Theaetetus: DozeNutz: I do not get how an unborn baby being taken out and killed, is not murder. Because its not a person? It has the DNA of a person, but somehow age has something to do with it. Can you refute that an unborn baby is not a person? We are all defined by the characteristics of our DNA. Therefore, scientifically, its a person.

No. Therefore, scientifically, it's human.
"Personhood" is a philosophical term, not a scientific one. And, under US law, you are not a person until you're born.

I abhor abortion, its murdering little babies.

Again, no. You may abhor abortion, but it's certainly not "murdering little babies". That'd be infantcide, which everyone abhors.

For me, there is no justification for innocent murder. Just the fact that it is unwanted does not change the fact is it a person, or has rights.

And again, no. It's not because it's unwanted, but because it's not born yet - that's why it's not a person and has no rights.

If you asked a person that would have been aborted in the womb after he was born if they wished they were aborted, I'd bet they choose life. Its better to have lived than not have lived at all amirite? Who cares if you are poor or disenfranchised, life is a gift. There is always someone worse off, and its always better to be living than to be dead IMO.

And? If you asked me whether I'd like to have a billion dollars, I'd say yes. Therefore, I have a right to it?

Your arguments are farking dumb. A billion dollars? cmon man, that is a lame ass analogy. I hope you like sharing consciences with the likes of Hitler and Stalin though.

DozeNutz: keylock71: DozeNutz:
He is taking away freedom of choice.

Well, social conservatives shouldn't have a problem with that considering their stance on Abortion...

"Freedom of choice is what you got.
Freedom from choice is what you want."

Ok, well, does the unborn have a choice? Its going to live and become a person. Did you know an unborn baby has inheritance rights? Did you know the doctor can get sued if it injures an unborn baby? But if its unwanted, those legal rights are not there. So where is the justice in that? 2 sets of laws because a child is unwanted? Its called law because its universal to everyone. Rule of man is what monarchs and dictatorships are made of.

Those legal rights are the rights of the mother, not the embryo or fetus. If she intends to give birth, he has affected her legal rights. Actually, the fact that you bring it up shows that it's a case of choice - she can choose not to have a baby, and she can choose to give birth to a child. He can't interfere with that choice.

If an unborn child has rights, then why do we date ourselves from our date of BIRTH? Why can't someone vote when he's 17 years and 3 months old, or drink when he's 20.25?

And law is, by definition, the rule of man.

Foster Friess (Rick Santorum's butt-buddy) on contraception:

"I get such a chuckle when these things come out. Here we have millions of our fellow Americans unemployed, we have jihadist camps being set up in Latin America, which Rick has been warning about, and people seem to be so preoccupied with sex. I think that says something about our culture. We maybe need a massive therapy session so we can concentrate on what the real issues are. And this contraceptive thing, my gosh, it's such inexpensive. Back in my days, they used Bayer Aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly."

Zerochance: Back in my days, they used Bayer Aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly.

Buh?

If men have no right to interfere with a woman's reproductive system, then women should have no right to demand that men pay for the consequences with how women choose to use that reproductive system if they did not get to enjoy the use of that reproductive system.

/but it's never about fairness, is it?

Quasar: And to think it was only 2 short weeks ago that a 14 year old was testifying in front of a state Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee about how it would be a super swell birthday present if they didn't allow gay marriage.

They only want testimony from qualified experts, and who could possibly be more expert on the subject of "icky stuff" than a 14 year old girl?

Zerochance: More_Like_A_Stain: Mike Chewbacca: DORMAMU: vernonFL: colon_pow: this is not about contraception..

The Civil War wasn't about slavery.

Actually it wasnt.

It was more of a divergent virw about whether states could override the federal government. When lincoln was electe president, he won mostly in the north. The south then felt more isolated because lincoln didnt carry a single south state (i think).

The emancipation proclimation added fuel.

Actually, yes, it was. The "The Civil War wasn't about slavery" is Southern revisionism at its best. Half the South seceded before Lincoln was even in office. The Emancipation Proclamation was delivered a good 18 months after the Civil War started. How can something that happened after the war started add fuel to the fire that caused the Civil War?

[www.strangecosmos.com image 450x385]

Damn him!

God, I hate to RONPAULify the thread, but that's one of his biggest whoppers: delivering a speech in front of a Confederate flag, arguing that the South was right to secede, and that the Civil War was not about slavery and that saying otherwise was just Big Government indoctrination in schools.

*smiles at result*

LouDobbsAwaaaay: error 303: I'm okay with allowing a very narrow religious exemption for entities which are explicitly religious in nature. i.e. the church will not need to provide contraception to priests, nuns, deacons, or any other member who is employed in a directly religious role.

Wouldn't these people refuse to engage in contraception that violates their beliefs, thereby solving the problem without any changes to the contraception mandate at all?

I don't get a special, itemized deduction for every single thing I pay for that I personally disagree with. I don't see how it should be different just because your job description involves pretending a fairy tale is real.

While I entirely agree, religions get all sort of crazy exemptions all the time, so an exemption for explicit religious activity is in line with current policy. At the same time I would hope we can all agree that hospitals and schools, while affiliated with religious institutions, are not engaged in religious activity and therefore should not get an exemption.

Were it up to me we'd just have a single payer system and religious organizations would be taxed just like any other massive organization.

beta_plus: If men have no right to interfere with a woman's reproductive system, then women should have no right to demand that men pay for the consequences with how women choose to use that reproductive system if they did not get to enjoy the use of that reproductive system.

/but it's never about fairness, is it?

You sound jealous. If only men could have babies.

beta_plus: If men have no right to interfere with a woman's reproductive system, then women should have no right to demand that men pay for the consequences with how women choose to use that reproductive system if they did not get to enjoy the use of that reproductive system.

/but it's never about fairness, is it?

If the woman is pregnant, some man enjoyed the use of her reproductive system in most cases.

DozeNutz: Theaetetus: DozeNutz: I do not get how an unborn baby being taken out and killed, is not murder. Because its not a person? It has the DNA of a person, but somehow age has something to do with it. Can you refute that an unborn baby is not a person? We are all defined by the characteristics of our DNA. Therefore, scientifically, its a person.

No. Therefore, scientifically, it's human.
"Personhood" is a philosophical term, not a scientific one. And, under US law, you are not a person until you're born.

I abhor abortion, its murdering little babies.

Again, no. You may abhor abortion, but it's certainly not "murdering little babies". That'd be infantcide, which everyone abhors.

For me, there is no justification for innocent murder. Just the fact that it is unwanted does not change the fact is it a person, or has rights.

And again, no. It's not because it's unwanted, but because it's not born yet - that's why it's not a person and has no rights.

If you asked a person that would have been aborted in the womb after he was born if they wished they were aborted, I'd bet they choose life. Its better to have lived than not have lived at all amirite? Who cares if you are poor or disenfranchised, life is a gift. There is always someone worse off, and its always better to be living than to be dead IMO.

And? If you asked me whether I'd like to have a billion dollars, I'd say yes. Therefore, I have a right to it?

Your arguments are farking dumb. A billion dollars? cmon man, that is a lame ass analogy. I hope you like sharing consciences with the likes of Hitler and Stalin though.

Women don't just get abortions for fun. Ask a woman who died in childbirth if she would have rather had an abortion. Who is going to wish they were aborted? The point is that the clump of cells does not get carte blanche priority over a living woman with a life, a family, friends, memories, hopes and a future.

beta_plus: If men have no right to interfere with a woman's reproductive system, then women should have no right to demand that men pay for the consequences with how women choose to use that reproductive system if they did not get to enjoy the use of that reproductive system.

/but it's never about fairness, is it?

I guess the problem is that a man is a necessary component for a woman to utilize her reproductive system in the capacity that is under discussion (artificial insemination being a relatively new phenomenon).

DozeNutz: I do not get how an unborn baby being taken out and killed, is not murder. Because its not a person? It has the DNA of a person, but somehow age has something to do with it. Can you refute that an unborn baby is not a person? We are all defined by the characteristics of our DNA. Therefore, scientifically, its a person. I abhor abortion, its murdering little babies. For me, there is no justification for innocent murder. Just the fact that it is unwanted does not change the fact is it a person, or has rights. If you asked a person that would have been aborted in the womb after he was born if they wished they were aborted, I'd bet they choose life.

Its better to have lived than not have lived at all amirite? Who cares if you are poor or disenfranchised, life is a gift. There is always someone worse off, and its always better to be living than to be dead IMO.

1. A baby is born. Therefore, an "unborn baby" is an oxymoron.

2. No one endorses what you envision - a baby being pulled out just before birth and killed. Even "partial-birth abortion" - which is a bullshiat term - is only used in rare cases when there is a risk of death to the mother. But I guess you're fine with her dying just in case the baby survives.

3. At what point does a fertilized egg turn into "a baby?" Is it "a baby" when it's an 8 week old embryo, has a tail, and is indistinguishable from the embryo of a dog or chicken?

Which embryo is human? (new window)

/Yes, I see what he's doing

DozeNutz: Ok, well, does the unborn have a choice?



Me: Hey, Blastocyst, what do you think about this?

Blastocyst: ...

Me: Surely you have something to say?

Blastocyst: ...

Nope. The cluster of 100 cells (that pro-lifers would have you believe is an actual person) has no opinion on this

theorellior: Zerochance: Back in my days, they used Bayer Aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly.

O.o

Here is the clip of the statements, linked from the Maddow Blog:

Link

PanicMan: DozeNutz: I do not get how an unborn baby being taken out and killed, is not murder. Because its not a person? It has the DNA of a person, but somehow age has something to do with it.

"somehow age has something to do with it?" Yes, I think having an age less than zero might have something to do with it.


George Will, on Morning Joe this morning, said something interesting that I think should be expounded upon: If the Virginia personhood bill gets ratified, won't they have to subtract 9 months from the age of majority? What if that child is premature?

According to the law, wouldn't the legal voting age in Virginia then be 17 years, 3 months, the legal drinking age 20 years, 3 months, the legal age of consent 15 years and 3 months? Where does the clock start?

Oh, those constitutional genuses have figured that out yet.

Philip Francis Queeg: beta_plus: If men have no right to interfere with a woman's reproductive system, then women should have no right to demand that men pay for the consequences with how women choose to use that reproductive system if they did not get to enjoy the use of that reproductive system.

/but it's never about fairness, is it?

If the woman is pregnant, some man enjoyed the use of her reproductive system in most cases.



"I'm gonna keep swinging my baby lasso til I catch me a man!"

Philip Francis Queeg: If the woman is pregnant, some man enjoyed the use of her reproductive system in most cases.

Well, there was this one time...

DozeNutz: Because its not a person? It has the DNA of a person

So do your skin cells

There's a war on religion? Where do I enlist?

Will their be hats?

Because I've got a God Helmet

keylock71: theorellior: OgreMagi: I respectfully point you to the state of Massachusetts.

I dunno, I've been here 4 years and people are a lot thinner than in Texas.


It's one of the thinnest and most educated and I think that was OgreMagi's point. Could be wrong, though.

[www.uscollegesearch.org image 640x502]

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 640x505]

I was referring to the late Senator Kennedy.

DozeNutz: I hope you like sharing consciences with the likes of Hitler and Stalin though.

DozeNutz: Theaetetus: DozeNutz:If you asked a person that would have been aborted in the womb after he was born if they wished they were aborted, I'd bet they choose life. Its better to have lived than not have lived at all amirite? Who cares if you are poor or disenfranchised, life is a gift. There is always someone worse off, and its always better to be living than to be dead IMO.

And? If you asked me whether I'd like to have a billion dollars, I'd say yes. Therefore, I have a right to it?

Your arguments are farking dumb. A billion dollars? cmon man, that is a lame ass analogy. I hope you like sharing consciences with the likes of Hitler and Stalin though.

And that is how the mind of an alt-troll works. Playing a character is SO fun!

DozeNutz: I abhor abortion, its murdering little babies.


THEN DON'T FARKING GET ONE

HellRaisingHoosier
It's the farking 21st Century! I mean, why are we still debating contraception when we still have huge wealth disparity in the country that needs to be addressed.

psssshhhh... caring about increasingly massive income inequality is so one hundred years ago. (new window)

DORMAMU
Actually it wasnt.

It was more of a divergent virw about whether states could override the federal government. When lincoln was electe president, he won mostly in the north. The south then felt more isolated because lincoln didnt carry a single south state (i think).

The emancipation proclimation added fuel.

This is what bitter, ignorant, southern revisionists actually believe!

DozeNutz
abortionherpderpmurderderpderpbabies

I know you're not the only one who's off topic, but why are you trying to start a big abortion debate in this thread? Bored? Drunk? Feeling the need to be outraged?

If you asked a person that would have been aborted in the womb after he was born if they wished they were aborted, I'd bet they choose life.

Don't be so sure once they find out you're the father.

/I keed!
//but your argument still sucks
///not many people really do wish they'd never been born, so abortion is murder? Really? That's your argument?

Amagi: Must be nice to be that blissfully ignorant?

Dude, I'm sorry that your ex-wife got custody. Maybe you should have hired a lawyer, instead of relying on the stuff you read on that angry-ex-husbands' website.

theorellior: Zerochance: Back in my days, they used Bayer Aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly.

O.o

He's making a "keep your legs shut, women" comment - joking that women "back in his day" held a Bayer Aspiring (a small pill) between their knees, which would necessitate keeping their knees tightly together.

He's a gibbering idiot.

I really don't see how the Republican establishment thinks this is a good battle for them to fight. It's not like they're going to bring more evangelical votes in by doing this, but they sure as hell may push the female vote away.

theorellior: Magorn: Griswold v. Connecticut is at the door, says its got a heaping helping of biatchslap for the GOP

I was wondering whether anyone would mention Griswold. It's one of the court cases where that evil, non-Constitutional right to privacy is mentioned by the SCOTUS.

More or less the first to articulate it in precisely that fashion (though the decision itself cites Skinner (no state sterilization of prisoners) and a few others as precedent) and a good deal of the decision was driven by the Court's revulsion at the long arm of the law reaching all the way into what they felt was the most intimate and private of relationships and decisions

Zerochance: theorellior: Zerochance: Back in my days, they used Bayer Aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly.

O.o

Here is the clip of the statements, linked from the Maddow Blog:

Link

I asked a co worker here who's in her late 50's if she ever heard of this. She had but couldn't figure out how it was supposed to work

So... I hope in all the herp de derp they ponder what to tell victims of rape and incest that end up pregnant.

Because all the aspirin in the world isn't going to fix that.

Lou Brown: I really don't see how the Republican establishment thinks this is a good battle for them to fight. It's not like they're going to bring more evangelical votes in by doing this, but they sure as hell may push the female vote away.

Considering the extreme majority of women use or have used or plan to use the pill, yes.

patrick767: ///not many people really do wish they'd never been born...

Well, not once they've gotten past the 15-16 year old angsty stage of development.

/It's so unfair! You won't let me have another Justin Bieber t-shirt. I wish I'd never been born!

It's good to know the circus is back in town. Or in the case of Congress, the circus never left town. Don't the Republicans know that if women can't get access to contraception they'll have no choice but to become lesbians.

Ant: DozeNutz: Ok, well, does the unborn have a choice?

[www.advancedfertility.com image 290x268]

Me: Hey, Blastocyst, what do you think about this?

Blastocyst: ...

Me: Surely you have something to say?

Blastocyst: ...

Nope. The cluster of 100 cells (that pro-lifers would have you believe is an actual person) has no opinion on this

sheeit, how are you talking to a blastocyst? Most women don't even know they're preggo when it's at that stage.

OgreMagi: SisterMaryElephant: Dear GOP,

I am a slut. A big farking slut. I'll fark just about anything. I had a babby at 18, and I'm really sorry to say that I didn't go on welfare and pop out more babies.

I had an abortion at 23? 24? somewhere around there.

I'm wondering where my SCARLETT A should be placed? Does it go in the middle of my forehead, the side, or on my cheek. Do I need more than one? Do you sell them in bulk, cuz I plan to keep on farking.

Oh, and what should I do with all these pesky little babbies you wanted?

Sincerely,
Your friendly slutty neighborhood tease (yeah, I wear shorts outside, too)

Pictures or GTFO.

Meh, she's apparently from Alaska. I have complete faith in her sluttiness.

"In honor of your 'Birth Control Hearing', we're having a hearing on whether mandated colonoscopies should be scheduled twice a year or once a month, and whether we should also mandate circumcision. I'm afraid no men are qualified to take part."

/Problem solved.

runwiz: It's good to know the circus is back in town. Or in the case of Congress, the circus never left town. Don't the Republicans know that if women can't get access to contraception they'll have no choice but to become lesbians.

randomjsa: Bwahaha, oh wow, so predictable.

So this is the bald face lie that liberals are going to perpetuate on people who don't know better?

This was not a hearing on contraception. At all. Period. It was a hearing on whether Obama had the Constitutional authority to do what he did last week.


How is a bishop an expert on constitutionality? How many law professors and scholars were present?

Gonz: I'm really coming around to the belief that Obama truly is trolling the GOP. They're so predictably reactionary that all he has to do is state an opinion and watch him oppose it.

I can totally picture Biden walking into the Oval Office and saying something along the line of "I know I owe you $5 from the payroll tax cut, but double or nothing says you can't get 'em to speak out against women's access to birth control."

"I just realized that roughly one tenth of the people in the US would suffocate themselves if Obama gave a speech in favor of oxygen." - Bruce Padget

Churches aren't being forced to pay for reproductive care and need not subscribe to an insurance plan that offers it. Church affiliated organizations (notably hospitals and charities) aren't being forced to pay for reproductive care, they must simply subscribe to a plan that does for which the insurance company picks up the tab. The choice to use the care is left to the individual.

In what way is this at all controversial?

PsiChick: "In honor of your 'Birth Control Hearing', we're having a hearing on whether mandated colonoscopies should be scheduled twice a year or once a month, and whether we should also mandate circumcision. I'm afraid no men are qualified to take part."

/Problem solved.

women have colons