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(Slate)   Liberals shouldn't homeschool their children, because homeschooling is a mistake   (slate.com) divider line 107
    More: Obvious, religious fundamentalism, secular humanists, public sphere, Dana Goldstein, liberals, coordinator, mistakes  
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17802 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Feb 2012 at 5:37 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-02-18 09:56:30 AM
12 votes:

Lsherm: Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive-by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

Well, it shouldn't shock anyone that an American liberal believes parents should forgo what is best for their children in order to best serve "the collective".


"Low-income kids earn higher test scores when they attend school alongside middle-class kids, while the test scores of privileged children are impervious to the influence of less-privileged peers."

The author is making the argument, rather convincingly, that privileged students suffer no harm by being educated with their less privileged peers. In fact, they come out better off in terms of being socially adept in diverse groups and having a deeper commitment to the civic institutions, including education, that make our country great.

The fact that you misquote TFA to make a snide political jab instead of using it as a frame for an interesting discussion is not at all flattering to your educators.
2012-02-18 09:11:30 AM
11 votes:
Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive-by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

Well, it shouldn't shock anyone that an American liberal believes parents should forgo what is best for their children in order to best serve "the collective".
2012-02-18 01:55:51 PM
6 votes:

Lsherm: Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive-by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

Well, it shouldn't shock anyone that an American liberal believes parents should forgo what is best for their children in order to best serve "the collective".


Read the quoted part again. Then again, very slowly. Read it aloud if you find that helps. Or you could ask a parent to explain it to you.

Then punch yourself in the balls for me, ok?
2012-02-18 05:58:23 PM
4 votes:

Kazan: one doesn't have the right to inflict ignorance on their offspring.


Oh? What law is this? I can claim any religious belief whatsoever falls under this umbrella, and therefore arrest 90% of all parents in the country.

Kazan, are you perpetually stoned? Or just always talking right out of your ass?
2012-02-18 05:51:07 PM
4 votes:

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.


i52.tinypic.com
2012-02-18 05:46:27 PM
4 votes:

ginandbacon: The fact that you misquote TFA to make a snide political jab instead of using it as a frame for an interesting discussion is not at all flattering to your educators.


Right on. Here is the actual quote:

Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive-by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


I was the nerdy kid that got picked on a lot. I was put into GT class (GEEKS AND TURDS! HAHA! *punch*), segregated from the majority of students anyway.

Which was OK by me. Because I did learn about other people in school.

Other people are dicks.
2012-02-18 01:56:54 PM
4 votes:
I'm a Liberal, but for the life of me I can't think of which of my values homeschooling would violate. Is there a newsletter for Progressives that I failed to sign up for when I got my Liberal membership card? Ideally, one that would tell me what my values should be so that I would know how violated I should feel when people homeschool their kids?
2012-02-18 01:12:39 PM
4 votes:

Lsherm: Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive-by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

Well, it shouldn't shock anyone that an American liberal believes parents should forgo what is best for their children in order to best serve "the collective".



Let me interpret for those of you who don't speak derp:

DERPDERP_I'm_a_racist_HERPADERPDERPDERP_libslibslibs_DERPDERP_i_faile d _science_and_reading_HERPADERP!
2012-02-18 07:20:35 PM
3 votes:

rebelyell2006: lilplatinum: Homeschooling is a form of child abuse.

Homeschooling is a religion.


Which is also a form of child abuse.
2012-02-18 06:50:44 PM
3 votes:

Popo Bawa: I live next door the to 30 year old product of homeschooling by an uber liberal.
What a mess. ....
IMO, homeschooling does nothing but create social retards.


So on the basis of one homeschooled person you know with poor social skills, you've decided that all homeschooling has this result. Did you learn your logical thinking skills at school?
2012-02-18 06:33:22 PM
3 votes:
Liberals by definition would make terrible home schoolers. Assuming their children avoided being aborted they would then be denied the indoctrination and spoon feeding of of rote liberal pablum and nonsense that you can only get in a liberal big government education factory. On the off chance a liberal does home school they will invariably fill their kids head with so many ideas designed to make them reliant on others they will produce a social cripple and tomorrows entitlement pariah without ever letting them meet their like-minded future "Occupy whatever" members. Who will then lead them around by the nose? How will they learn their PC catechism? Leave home schooling to conservatives so they can produce a generation of rugged individuals able to survive after liberalism and socialism create their inevitable bankrupt dysptopia. At least those kids will be able to traverse the smoking ruins of society and restart it using whatever leftover starving liberal drones they can assemble.
2012-02-18 05:49:53 PM
3 votes:
I live next door the to 30 year old product of homeschooling by an uber liberal.
What a mess.
Just as bad as if she'd been homeschooled by an uber fundie.
No understanding at all of basic social norms.
Cringe worthy comments constantly fly right out of her mouth as if there's no filter at all.
Consequently, no one wants to be withing 50 ft. of her for more than 30 seconds.
Missed all those crucial young years learning how to socialize with people.
Honestly, I don't think you ever get those back.

IMO, homeschooling does nothing but create social retards.
2012-02-18 03:11:39 PM
3 votes:

Kazan: penthesilea: Normally I'd drag out decades of studies and current stats. I'd post graphs & pie charts.

oh yeah? let's see this data. i presume you're trying to claim that home schooling is superior.


Nope.
Not today. Today I'm going to buy my kid new hiking boots and take a trip to Costco. I shouldn't let myself turn into the homeschool version of Bevets.
2012-02-18 03:00:41 PM
3 votes:
This article is so derp that I'm not even going to bother arguing against it.

Normally I'd drag out decades of studies and current stats. I'd post graphs & pie charts. Then give personal anecdotes that don't actually factually prove anything, but do give my side of the story.

Someone is wrong on the internet but I'm going to finish my interneting and go enjoy my day instead.

/liberal
//homeschooler
///more slashies
2012-02-18 02:12:52 PM
3 votes:
what the fark is it with the hate for public education... i don't understand it.. my teachers were as a rule skilled educators, the the fact that you reviewed what previously covered before a number of times did annoy me - but i know what many people don't retain things as quickly as i do.


perhaps i'm spoiled by having grown up in a state with schools run generally well and with teachers who were all good..... of course now all of my best teachers have retired early because budgetary pressure.

sure there are some problems - no tolerance policy stupidity, too much money being diverted from education to other thinsg.. but those are addressable... please explain the hate?


pudding7: ..


homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.
2012-02-18 02:00:25 PM
3 votes:

RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.


Isn't that just a preference? Personally I only do it when it's a full sentence, bugs me otherwise.

/end slight threadjack
2012-02-19 12:41:18 PM
2 votes:
Public schools are awesome if you want to learn what prison is like. Or learn about the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWI and WWII on an endless loop for 12 years. But only in the most cursory way. (Apparently Franz Ferdinand was so beloved that 35 million had to die to avenge him). Economics consists of "War is awesome for the economy!" Math has nothing to do with real life and English is taught so that the people who are lucky enough to learn how to read and write actually hate doing so.

You're ass out if you want to learn about the wars in Korea, Vietnam, Panama, South and Central America. shiat, we learned NOTHING about the Ottoman Empire. It just sort of loomed there on the map and then it was gone. Logic and Rhetoric aren't taught. Black history month is a nice touch but when you cram it all into February without tying it to actual events in history, you forget it. Add a bunch of bullying teachers and students, many of whom are perverts and it's no wonder our schools are failing. The only school my kid will be attending is Montessori when he's very young. If he wants to attend public high school, fine. He'll have his own mind by then.

/My husband, the English major, will be teaching him grammar, etc.
2012-02-18 11:06:24 PM
2 votes:

TheRameres: I consider myself a fairly intuitive person, but for the life of me I can't imagine trying to learn trigonometry for the first time off the Internet.


F*ck's sake, man, I taught myself trigonometry when I was a teenager using a high school math textbook (we didn't have time to do that particular subject in class) because I was bored. It wasn't that difficult, and I'm not even that good at math. Any adult of reasonable intelligence can get a grasp of most subjects if he is willing to take the time to lay the intellectual foundations beforehand, especially if these same subjects are routinely taught to high- schoolers. The whole idea that there is an arcane body of knowledge out there accessible only to those who have been initiated into the mysteries of teachers' college is a laughable superstition.
2012-02-18 08:49:13 PM
2 votes:
fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net

I'M TIRED OF ALL THE EMAIL NOTIFICATION SAYING YOU MOTHER F*CKERS ARE MENTIONING ME IN HERE SO I CAME TO SPEAK MY MIND.

As someone that was homeschooled, along with my brother and sister, I find it hilarious that all of you people are making these judgments because you've met some socially awkward homeschoolers and are all of the sudden experts. Here's what you don't realize.....you've also met a lot of normal homeschooled kids. You just don't know it, because those of us that are normal usually don't tell people we were homeschooled, because the second you tell someone you were homeschooled they're all ZOMG ARE YOUR PARENTS CRAZY OMG I BET THAT WAS SO WEIRD and treat you differently. And make obnoxious jokes.

Homeschooling, if done correctly, involves socialization. I had a co-op group with other families that homeschooled their kids. I did my homework every day like normal kids.... but also (on a weekly basis) went horseback riding, took pottery classes, played organized sports every season, took swimming lessons and gymnastics, went skiing in the winters every week, went on educational field trips........ we even put on plays sometimes. It was fun. I had a very good experience homeschooling my kids. And, contrary to what most people think, homeschooling involves the parents very little. I taught myself almost everything. Every text book teaches you how to do stuff very well. All you had to do is read it. When I'd get stuck, my mom would help me. You don't need a teaching degree to homeschool your kids.

You might think homeschooling is bad, but that's because a lot of the people that homeschool their kids are doing it for the wrong reasons. They're doing it because they're afraid of their kids being exposed to the "real world" so they shelter them. THAT is what creates a f*cked up kid. Normal parents who want their kids to have a good education and do what's best for them while they're homeschooled by getting them involved in sports and activities and make sure they see their friends regularly.... those kids turn out just fine. You just don't know it, because we won't talk about it much. I personally was homeschooled because my parents were poor, and the public schools I would've gone to were some of the worst in the country, and my parents didn't want that for me. THANK. GOD. I am so glad that they kept me at home.

With that said, here's a video of my homeschooled brother (suspenders), and my homeschooler sister (bride), doing the dougie.

fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net

Oh yeah, and this is a picture of us on one of our awesome zoo trips. I'm pretty sure this is the time when I tried to feed goats at the petting zoo and I thought the pebble size turds on the ground were food and fed them to the goats and then cried when my mom told me it was poop because I was embarrassed. And yeah, my brother's chain is awesome, don't be jealous.
Skr
2012-02-18 08:40:26 PM
2 votes:
I figure if more people did homeschooling the correct way, then there would also be many more intelligent parents out there. I figure a good homeschooling situation is one where the parent is relearning and reviewing all of the things they are teaching their child.
2012-02-18 07:09:47 PM
2 votes:
Some of my wife's comments when she read this article are pasted below. Her degree is in secondary education with a double major in English and math.

...The arguments about social diversity do not apply, and the argument about putting every kid in the school system to improve them is a bit silly. In our town, we walk around frequently and talk to many different people. We are known by most of the local business owners and many citizens because of our involvement in the community. When we go to the library, we converse with the librarians and also quite a few of the patrons, because we have taken the time to get to know so many people. My children, have a better understanding of diversity and community involvement because they are not in a school all day long with children of their exact age and neighborhood. School is not the only place to influence people. Taking something that is broken or on its way to being broken and embracing it and hoping it fixes itself is a fool's hope. It is moronic to ask parents to sacrifice their own children for the sake of other kids who are not getting the attention at home. Our kids play with other kids that are not getting attention at home, but they don't need to spend seven hours a day with them.
2012-02-18 06:59:15 PM
2 votes:

Chimpasaurus: I was never a believer in homeschooling, and thought they were all weird, unsocialized people. But now that I'm older and see that America has gone to hell, I'm thinking homeschooling is the only option. Luckily, I grew up in a district with a pretty good education system, but even the "good" schools have seriously lowered their standards. In just my 3 yrs, the advanced program went from accepting 10 people to accepting everyone and marketing it as an enrichment program for all.

But the education isn't even the worst of it. Why would I want to send my kid to a school with metal detectors, security guards crawling up your arse when you want to go to the bathroom, and food police telling me what I should feed my kid? Lately I've been seeing stories about kids getting arrested for playing on the playground and parents having their kids taken away because it was 5 min late to school. It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.


I wasn't homeschooled, but I took a many of my classes at the JCC, and that was a tons better experience because the students at a JCC want to be there.

I've met great kids that have been publically schooled and homeschooled, and total douchebags and social retards from both.

I went to college and found that the courses at the JCC had prepared me for college, and I placed out, and my high school courses were jokes.

I think parents have to decide for themselves based on their kids, their resources, and their local conditions. I wouldn't home school my kids because I would be terrible at it. (Amongst other reasons.)

I think the worse thing to do is as Dana suggests and let progressive bullying force you to do something to your kids because you want to feel good. I don't see how that is progressive at all.
2012-02-18 06:58:40 PM
2 votes:
If you're that paranoid about your kids being out there in the big, cruel world, instead of being safe at home under your watch, you shouldn't have kids in the first farking place.
2012-02-18 06:56:31 PM
2 votes:

CUZN_Ovoids: Last time I talked to a home-schooled kid at a church function, here's the conversation at a picnic table


That kid's parents would fill their head with garbage no matter what. If sending kids to public school is seen as a solution to parents teaching their kids stupid shiat, well, why stop there?

Why not just remove the kids from their parents home and be done with it? For their own good, of course.
2012-02-18 06:47:12 PM
2 votes:
Remember when home schooled kids were that way because their parents lived in some way out settlement in the Yukon. Books had to be air dropped to them, or they received some of their lessons via satellite TV?
Last time I talked to a home-schooled kid at a church function, here's the conversation at a picnic table:
Me: Hey kid, how's it going?
Kid: Let me tell you why the big bang didn't really happen...
Me: Hold on a second there kid, you are like eight or nine right?
Kid: ..eight and a half..
Me: ..and you are able refute fifty years of physics, mathematics, and other related scientific findings?
Kid: ...physi...
Me: Hey Kid, want to know how jets fly?
Kid: Yeah, sure!
Me: Because of internal combustion jet engines, aerodynamics, hydraulics, chemically engineered fuels and materials, advanced computer systems, years of pilot training, and dozens other really cool things, but you know what?
Kid: What?
Me: Jesus nor the bible tells us anything about jets, yet there is one flying right over us, want to know why?
Kid: Huh?
Me: Because Jesus wasn't here to teach us science.
2012-02-18 06:44:51 PM
2 votes:

Arctic Phoenix: culebra: I went through the public education meat grinder (in California, no less), getting ridiculed for various reasons, picked on by teachers who were no more mature than my peers (maybe even less), and being subjected to arbitrary disciplinary procedures.

I wouldn't have it any other way, honestly. I understand what institutions do to people, what society is like, and how petulant adults can be when handed the slightest bit of authority. The key is that I didn't let it make me bitter. I found enough joy and wisdom there to make it worthwhile, and have no problem sending my son to public school. He is doing better than I because, (unlike myself), he went in with the requisite social skills.

I bear home-schoolers no ill will. I think it can be done successfully from an academic perspective, but I think it is very difficult to prepare home-schooled children for the realities of the larger society, which is of course an important element of public schooling. Perhaps the primary one. The thing you have to be mindful of with public school is that your kids are really learning, and that you are doing plenty of teaching at home instead of relying on the school for all of it.

I disagree with the bolded. I think it's easier for homeschooled kids to be prepared for the realities of the larger society because they are better able to EXPERIENCE society to a greater extent. In a school, you're shut up in a classroom with a group of people your own age. You aren't encouraged to interact with others that are either younger or older than you. School should solely be about education. Now, granted, to a certain degree education DOES prepare children for the realities of the larger society, but that's only one aspect of being a successful member of society.

The last time that I, personally, used something that I learned in 7th grade history, for example, was... well, probably 7th or 8th grade. MAYBE high school. My point is more that most of the actual things you learn ...


In an ideal setting I can understand how home-schooling would prepare a person for society at large, but it seems to be the exception to the rule. Society is institutions, hierarchies, peer groups and power struggles. How does home-schooling prepare people to deal with these realities when it often actively avoids dealing with them?

As for college, it does prepare us for adult life in a lot of unique ways. However, the primary processes of socialization are already ingrained by grade 3, and are broadened and galvanized through secondary education. These experiences are difficult to replicate at home, though it is possible. It's why home-schooled kids can have a lot of trouble in college. The groundwork has been laid in a completely different way for these people (not a bad thing) and yet they are trying to prepare to compete in a world where the norm is public education. I don't envy them, though they may be incredibly bright.
2012-02-18 06:42:30 PM
2 votes:

Forgot_my_password_again: Don't Teach Your Children. The World Needs Republicans.


Yet of those without HS diplomas, 66% voted for Obama. In fact, in the last 5 elections, the majority of the 'uneducated' voted Democrat every time. Let me guess how you voted...
2012-02-18 06:37:26 PM
2 votes:

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


Last year, we were at our Valentine's day party for the homeschool group we belong to. The party was in the middle of the afternoon on Valentine's day (Monday). There were 30+ families there (there's 80-something families on the membership roll). Out in the field, there were many children, ages ranging from 4 to 17, all playing together and having a great time. A guy came up to the parents and asked "What are you all doing? Kids not in school today?". He was told about the party and homeschooling and, I kid you not, the first question out of his mouth was "Homeschooling? What about socialization?".

So, please excuse me while I do this:

images.icanhascheezburger.com

And you're right, I have no faith in the public school system. When a child (not mine, thankfully, or heads would roll) comes home crying every day because her teacher has called her dumb & stupid, then I have jack point shiat worth of faith or respect. And I find it funny & ironic that most of the people I've seen & heard immediately discount homeschooling don't even have children.
2012-02-18 06:35:53 PM
2 votes:
This is why liberal concentration camps are the best concentration camps.
2012-02-18 06:26:57 PM
2 votes:
I went through the public education meat grinder (in California, no less), getting ridiculed for various reasons, picked on by teachers who were no more mature than my peers (maybe even less), and being subjected to arbitrary disciplinary procedures.

I wouldn't have it any other way, honestly. I understand what institutions do to people, what society is like, and how petulant adults can be when handed the slightest bit of authority. The key is that I didn't let it make me bitter. I found enough joy and wisdom there to make it worthwhile, and have no problem sending my son to public school. He is doing better than I because, (unlike myself), he went in with the requisite social skills.

I bear home-schoolers no ill will. I think it can be done successfully from an academic perspective, but I think it is very difficult to prepare home-schooled children for the realities of the larger society, which is of course an important element of public schooling. Perhaps the primary one. The thing you have to be mindful of with public school is that your kids are really learning, and that you are doing plenty of teaching at home instead of relying on the school for all of it.
2012-02-18 06:22:17 PM
2 votes:
FeedTheCollapse:
it seems to be a case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when it comes to dealing with problems in public schools. No system is perfect, but instead of trying to eliminate/correct problems, they would rather just say "fark it" and do away with the whole thing. It's also people in power who don't see the value in an educated populace just because they're not directly benefited monetarily see the danger of an educated public who can think critically, and thus promote social movements to oppose this.

Religious "leaders" in particular promote the idea that exposing Christian kids to the "world" will corrupt them... because it probably will. Corrupt them with reason and doubt that is. How can you keep fleecing your parishioners if they start to doubt that Jesus wants you to have a $600 haircut and a helipad behind the church?

Public schooling is sort of like vaccination. If most people do it, it generally benefits society. But if a lot of people opt out of it, things rapidly go down the shiatter for everyone. And yes, as the article says, homeschooling IS a luxury that a lot of people simply cannot manage. Two working- to middle-class incomes are needed to provide for a family in most places.
2012-02-18 06:20:54 PM
2 votes:

ansius: Jesus F Christ on a crutch, can't you dim wits just let your kids play with other kids, explore the world, find things out for themselves without you being so concerned that they're learning things differently to what you learned, differently to how you learned it.

If they need some extra help, then help them with homework, don't take them out of society and put them in your own little terrarium to pander to your anxieties.


Some parents DO homeschool their kids for academic purposes, and not because their kids might learn something the parents disapprove of.

And, for what it's worth, the students that I went to college with that were homeschooled were better able to handle college level course work and to adapt to life in college than the kids that went to public school. I would imagine that this is the result of social interactions.

Think about this: Kids that go to a school (public OR private) only really interact with other kids their age. Kids that are homeschooled pretty much HAVE to interact with other individuals of all ages.

/You make your choices for your kids, I'll make mine
//Whatever they may be
///Unless said choice results in obvious and blatant harm
//Live and let live?
/Slash and let slash!
2012-02-18 06:11:24 PM
2 votes:
Jesus F Christ on a crutch, can't you dim wits just let your kids play with other kids, explore the world, find things out for themselves without you being so concerned that they're learning things differently to what you learned, differently to how you learned it.

If they need some extra help, then help them with homework, don't take them out of society and put them in your own little terrarium to pander to your anxieties.
2012-02-18 06:06:54 PM
2 votes:

pudding7: I'm a Liberal, but for the life of me I can't think of which of my values homeschooling would violate. Is there a newsletter for Progressives that I failed to sign up for when I got my Liberal membership card? Ideally, one that would tell me what my values should be so that I would know how violated I should feel when people homeschool their kids?


I'm a Green, and there's nothing sacred about our public education system. France pioneered the concept as a tool of cultural hegemony back in its imperialistic days. In the US the current system was put in place to indoctrinate children into the ways of the factory with lines, established bathroom breaks, etc. Some education majors at my alma mater insisted that scholastic achievement was less important than ensuring all students were infused with an American culture and that all vestiges of other value systems and perspectives were stripped from them. As an applied anthropology major I was apalled. But as I quickly learned, education and business schools live in their own realities.

Public education should be available. But our current system is a bad acid trip version of what it should be.
2012-02-18 05:53:38 PM
2 votes:

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.

Because there is no other way for your kids to meet people unless it is in a government-approved setting....

it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.

Yes. It does.

THAT'S THE POINT.

2012-02-18 05:44:01 PM
2 votes:

ginandbacon: The author is making the argument, rather convincingly, that privileged students suffer no harm by being educated with their less privileged peers. In fact, they come out better off in terms of being socially adept in diverse groups and having a deeper commitment to the civic institutions, including education, that make our country great.


The problem is that you can't separate the effect of schooling from the limits of the test here. They're simply defining a max beyond which the test does not go, they can't see if the better kids could have gone past that max.

On the other hand, it sounds like a pretty bad case of parenting here--if you're going to homeschool you actually have to do it.
2012-02-18 02:40:00 PM
2 votes:

doyner: The computers at your school didn't have a "shift" key did they?


when you cannot dispute the content, attack the delivery.
2012-02-19 01:32:10 PM
1 votes:

DIGITALgimpus: Homeschooling can't be healthy psychologically.

Experience is when someone says "I was homeschooled" (for more than a year or so), the reaction is normally "that explains the crazy".


Learning to interact with people, and work in groups is one of the most important things about school... and you totally lack that home schooling.

No, your neighbor and your sibling don't count... there's nothing to working with the same 2 or 3 people over and over again.

Anyone who went to private or public school likely did group projects with 100+ (often many more) people over the 12 years before college. That's a huge lesson. And when you get a job... the most important one. Even a small school over 12 years has enough churn so you had 100+ classmates. Larger school and you had a class with several thousand students.


I suspect the private tutors and homeschooling also play a little role in child celebrities growing up to be as disturbed as they often are... if you noticed, the ones who grow up normal almost always attended high school... I suspect this correlation matters.

1:1 ratio can't be good for you long term. Life doesn't work that way.


What kind of turnover do you have in your job where you have to work on group projects with 100+ different people? Maybe it's just a difference in employment, but when I was in the workforce, I was FREQUENTLY working with only 5 or fewer people on an ongoing basis and a smattering of others in a cursory capacity.

That being said, you make the same mistake that everybody else does about homeschooling: the assumption that homeschoolers never leave their home or interact with those outside of their families. The most recent studies show that the average homeschooler is involved in 3-4 activities outside the home: Scouting, 4-H, gymnastics, martial arts, choir, athletics, etc. In other words, homeschoolers are working with LOTS of other kids on an ongoing basis. But homeschoolers have an added advantage, in that they have opportunities to work with and interact with adults and people of all ages. I personally know several homeschoolers that volunteer to visit the elderly or the disabled in nursing homes, that work at homeless shelters or soup kitchens, or that volunteer at other community organizations. In those capacities, they're learning a lot more diverse social skills than what they would learn from being sequestered with a group of children their same age, race, and socio-economic status.

And your experience with group projects was not universal. I was the geek, and I cared about my grade. So whenever we were assigned to work in groups (in school), I would tell my group, "I don't want your help because you're going to screw it up and bring down my grade. So how about I do the project and you guys can look busy and get an easy A?" I never had anybody turn me down. My point here is that all those "group projects" never made me good at working in groups! They only made me despise the idiots I was surrounded with and do everything I could to keep them from farking up my own efforts to make the top 10 in my class. Is that the lesson we're supposed to learn? To give idiots something to make them look busy and keep them from farking things up?
2012-02-19 01:13:56 AM
1 votes:
I'm gonna regret this...

I spent 5 years of middle school & high school being physically and sexually assaulted on at least a weekly basis. Nobody ever helped me. Nobody ever even TRIED. In fact, when my "peers" found out about it, they laughed at me.

We homeschool. Our local elementary school is about 75% white and 25% Hispanic. There are exactly TWO black children in the school, and they're foster children. There are no Asian children whatsoever. Everybody is middle class or lower middle class with a HANDFUL of upper middle class (but they're rare). There is not a single male on the faculty. There is not a single non-White teacher, instructor, or "professional" (there are a few Hispanics in the cafeteria & the janitorial staff). There is no black person on the entire staff. This is a school that does NOT teach evolution (despite state law) and by the time they hit middle school, teaches "abstinence-only" sex ed which is wholly inaccurate. And it's NOT a school that is amenable to change!

So we homeschool and we get out in our community. We do our "core" curriculum as a combination of worksheets and Internet-based learning games & tests. We write letters to family members as a writing enrichment, and we read a LOT. As for socialization, the kids do Boy Scouts and Tae Kwon Do class in racially and economically-integrated groups. (If they were in public school, their Boy Scout troop would be based on their elementary school, so it would be as White and middle class as their school.) Their Tae Kwon Do class is about 40% white, 30% Hispanic, and 10% each Asian & Black. In addition, we love Mexican food & Asian food, so we frequently drive to the other end of town to visit the Mercado (Hispanic market) and the Asian market; as a result, they've learned smatterings of Spanish, Vietnamese, and Laotian. They can talk to people of all races & backgrounds because they're frequently surrounded by people of all races & backgrounds. They would NOT have that diversity in their local public school.
2012-02-18 11:44:56 PM
1 votes:
I can't believe you all sit here and argue about this over and over again. These threads are as pointless as the ones where everyone says, "Men are like this....." and "women do this....." Yeah, sure they do. Everyone is exactly the same, and all homeschooled kids are just the same. Just like public school kids are all the same.
2012-02-18 11:34:27 PM
1 votes:

santadog: /// they only see white people.


Can I be the first to ask: so what if they only see white people? Are white people cursed? Would you consider Japanese children to be deprived if they only saw Asian people growing up, or Congolese children to be deprived if they only saw African people? This kind of reflexive and totally mindless white self- loathing is in fact one very good reason why children of European descent should be kept out of the public schools: not because they ought to be taught that they are superior, but because they ought not to be made to feel ashamed of their ancestry or of the fact that they normally associate with people who look like themselves (as the vast majority of people of all races do in any case).

And of course, it's always the people who consider themselves "anti- racist" who are the most adamant that certain institutions, cities, and countries are effectively "too white". It's almost as if "anti- racist" actually meant "anti- white"...

/"whaaa! you're a racist!"
2012-02-18 11:31:56 PM
1 votes:

TheRameres: I'm an engineer - by default, I'm allowed a free pass on grammar and spelling mistakes if Word isn't there to flag it. Thank God though you're here to point it out.


t1.gstatic.com
2012-02-18 11:31:15 PM
1 votes:

jaybeezey: It always amazese when libs and cons get bent out of shape over inconsequential things.

Please everyone, continue to mud sling...


Amezese? Pretty good on toast I guess.
Mud slinging? Sure. Thanks for giving Fark.com permission to continue to exist.

You may wish to entertain the fact that everyone here is pretty bored, probably drunk, and with rare exceptions aren't getting bent out of shape. Slinging mud, though? You'd better believe it.

Enjoy your amezese.
2012-02-18 11:17:46 PM
1 votes:

Cymbal: There is nothing wrong with being authoritarian when you are right.


t1.gstatic.com

...

t1.gstatic.com
2012-02-18 11:00:11 PM
1 votes:
Here's what I've learned from the conversation. We know that homeschoolers score roughly 37 PERCENTILE points higher on standardized tests than public school kids. According to Fark, most homeschooled kids are being homeschooled because their parents are religious nuts. Conclusion=> Religious nuts are either really awesome teachers, they are genetically superior and naturally more intelligent than the rest of us or public schools suck by such epic amounts that the people that think the world is 6000 years old are running in circles around them. Recommended courses of action: either hire religious nuts to teach, bow down to our new religious overlords or flee like rats from a sinking ship from the public school system.
2012-02-18 08:20:52 PM
1 votes:

SuperTramp: Henslow
You are worlds away from being able to picture my kids' environment and diversity they're exposed to.

I would love to hear about the field trips.


Charity food drives, spending time at libraries, visiting art and historic museums, organic farms, music concerts...were you serious or just shaped by your pre-conceived notions?
2012-02-18 08:15:47 PM
1 votes:

Nancy Grace's Billowing Face Vents: I here you... I am an atheist-scientist.

But i think the formative years should be more about self-esteem.


And learning about how not to confuse homonyms ..
2012-02-18 07:52:04 PM
1 votes:

armageddonbound: I've met more than 50 homeschooled kids. Not one of them was able to function in society at a high level. NOT ONE. Anecdote? Yes, but a powerful one.


I'm sure that there are demographic groups that run both ways. We participate in a homeschool group that meets once a week where additional classes are taught. You have dozens of homeschooled kids for your anecdotal evidence in one shot. Almost all of them are well-adjusted, and seem on their way to being at this high level you think they're incapable of. Many universities (including Ivy league schools) court homeschooled children because they recognize how many have been given an education that can't be matched in the public schools.
2012-02-18 07:34:11 PM
1 votes:
Homeschooling is for parents with the time, money, and inclination to teach a gifted or special-needs student. That's it. And 'unschooling' is idiotic.

/Homeschooled until HS
//Best decision my mom could have made for me
2012-02-18 07:27:11 PM
1 votes:

lilplatinum: Homeschooling is a form of child abuse.


Hitting your children is child abuse. Yelling at and insulting your children is child abuse. Neglecting your children is child abuse.

Sending your children to a place where they will be hit, yelled at, insulted, and neglected? That's socialization.
2012-02-18 07:25:04 PM
1 votes:
People who make "liberal" and "conservative" in the US as a part of their identity (read: Democrap/Republishiat respectively) are already farked in the head. Taking their crotchspawn out and away from the general pop to be indoctrinated in whatever the current flavor of political coolness is better than letting them learn stupid shiat at home and influence others with stupidity.

On the other hand, if they are naturally "gifted", it offers the opportunity for them to accelerate instead of being behind. School isn't the only social interaction you can have at that age. In fact, at school, there's usually a rule (at least back when I went) where you couldn't socialize through talking or passing notes except during a one hour break for lunch. They spend the majority of their time "with" (listening to) the teachers who hate their jobs because they weren't good enough to get into their field of study (in many cases, not all) and are just doing it for the paycheck, and the teachers really just want to go all pedo on them.

It's especially entertaining that this libtard in TFA is completely against diversity in upbringing. Hardcore libtards just want drones because they're after having the same thing as the conservaderps: having a pliable underclass to manipulate while the political class exploits them. They just use different rhetoric to inflame the masses, so pick your cup o' poison.

The argument is that you learn to "deal with people" better in public schools. Well, if they'd learned to deal with others so well, it won't fark up their day too bad to deal with someone who didn't. Diversity includes tolerating people you aren't accustomed to dealing with.

While I agree the indoctrination on either side of the political spectrum is stupid, there's nothing non-progressive or non-conservative about taking care of your own child's education if you're capable of doing so, no matter whether it's due to wealth, intelligence, or circumstance. There should be no worry to you politically-oriented droogs who hate it. After they turn 18 and enter the workforce, you won't be able to tell the difference between them and another co-worker because they'll be just like you: scarfing down double cheese-burgers and tossing the wrapper out the window while sucking down camel lights (because they're healthier!) and pretending that their vices are more ethical than your vices, buying the washing machine and electric tin opener, telling you that we are in the moral right because we got the bombs, baby--two words: nuclear farking weapons, and so long as we choose life with the car, the big farking television, the life insurance and tax exemptions, we'll tune into the right television channel, and it'll tell us that every politician is a bastard, but you gotta vote for the one that isn't so bad or THEY will win.

Don't worry, those homeschool kids will become scum just like the rest of us.
2012-02-18 07:22:33 PM
1 votes:

falkone32: So, I'll just say that "homeschooling" implies authoritarianism and provincialism. You can't provide a diverse education without some actual diversity. More to the point, "You" (as in, a single person or group of like-minded people) simply cannot provide a diverse education. That's not how diversity works.


I don't understand. If a parent on their own can't provide a diverse education, how can a primary school teacher do it? If a group of parents can't provide diverse education, how can a teaching staff do it? What the hell's a "diverse" education anyway?

As for "authoritarianism" ... I can't think of anything much more authoritarian than a group of thirty children sitting down together, learning the same stuff from the same textbooks and controlled by a powerful figure sitting at the front of the room.

I'll leave "provincialism" now because I can't even begin to guess what it means.
2012-02-18 07:19:24 PM
1 votes:

lilplatinum: Homeschooling is a form of child abuse.


Homeschooling is a religion.
2012-02-18 07:12:48 PM
1 votes:

DarthBart: When a child (not mine, thankfully, or heads would roll) comes home crying every day because her teacher has called her dumb & stupid, then I have jack point shiat worth of faith or respect.


Actually, I'd rather see that than to see an unintelligent child coddled like they are geniuses, while the truly gifted children in a class are treated as if they are just as incompetent as the rest of the slack-jawed yokels with whom they learn.
2012-02-18 07:01:07 PM
1 votes:

DarthBart: Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.

...And I find it funny & ironic that most of the people I've seen & heard immediately discount homeschooling don't even have children.


Well said--I remember homeschooling field trips with 40+ kids attending myself. And I have a suspicion that Kazan is trolling anyway.

This article talks about extreme "progressive" notions of homeschooling. Many other negative stereotypes of homeschooling are due to the extreme conservative and religious types. Both are extremes, and there are large numbers of "normal", rational people homeschooling their kids in the meaty center of the bell curve because the educational system in this country is patently broken.

The socialization aspect is also suspect--if we went back to a one-room-schoolhouse type system where kids of varying ages learned from each other and could socialize and become friends with people at their own stage of development (which doesn't always have much to do with absolute age), then school system socialization might be a positive. But it's not even close to being that way.

I find myself occupying a middle ground in this debate--I was homeschooled until I started public school in 4th grade, and what I learned in those young years--not just factual information, but practical knowledge and a general love of learning--carried me not only through high school but through university and into the working world. I think some combination is important, whether it's attending public school for high school only, or joining local groups like Boy/Girl Scouts or town sports teams.

/On a related note, I highly recommend anyone concerned about the state of education in this country to read John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education (new window).
2012-02-18 06:59:54 PM
1 votes:

Chimpasaurus: America has gone to hell


I can just tell the proceeding is going to be extremely rational.

Chimpasaurus: It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.


My neighborhood is incredibly safe, and so is my son's school.

Chimpasaurus: Lately I've been seeing stories about kids getting arrested for playing on the playground and parents having their kids taken away because it was 5 min late to school. It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.


So you're concerned about America "going to hell" but you'll go ahead and promote media sensationalism regarding exceptions to the rule?
2012-02-18 06:58:08 PM
1 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: Because there is no other way for your kids to meet people unless it is in a government-approved setting....


If you think kids interact with others at school under the auspices of the government, you're a f*cking idiot.
2012-02-18 06:57:27 PM
1 votes:
quickdraw:
If you want to prepare your child to be a cubicle drone public schooling is ideal. If you want them to learn critical thinking and collaboration in a peer environment then you have to get them out of their tidy rows of desks and into the real world.

WTF? I work with a lot of bright and talented scientists, almost all of whom attended public schools. Imagine that. Some are brighter than others, some are assholes, but none are "cubicle drones". Of course I live in Canada, land of a functional social compact.

It's complete bullshiat that the people who whine the loudest about how bad public schools are have the least interest in fixing them, but instead want to abandon ship because hey, THEY can spare the time and $$ to homeschool.
2012-02-18 06:55:42 PM
1 votes:

Chimpasaurus: It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.


I understand your frustration but it's not that bad yet. You can find good public schools but you may have to move. Look for small college towns with a decent income per capita.
2012-02-18 06:53:44 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: perhaps i'm spoiled by having grown up in a state with schools run generally well and with teachers who were all good..... of course now all of my best teachers have retired early because budgetary pressure.


Around here (California) the best teachers don't get to retire due to budgetary pressures, they get laid off. Union seniority rules assure that the young, non-burntout, enthusiastic ones are the first to go, while the doddering timeservers who were rotated into office work a decade ago get reluctantly pulled back into classrooms to replace them. And why are there budgetary pressures you ask (you did ask, didn't you)? Because schools have turned into bloated, sclerotic apparatchikocracies, whose raison d'être is pulling in the maximum amount of money to grow their size and influence, and provide increasingly generous benefits for those who crew them.
2012-02-18 06:53:34 PM
1 votes:

ansius: Jesus F Christ on a crutch, can't you dim wits just let your kids play with other kids, explore the world, find things out for themselves without you being so concerned that they're learning things differently to what you learned, differently to how you learned it.


The advantages of homeschooling in a nutshell. Thank you.
2012-02-18 06:52:15 PM
1 votes:
I was never a believer in homeschooling, and thought they were all weird, unsocialized people. But now that I'm older and see that America has gone to hell, I'm thinking homeschooling is the only option. Luckily, I grew up in a district with a pretty good education system, but even the "good" schools have seriously lowered their standards. In just my 3 yrs, the advanced program went from accepting 10 people to accepting everyone and marketing it as an enrichment program for all.

But the education isn't even the worst of it. Why would I want to send my kid to a school with metal detectors, security guards crawling up your arse when you want to go to the bathroom, and food police telling me what I should feed my kid? Lately I've been seeing stories about kids getting arrested for playing on the playground and parents having their kids taken away because it was 5 min late to school. It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.
2012-02-18 06:51:53 PM
1 votes:

orbister: Lsherm:
Huh, we agree on something. Home schooling should not be used to create substandard students.

Neither should schools, but they do, in huge numbers.


Is this strictly the fault of the institution, or do the parents who rely overly on the institution bear part of the blame?
2012-02-18 06:48:54 PM
1 votes:

Mentat: I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone.


Yeah, my mom was militant on the "no fighting" thing. Like Marge Simpson, when I said that other kids were beating me up, she said they weren't very good friends.

Dad went along for the sake of his balls. He apologized later for that.

I grant that probably would have been the same regardless of where I went to school.

The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dymanics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the real world.

Right, like i said: I did learn about other people in school.

Other people are dicks.
2012-02-18 06:48:32 PM
1 votes:

Kazan:

homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


Really?

images.wikia.com
2012-02-18 06:48:13 PM
1 votes:

Lsherm:
Huh, we agree on something. Home schooling should not be used to create substandard students.


Neither should schools, but they do, in huge numbers.
2012-02-18 06:43:58 PM
1 votes:
RoyBatty, have you been out of your mom's basement lately?
2012-02-18 06:42:42 PM
1 votes:
sendtodave:
No Such Agency: Public schooling is sort of like vaccination. If most people do it, it generally benefits society. But if a lot of people opt out of it, things rapidly go down the shiatter for everyone.

And, unfortunately, some may get sick and die from the vaccine. But, hey, it's worth it as long as it benefits society.


Actually yes, because the number who "get sick and die" is very low, compared to the shiat-tacular situation you'd have if people had to teach their own kids and could do it any way they liked.

Sticky Hands:
at least we know that she'll grow up to give the best lapdances.

You are a terrible person.
2012-02-18 06:40:15 PM
1 votes:

sendtodave: DavidVincent: Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.

[i52.tinypic.com image 345x333]

[t3.gstatic.com image 260x194]


I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone. The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dymanics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the real world.
2012-02-18 06:33:12 PM
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.

Isn't that just a preference? Personally I only do it when it's a full sentence, bugs me otherwise.

/end slight threadjack


It's an American preference, quotes should really only include what's quoited, not extra punctuation
2012-02-18 06:32:29 PM
1 votes:

culebra: I went through the public education meat grinder (in California, no less), getting ridiculed for various reasons, picked on by teachers who were no more mature than my peers (maybe even less), and being subjected to arbitrary disciplinary procedures.

I wouldn't have it any other way, honestly. I understand what institutions do to people, what society is like, and how petulant adults can be when handed the slightest bit of authority. The key is that I didn't let it make me bitter. I found enough joy and wisdom there to make it worthwhile, and have no problem sending my son to public school. He is doing better than I because, (unlike myself), he went in with the requisite social skills.

I bear home-schoolers no ill will. I think it can be done successfully from an academic perspective, but I think it is very difficult to prepare home-schooled children for the realities of the larger society, which is of course an important element of public schooling. Perhaps the primary one. The thing you have to be mindful of with public school is that your kids are really learning, and that you are doing plenty of teaching at home instead of relying on the school for all of it.


I disagree with the bolded. I think it's easier for homeschooled kids to be prepared for the realities of the larger society because they are better able to EXPERIENCE society to a greater extent. In a school, you're shut up in a classroom with a group of people your own age. You aren't encouraged to interact with others that are either younger or older than you. School should solely be about education. Now, granted, to a certain degree education DOES prepare children for the realities of the larger society, but that's only one aspect of being a successful member of society.

The last time that I, personally, used something that I learned in 7th grade history, for example, was... well, probably 7th or 8th grade. MAYBE high school. My point is more that most of the actual things you learn in school, you forget and don't use on a day to day basis. There are *some* things, sure, that you remember and might use. But by and large the primary function of education is to train you *how* to learn.

College is another animal altogether and I'd say that college is more along the lines of preparing students for the realities of the world in general than elementary or high school is.
2012-02-18 06:30:09 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


No, it doesn't, if you know what you are doing as a parent.

I went to public schools for my entire education, but if you believe a child cannot develop social and societal skills EXCEPT in a public school setting... well, you're an example of the lack of critical thinking ability brought forth by our nation's public school system.
2012-02-18 06:29:27 PM
1 votes:

No Such Agency: Public schooling is sort of like vaccination. If most people do it, it generally benefits society. But if a lot of people opt out of it, things rapidly go down the shiatter for everyone.


And, unfortunately, some may get sick and die from the vaccine. But, hey, it's worth it as long as it benefits society.

t2.gstatic.com

Soccer is also a fun sport.
2012-02-18 06:28:49 PM
1 votes:
Don't Teach Your Children. The World Needs Republicans.
2012-02-18 06:24:48 PM
1 votes:
Its shiat like this parents that makes us keep falling behind the likes of Finland and China. We need more rigorous schooling instead of more bullshiat pandering to our delicate snowflakes sensibilities. Just learn what you feel like? Where does that ever work in the real world? These kids will get eaten alive when they have to compete for their jobs with someone better educated, less whiney, and hungrier for success from an up-and-coming (or already here) world power. You think Google or Genentech will give a damn about your kids self-directed learning style? No, they'll want to know that you are proficient in database programming or anti-body design.

I'm not arguing for a "teach to the test model" and I'm open-minded to the idea of improvement and alternate models for education, but you can be open-minded to the point of your brain falling out. How about a national curriculum with more local flexibility to teach it, coupled with higher teacher pay and better incentives to higher teachers drawn from different disciplines? Like Finland or South Korea. I know its a pipe dream, but we have to at least fight the idea of a fluffy, safe, and meaningless education - especially since its so damned important for this country.
2012-02-18 06:23:29 PM
1 votes:
2012-02-18 06:21:52 PM
1 votes:

Lsherm: RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.

That's an American rule (new window), imperialist :)


Not only that, but it's a stupid American rule. I break it whenever the fark I feel like it, because language is meant to adapt, and shouldn't we obey that important rule that says "Quotation marks should only include the part which is actually quoted"?
2012-02-18 06:18:13 PM
1 votes:

minuslars: The British prefer to place periods and commas after the quotation marks. Silly British. LEARN ENGLISH FGGTS


Tou really suound British, you also hauve to throuw a bunch of extraneous "u"s into wourds.

/still better than French, where pronunciation seems to involve throwing out every other letter and reading whatever remains
2012-02-18 06:17:37 PM
1 votes:
We were never tested, graded, or told to memorize dates, facts, or figures. ... Some days we read books, made music, painted, or drew. Other days we argued and fought over the computer. Endless hours were spent watching reruns of 'The Simpsons' on videotape

Sorry snowflake, you weren't homeschooled - you were just not sent to school by your stupid, hippy parents.
2012-02-18 06:16:05 PM
1 votes:

ansius: just let your kids play with other kids


t0.gstatic.com

These kids are playing tag.

t1.gstatic.com

These are playing hide and seek; the girl in the forefront is counting. Quick, better go hide, girls!
2012-02-18 06:14:59 PM
1 votes:

rjakobi: Most of the people I knew who were homeschooled were ultra-Christian God warriors


there is a large community of those people here. some are neighbors. they homeschool and prepare for the eventual christian revolution. they may homeschool but that doesn't mean they aren't social - its just carefully set up so they only socialize with each other. the homeschooling parents do organize do a lot of group activities for the kids.
i have a kid thats almost grade-school age, so through a neighbor i got invited to go to one of the kids outings to 'check it out'. it turns out the 'outing' i was invited to was a range day where the kids from about 7-15 were learning various marksmanship and team weapons tactics with different kinds of firearms. that and a lot of praying. the oldest two kids were talking about military service so they could go over to the mideast and learn stuff 'they could use back home' when it was time.

so no, they are learning skills, and they are learning about being social. they just aren't learning anything positive and they are learning about society. they may be being built into sociopaths devoid of empathy for others and who hate society, but they are learning about it.
2012-02-18 06:14:13 PM
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.


Only in American usage. (And, unlike for most things, American usage is retarded here.)
2012-02-18 06:12:30 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: homeschooling ... demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


My lack of trust in the education system comes from having gone through it myself. I wouldn't wish my experience on my progeny. Also, the wifey & I both have doctorates: there's about 20 years worth of university in the household, from undergrad through post-doc. I think we'd be up to the task of homeschooling a kid or two.
2012-02-18 06:12:15 PM
1 votes:

Gawdzila: Although I don't know that trust in the education system is necessarily a liberal trait.


I think that supporting teachers unions is supposed to be one.
2012-02-18 06:10:55 PM
1 votes:
Good thing being a liberal does not encompass a wide variety of values and ideas.
2012-02-18 06:10:49 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: what the fark is it with the hate for public education... i don't understand it.. my teachers were as a rule skilled educators, the the fact that you reviewed what previously covered before a number of times did annoy me - but i know what many people don't retain things as quickly as i do.


perhaps i'm spoiled by having grown up in a state with schools run generally well and with teachers who were all good..... of course now all of my best teachers have retired early because budgetary pressure.

sure there are some problems - no tolerance policy stupidity, too much money being diverted from education to other thinsg.. but those are addressable... please explain the hate?


pudding7: ..

homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


This explains why Tim Tebow is such a self-centered p rick. I mean what kinda person with any sense of compassion builds hospitals and orphanages in 3rd world countries.
2012-02-18 06:07:52 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: pudding7: ..

homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.


This. Although I don't know that trust in the education system is necessarily a liberal trait.
Clearly liberals like a good public education system, but in an instance where it is severely corrupted (by teabagger-sanitized history classes, or creationist biology, for instance), I can see them turning to homeschooling or maybe private schooling if a good one is available and not too expensive for them.
2012-02-18 06:06:50 PM
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.



The Rise of Logical Punctuation (new window)

The Rise of "Logical Punctuation".
The period outside the quotation marks is not a copy error.

By Ben Yagoda|Posted Thursday, May 12, 2011, at 10:07 AM ET

For at least two centuries, it has been standard practice in the United States to place commas and periods inside of quotation marks. This rule still holds for professionally edited prose: what you'll find in Slate, the New York Times, the Washington Post- almost any place adhering to Modern Language Association (MLA) or AP guidelines. But in copy-editor-free zones-the Web and emails, student papers, business memos-with increasing frequency, commas and periods find themselves on the outside of quotation marks, looking in. A punctuation paradigm is shifting.

Indeed, unless you associate exclusively with editors and prescriptivists, you can find copious examples of the "outside" technique-which readers of Virginia Woolf and The Guardian will recognize as the British style-no further away than your Twitter or Facebook feed. I certainly can. Conan O'Brien, for example, recently posted:

Conan's staffers' kids say the darndest things. Unfortunately, in this case "darndest" means "incriminating".

The British style also rules on message boards and bulletin boards. I scanned four random posts in Metafilter.com (about Sony Playstation's hacking problems, the death of Phoebe Snow, the French police, and cool dads) and counted nine comments with periods and commas outside, seven inside.

Why has this convention become so popular? I offer two reasons, one small and one big. The small one is a byproduct of working with computers, and writing computer code. In these endeavors, one is often instructed to "input" a string of characters, and sometimes (in the printed instructions) the characters are enclosed in quotation marks. Sticking a period or comma in front of the closing quotation marks could clearly have bad consequences. So, for example, the Chicago Manual of Style (16th edition), which otherwise endorses the American way- "This is a traditional style, in use well before the first edition of this manual (1906)"-makes an exception in the case of computer instruction, illustrated by:

name your file "appendix A, v. 10".

But the main reason is that the British way simply makes more sense. Indeed, since at least the 1960s a common designation for that style has been "logical punctuation." The best way to grasp this is to look at an example, such as what Slate commenter Dean Hamer wrote under a recent article about PBS and NPR:

ronically, given the anecdote about "Tales of the City", PBS is the ONLY widely available channel that has any serious LGBT content; e.g. documentaries such as "Ask Not" and "Out in the Silence".

"Tales of the City" and "Out in the Silence" are units-consisting of the words and the quotation marks. Insinuating a period or comma within the unit alters it in a rather underhanded manner. American style is inconsistent, moreover, because when it comes to other punctuation marks-semicolons, colons, exclamation points, question marks, dashes-we follow British/logical protocol. Dean Hamer would pass muster in any U.S. newspaper or magazine, for example, if he were to write: I am a big fan of "Tales of the City"; did anyone else see "Ask Not"?

If it seems hard or even impossible to defend the American way on the merits, that's probably because it emerged from aesthetic, not logical, considerations. According to Rosemary Feal, executive director of the MLA, it was instituted in the early days of the Republic in order "to improve the appearance of the text.

...
2012-02-18 06:06:04 PM
1 votes:
Who cares?
2012-02-18 06:05:49 PM
1 votes:

hitchking: Then punch yourself in the balls for me, ok?


I like your style.
2012-02-18 06:04:14 PM
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.


That's the American preference.

The British prefer to place periods and commas after the quotation marks. Silly British. LEARN ENGLISH FGGTS
2012-02-18 05:58:08 PM
1 votes:
I went to high school with a kid who was home schooled through 8th grade, now he's 23 and BALDING SLIGHTLY.

Let this be a lesson learned.
2012-02-18 05:57:37 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: what the fark is it with the hate for public education... i don't understand it.. my teachers were as a rule skilled educators, the the fact that you reviewed what previously covered before a number of times did annoy me - but i know what many people don't retain things as quickly as i do.


it seems to be a case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when it comes to dealing with problems in public schools. No system is perfect, but instead of trying to eliminate/correct problems, they would rather just say "fark it" and do away with the whole thing. It's also people who don't see the value in an educated populace just because they're not directly benefited monetarily.

I'm not against homeschooling, but I do think those that opt into that idea generally do so for questionable ulterior motives.
2012-02-18 05:53:46 PM
1 votes:

DavidVincent: Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.

[i52.tinypic.com image 345x333]


t3.gstatic.com
2012-02-18 05:46:34 PM
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.

Isn't that just a preference? Personally I only do it when it's a full sentence, bugs me otherwise.


Yes. Some folks only place the period within the quotes if the period was part of a quoted phrase.

Examples:

John is an "expert video-gamer". (not a quote)

Abe: I'd love to go to the dance.
Dave: Abe said he'd "love to go". (quoting, but not something that itself used a period)
Steve: Abe said he'd "love to go to the dance." (quoting something that used a period)
2012-02-18 05:44:48 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: The My Little Pony Killer: My significant other is a living disagreement of this statement.

i never said there weren't ways to compensate for that


my biggest problem with home schooling is the complete lack of regulation - they should have to demonstrate compliance to the same minimum curriculum standards that the public schools adhere to. (And private schools should be subject to those)


one doesn't have the right to inflict ignorance on their offspring.


Nope, no compensation going on. You're just talking out of your ass.
2012-02-18 05:41:49 PM
1 votes:

Lsherm: Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive-by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

Well, it shouldn't shock anyone that an American liberal believes parents should forgo what is best for their children in order to best serve "the collective".


6/10. Good effort, but next time make your post longer.
2012-02-18 05:37:31 PM
1 votes:
With society moving to a more "On Demand" topology,with iTunes, Netfilx ,news aggregator , and social media websites, the shut-ins are poised to rule the world
2012-02-18 03:14:45 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: my biggest problem with home schooling is the complete lack of regulation


Huh, we agree on something. Home schooling should not be used to create substandard students.

Most private schools have to meet state regulations to get state funds, so most do.
2012-02-18 03:03:35 PM
1 votes:

penthesilea: Normally I'd drag out decades of studies and current stats. I'd post graphs & pie charts.


oh yeah? let's see this data. i presume you're trying to claim that home schooling is superior.
2012-02-18 02:51:55 PM
1 votes:

pudding7: I'm a Liberal, but for the life of me I can't think of which of my values homeschooling would violate. Is there a newsletter for Progressives that I failed to sign up for when I got my Liberal membership card? Ideally, one that would tell me what my values should be so that I would know how violated I should feel when people homeschool their kids?


I guess there's two ways to look at it. One, homeschooling in and of itself is ideologically neutral. You can homeschool your kids in a tight, religious environment or a loose, unstructured format like the author describes and neither group of kids are really going to benefit much imo. But if you're qualified and you teach your kids based on accepted standards, I don't think it matters what your ideology is. The other way to look at it, which I guess is what the author is getting at, is that in abandoning the public schools, liberals are only making the problem worse which is antithetical to the purpose of public schools. There are plenty of examples of public schools working just fine, and if you want to see the best, so to a National Lab town where education is highly valued and kids are held to high standards. The author's point seems to be that a liberal should strive for the later as opposed to opting out.
2012-02-18 02:51:11 PM
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: My significant other is a living disagreement of this statement.


i never said there weren't ways to compensate for that


my biggest problem with home schooling is the complete lack of regulation - they should have to demonstrate compliance to the same minimum curriculum standards that the public schools adhere to. (And private schools should be subject to those)


one doesn't have the right to inflict ignorance on their offspring.
2012-02-18 02:50:15 PM
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.


That's an American rule (new window), imperialist :)
2012-02-18 02:47:44 PM
1 votes:

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.


My significant other is a living disagreement of this statement.
2012-02-18 02:43:16 PM
1 votes:

doyner: Kazan: doyner: The computers at your school didn't have a "shift" key did they?

when you cannot dispute the content, attack the delivery.

[welcometofark.jpg]


yes, because misuing that meme makes you correct and instantly the ruler of the planet.
2012-02-18 02:38:25 PM
1 votes:
t3.gstatic.com

Unless......
2012-02-18 01:58:36 PM
1 votes:

Lsherm: "the collective".


I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.
 
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