either. Palpatine wanted to be president... but for what end this granted him personally, it's not really clear.
d) Exactly what effective marginal tax rate crosses the line into an "evil" percentage?

a)Why would they be? Taxes may be a big deal in the US, but that's only because we're a bunch of greedy, entitled morons. And look how much amazing military hardware our LOW tax rates can buy. The industrial output of multiple star systems could easily sustain a thriving civilian economy as well as the Empire's military, especially when you take the slave labor into account.

b)Yeah, we focus more on our F-22s and aircraft carriers than our tax policy, because the latter is more BORING. Again, so?

c)Neither does anyone in our own personal Senate. Power is its own reward. There is no need to write their specific "motivation" for gaining power, because it's human nature.

d)The tax rate has nothing to do with them being evil, one way OR the other.

Ruiizu:If you want to include all the movies, Episode 1's conflict is actually over taxes and trade.


Yes... except that was only a MEANS to incite a turnover of power to Palpatine. He did not envision a New Order in terms of unfair trade policies or exploitation taxes.

No, he had a "Sith ALL THE THINGS" motivation, which didn't make a lot of sense how that benefits him. Was he a mastermind who envisioned the Sith as a more effective ruling class, thus thought the universe was better off under Sith rule? That could be a parallel to say the Japanese militarization leading up to WWII, a dissatisfaction with a bureaucratic civilian government leading to an idea that military leaders would be more loyal and more effective. But there's no indication Palpatine subscribed to such a belief. He just... secretly likes being mean.
 
2012-02-21 06:41:29 PM  

BurnShrike: Rude Turnip: The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made.

Absolutely. That trilogy was incredible.


Except for the whole "clones have extra vowels" thing, I agree.
 
2012-02-21 07:01:57 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Rude Turnip: beta_plus: JohnCarter: Odd -

They failed to mention
- Cloning thousands of soldiers
- blowing up planets
- loosing track of your family
- loosing track of your enemies
- choosing a lava planet as your place of battle

That's unfair bringint that up. None of those things appear in the only 3 films made, New Hope, Empire, and Return. It's a shame Lucas has never gotten around to making the prequel films.

/always wondered what it would be like if Quentin Tarrantino remaid the prequels
//Obi-One-Kenobe hacks up Anakin to "Stuck In the Middle With You"

A good amount of that stuff is covered in numerous books that are canon. The Thrawn trilogy (which takes place after Jedi) in a movie form can easily go toe-to-toe against any of the movies that were already made. Are you really admitting that you don't like books?

Sorry dude but Lucas has said nothing in the books is cannon, because it is his toy and he can't be bothered to read what he gave other people rights to do.


And as alluded to by SithLord, one of Lucas' many personal shortcomings is that the "list" (for lack of a better term) of what is or is not canon seems to change depending on his mood, the time of the month, what he had for breakfast, etc...

//Too lazy to find who mentioned it upthread, but I'm having a blast with SW:ToR
 
2012-02-21 07:06:59 PM  

Sgt.Zim: And as alluded to by SithLord, one of Lucas' many personal shortcomings is that the "list" (for lack of a better term) of what is or is not canon seems to change depending on his mood, the time of the month, what he had for breakfast, etc...


That might have something to do with the fact that it's just a damn movie...
 
2012-02-21 07:26:08 PM  

Oznog:
Yes... except that was only a MEANS to incite a turnover of power to Palpatine. He did not envision a New Order in terms of unfair trade policies or exploitation taxes.

No, he had a "Sith ALL THE THINGS" motivation, which didn't make a lot of sense how that benefits him. Was he a mastermind who envisioned the Sith as a more effective ruling class, thus thought the universe was better off under Sith rule? That could be a parallel to say the Japanese militarization leading up to WWII, a dissatisfaction with a bureaucratic civilian government leading to an idea that military leaders would be more loyal and more effective. But there's no indication Palpatine subscribed to such a belief. He just... secretly likes being mean.


Well, the Sith ARE just a bunch of evil guys. Ultimately bringing the Republic and then the Empire into ruin may have been his goal to begin with---just to be evil.
 
2012-02-21 07:39:57 PM  

intelligent comment below: Sgt.Zim: And as alluded to by SithLord, one of Lucas' many personal shortcomings is that the "list" (for lack of a better term) of what is or is not canon seems to change depending on his mood, the time of the month, what he had for breakfast, etc...

That might have something to do with the fact that it's just a damn movie...


Hey, thanks for pointing that out... and all this time, I thought they were Historical Records.

Wow. The things you learn on Fark. It never ceases to amaze me.
 
2012-02-21 07:51:35 PM  
lisarenee3505        2012-02-21 05:52:41 PM  
"Key Takeaway: It's essential to remember that failure is the engine of success."

Yeah, I tried using that line on my manager at a job once. I bet you can guess what happened next....


You were force-choked?
 
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