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(Wheels.ca)   Can Subaru come up with a "muscle car"? Judge for yourself   (wheels.ca) divider line 102
    More: Interesting, Subaru, Canadian International AutoShow, Renaissance, tuners, coupe, road course, back end, muffler  
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9504 clicks; posted to Business » on 18 Feb 2012 at 8:37 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-18 06:24:51 PM

EJ25T: As far as who's going to buy the BRZ/FT, I see it doing very well, sales-wise. Import fanboys have been waiting for a new Trueno for decades, and it's not because they were blistering fast. It's because they were just really fun to drive.


I hope you're right, but I'm just not so sure. The 240SX was a good car and had a strong following, but not enough to keep it on the market. This seems like an even better package, but I worry that the market will be similarly limited.

Finding a light, nimble, RWD manual transmission coupe has been kind of hard lately. This vehicle definitely fills a void in the market. It will also be one of the easiest cars to bolt an aftermarket turbo kit onto. I'm sure there will be an STI version, but I'm not sure I'll wait that long.

I question how easy it is to put a turbo on this - I haven't heard much about Toyota's D-4S injection system, but it doesn't seem friendly for modifications like this. Also, the 12.5:1 compression ratio this is coming with is going to be a PITA unless someone is looking to change heads and/or put in new pistons. Hopefully a factory turbo will be coming sooner rather than later.

I certainly hope I'm wrong in my pessimism. This is my type of car, but if I'm not even considering buying one at any point in the next several years.
 
2012-02-18 06:49:00 PM

jaytkay: TFA ...a [Japanese] compact, modestly powered, rear-drive 2+2 coupe with only one mission: to provide enthusiasts with the elemental experience of driving a lightweight, balanced sports car...

1971 called and said Hell Yeah!
[cache.jalopnik.com image 640x480]


If that is yours, I want to buy you a steak and a beer, you drive.
 
2012-02-18 06:54:26 PM

eKonk: EJ25T: As far as who's going to buy the BRZ/FT, I see it doing very well, sales-wise. Import fanboys have been waiting for a new Trueno for decades, and it's not because they were blistering fast. It's because they were just really fun to drive.

I hope you're right, but I'm just not so sure. The 240SX was a good car and had a strong following, but not enough to keep it on the market. This seems like an even better package, but I worry that the market will be similarly limited.

I understand your perspective. Although you have to keep in mind that for most of the 240's lifetime, it was overshadowed by the 300ZX. Neither Toyota nor Subaru really has anything close to the BRZ/FT on the market (maybe the Lexus IS, but that's really another price range).

Finding a light, nimble, RWD manual transmission coupe has been kind of hard lately. This vehicle definitely fills a void in the market. It will also be one of the easiest cars to bolt an aftermarket turbo kit onto. I'm sure there will be an STI version, but I'm not sure I'll wait that long.

I question how easy it is to put a turbo on this - I haven't heard much about Toyota's D-4S injection system, but it doesn't seem friendly for modifications like this. Also, the 12.5:1 compression ratio this is coming with is going to be a PITA unless someone is looking to change heads and/or put in new pistons. Hopefully a factory turbo will be coming sooner rather than later.

DI engines have proven to be really good at quenching knock, and I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but 6lbs of boost doesn't seem like it's out of the realm of reality. Granted, it won't impress WRX/Evo owners running 22lbs out of an FP green, but that's a totally different game. Also, I've heard rumors of a TRD supercharger for the FT. Who knows, FI may not be the way to go with these... I had lots of fun creating more N/A power out of my old Acura ITR clone. More compression FTW!!!

I certainly hope I'm wrong in my pessimism. This is my type of car, but if I'm not even considering buying one at any point in the next several years.

 
2012-02-18 07:07:29 PM

s2s2s2: If that [240Z] is yours, I want to buy you a steak and a beer, you drive.


No, I wish, just looking at it makes me smile, imagining I'm driving PCH from LA to San Francisco
 
2012-02-18 07:12:15 PM
Why would Subaru want to make a muscle car anyhow? I didn't know that lesbians would go for such a vehicle...
 
2012-02-18 07:42:43 PM

eKonk: EJ25T: As far as who's going to buy the BRZ/FT, I see it doing very well, sales-wise. Import fanboys have been waiting for a new Trueno for decades, and it's not because they were blistering fast. It's because they were just really fun to drive.

I hope you're right, but I'm just not so sure. The 240SX was a good car and had a strong following, but not enough to keep it on the market. This seems like an even better package, but I worry that the market will be similarly limited.

Finding a light, nimble, RWD manual transmission coupe has been kind of hard lately. This vehicle definitely fills a void in the market. It will also be one of the easiest cars to bolt an aftermarket turbo kit onto. I'm sure there will be an STI version, but I'm not sure I'll wait that long.

I question how easy it is to put a turbo on this - I haven't heard much about Toyota's D-4S injection system, but it doesn't seem friendly for modifications like this. Also, the 12.5:1 compression ratio this is coming with is going to be a PITA unless someone is looking to change heads and/or put in new pistons. Hopefully a factory turbo will be coming sooner rather than later.

I certainly hope I'm wrong in my pessimism. This is my type of car, but if I'm not even considering buying one at any point in the next several years.


same issues with the NA Subaru boxer engines. They are not that easy to bolt a turbo on to and you're probably better off just buying the turbo model
 
2012-02-18 08:07:39 PM

Drakuun: fatalvenom: The Volvette is way more cool than that shiatbox (new window)

...not impressed

[i82.photobucket.com image 320x214]


Want.

/Subie, just keep doing what you do best, and that isn't muscle cars.
// WRX wagon owner
 
2012-02-18 08:33:21 PM
Heist

Granted, Subaru is most often associated with college professors from Vermont and graying hippies (those groups probably have a lot of overlap), but they certainly seem more capable of producing a muscle car than VW.


...and "Alternative Lifestyles." (new window)
 
2012-02-18 10:17:11 PM
liverpool.theoffside.com

I was looking forward to the new 86/BRZ, but it looks like they farked the dog on this one.

Way too underpowered, no turbo option, and no awd version either.

Extra fail for the Toyota version being branded as a Scion; its as if they don't want people to buy it.


Give me a turbo trim and I might give the Subaru version a test drive. Otherwise it is basically just a RWD Corolla.
 
2012-02-18 10:27:29 PM
All I know is if I'm driving through snow I'd like to borrow or rent a Subaru because they farking own that shiat. Best AWD/4WD I've ever tried. I don't do off road, maybe a Jeep is better there, but Jeeps usually farking suck in the snow.
 
zez
2012-02-18 10:57:47 PM

Bacontastesgood: All I know is if I'm driving through snow I'd like to borrow or rent a Subaru because they farking own that shiat. Best AWD/4WD I've ever tried. I don't do off road, maybe a Jeep is better there, but Jeeps usually farking suck in the snow.


We don't get too much snow where I live (Missouri) but since we have on street parking it's nice to know you can get out when you need to (without having to shovel). My wife used to have a Cherokee until it died and then bought a forester and I've been driving subarus for the last 20 years.

For regular snow the low engine and AWD (especially with my manual) of the Subaru beats the Jeep hands down. The jeep was basically too powerful which caused all sorts of other problems.
 
2012-02-18 11:03:56 PM

Mr. Eugenides: 400 pound/feet of torque


Torque is not measured in pounds/feet
 
2012-02-18 11:04:48 PM

Bacontastesgood: All I know is if I'm driving through snow I'd like to borrow or rent a Subaru because they farking own that shiat. Best AWD/4WD I've ever tried. I don't do off road, maybe a Jeep is better there, but Jeeps usually farking suck in the snow.


What was the last haldex system you drove in the snow? Land Rover Freelander? Volvo anything? Maybe a Passat 4 motion?

If the list is none, how do you know the Subaru performs better?

I've owned both, and in my opinion, haldex is just an easier and more effective system.
 
zez
2012-02-18 11:21:04 PM

rohar: Bacontastesgood: All I know is if I'm driving through snow I'd like to borrow or rent a Subaru because they farking own that shiat. Best AWD/4WD I've ever tried. I don't do off road, maybe a Jeep is better there, but Jeeps usually farking suck in the snow.

What was the last haldex system you drove in the snow? Land Rover Freelander? Volvo anything? Maybe a Passat 4 motion?

If the list is none, how do you know the Subaru performs better?

I've owned both, and in my opinion, haldex is just an easier and more effective system.


I'm pretty sure my 1997 impreza outback sport 5 speed is locked in with equal power to all 4 wheels all the time. I love it! It's much nicer than my wife's new automatic forester which to me feels mostly like a front wheel drive car.
 
kab
2012-02-18 11:39:26 PM
Ok, first off, the author is a fool for putting the word "musclecar" in this article, but he probably knows that.

The new Subaru / Toyota is a car that I REALLY want to like. Being the owner of a still-ticking but aging 5th gen Honda Prelude, this seems like it should be the perfect sequel. Similar weight, similar HP, and RWD, which is the one big thing that my car is sorely lacking. And since Honda made the decision to become a 100% appliance car company after dropping the absurdly overpriced S2k, well.. it's slim pickings.

The problem is the price... estimates are anywhere from 25k (barely reasonable) to 30k (GTFO). The idea you're supposedly selling.. a stripped down, somewhat "enthusiast" car, should also have a price tag that actually reflects the approach. For example, why is navigation standard in this car?

They simply can't pull off 30k for this. For less than 2 grand more, I can get in a base model 370z, which will kick the shiat out of this car all day long (aside from having an already established aftermarket)

Or that for a grand LESS, I can get in a Ford Mustang GT (despite it being about 300lbs too heavy).

Initial reviews are polite, just like they always are. You'll have to wait for shootouts to see actual nitpicks of this vehicle come to light.

I'm hoping to become impressed with this car, but it's just not happening yet.
 
2012-02-18 11:54:52 PM

svenge: Why would Subaru want to make a muscle car anyhow? I didn't know that lesbians would go for such a vehicle...


Why not? They already have the mullets.
 
2012-02-19 12:11:41 AM

To achieve a low centre of gravity, the car uses a version of Subaru's low-profile naturally-aspirated 2.0L flat-four, here fitted with direct injection technologythat helps it make 200 hp at 7000 r.p.m. and 151 lb.-ft. at 6600 r.p.m.

Think of this pair as the anti-Camaro ZL1 - affordable (about $30,000), fuel efficient and capable of delivering their driving thrills within the bounds of legality.

No, but Subaru is welcome to try again by making a V6 powered car at the $20k level and a V8 version at the $25-30k level. Until then, they can shove all their hot air from their turbocharger up their rear for misnaming a tuner car.

The only "muscle car" Subaru has ever made was the SVX, and they didnt know just how muscular a V6 can be when it eats the lower half of the drivetrain.

If it follows the Detroit formula of providing affordable power to the masses, has >5 cylinders, has an 8-cylinder option, and derives most of its power from the block(as opposed to Subaru's turbo-heavy engines), that's muscle for all I care.

/Subaru, the fine manufacturer of turbochargers
//that come preattached to cars that only granola-eaters & tuners can love
 
2012-02-19 12:15:56 AM

PanicMan: Why would they want to? They've already got a car for everybody.


How about a RWD V8 car that isn't part of a luxury tier, but is accessible to the masses in a non-depreciated form?
 
2012-02-19 12:39:20 AM

zez: Bacontastesgood: All I know is if I'm driving through snow I'd like to borrow or rent a Subaru because they farking own that shiat. Best AWD/4WD I've ever tried. I don't do off road, maybe a Jeep is better there, but Jeeps usually farking suck in the snow.

We don't get too much snow where I live (Missouri) but since we have on street parking it's nice to know you can get out when you need to (without having to shovel). My wife used to have a Cherokee until it died and then bought a forester and I've been driving subarus for the last 20 years.

For regular snow the low engine and AWD (especially with my manual) of the Subaru beats the Jeep hands down. The jeep was basically too powerful which caused all sorts of other problems.


I don't know, my wife drove my Cherokee Classic for a couple of years before we replaced it with an Impreza wagon. All was great until we got our first decent snow. She hit the wall at the end of our driveway left by the town snowplow guy, just like she'd done dozens of times in my Jeep, and promptly got hung up and had to shovel out. Lame :-) I wish I'd been home for that honestly, but yeah, those Suby commercials where they show the wagon busting through 5' of snow, yeah those are complete crap.
 
2012-02-19 02:32:28 AM

Goodfella: Give me a turbo trim and I might give the Subaru version a test drive. Otherwise it is basically just a RWD Corolla.


Nope, because it's getting its power from the Subaru boxer engine, not whatever Toyota is putting into Corollas these days. Their flat 4 is a hell of an engine (it's markedly similar to the engine Porsche used for years).
 
2012-02-19 02:58:54 AM
Methinks we should define the term 'muscle car' for this conversation...

My definition has always been pretty much, 'from the factory, sans luxury, rear wheel drive, with upgrades power/engine." In other words, if it comes with a V4, V6, and a V8 and you have the V6 then you don't have a muscle car. If it has A/C, you don't have a muscle car. If you have power windows, you don't have a muscle car.

It is pretty strict so I should probably have some leeway in there to include today's automobiles. I think you can still custom order a few Corvettes and there was an R/T (I think it was called) stripped Viper that also qualified back in like '96 or so. Hmm... I should look into that but I just lack the initiative.

My only antique today is just my Brick and it's nothing special (to the eye) other than fully restored and as completely original as you can expect.

And, for the record, they have a minivan that I understand (factory even, from Honda) that would eat a stock muscle car from the Detroit iron era for breakfast. Technological breakthroughs in a variety of areas has pretty much ensured that the Accord the missus drives can kick your Duster's ass in every performance metric that matters in the real world. It surely doesn't win where looks are considered though.

I don't believe the historic muscle car is, today, all that special for anything other than the historical value or aesthetic value. They were beautiful. They were screaming raped Jesus fast for their time. They are great wax collectors and trailer queens at the shows today even. But, give me a nice new(er) 911 or 944, perhaps a decent Lexus, or even a nice Jag and I'll have all the fun of the old muscle car and I'll even be able to steer around a corner at a reasonable speed.
 
2012-02-19 06:51:44 AM

zez: Bacontastesgood:

For regular snow the low engine and AWD (especially with my manual) of the Subaru beats the Jeep hands down. The jeep was basically too powerful which caused all sorts of other problems.


if power was the problem, did you ever try using 4 wheel low and/or leaving the transmission in 1st gear?

/really surprised at the number of people that don't know this
 
2012-02-19 08:36:00 AM
It's not going to win any machismo contests, but an old front-wheel-drive mini-van with 4 snow tires makes a great second vehicle for the snow and salt season..

They don't hold their value like SUVs, soccer moms don't want them more than a few years old, so they can be picked up for a song, parts, and mechanics that can work on them, are as common as dust..
 
2012-02-19 10:37:01 AM

sethstorm: How about a RWD V8 car that isn't part of a luxury tier, but is accessible to the masses in a non-depreciated form?


I believe the word you're looking for there is "truck".

/WTF is it with RWD? I don't like pulling my car out of a ditch
//I know, I know, learn to drive, moran
 
2012-02-19 10:47:48 AM
There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..

Although front wheel drive cars have gotten awfully good, so good the vast majority of drivers would hardly notice the difference.

//I drive two FWD cars, my cars are appliances, nothing more nothing less...
 
2012-02-19 10:57:04 AM

EJ25T: Awesome. What I like even more are the STI Foresters.


=)

i82.photobucket.com
 
2012-02-19 11:08:21 AM

dforkus: There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..


The results from BTC over the years seems to disprove your point. With similar HP cars it's a wash.

There's another reason the cars you mentioned are all rear drive. Packaging. It's a bit of a trick to stuff a 500hp motor, the transmission AND the differential all in the engine bay of a car that doesn't look like shiat.
 
2012-02-19 11:19:54 AM

rohar: dforkus: There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..

The results from BTC over the years seems to disprove your point. With similar HP cars it's a wash.

There's another reason the cars you mentioned are all rear drive. Packaging. It's a bit of a trick to stuff a 500hp motor, the transmission AND the differential all in the engine bay of a car that doesn't look like shiat.


The results of BTC racing neither prove nor disprove the point. Look at the top 10 production cars in slalom performance; 9 RWDs and one AWD, just sayin...
 
zez
2012-02-19 11:40:06 AM

dumbobruni: zez: Bacontastesgood:

For regular snow the low engine and AWD (especially with my manual) of the Subaru beats the Jeep hands down. The jeep was basically too powerful which caused all sorts of other problems.

if power was the problem, did you ever try using 4 wheel low and/or leaving the transmission in 1st gear?

/really surprised at the number of people that don't know this


The real problem is that my wife has a leadfood
 
2012-02-19 11:42:54 AM

dforkus: rohar: dforkus: There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..

The results from BTC over the years seems to disprove your point. With similar HP cars it's a wash.

There's another reason the cars you mentioned are all rear drive. Packaging. It's a bit of a trick to stuff a 500hp motor, the transmission AND the differential all in the engine bay of a car that doesn't look like shiat.

The results of BTC racing neither prove nor disprove the point. Look at the top 10 production cars in slalom performance; 9 RWDs and one AWD, just sayin...


That's an interesting artifact of the test itself. The test is limited AND has no sanction. You put a boxster S and a 911 RS on a track rather than a slalom test and the variance is MUCH larger than .1%. It's an interesting data point, but speaks very little about the actual performance of the vehicle.

Here's the thing, FWD cars have a disadvantage at low end accelloration. As the weight transfers to the rear as will occur during acceloration, the front wheels lose grip. Both FWD and RWD cars will lose grip on the rear, and gain grip on the front as speed increases due to vernier affect. After acceleration, at high speed, power favors FWD cars.

FWD cars handle much differently, so learning to drive them competitively is a bit of a challenge, the ideal apex on any given corner is MUCH different than a similar RWD car.

As we've seen in BTC (and I used that example on purpose) is that similar hp/torque/price cars seem to fight it out pretty well FWD or RWD. But then hey, I'm not trying to compare a Ferrari F430 to an Elise.

Oh, and I'm not "just saying", it's physics and race results.
 
2012-02-19 11:54:26 AM

rohar: dforkus: rohar: dforkus: There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..

The results from BTC over the years seems to disprove your point. With similar HP cars it's a wash.

There's another reason the cars you mentioned are all rear drive. Packaging. It's a bit of a trick to stuff a 500hp motor, the transmission AND the differential all in the engine bay of a car that doesn't look like shiat.

The results of BTC racing neither prove nor disprove the point. Look at the top 10 production cars in slalom performance; 9 RWDs and one AWD, just sayin...

That's an interesting artifact of the test itself. The test is limited AND has no sanction. You put a boxster S and a 911 RS on a track rather than a slalom test and the variance is MUCH larger than .1%. It's an interesting data point, but speaks very little about the actual performance of the vehicle.

Here's the thing, FWD cars have a disadvantage at low end accelloration. As the weight transfers to the rear as will occur during acceloration, the front wheels lose grip. Both FWD and RWD cars will lose grip on the rear, and gain grip on the front as speed increases due to vernier affect. After acceleration, at high speed, power favors FWD cars.

FWD cars handle much differently, so learning to drive them competitively is a bit of a challenge, the ideal apex on any given corner is MUCH different than a similar RWD car.

As we've seen in BTC (and I used that example on purpose) is that similar hp/torque/price cars seem to fight it out pretty well FWD or RWD. But then hey, I'm not trying to compare a Ferrari F430 to an Elise.

Oh, and I'm not "just saying", it's physics and race results.


oooh, the "vernier" effect, he must know what he's talking about, and ending the post with an "oh, ...", I'm zinged and I'm loving it!!!!

It's Sunday, and I'm not about to get into some kind of engineering word penis length contest..
I know, I know, you know everything there is to know about cars, and are just dying to regale the world with said knowledge, just like you do on every other fark car thread..

One salty hard turd, should it fall into my one year old's diaper, I would not give you for a speaking fee.

Yes, FWD vehicles have gotten very very good, I did say that previously...
When the folks who make BMWs and Mercedes (and others) start embracing FWD wholesale, then maybe I'll believe there is no difference, until then, no..
 
2012-02-19 12:00:55 PM

dforkus: rohar: dforkus: rohar: dforkus: There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..

The results from BTC over the years seems to disprove your point. With similar HP cars it's a wash.

There's another reason the cars you mentioned are all rear drive. Packaging. It's a bit of a trick to stuff a 500hp motor, the transmission AND the differential all in the engine bay of a car that doesn't look like shiat.

The results of BTC racing neither prove nor disprove the point. Look at the top 10 production cars in slalom performance; 9 RWDs and one AWD, just sayin...

That's an interesting artifact of the test itself. The test is limited AND has no sanction. You put a boxster S and a 911 RS on a track rather than a slalom test and the variance is MUCH larger than .1%. It's an interesting data point, but speaks very little about the actual performance of the vehicle.

Here's the thing, FWD cars have a disadvantage at low end accelloration. As the weight transfers to the rear as will occur during acceloration, the front wheels lose grip. Both FWD and RWD cars will lose grip on the rear, and gain grip on the front as speed increases due to vernier affect. After acceleration, at high speed, power favors FWD cars.

FWD cars handle much differently, so learning to drive them competitively is a bit of a challenge, the ideal apex on any given corner is MUCH different than a similar RWD car.

As we've seen in BTC (and I used that example on purpose) is that similar hp/torque/price cars seem to fight it out pretty well FWD or RWD. But then hey, I'm not trying to compare a Ferrari F430 to an Elise.

Oh, and I'm not "just saying", it's physics and race results.

oooh, the "vernier" effect, he must know what he's talking about, and ending the post with an "oh, ...", I'm zinged and I'm loving it!!!!

It's Sunday, and I'm not about to ...


When a 318 can start beating a Rabbit on a regular basis in any sanction organization, we'll talk. Hasn't happened yet and they've been trying for decades.

They're not getting better, some absolutely own their class no matter what is competing against them. Brad Greco in ICSCC comes to mind.

But that goes against the American musclecar machismo, so it must not exist.
 
2012-02-19 01:25:55 PM

dforkus: rohar: dforkus: rohar: dforkus: There's a reason why race cars, high end sports cars, and sport-luxury cars like the Mercedes S class, and the CTS-V are rear drive. High speed handling, front wheel drive cars still don't compare..

The results from BTC over the years seems to disprove your point. With similar HP cars it's a wash.

There's another reason the cars you mentioned are all rear drive. Packaging. It's a bit of a trick to stuff a 500hp motor, the transmission AND the differential all in the engine bay of a car that doesn't look like shiat.

The results of BTC racing neither prove nor disprove the point. Look at the top 10 production cars in slalom performance; 9 RWDs and one AWD, just sayin...

That's an interesting artifact of the test itself. The test is limited AND has no sanction. You put a boxster S and a 911 RS on a track rather than a slalom test and the variance is MUCH larger than .1%. It's an interesting data point, but speaks very little about the actual performance of the vehicle.

Here's the thing, FWD cars have a disadvantage at low end accelloration. As the weight transfers to the rear as will occur during acceloration, the front wheels lose grip. Both FWD and RWD cars will lose grip on the rear, and gain grip on the front as speed increases due to vernier affect. After acceleration, at high speed, power favors FWD cars.

FWD cars handle much differently, so learning to drive them competitively is a bit of a challenge, the ideal apex on any given corner is MUCH different than a similar RWD car.

As we've seen in BTC (and I used that example on purpose) is that similar hp/torque/price cars seem to fight it out pretty well FWD or RWD. But then hey, I'm not trying to compare a Ferrari F430 to an Elise.

Oh, and I'm not "just saying", it's physics and race results.

oooh, the "vernier" effect, he must know what he's talking about, and ending the post with an "oh, ...", I'm zinged and I'm loving it!!!!

It's Sunday, and I'm not about to ...


BMW already embraced FWD with the Mini. the next BMW 1-Series (after the recent refresh) will be FWD as well, with minivan and CUV variants...all based on the Mini's platform.

Mercedes has also embraced FWD, but not in the US yet. The A and B classes are FWD.
 
2012-02-19 03:15:32 PM
For an article that's supposed to be about muscle cars, why didn't they have any? And no, the Camaro's not a muscle car. It never was. It's a pony car, a category obviously named in honor of the Mustang. The Chevelle SS was Chevy's muscle car. The muscle cars were all essentially souped up mid-size and full-size family cars. So, if Chevy were to come out with a Cruze SS, that could fit with the muscle car thing. Same with that Focus ST. If you want to go upscale, the Lexus IS-F. The now gone Pontiac G8 GXP could also be called a muscle car. Even the BMW M series could fit the category, albeit very expensively. But the cars shown? No.
 
2012-02-19 06:24:38 PM

wildcardjack: It might be a sports car, a fun ride and all, but a muscle car needs to have a frightening amount of power from the factory.


Yeah, I always looked at muscle cars and sports cars as two different beasts. They both had lots of horsepower, but the similarities tended to end there. IMHO, the difference between a sports and muscle car generally tended to be that:

1) muscle cars were cheaper than sports cars
2) muscle cars used larger engine displacement over higher compression or high RPMs (see item 1)
3) sports cars had better suspension, able to handle curves better (see item 1)
4) muscle cars had aggressive body styles while sports cars tended to be more sleek

Item 2 may start to change due to CAFE and gas prices, but the rest are still generally valid.
 
2012-02-19 07:10:29 PM

Lsherm: Heist: Granted, Subaru is most often associated with college professors from Vermont and graying hippies (those groups probably have a lot of overlap), but they certainly seem more capable of producing a muscle car than VW.

I drove a WRX and had a blast. Plus, it was 100 times better than anything VW puts out because the electrical system didn't catch on fire and try to burn me to death in the middle of the ride.


The insulation around my catalytic converter (you know the stuff that is supposed to keep things from catching on fire) caught on fire with my VW.
 
2012-02-19 07:38:39 PM

Lsherm: it was 100 times better than anything VW puts out because the electrical system didn't catch on fire and try to burn me to death in the middle of the ride.


VW electronics do more than just catch fire. Besides having several relays fail, I also had the oddity in that the CD/cassette combo player in mine played tapes backwards. I also triggered the car alarm twice while opening the sun roof, even though the car was unlocked and in motion.
 
2012-02-19 08:56:11 PM
Mr. Eugenides: I'm going to disagree with your metric. It's not a muscle car with less than 400 pound/feet of torque. It's fairly easy to build a high reving engine that can make 350 HP at 6000 RPM, but that doesn't help you with a drag race across an intersection.

Also known as a Muscle Car.
i.imgur.com

553 ft-lbs from 2000 RPM.
 
2012-02-19 09:40:05 PM

Dinjiin: I also had the oddity in that the CD/cassette combo player in mine played tapes backwards


I first read that as "played 'Taps' backwards," and it was a lot more fun that way.
 
2012-02-19 11:27:36 PM

The Smails Kid: it was a lot more fun that way


The first and only cassette I ever played in that car was a supplemental learning tape for an introductory Spanish class. It was after the first day of class and I recall putting the tape in and thinking, "there is something wrong with this guy's Spanish". It took me about half a minute of going WTF before I realized it was backwards. I even tested the cassette on another deck to see if the tape was recorded backwards (it wasn't).

I left it in to mess with passengers I had in the car. Much more entertaining than taps played backwards.
 
2012-02-19 11:36:41 PM

EJ25T: No, the BRZ/FT is not a muscle car. It's not supposed to be.

I happen to love cars like this. I takes everything that's good about the 240Z/Miata/S2K formula and puts it in a new package. The average driving enthusiast can drive those cars at about 8/10ths of their limit on public roads and not stuff them into a tree.

Camaros/Mustangs have their place in this world, but I'll never own one. I was pretty close to buying a Camaro SS, but after the test drive, I felt nothing for the car. I currently have a modded WRX with about 300hp and tq, and I thought I'd be blown away by the extra 150hp of the Camaro. I can't remember being more underwhelmed after a test drive.

As far as who's going to buy the BRZ/FT, I see it doing very well, sales-wise. Import fanboys have been waiting for a new Trueno for decades, and it's not because they were blistering fast. It's because they were just really fun to drive.

Finding a light, nimble, RWD manual transmission coupe has been kind of hard lately. This vehicle definitely fills a void in the market. It will also be one of the easiest cars to bolt an aftermarket turbo kit onto. I'm sure there will be an STI version, but I'm not sure I'll wait that long.

I don't really care if people "get" the car or not. It will be my next vehicle. I'll keep my WRX for a little peace of mind when the weather gets crappy, but a year or so from now, I'll be just as happy with my BRZ as everyone else is with their Camaros and Mustangs.


As an owner of an 06 WRX as well as a 1985 Corolla GT-S, I will definitely be buying a BRZ. Although I'm going to hold out for the STI model. I love the WRX and I love the 86, so I'm pretty much ecstatic that Subaru is working with Toyota on bringing the car to market. Although I won't buy a Scion, so it's going to be the BRZ.
 
2012-02-20 12:28:08 AM
CSB:

Subaru sponsored an event I worked on and I got to drive a limited edition "Spec-B," which was basically a super-tricked-out Legacy.

Holy Crap.

Within minutes, I knew I could never own a car like that because I would be in jail or dead in a matter of weeks. It was like it accelerated with the power of my thoughts. See a gap in traffic, and boom- there, with no apparent transition between the two locations.
 
2012-02-20 01:03:43 AM

SniperJoe:
As an owner of an 06 WRX as well as a 1985 Corolla GT-S, I will definitely be buying a BRZ. Although I'm going to hold out for the STI model. I love the WRX and I love the 86, so I'm pretty much ecstatic that Subaru is working with Toyota on bringing the car to market. Although I won't buy a Scion, so it's going to be the BRZ.


As an owner of an 87 GT-S, I'm going to go with the Scion, and then spend some money at the parts dept getting Toyota badges.
 
2012-02-20 06:02:57 AM
i42.tinypic.com

No Challenger mention?
 
2012-02-20 08:26:29 AM

Heist: Granted, Subaru is most often associated with college professors from Vermont and graying hippies (those groups probably have a lot of overlap), but they certainly seem more capable of producing a muscle car than VW.


Drove mine this morning. In Vermont. 50 miles of frozen mud ruts and sketchy hard top, frost heaves, and wildlife crossings. Yeah, I could drive something else, but I like reliable transportation.
With all wheel drive and studded snow tires, I can climb hills other vehicles lose to.
That's a muscle car.
 
2012-02-20 09:08:48 AM

ApatheticMonkey: As an owner of an 87 GT-S, I'm going to go with the Scion, and then spend some money at the parts dept getting Toyota badges.


I had contemplated that, but decided that I liked the interior of the BRZ better than the one in the Scion. Unfortunately, I also like the exterior of the Scion better than the Subaru. So ideally, I could have the interior of the BRZ, the exterior of the Scion and then swap the badging on it. We'll see if they release a TRD model of the Scion, which may be an option, but that seems a whole lot more unlikely than an STI model.
 
2012-02-20 10:50:10 AM
"F**k this car"

/beyond
 
kab
2012-02-20 12:32:25 PM
Folks are still trying to assert that FWD cars are equal to or better than RWD in terms of performance?

Loss of hp from crank to wheels? Advantage FWD
Everything else? Advantage RWD
 
2012-02-20 11:34:55 PM

SniperJoe: ApatheticMonkey: As an owner of an 87 GT-S, I'm going to go with the Scion, and then spend some money at the parts dept getting Toyota badges.

I had contemplated that, but decided that I liked the interior of the BRZ better than the one in the Scion. Unfortunately, I also like the exterior of the Scion better than the Subaru. So ideally, I could have the interior of the BRZ, the exterior of the Scion and then swap the badging on it. We'll see if they release a TRD model of the Scion, which may be an option, but that seems a whole lot more unlikely than an STI model.


I wonder how the cops would take to you replacing the front bumper and badges (and airbag) with the Toyota units.
 
2012-02-21 07:52:06 AM

ApatheticMonkey: I wonder how the cops would take to you replacing the front bumper and badges (and airbag) with the Toyota units.


I don't ever plan on mixing makes like that, tis just wishful thinking. If I could have it in a perfect world, that's how it would be. Like you, the most I'd probably do is change the badging from Scion to Toyota, which the cops don't really care about. I've known lots of people who have changed from Acura to Honda or Lexus to Toyota badging and they have all been fine when it comes to cops.
 
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