FARK.com: (6949764) Liberals shouldn't homeschool their children, because homeschooling is a mistake

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		Liberals shouldn't homeschool their children, because homeschooling is a mistake (slate.com)		550
		More: Obvious, religious fundamentalism, secular humanists, public sphere, Dana Goldstein, liberals, coordinator, mistakes

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DavidVincent		2012-02-18 06:38:13 PM

"He did extremely well at primary school and it appeared he had a bright academic future in front of him. He was also popular with other pupils and was much admired for his leadership qualities. Competition was much tougher in the larger secondary school and his reaction to not being top of the class was to stop trying. His father was furious as he had high hopes that he would follow his example and join the Austrian civil service when he left school. However, he was a stubborn child and attempts by his parents and teachers to change his attitude towards his studies were unsuccessful. He enjoyed games that involved fighting and he loved re-enacting battles from the Boer War. His favourite game was playing the role of a commando rescuing Boers from English concentration camps."

Godwinned.

SuperTramp		2012-02-18 06:38:27 PM

Arctic Phoenix I think it's easier for homeschooled kids to be prepared for the realities of the larger society because they are better able to EXPERIENCE society to a greater extent.

As in "blown away by napalm"

Mentat		2012-02-18 06:40:15 PM

sendtodave: DavidVincent: Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.

[i52.tinypic.com image 345x333]

[t3.gstatic.com image 260x194]

I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone. The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dymanics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the real world.

TheGhostofFarkPast		2012-02-18 06:40:55 PM

my brother is an ultra conservative baptist Christian and he home schools all of his kids. Mostly because his wife, who he should of never married, is a massive Christian with a family full of Rush Limbaugh listeners who told her she should do it. She refused to go to work after the first few kids, even though she has a masters in accounting, all so she could stay home and struggle even more on my brothers meager salary. Right now the kids are showing all the signs of the typical home schooler and it should be interesting to see just how smart they are when they go to test out and go to college. I have a feeling "evolution" will not get mentioned much and alternative information will be sent their way.

SuperTramp		2012-02-18 06:41:51 PM

Mentat
I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone. The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dymanics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the real world.

Agreed. I remember 1964.

RoyBatty		2012-02-18 06:41:59 PM

Mentat: sendtodave: DavidVincent: Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.

[i52.tinypic.com image 345x333]

[t3.gstatic.com image 260x194]

I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone. The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dymanics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the politics tab.

FubarBDilligaf		2012-02-18 06:42:30 PM

Forgot_my_password_again: Don't Teach Your Children. The World Needs Republicans.

Yet of those without HS diplomas, 66% voted for Obama. In fact, in the last 5 elections, the majority of the 'uneducated' voted Democrat every time. Let me guess how you voted...

No Such Agency		2012-02-18 06:42:42 PM

sendtodave:
No Such Agency: Public schooling is sort of like vaccination. If most people do it, it generally benefits society. But if a lot of people opt out of it, things rapidly go down the shiatter for everyone.

And, unfortunately, some may get sick and die from the vaccine. But, hey, it's worth it as long as it benefits society.

Actually yes, because the number who "get sick and die" is very low, compared to the shiat-tacular situation you'd have if people had to teach their own kids and could do it any way they liked.

Sticky Hands:
at least we know that she'll grow up to give the best lapdances.

You are a terrible person.

SuperTramp		2012-02-18 06:43:58 PM

RoyBatty, have you been out of your mom's basement lately?

FirstNationalBastard		2012-02-18 06:44:33 PM

No Such Agency: sendtodave:

[t1.gstatic.com image 275x183]

Wow, she really blossomed later, didn't she?

[i.imgur.com image 275x275]

However, in the end, Time was not kind to her...

culebra		2012-02-18 06:44:51 PM

Arctic Phoenix: culebra: I went through the public education meat grinder (in California, no less), getting ridiculed for various reasons, picked on by teachers who were no more mature than my peers (maybe even less), and being subjected to arbitrary disciplinary procedures.

I wouldn't have it any other way, honestly. I understand what institutions do to people, what society is like, and how petulant adults can be when handed the slightest bit of authority. The key is that I didn't let it make me bitter. I found enough joy and wisdom there to make it worthwhile, and have no problem sending my son to public school. He is doing better than I because, (unlike myself), he went in with the requisite social skills.

I bear home-schoolers no ill will. I think it can be done successfully from an academic perspective, but I think it is very difficult to prepare home-schooled children for the realities of the larger society, which is of course an important element of public schooling. Perhaps the primary one. The thing you have to be mindful of with public school is that your kids are really learning, and that you are doing plenty of teaching at home instead of relying on the school for all of it.

I disagree with the bolded. I think it's easier for homeschooled kids to be prepared for the realities of the larger society because they are better able to EXPERIENCE society to a greater extent. In a school, you're shut up in a classroom with a group of people your own age. You aren't encouraged to interact with others that are either younger or older than you. School should solely be about education. Now, granted, to a certain degree education DOES prepare children for the realities of the larger society, but that's only one aspect of being a successful member of society.

The last time that I, personally, used something that I learned in 7th grade history, for example, was... well, probably 7th or 8th grade. MAYBE high school. My point is more that most of the actual things you learn ...

In an ideal setting I can understand how home-schooling would prepare a person for society at large, but it seems to be the exception to the rule. Society is institutions, hierarchies, peer groups and power struggles. How does home-schooling prepare people to deal with these realities when it often actively avoids dealing with them?

As for college, it does prepare us for adult life in a lot of unique ways. However, the primary processes of socialization are already ingrained by grade 3, and are broadened and galvanized through secondary education. These experiences are difficult to replicate at home, though it is possible. It's why home-schooled kids can have a lot of trouble in college. The groundwork has been laid in a completely different way for these people (not a bad thing) and yet they are trying to prepare to compete in a world where the norm is public education. I don't envy them, though they may be incredibly bright.

Jixa		2012-02-18 06:44:54 PM

To repeat and agree with what DarthBart said:
plinkplunk.files.wordpress.com

MrEricSir		2012-02-18 06:45:13 PM

Home schooling is great if you want to raise your children to have severe social problems.

CUZN_Ovoids		2012-02-18 06:47:12 PM

Remember when home schooled kids were that way because their parents lived in some way out settlement in the Yukon. Books had to be air dropped to them, or they received some of their lessons via satellite TV?
Last time I talked to a home-schooled kid at a church function, here's the conversation at a picnic table:
Me: Hey kid, how's it going?
Kid: Let me tell you why the big bang didn't really happen...
Me: Hold on a second there kid, you are like eight or nine right?
Kid: ..eight and a half..
Me: ..and you are able refute fifty years of physics, mathematics, and other related scientific findings?
Kid: ...physi...
Me: Hey Kid, want to know how jets fly?
Kid: Yeah, sure!
Me: Because of internal combustion jet engines, aerodynamics, hydraulics, chemically engineered fuels and materials, advanced computer systems, years of pilot training, and dozens other really cool things, but you know what?
Kid: What?
Me: Jesus nor the bible tells us anything about jets, yet there is one flying right over us, want to know why?
Kid: Huh?
Me: Because Jesus wasn't here to teach us science.

DavidVincent		2012-02-18 06:47:20 PM

Public school is fine if you are in a "nice" area. The school will be OK and its is a lot less work for the parents. If you don't have the means to live by a "nice" school, consider home schooling.

This is a pretty funny parody of today's typical young parent.

quickdraw		2012-02-18 06:47:44 PM

Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion.

Only if you are too short-sighted to provide other community experiences for your child. My daughter belonged to girl scouts and a karate dojo. My son attended a club for computer geeks. Both kids helped out with various local non-profits and community events on a regular basis. Sometimes my kids were home schooled and sometimes they weren't but it was always these out-of-school experiences which gave them the best understanding of other people.

Unfortunately public school is often so rigid that all you learn is how to relate to people in that setting. Sit at your desk, don't question authority and be sure to finish those worksheets! If you want to prepare your child to be a cubicle drone public schooling is ideal. If you want them to learn critical thinking and collaboration in a peer environment then you have to get them out of their tidy rows of desks and into the real world.

orbister		2012-02-18 06:48:13 PM

Lsherm:
Huh, we agree on something. Home schooling should not be used to create substandard students.

Neither should schools, but they do, in huge numbers.

SuperTramp		2012-02-18 06:48:18 PM

MrEricSir
Home schooling is great if you want to raise your children to have severe social problems.

Like referring to a woman's breasts as "dirty pillows."

/so vote for Santorum

RoyBatty		2012-02-18 06:48:28 PM

SuperTramp: RoyBatty, have you been out of your mom's basement lately?

Nice and warm in here.

warm in here.

here.

tomWright		2012-02-18 06:48:32 PM

Kazan:

homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.

Really?

images.wikia.com

Coelacanth		2012-02-18 06:48:37 PM

Mentat: I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone. The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dynamics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the real world.

I'd like to add that you have to hit bullies hard enough to make them fall down and bleed if your hands aren't tied behind your back.

sendtodave		2012-02-18 06:48:54 PM

Mentat: I learned a lot from being bullied. The first lesson I learned was hit the motherfarkers back and they will leave you alone.

Yeah, my mom was militant on the "no fighting" thing. Like Marge Simpson, when I said that other kids were beating me up, she said they weren't very good friends.

Dad went along for the sake of his balls. He apologized later for that.

I grant that probably would have been the same regardless of where I went to school.

The second lesson I learned was that bullying doesn't stop when you become an adult, it just becomes more subtle. Being around other kids, even douchebags, teaches you valuable lessons about group dymanics and social interactions that will serve you well when you go out into the real world.

Right, like i said: I did learn about other people in school.

Other people are dicks.

orbister		2012-02-18 06:50:44 PM

Popo Bawa: I live next door the to 30 year old product of homeschooling by an uber liberal.
What a mess. ....
IMO, homeschooling does nothing but create social retards.

So on the basis of one homeschooled person you know with poor social skills, you've decided that all homeschooling has this result. Did you learn your logical thinking skills at school?

culebra		2012-02-18 06:51:53 PM

orbister: Lsherm:
Huh, we agree on something. Home schooling should not be used to create substandard students.

Neither should schools, but they do, in huge numbers.

Is this strictly the fault of the institution, or do the parents who rely overly on the institution bear part of the blame?

Chimpasaurus		2012-02-18 06:52:15 PM

I was never a believer in homeschooling, and thought they were all weird, unsocialized people. But now that I'm older and see that America has gone to hell, I'm thinking homeschooling is the only option. Luckily, I grew up in a district with a pretty good education system, but even the "good" schools have seriously lowered their standards. In just my 3 yrs, the advanced program went from accepting 10 people to accepting everyone and marketing it as an enrichment program for all.

But the education isn't even the worst of it. Why would I want to send my kid to a school with metal detectors, security guards crawling up your arse when you want to go to the bathroom, and food police telling me what I should feed my kid? Lately I've been seeing stories about kids getting arrested for playing on the playground and parents having their kids taken away because it was 5 min late to school. It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.

orbister		2012-02-18 06:53:34 PM

ansius: Jesus F Christ on a crutch, can't you dim wits just let your kids play with other kids, explore the world, find things out for themselves without you being so concerned that they're learning things differently to what you learned, differently to how you learned it.

The advantages of homeschooling in a nutshell. Thank you.

jjorsett		2012-02-18 06:53:44 PM

Kazan: perhaps i'm spoiled by having grown up in a state with schools run generally well and with teachers who were all good..... of course now all of my best teachers have retired early because budgetary pressure.

Around here (California) the best teachers don't get to retire due to budgetary pressures, they get laid off. Union seniority rules assure that the young, non-burntout, enthusiastic ones are the first to go, while the doddering timeservers who were rotated into office work a decade ago get reluctantly pulled back into classrooms to replace them. And why are there budgetary pressures you ask (you did ask, didn't you)? Because schools have turned into bloated, sclerotic apparatchikocracies, whose raison d'être is pulling in the maximum amount of money to grow their size and influence, and provide increasingly generous benefits for those who crew them.

Sticky Hands		2012-02-18 06:54:09 PM

Chimpasaurus: Why would I want to send my kid to a school with metal detectors, security guards crawling up your arse when you want to go to the bathroom, and food police telling me what I should feed my kid?

...because you need to get them ready for the real world!

although I suppose you could just fly them around the country a lot.

Gawdzila		2012-02-18 06:54:16 PM

sendtodave: Gawdzila: Although I don't know that trust in the education system is necessarily a liberal trait.

I think that supporting teachers unions is supposed to be one.

I dunno.
It usually is, but I don't think liberals have to be married to any particular mechanism within the current public schooling structure, only the basic idea of wanting to provide everyone a good, free education that has certain qualities (like being free of religious influence). I have a few reservations about teachers unions myself, and I consider myself to be far left. I consider liberalism to be much more about the broad ideas behind what functions the private sector and government should have in society, and about economic equity versus absolute efficiency and fiscal freedom, than about the specific ways we've gone about enacting those ideas.

quickdraw		2012-02-18 06:55:42 PM

Chimpasaurus: It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.

I understand your frustration but it's not that bad yet. You can find good public schools but you may have to move. Look for small college towns with a decent income per capita.

sendtodave		2012-02-18 06:56:31 PM

CUZN_Ovoids: Last time I talked to a home-schooled kid at a church function, here's the conversation at a picnic table

That kid's parents would fill their head with garbage no matter what. If sending kids to public school is seen as a solution to parents teaching their kids stupid shiat, well, why stop there?

Why not just remove the kids from their parents home and be done with it? For their own good, of course.

orbister		2012-02-18 06:57:10 PM

culebra:
I bear home-schoolers no ill will. I think it can be done successfully from an academic perspective, but I think it is very difficult to prepare home-schooled children for the realities of the larger society, which is of course an important element of public schooling.

Yes indeed, because in the larger society you spend all your time in a group of 20 - 30 people with birthdays within a year of yours. Pity the poor homeschooled kids who instead have to mix and interact with people of all ages in a wide variety of settings.

No Such Agency		2012-02-18 06:57:27 PM

quickdraw:
If you want to prepare your child to be a cubicle drone public schooling is ideal. If you want them to learn critical thinking and collaboration in a peer environment then you have to get them out of their tidy rows of desks and into the real world.

WTF? I work with a lot of bright and talented scientists, almost all of whom attended public schools. Imagine that. Some are brighter than others, some are assholes, but none are "cubicle drones". Of course I live in Canada, land of a functional social compact.

It's complete bullshiat that the people who whine the loudest about how bad public schools are have the least interest in fixing them, but instead want to abandon ship because hey, THEY can spare the time and $$ to homeschool.

sendtodave		2012-02-18 06:58:07 PM

Chimpasaurus: Why would I want to send my kid to a school with metal detectors, security guards crawling up your arse when you want to go to the bathroom, and food police telling me what I should feed my kid?

Because, as everyone keeps saying, public school prepares them for the real world!

Counter_Intelligent		2012-02-18 06:58:08 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Because there is no other way for your kids to meet people unless it is in a government-approved setting....

If you think kids interact with others at school under the auspices of the government, you're a f*cking idiot.

9beers		2012-02-18 06:58:40 PM

If you're that paranoid about your kids being out there in the big, cruel world, instead of being safe at home under your watch, you shouldn't have kids in the first farking place.

rebelyell2006		2012-02-18 06:59:10 PM

Private non-parochial schools are options as well -- for example I went to a decent prep school instead of attending the local high school.

RoyBatty		2012-02-18 06:59:15 PM

Chimpasaurus: I was never a believer in homeschooling, and thought they were all weird, unsocialized people. But now that I'm older and see that America has gone to hell, I'm thinking homeschooling is the only option. Luckily, I grew up in a district with a pretty good education system, but even the "good" schools have seriously lowered their standards. In just my 3 yrs, the advanced program went from accepting 10 people to accepting everyone and marketing it as an enrichment program for all.

But the education isn't even the worst of it. Why would I want to send my kid to a school with metal detectors, security guards crawling up your arse when you want to go to the bathroom, and food police telling me what I should feed my kid? Lately I've been seeing stories about kids getting arrested for playing on the playground and parents having their kids taken away because it was 5 min late to school. It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.

I wasn't homeschooled, but I took a many of my classes at the JCC, and that was a tons better experience because the students at a JCC want to be there.

I've met great kids that have been publically schooled and homeschooled, and total douchebags and social retards from both.

I went to college and found that the courses at the JCC had prepared me for college, and I placed out, and my high school courses were jokes.

I think parents have to decide for themselves based on their kids, their resources, and their local conditions. I wouldn't home school my kids because I would be terrible at it. (Amongst other reasons.)

I think the worse thing to do is as Dana suggests and let progressive bullying force you to do something to your kids because you want to feel good. I don't see how that is progressive at all.

culebra		2012-02-18 06:59:54 PM

Chimpasaurus: America has gone to hell

I can just tell the proceeding is going to be extremely rational.

Chimpasaurus: It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.

My neighborhood is incredibly safe, and so is my son's school.

Chimpasaurus: Lately I've been seeing stories about kids getting arrested for playing on the playground and parents having their kids taken away because it was 5 min late to school. It is no longer safe to send your kid to school anywhere.

So you're concerned about America "going to hell" but you'll go ahead and promote media sensationalism regarding exceptions to the rule?

Submitted First With a Better Headline		2012-02-18 07:00:51 PM

Arctic Phoenix: /Slash and let slash!

Well, okay...

wearemoviegeeks.com

I think that Ryu is asexual, but Ken definitely seems to have unhealthy fixation on Ryu, whom he sent all of his formidable, hormonal years with alone in a cabinet, wrestling and sweating.

Half Right		2012-02-18 07:01:07 PM

DarthBart: Kazan: homeschooling isolates your kids from experiences that would help them understand other people and develop a sense of community and compassion. it also demonstrates a lack of trust in the education system.

...And I find it funny & ironic that most of the people I've seen & heard immediately discount homeschooling don't even have children.

Well said--I remember homeschooling field trips with 40+ kids attending myself. And I have a suspicion that Kazan is trolling anyway.

This article talks about extreme "progressive" notions of homeschooling. Many other negative stereotypes of homeschooling are due to the extreme conservative and religious types. Both are extremes, and there are large numbers of "normal", rational people homeschooling their kids in the meaty center of the bell curve because the educational system in this country is patently broken.

The socialization aspect is also suspect--if we went back to a one-room-schoolhouse type system where kids of varying ages learned from each other and could socialize and become friends with people at their own stage of development (which doesn't always have much to do with absolute age), then school system socialization might be a positive. But it's not even close to being that way.

I find myself occupying a middle ground in this debate--I was homeschooled until I started public school in 4th grade, and what I learned in those young years--not just factual information, but practical knowledge and a general love of learning--carried me not only through high school but through university and into the working world. I think some combination is important, whether it's attending public school for high school only, or joining local groups like Boy/Girl Scouts or town sports teams.

/On a related note, I highly recommend anyone concerned about the state of education in this country to read John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education (new window).

Julie Cochrane		2012-02-18 07:01:12 PM

RexTalionis: Lsherm: "the collective".

I just want to note, for your future reference, that periods and commas should be placed within the quotation marks.

Actually, that would depend on whether the person posting is using American English or British English. British English places periods and commas that do not belong to the quoted material outside of the quotation marks.

I have to admire our British cousins on this one--their rule makes more sense.

Submitted First With a Better Headline		2012-02-18 07:02:26 PM

Submitted First With a Better Headline: ~~sent~~ spent

/crap

culebra		2012-02-18 07:03:03 PM

orbister: culebra:
I bear home-schoolers no ill will. I think it can be done successfully from an academic perspective, but I think it is very difficult to prepare home-schooled children for the realities of the larger society, which is of course an important element of public schooling.

Yes indeed, because in the larger society you spend all your time in a group of 20 - 30 people with birthdays within a year of yours. Pity the poor homeschooled kids who instead have to mix and interact with people of all ages in a wide variety of settings.

I already addressed this previously. For someone who just (rightfully) accused another poster of having bad debating skills you sure are fond of pummeling strawmen.

My child gets the best of both of these worlds, but he's also being raised to not abuse concepts like pity and sarcasm. It's a shame you didn't learn the same.

SuperTramp		2012-02-18 07:03:12 PM

culebraSo you're concerned about America "going to hell" but you'll go ahead and promote media sensationalism regarding exceptions to the rule?

My bet is that Chimpasaurus spent most of the day alone, with the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

Nancy Grace's Billowing Face Vents		2012-02-18 07:04:25 PM

You know else butchered quotes...

Bluejacket		2012-02-18 07:04:48 PM

I happen to know quite a few kids that were home schooled. They're parent's were convinced that the public schools were dens of sin and drugs. Of those kids, 3 are addicted to pain killers, one killed himself and the two girls are well adjusted young ladies. Ya take your chances and live with the results no matter where your kids go to school. I have to admit though that if I felt that I could prevent my children's exposure to gangs and all violence in poor inner city environments by home schooling I would be tempted to home school myself.

culebra		2012-02-18 07:05:53 PM

SuperTramp: culebraSo you're concerned about America "going to hell" but you'll go ahead and promote media sensationalism regarding exceptions to the rule?

My bet is that Chimpasaurus spent most of the day alone, with the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

In the Good Old Days they masturbated to the Sears catalog and it was good enough for them! America has really gone down the shiatter since the Good Old Days!

Wizard Drongo		2012-02-18 07:06:20 PM

If I were to have kids, and money were no option, I think I'd probably opt to send them to state school for the primary years (i.e. till age 11). After that, it becomes more about passing tests than learning. In addition, the worst of the bullying occurs in high-schools, no doubt.

This way, they get all the socialisation skills you can get in school from the primary schools, then instead of rote-learning what they need to pass tests, they can be home-schooled and get into some serious learning, take the exams they need to take when they're ready (be that earlier or later than state school. Probably earlier, there is a lot of babying in schools), then progress onwards at their own pace.

The only downside of course is that they lose out on some of the equipment/facilities of a modern school. Usually made-up for by the constant one-to-one tuition. I'd probably join one of these homeschool-collectives, so you can pool resources, give them some socialisation etc.

That said, homeschooling isn't all that big in Scotland, and our high-schools are less test-oriented than in the US. I'd probably just move further north to one of the small highland/island villages. Local school would probably have

Macular Degenerate		2012-02-18 07:09:36 PM

I work in public education at the college level. I will tell you that the raw materials that I get in my work are laughably bad. It's stunning how poorly prepared students are coming to college. 60% need remedial math just to start college level work - that's a national average. I am a remedial math tutor and most of the students I tutor for the MAT09 course, our lowest most basic remedial math course, struggle with 6th grade math issues - like dividing decimals and adding fractions.

And every day it seems I read an article or I'm told a story about some pathologically draconian rule or authoritarian scheme run by this or that public school, or how some teacher is diddling their students. If some woman is ever unfortunate enough to allow me to sire a child, I can guarantee you one thing - that child will not attend a standard public school. Maybe a charter school, maybe a public exam school, but if my only option is to send the kid to the local elementary/high school, I'll keep him or her home or join a homeschool collective myself. Yes, it's that bad.

All this aside, I reject the author's position that home schooling is regressive. She's decrying diversity yet denying someone their right to educate their children the way they see fit. The government may be the only institution with the resources to pull together a quality school, but by what I'm seeing, it's clearly not working. If I work hard and educate myself and want to give my kids the best advantage, that's about as progressive as it comes

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