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(Talking Points Memo)   FBI foils a plot by a man to bomb U.S. capitol. Arrested him as he was on the way to the building, with a vest full of what he thought were explosives   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 50
    More: Scary, FBI, vest, explosives  
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16301 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Feb 2012 at 4:53 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-02-17 02:53:57 PM
15 votes:
Is this another of those "FBI foils their own plot" things?
2012-02-17 03:30:35 PM
4 votes:

GAT_00: How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?



If it's like most of these recent cases they probably not only gave him the "explosives", but a car, a cell phone, paid his rent and took out his garbage for the past several months.

The only guys that the FBI seems to be able to recruit for these gigs wear sandals because they're too inept to work shoelaces.
2012-02-17 03:21:25 PM
4 votes:

TheOmni: Is this another of those "FBI foils their own plot" things?


Exactly my question too.

Step 1: Troll some incompetent person into doing what they thought was a terror plot
Step 2: By giving them information they'd never come up with on their own, so they get further along than they ever would have otherwise
Step 3: Make a big show of stopping the criminal you set up
Step 4: Profit? Hey, at least your numbers are good.
2012-02-17 04:28:38 PM
3 votes:

GAT_00: Intent is trying to build the bomb yourself, not being given the materials from the FBI.


You're missing the point - the goal isn't to stop terrorism. the goal is to scare the piss outta voters so that they accept increasingly invasive government watching their every move. once everyone is watched all the time, then we can all be free!

or we'll all go completely insane and just start smashing panopticon surveillance everywhere we find it.
2012-02-17 03:26:59 PM
3 votes:
Thank God for the FBI.

If it weren't for them, we'd have no terrorists at all!
2012-02-17 03:04:52 PM
3 votes:
This is why vests are bad for American, whether they're explosive or sweater.

/sweater vests protect you from pretty girls.
2012-02-17 03:03:57 PM
3 votes:
How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?
2012-02-17 02:49:50 PM
3 votes:
ALAHU AKBAR!!!!!

*Click* *click* *click*

ALAHU DAMN IT!
2012-02-17 04:46:34 PM
2 votes:

GAT_00: Codenamechaz: And in doing so showed this person had actual intent to commit the crime had someone from an actual terrorist organization contacted them and not the FBI.

How is this any different than when state or local police forces use an undercover stand-in for drug busts or murder for hire cases?

It's not, and those should be considered entrapment too. And you're simply assuming that intent was shown. That's a complete fallacy, you have no way of knowing that. Intent is trying to build the bomb yourself, not being given the materials from the FBI.


I never knew preventing crime was entrapment.

The alternate being just arresting people ex post facto, some time after they've already committed the crime and people are dead or seriously injured. The dead will take great comfort that their killer, if he survived the blast, will finally be brought to justice instead of just being stopped from happening entirely.

And me assuming intent was shown is just like you assuming that the FBI just persuaded the guy to go ahead with it 100%

And why would the FBI give him "materials" in the first place if he didn't have desire or intent to build a bomb and harm someone with it?

Why is it really that difficult to believe that someone would actually want to harm other human beings without that thought being implanted in their head by the authorities?
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-02-17 04:33:59 PM
2 votes:

GAT_00: How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?


Because that isn't what entrapment means? Entrapment is inducing someone to do something they wouldn't do on their own. Giving someone the opportunity to incriminate themselves is not entrapment.

Link (new window)
2012-02-17 04:33:25 PM
2 votes:

serpent_sky:
The ones they catch like this appear to be idiots with no ability to pull off their ideas.


Yes, but those serve a purpose as well...fear and paranoia are useful when it comes time for budget appropriations. someone asks questions about the effectiveness of our security theater, the government can point to cases like this one and say 'see! we know what we're doing!'
2012-02-17 04:05:19 PM
2 votes:

Weaver95: THIS is a domestic terrorist. what the FBI finds are not even in the same class as Heemeyer was.


Holy crap.

Strikes me along the same lines of someone who is suicidal. If they tell anyone, they have no intention of killing themselves. They want to be stopped, more often than not, and they want attention. The ones who really want to die? It usually comes as something of a shock, or at the very least, nobody knew they were thinking of it.
2012-02-17 04:03:50 PM
2 votes:

GAT_00: Codenamechaz: GAT_00: Codenamechaz: Because if they already have the intent to do so, it's legally not entrapment, or at least according to the courts.

But shouldn't intent imply ability? You can say you want to fark a supermodel, which is intent, but doesn't come close to implying ability. He couldn't have committed the crime if he wasn't given the weapons. It's basically thoughtcrime.

Intent as in "actively performing or seeking a way to perform the actl".

Yeah, it's one thing to basically go "Man, I want to blow something up" and go on your merry way.

But it's completely different to go "Man, i want to blow something up" and start calling up a bunch of people looking for bomb supplies.

Except when it comes to cases like this, it's a guy going "Man, I want to blow something up" and an FBI agent comes up and goes "Hey, I can help with that." There have been plenty of cases where the FBI agents actually convinced the person to carry out the bombing, simply because they voiced the thought once.


And in doing so showed this person had actual intent to commit the crime had someone from an actual terrorist organization contacted them and not the FBI.

How is this any different than when state or local police forces use an undercover stand-in for drug busts or murder for hire cases?
2012-02-17 03:51:18 PM
2 votes:

TheOmni: Is this another of those "FBI foils their own plot" things?


yup.

If I was going to do something incredibly stupid, I'd plan it out and get the legwork done on my own. if someone said they wanted to help me, I'd assume they were working for the cops and I'd shut everything down and destroy the evidence.
2012-02-17 03:44:53 PM
2 votes:

GAT_00: Codenamechaz: Because if they already have the intent to do so, it's legally not entrapment, or at least according to the courts.

But shouldn't intent imply ability? You can say you want to fark a supermodel, which is intent, but doesn't come close to implying ability. He couldn't have committed the crime if he wasn't given the weapons. It's basically thoughtcrime.


Intent as in "actively performing or seeking a way to perform the actl".

Yeah, it's one thing to basically go "Man, I want to blow something up" and go on your merry way.

But it's completely different to go "Man, i want to blow something up" and start calling up a bunch of people looking for bomb supplies.
2012-02-17 03:11:44 PM
2 votes:

GAT_00: How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?


Because if they already have the intent to do so, it's legally not entrapment, or at least according to the courts. Entrapment implies that they encouraged a random, unsuspecting person to do something illegal.

There was an article online about how the FBI would set up fake kiddy porn websites and put links to them on known sites for kiddy porn browsers, and idiots who clicked on the links got their IPs tracked down by the FBI. One guy caught like this tried to fight it for reasons of Entrapment, but the courts determined that, because he already had the intent to look for something illegal, then it's not entrapment.
2012-02-17 02:55:40 PM
2 votes:
And this is good... why?

/I still think they should have given him real explosives and let him go on his way
2012-02-18 01:30:14 AM
1 votes:

BlippityBleep: The FBIs actions is this shiat would be illegal as fark in a just society.


guarantee you wouldn't be saying this if it was a white guy about to bomb an abortion clinic.
2012-02-17 11:33:47 PM
1 votes:
When you cultivate the "guy who should have been deported from the beginning" for a year or so & then provide the materials for the crime, it may be time to wonder who the terrorists really are.
2012-02-17 10:08:04 PM
1 votes:

BMFPitt: Banned on the Run: Seriously. When was the last time the domestic arrests went any further up the terror chain than "lone idiot"?

We got a small group of idiots with one of these a few years back. I think at least 2 of them weren't FBI.


Maybe all the higher ups get blasted into nothingness by drones before they can even leave their home countries.
2012-02-17 07:24:22 PM
1 votes:
From a CNN article:

"A second law enforcement official said El Khalifi is not connected to a terrorist organization and was acting alone."

Alone, except for the extensive amount of assistance he had from the FBI to proceed with the plot.

/false flag is false
2012-02-17 06:14:43 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: I will laugh the day one of those people arrested pulls out an affidavit that they signed and had notarized months before, saying that they believe the people they are in contact with are the FBI, and that they don't have any actual intent to commit any crime, and that to be on the safe side, they will sabotage any device given to them to prevent any harm to anyone.


Yeah, and I'm sure the FBI guys will have a big laugh over that and everyone will go out for a couple of beers.

As opposed to, say, filing charges of interfering in a government investigation, lying to federal officers, as well as terrorism conspiracy charges for the notary.
2012-02-17 05:58:44 PM
1 votes:
FBI: Here dude, take this vest and go blow up the capital.
Dupe: Uh huh, Derp!
FBI: FREEZE SCUMBAG! You're under arrest.
FBI to congress: As you can see, we're busting terrorists, left and right. Give us more money.
Congress: Gee, Mr FBI guy, you sure are doing a great job. Here's a blank check.
2012-02-17 05:31:18 PM
1 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com
2012-02-17 05:30:58 PM
1 votes:

ArkAngel: With virgins, there's no need to count strokes


Only the first stroke counts.
2012-02-17 05:29:23 PM
1 votes:

TheOmni: Is this another of those "FBI foils their own plot" things?


Amos Quito: Thank God for the FBI.

If it weren't for them, we'd have no terrorists at all!


Headso: Ya,ya, retard says he wants to asplode congress, FBI being the whores they are, stroked his ego long and hard and then gave him a fake gun and some faker explosives so they can arrest him later.


You're exactly right. We should just let these guys carry out their plots on their own and count on our luck and their incompetence to blow themselves up (maybe a few nobody bystanders get hit in the process, but omelets, eggs and all that) or have their devices fail.
2012-02-17 05:22:50 PM
1 votes:
Here's an article about this wannabe bomber (new window). Moroccan immigrant who outstayed his visa and apparently ordering books his landlord claimed didn't look like books. Cunning stunt completely undone by stupid stunter.
2012-02-17 05:19:01 PM
1 votes:
At least this time the terrorists were targeting the right group of people.
2012-02-17 05:18:46 PM
1 votes:

serpent_sky: Weaver95: THIS is a domestic terrorist. what the FBI finds are not even in the same class as Heemeyer was.

Holy crap.

Strikes me along the same lines of someone who is suicidal. If they tell anyone, they have no intention of killing themselves. They want to be stopped, more often than not, and they want attention. The ones who really want to die? It usually comes as something of a shock, or at the very least, nobody knew they were thinking of it.


I'm thinking you don't know anyone who committed suicide. That ain't exactly how it works. My college roommate killed himself, and it was by no means a big shock. And he talked about trying to avoid suicidal thoughts ALL THE TIME.
2012-02-17 05:15:56 PM
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Maybe the best defense against terrorism rape would be to...



...STOP PISSING EVERYONE OFF DRESSING LIKE A WHORE!


/Too radical?


Makes just as much sense.
2012-02-17 05:11:21 PM
1 votes:

Corvus: GAT_00: How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?

It's not about ability its about intent. If someone sales someone a weapon the person wanting to commit the crime goes to jail not the person selling the weapon.


especially if they sell it south of the border to mexican drug lords.
2012-02-17 05:08:49 PM
1 votes:

GAT_00: How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?


Just like it's not entrapment when a undercover cop hangs out on the corner, and the Johns drive up to her looking for sex.
2012-02-17 05:07:50 PM
1 votes:

AdolfOliverPanties: It angers me that some authorities think they are above the law and can entrap someone like that. Some pencil pusher made an executive decision and acted like the entire capitol was under siege or something, when in reality it was a lone guy out for a kill. I applaud the patriots who are placing themselves in the belly of the beast and infiltrating al Qaeda, but we are a country of laws. Instead of entrapping people, we should use an attack force to go after the foreigners that mean to place Americans on deadly ground. They aren't that hard to kill if you do it right. These guys are mostly living in caves and are half past dead anyway. Once they know they are marked for death they will take steps to stay out of reach of our forces. They won't experience 72 virgins in Heaven, but instead will get a fire down below.


Thank you Mr. Segal.

/Hard to Kill
//On Deadly Ground
///Straight to Video
2012-02-17 05:06:10 PM
1 votes:
It feels like the FBI is running some kind of farked up version of Fight Club. Where they go recruit not to bright people who have zero means to accomplish anything on their own. Then they hand hold them through the planning stages, give them all the equipment they need, and then take credit when they bust them at the end.

If some guy says he wants to blow up the Capitol, by all means tap his phone. On the day he mets with the Russian arms dealers, feel free to raid the meeting. Selling fake C4 and enabling this is bullshiat though.
2012-02-17 04:56:45 PM
1 votes:
Preventing crime isn't entrapment. Encouraging someone to break the law and then catching them as they attempt it, *is* entrapment.
2012-02-17 04:29:46 PM
1 votes:

Weaver95: THAT'S what a home grown terrorist can do....and you can't stop them. if someone wants it badly enough and has the time and dedication to really stick it to the fedgov...they'll get pretty far before they get taken down. they might even manage to kill someone at the top of the food chain. if they want to trade their lives for a kill, they have a good chance of success.


That's what ANY terrorist can do. If they are truly terrorists and want to pull off their plot, they'll blend in, seem normal, say NOTHING, and when the time comes, do it. They're not in it for fame or glory; it's a whole other mindset. This is why we will never win the "war" on terrorism. Nobody will even be aware of these people until they have done the act.

The ones they catch like this appear to be idiots with no ability to pull off their ideas.
2012-02-17 04:23:16 PM
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Weaver95: THIS is a domestic terrorist. what the FBI finds are not even in the same class as Heemeyer was.


WOW!

This guy clearly didn't intend to kill anyone other than himself. Had he wanted to, he certainly could have given the time, effort and expertise he devoted to building that contraption.

Was he a "terrorist"? Maybe. But I think he was frustrated with life, and wanted to make an impressive "closing statement".


Heemeyer is something law enforcement would rather nobody remember. if even one tenth of one percent of the US population woke up one day and decided to do something even half as nuts as what Heemeyer did, D.C. would be a pile of rubble inside of a month.
2012-02-17 04:15:42 PM
1 votes:

serpent_sky: Weaver95: THIS is a domestic terrorist. what the FBI finds are not even in the same class as Heemeyer was.

Holy crap.

Strikes me along the same lines of someone who is suicidal. If they tell anyone, they have no intention of killing themselves. They want to be stopped, more often than not, and they want attention. The ones who really want to die? It usually comes as something of a shock, or at the very least, nobody knew they were thinking of it.


People tend to forget just how wacky and dedicated our local loonies can get. that guy built a frick tank. impervious to small arms fire, virtually impossible for anyone to get to him. He rampaged around his home town and took down the houses and buildings of damn near everyone he had a grudge against. it took him a couple/few years to get that sucker ready tho, and he kept quiet the whole time he was doing it. can you imagine if he'd taken that monster tank of his and drove it up the steps of the US Supreme court building?

THAT'S what a home grown terrorist can do....and you can't stop them. if someone wants it badly enough and has the time and dedication to really stick it to the fedgov...they'll get pretty far before they get taken down. they might even manage to kill someone at the top of the food chain. if they want to trade their lives for a kill, they have a good chance of success.
2012-02-17 04:13:54 PM
1 votes:

TheOmni: Is this another of those "FBI foils their own plot" things?

The man thought undercover FBI agents assisting him in his plot were associates of Al Qaeda. He purchased bomb materials including jackets, nails and glue in preparation for an attack. He even conducted a test explosives demonstration in a quarry.
....
The FBI provided the suspect with a disabled gun during their ongoing operation, Fox News has learned.


Sure sounds like it. (new window)

I like how they list a jacket as bomb making material. I guarantee anything that was supposed to be explosive was provided by the FBI. Hell, the FBI probably suggested a good old-fashioned bombing. They probably also gave him an allowance and bombarded him with fake emails about how evil the US is.

I'm all for capturing terrorists, but if we're technically teaching them how to be one and then goading them into acting on it, it's a hollow victory.
2012-02-17 04:01:21 PM
1 votes:

Codenamechaz: GAT_00: Codenamechaz: Because if they already have the intent to do so, it's legally not entrapment, or at least according to the courts.

But shouldn't intent imply ability? You can say you want to fark a supermodel, which is intent, but doesn't come close to implying ability. He couldn't have committed the crime if he wasn't given the weapons. It's basically thoughtcrime.

Intent as in "actively performing or seeking a way to perform the actl".

Yeah, it's one thing to basically go "Man, I want to blow something up" and go on your merry way.

But it's completely different to go "Man, i want to blow something up" and start calling up a bunch of people looking for bomb supplies.


Except when it comes to cases like this, it's a guy going "Man, I want to blow something up" and an FBI agent comes up and goes "Hey, I can help with that." There have been plenty of cases where the FBI agents actually convinced the person to carry out the bombing, simply because they voiced the thought once.
2012-02-17 03:55:23 PM
1 votes:

kingoomieiii: Codenamechaz: because he already had the intent to look for something illegal, then it's not entrapment.

You REALLY think that this guy, and the last guy, and the guy before him, weren't pressured into it? If the guy backs out two days before the "attack", they lose WEEKS of "work".


Still misses the point though. Had he not been actively seeking a way to cause damage or harm, or attempting to contact people in order to get supplies to do so, he wouldn't have caught the FBI's attention in the first place.

Otherwise, you're pretty much accusing the FBI of randomly choosing some brown person and going "Hey, you know what? You should attack the U.S. Capital."
2012-02-17 03:53:55 PM
1 votes:
THIS is a domestic terrorist. what the FBI finds are not even in the same class as Heemeyer was.
2012-02-17 03:45:29 PM
1 votes:

GAT_00: How is it not entrapment if you give him the ability to commit the crime?


The joke is that they didn't. *Click click click click*

But, yeah, this is bullshiat. Setting up unlocked "bait" cars is one thing (Bullshiat level 1), but this is like planting an FBI agent as the guy's friend and telling the mark that the bait car is awesome and that he really wants him to steal it. (Bullshiat level 50)
2012-02-17 03:32:20 PM
1 votes:

Codenamechaz: Because if they already have the intent to do so, it's legally not entrapment, or at least according to the courts.


But shouldn't intent imply ability? You can say you want to fark a supermodel, which is intent, but doesn't come close to implying ability. He couldn't have committed the crime if he wasn't given the weapons. It's basically thoughtcrime.
2012-02-17 03:27:18 PM
1 votes:

ArkAngel: /most golf courses are par 72
//coincidence?

With virgins, there's no need to count strokes


nice!

kbronsito: It is 72!. I wrote a post on some other thread earlier with the number 40. I guess my mind wasn't all there on this post.


I've actually heard the number 72 is a myth perpetuated by the jews (yeah sure, blame them for everything).
2012-02-17 03:08:01 PM
1 votes:

Mark Ratner: kbronsito: Do not pass Go. Do not collect 40 virgins.

It's 72 virgins, not 40. You can't expect them to blow themselves up for a measly 40 virgins or even 60 for that matter, but 72 is just about as good as it gets.

/most golf courses are par 72
//coincidence?


With virgins, there's no need to count strokes
2012-02-17 03:01:59 PM
1 votes:

kbronsito: Do not pass Go. Do not collect 40 virgins.


It's 72 virgins, not 40. You can't expect them to blow themselves up for a measly 40 virgins or even 60 for that matter, but 72 is just about as good as it gets.

/most golf courses are par 72
//coincidence?
2012-02-17 03:00:36 PM
1 votes:
download.lardlad.com

Chief Wiggum: Wait a minute... that isn't a bomb! Those are hot dogs! Armour hot dogs!
Superintendent Chalmers: What kind of man wears Armour hot dogs?
2012-02-17 02:59:18 PM
1 votes:
that was not a story. that was a headline.
2012-02-17 02:56:30 PM
1 votes:
Do not pass Go. Do not collect 40 virgins.
 
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