Babwa Wawa: The data point is meaningless without data about the relative cost of living.

No.

mavexe: Babwa Wawa: The data point is meaningless without data about the relative cost of living.

No.

Sort of.

But they can only see 1/4 the screen.

Babwa Wawa: The data point is meaningless without data about the relative cost of living.

That's what I came into say.

Stating a dollar-per-hour amount doesn't tell you a whole lot without knowing the actual buying power of that salary in the local economy.

Certainly Chinese workers are paid very little, but I suspect that the cost of food, housing, clothing, etc. is much lower than, say, in South Korea or the US.

Need to see data that normalizes wages to cost of living.

It probably cost 4x as much to live in SK than it does in China.

Korean chicks are also 4x hotter than Chinese chicks.

MindStalker: It probably cost 4x as much to live in SK than it does in China.

That's because it's one of those situations where it's actually 4x better.

Now the Koreans are gonna get a massive pay-cut.

Why does subby hate Korean workers?

jcpallitto: But they can only see 1/4 the screen.

They should open their eyes more.

Babwa Wawa: mavexe: Babwa Wawa: The data point is meaningless without data about the relative cost of living.

No.

If all you're testing is whether the device can be built at a profit while paying higher wages, then yeah, it does mean something. But it doesn't tell you whether the wage is unfair.

For example, $25k is a living wage in Idaho, but not Boston.

Does that mean someone making $100k in Boston ISN'T making 4 times more than the guy in Boise making $25k?

So how can I be sure to buy an iPad made in Worst Korea rather than one made in China? Do I open every box at Best Buy and look on the back?

so they can pay 4x the salary in one country, but somehow they all sell for the same price, regardless of country of origin?

Well duh. The Chinese are making them, so of course they should get a discount. Lower cost on shipping too.

/Reading the article takes the fun out

If you're too dense to realize that cost of living is a key metric when determining what a fair living wage is, then there's really nothing to talk about here.

...Except for the fact that all the iPads cost the same, regardless of where they're made.

Great_Milenko: so they can pay 4x the salary in one country, but somehow they all sell for the same price, regardless of country of origin?

That's how it works.
Its not that they don't make em here because it would be too expensive to sell, its because they get to keep all the change while selling at an equivalent price.

We think paying $500 for a device that costs $50 is a bargain. The rest goes to overhead.

Babwa Wawa: If all you're testing is whether the device can be built sold at a profit while paying higher wages, then yeah, it does mean something

The build price is the build price, the question is, can you get someone to buy it for more than the build price.

Babwa Wawa: Quantumbunny: Babwa Wawa: mavexe: Babwa Wawa: The data point is meaningless without data about the relative cost of living.

No.

If all you're testing is whether the device can be built at a profit while paying higher wages, then yeah, it does mean something. But it doesn't tell you whether the wage is unfair.

For example, $25k is a living wage in Idaho, but not Boston.

Does that mean someone making $100k in Boston ISN'T making 4 times more than the guy in Boise making $25k?

Derpy!

If you're too dense to realize that cost of living is a key metric when determining what a fair living wage is, then there's really nothing to talk about here.

I'm not being derpy. I'm claiming math is math. That math is immutable. If you care so significantly about context that you overlook the fact that 100 is 4 times as much as 25, you are the one not getting it.

(In the following examples, please realize the actual numbers are pulled out of my ass. I'm not being obtuse, just too lazy to look up actual numbers)

I doubt pennies a day could ever be considered a "fair" living wage to us regardless of location given the amount those who pay those salaries make and the fact that it's companies here paying those salaries. Whether Apple through Foxconn pays 10x the normal Chinese wage in China, it's still 1/100 of minimum wage here.

The fact it pays 1/25 of minimum wage here in South Korea is the same issue. It's still a significant fraction of minimum wage here, and the company paying (Apple via Foxconn) could afford to pay them what we consider living wages here.

So which is more relevant? Paying 10x the amount of a similar job at another company in the same location, or paying 1/100 of what they'd be legally required to pay here?

It's all relevant, but you are just picking and choosing context while ignoring the fact that the math is fact regardless of the context you're choosing.

"Apple's supply chain is once again in the crosshairs, after a South Korean newspaper today reported that Chinese factory workers are paid substantially less than their counterparts elsewhere around the world"

Well, duh! That's the reason why jobs get shifted to countries where you pay less.

Babwa Wawa: Living wage is not an absolute number. A living wage in China is something different than a living wage in South Korea, which is different than Tokyo, San Francisco, and New York.

In practical terms tho it still means that one man barely gets a plate of cabbage a the end of the day while another gorges himself on steak. Workers rights, safety, public health and general well being of the nation all have to suffer a loss for the difference to balance out.

The west is taking advantage of conditions that it would refuse to put up with in its own house.

Are Chinese factory workers getting just $8 for every iPad sale?

No. That might be how much the workers assembling the iPad itself are getting. However, there's also other workers in China getting paid nearly nothing for manufacturing the tools and components that go into iPad production.

Besides they're getting nothing for any sale. If the iPads sit in a warehouse, they still get paid for manufacturing them.

Quantumbunny: It's still a significant fraction of minimum wage here, and the company paying (Apple via Foxconn) could afford to pay them what we consider living wages here.

Not quite. If they paid overseas manufacturing what's considered a living wage here, the price of the goods would go up. Since people here would never dream of curtailing consumption, nor would the company give up significant margins, it would essentially increase the baseline "living wage," expected here. You'd end up with an disparity again.

You say Apple could afford if because Apple's rolling in money, but they're rolling in money because they chose not to.

/That's not to say there's not a better balance than we have now
//But it's not quite as easy of a fix as you make it out to be

Apple was responsible for the Crimean war, too.

Babwa Wawa: The data point is meaningless without data about the relative cost of living.

"Miss Chen" to protect her identity, described forced overtime and the inability to receive benefits and sick days.

"Everyday is like: I get off from work and I go to bed. I get up in the morning, and I go to work. It is my daily routine and I almost feel like an animal."

That enough perspective for you?

StrangeQ: "Everyday is like: I get off from work and I go to bed. I get up in the morning, and I go to work. It is my daily routine and I almost feel like an animal."

That enough perspective for you?

First, no one is arguing that Chinese workers aren't being exploited. That's not the issue. The issue isn't whether or not Chinese workers are being paid a fair wage - the issue is how we even figure out what a fair wage is in the first place. And local cost of living certainly factors in to that.

Secondly, even if the argument were about exploitation of workers (which it's not), the quote you just posted wouldn't really make that argument. Plenty of Americans work jobs that are mindless, repetitive, and mundane. Plenty of Americans work 12-hour shifts. Some jobs are like that. Doesn't necessarily mean that the job is exploitative - that depends on compensation, benefits, breaks and other factors.

This article fails to address the penis size to labor wage ratio.

Babwa Wawa: way south: In practical terms tho it still means that one man barely gets a plate of cabbage a the end of the day while another gorges himself on steak.

I don't think any line worker in question here is eating steak.

way south: The west is taking advantage of conditions that it would refuse to put up with in its own house.

I agree; it's just that this particular metric is irrelevant to making that case.

I think it is relevant because we have to ask what kind of life are these people living.
A Chinese salary would be a living wage inside the US if your entire community accepted absolute poverty as a way of life.
The overall well being of the people is relative to their salary. The difference has to be made up somehow. The cost of living is lower because of all what has been left out of their lives.

If we don't put that into context, we dont understand the scale of the problem.

way south: The cost of living is lower because of all what has been left out of their lives.

No, the cost of living is lower because the price of basic goods is lower.

When we talk about cost-of-living, we're not talking about a subjective experience of quality of life (which you seem to be talking about). We are talking about a specific type of economic measure with a definite meaning.

caddisfly: Um, has anyone mentioned that the Chinese government artificially manipulates the value of the Yuan?

Wait... the US doesn't manipulate the dollar? they may use a different mechanism but I would say yes they do.

Isn't there a difference in what the korean workers and the chinese workers do for the iPad. I always assumed that the chinese factories did the final assembly and the korean suppliers are the ones that make most of the components. IE, its the korean workers that are manufacturing the processors, screens, etc. If that's the case this is very different work. One is screwing things together (chinese), the other is somewhat technical and might even require "clean room" type conditions.

To all you apple hipsters: Enjoy your slavery produced iPhone/iPad.


/Just remember finish your vegetables there's someone starving in China.

//snark

Babwa Wawa: If you have no idea what it costs for food and shelter, you lack the context necessary to determine whether someone is underpaid.

It doesn't sound like these workers are receiving an equivalent quality of food, housing or benefits in a work environment so far below the par when compared with other nations. It might be good money in a depressed regional economy, but most westerners wouldn't give up their current life styles to live like this.

I don't think we need a calculator to declare this demeaning work for shiat pay.

sparkeyjames: To all you apple hipsters: Enjoy your slavery produced iPhone/iPad.

You think Apple is the only company taking advantage of wage slaves?

/Flip that PC over, read the labels, and take care to polish off your greens too.

Chinese peeps be so dum!

OK, all farking around aside, this is a damned shame. And considering the cost of apple products, I don't know why anybody would buy an apple product.


/Using a MacBook Pro at work.....

"Everyday is like: I get off from work and I go to bed. I get up in the morning, and I go to work. It is my daily routine and I almost feel like an animal."

Welcome to the real world Missy.

How much per iPad are the Apple employees paid?

pup.socket: How much per iPad are the Apple employees paid?

Just hit the google to answer that. Apple has about 60,000 full time employees, and supposedly sold about 40 million iPads in 2011. So if we assume that the average Apple salary is $100,000, we get 6 billion divided by 40 million, or $150 per iPad.