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(USA Today)   The demographics of the home-schooled continue to evolve and grow, from religious nutballs and the big ol' teeth in the past to the modern-day secular helo-mommy who never wants her precious baby out of her sight   (usatoday.com) divider line 344
    More: Interesting, National Center for Education Statistics, school ages, Virginia Department of Education, basic skills, Asbury Park, demographics, Heather Kirchner, Christine Bodwitch  
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6947 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2012 at 12:14 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-15 05:51:14 PM  

loonatic112358: BurnShrike: I'm not against home schooling, but the biggest problem with it is that you can't teach what you don't know. Or to put it another way, a stupid ignorant SOB is going to have very limited success preparing their crotch fruit for the real world. A school teacher is someone who you can know has at least a passing knowledge on their subject.

BTW, I disagree on a teacher always knowing their subject, sadly too often there are people with education degrees who aren't fit to teach a dog to beg.


I never said they were good at their subject, just that they had a passing knowledge of it. I know just how many stupid and completely incompetent educators there are out there. Unfortunately the union makes firing them difficult, so the easiest way to get them out of the classroom is to promote them. Ever meet a principal or vice principal you thought was just a royal farktard? Now you know why. (I'm not saying all principals or VPs are farktards-- there are some really amazing ones, but there are more than a few who are completely incompetent to do their job)
 
2012-02-15 05:53:23 PM  
I know a young lady who was "home-schooled" through her junior year of high school for the sole purpose of staying home to care for her 5 younger siblings while Mom was at work - free day care! Dad (divorced from Mom for several years and not the father of the 5 younger siblings) finally raised enough of a stink with the courts that she got to live with Dad and go to school. She may be unique but she tested well enough that she only needed a few credits in order to graduate, had no social problems and got on extremely well, then went on to college and graduated with honors. She has apparently overcome the fact that she was home-schooled with herself as teacher. Also taught her siblings. But no matter how well she has done, Mom is still a skank.
 
2012-02-15 05:56:40 PM  

jst3p: BurnShrike: loonatic112358: So how many of you against homeschooling have had a kid go all the way through public schooling

I'm not against home schooling, but the biggest problem with it is that you can't teach what you don't know. Or to put it another way, a stupid ignorant SOB is going to have very limited success preparing their crotch fruit for the real world. A school teacher is someone who you can know has at least a passing knowledge on their subject.

I take a middle of the road approach. My kids go to public school. I know it isn't the best but I teach them important stuff all the time.

Fortunately I have pretty bright kids. I know all parents think that but mine are documented. We have always strongly emphasis reading and both my kids read far above grade level. This makes it pretty easy to learn anything they are interested in and they have genuinely curious minds. My seven year old has better google-fu than most adults I know that aren't in IT.

My goal is to push them, support them and feed them (intellectually). I have no doubt they will learn far more at home than in school even if they aren't home schooled.


Pfft. All that just to compensate for not having a piano... that's sad, man.
 
2012-02-15 05:57:32 PM  
I was a home-schooled only child. Enrolling in a rural high-school after travelling eleven months of the year with my parents my entire childhood was a complete shock. I'm in my thirties now and still feel socially stunted in some ways. I had to spend a lot of time learning how to relate to other people and deal with issues that are common when groups of people socialize. Parents who choose to home-school often say "Oh, little Johnny spends lots of time socializing, he'll be fine" but they don't realize that that time is all supervised by adults, the kids never act the same way they would if it were just children. I feel I had a great education and an amazing childhood travelling but I would have rather been a normal kid.
 
2012-02-15 06:01:46 PM  

Haplo127x: I was a home-schooled only child. Enrolling in a rural high-school after travelling eleven months of the year with my parents my entire childhood was a complete shock. I'm in my thirties now and still feel socially stunted in some ways. I had to spend a lot of time learning how to relate to other people and deal with issues that are common when groups of people socialize. Parents who choose to home-school often say "Oh, little Johnny spends lots of time socializing, he'll be fine" but they don't realize that that time is all supervised by adults, the kids never act the same way they would if it were just children. I feel I had a great education and an amazing childhood travelling but I would have rather been a normal kid.


the problem may be the fact you were traveling. Did you ever spend time with anykids your own age, or were you isolated?
 
2012-02-15 06:02:46 PM  
Public Schooling Pros:

Socialising with people from outside the circle of kids that your parents would ever let you met on their arranged play dates;
Well rounded secular curriculum, allowing for other instruction (e.g., religious) in your own time;
After school facilities and stuff
Teachers have to have passed at least a basic skills test, and have extensive experience in teaching to a wide range of abilities and ages.

Public School Cons:

Teachers spend a lot of their time lion-taming in the class-room
Large class size so little scope for individualised lesson plans
Lower monitoring of progress so kids can fall behind without the teacher noticing it, especially if the child hides this (embarrassment, lack of interest in topic, etc)
High chance of a dud teacher

Home-Schooling Pros:

Individualised attention
High level of progress monitoring
More chance to catch up on areas that are weak

Home-schooling cons:

Much less opportunity to experience kids from outside the social circle of your parents
The teacher is learning as she/he goes, usually just enough to stay on top of the lessons. Not a problem in junior years, but can be hard in senior courses where some level of expertise is needed
High opportunity for "idiosyncratic" lessons which teach material that is plainly and deliberately wrong

I haven't read through the thread above, so I'm sure I've missed a few.
 
2012-02-15 06:03:30 PM  
It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.
 
2012-02-15 06:07:36 PM  

ansius:
Public School Cons:

Teachers spend a lot of their time lion-taming in the class-room
Large class size so little scope for individualised lesson plans
Lower monitoring of progress so kids can fall behind without the teacher noticing it, especially if the child hides this (embarrassment, lack of interest in topic, etc)
High chance of a dud teacher
High chance of teacher farking your child 3 times in the back of a Hyundai

I haven't read through the thread above, so I'm sure I've missed a few.


FTFY
You don't have to read the thread to know that one. The Main Page does just fine.
 
2012-02-15 06:08:46 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.


I wasn't going to bother with this point since we're so deep into the thread, but homeschooling does seem like a Randian kind of "fark you, I got mine."

We need an educate populace. Everyone benefits. It's better to spend ten dollars on education than 100 on incarceration.
 
2012-02-15 06:23:59 PM  

gimmegimme: The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.

I wasn't going to bother with this point since we're so deep into the thread, but homeschooling does seem like a Randian kind of "fark you, I got mine."



In a system this broken, it isn't necessarily wise to just go with the flow out of some misguided sense of equality.
 
2012-02-15 06:42:19 PM  

loonatic112358: Haplo127x: I was a home-schooled only child. Enrolling in a rural high-school after travelling eleven months of the year with my parents my entire childhood was a complete shock. I'm in my thirties now and still feel socially stunted in some ways. I had to spend a lot of time learning how to relate to other people and deal with issues that are common when groups of people socialize. Parents who choose to home-school often say "Oh, little Johnny spends lots of time socializing, he'll be fine" but they don't realize that that time is all supervised by adults, the kids never act the same way they would if it were just children. I feel I had a great education and an amazing childhood travelling but I would have rather been a normal kid.

the problem may be the fact you were traveling. Did you ever spend time with anykids your own age, or were you isolated?


When they could, we were only "home" for about 1-2 months a year. They tried to get me involved in kids programs at museums, art galleries, etc. but those were usually just a couple of days here and there, all of it under parental supervision. It's strange but I kind of feel like I fit better here on FARK, (even though I'm not a huge poster) than I have anywhere else. That's so depressing I am going to go start drinking now.
 
2012-02-15 06:53:50 PM  

Haplo127x: It's strange but I kind of feel like I fit better here on FARK, (even though I'm not a huge poster) than I have anywhere else. That's so depressing I am going to go start drinking now.


Well if you posted more, we'd have a better chance to ostracize you.

But seriously, why is it depressing? Don't try and judge it. Just be thankful that you've found some comfort from it.
 
2012-02-15 07:02:03 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.


We funnel plenty of money into the education system in this country. Student education is underfunded. Between federal, state, and local programs that waste money but don't educate, ridiculous reporting requirements that take excess staff but educate no one, and the huge amounts of money that go into the coffers of teachers unions, text book companies and the over-use of inappropriate technology; more of the money that goes to education is wasted than is used to educate.
 
2012-02-15 07:09:02 PM  
I was homeschooled through a charter school in southern california.

I had to meet with my "teacher" for an hour every month to show what I had been working on and discuss the following month. If I had any major issues she would help explain, or help set me up with a tutor to help. The charter school provided the textbooks, workbooks and sample curriculum. I used that as a base structure but set the majority of my curriculum myself. I picked most of the books I read, and most of the essays I wrote.

I started this in the 7th grade. I passed the CHSPE two years later (I think i was 15?) after skipping into 8th grade and doing an accelerated workload to get to the second semester of 10th. I finished out the last 2 years of classes for shiats and giggles while I pursued other interests.

Even with the accelerated workload I would only end up pulling my school books out the last weekend before my meeting. I'd lock myself in my room for 1-2 days and have it all done.

If I didn't understand how to do something (my parents were worthless with math) I looked it up on the internet or backtracked from the answer book till it made sense. The night before my last meeting I made a pot of coffee and crammed through 4 units of Algebra 2 in one sitting.

Homeschooling isn't for everyone, but it was a breeze for me. In retrospect, the only downside was that I wasn't able to socialize much with people my own age. You are forced to skip over the cute/awkward flirt/date/kiss male/female interaction when you're 16 and your social circle is comprised of people 6-10 years older than you.

I wouldn't trade it tho, it was great.

/end biography
 
2012-02-15 07:16:28 PM  

Stile4aly: I'm in favor of strict standards for homeschooling including that parents demonstrate an ability to teach and that they use state approved materials


What makes you think this doesn't exist? I remember my mom re-applying every year for... I forget what it's called, exactly. Homeschooling license, permit, whatever you want to call it. I graduated from [Familyname] Academy. Not because it looked good, but because that was where I legally went to school. I was taught using a curriculum developed for homeschooling. No, it wasn't the same thing used in public schools, but it was a state approved curriculum. Was I homeschooled for religious reasons? Sure, I won't deny that. But it really wasn't a big part of my schooling, it pretty much stayed a part of my religious schooling (much like what many public taught kids go through, you have school and Sunday school). This myth of parents pulling their kids out of the Evil Public School and making up lessons that consist of God, God, and More God is just that, a myth. If it wasn't, homeschooled kids wouldn't be able to make it outside of their homes. I'm not talking about not playing well with others, I mean they couldn't operate in the world on a very basic level.

/If my education was nothing but reading the bible, I wouldn't be here right now.
 
2012-02-15 07:22:24 PM  

Phosphorus: In retrospect, the only downside was that I wasn't able to socialize much with people my own age. You are forced to skip over the cute/awkward flirt/date/kiss male/female interaction when you're 16 and your social circle is comprised of people 6-10 years older than you.


You know, I keep forgetting to mention this, but it's exactly right. I say I was a social retard, but that's not entirely true. I was completely comfortable around adults at a fairly young age, it was kids I didn't really get. When I went to college I worked well with my instructors, but didn't really identify much with my classmates. I didn't so much not develop social skills as much as I skipped the late teen social scene. It held me back for a few years in college and soon after I graduated, but the more I see and the more I look back the less I think I really missed.
 
2012-02-15 07:22:44 PM  

Shazam999: GT_bike: gimmegimme: Okay...the life expectancy was once in the fifties in this country. There was once a time before Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. At one point, doctors only had the option to give you an aspirin and wish you luck.

Um...things are a little bit more complicated now.

Yeah the complicated internet makes it hard to find information, books, videos, news, commentary, updated scientific theory, studies and the like from home. My daughter is learning Chinese this year and uses Skype to interact with kids in China.

The problem with the internet is that you need a very, very, very, very good BS filter, and I really don't think yours is up to task.

Skyping with kids from China? So... what? My kid's class has kids from China (holy CRAP!). She gets to talk to them all the time.

It's apparently a terrible thing for a kids to learn far away from the Lord of the Flies daycare world that is public school?

Jesus Christ on a stick, LOLWUT?


Most classic literature is downloadable for free in the public domain. They aren't using wikipedia for math or science you dolt! There are real schools not religious ones which are online. There are any number of full language immersion schools here. Are the Chinese kids in your kid's school there to teach them Chinese conversation or are they just students whose parents are here working? I already speak 4 languages and have taught them to her but Chinese isn't one one of them. She wanted another challenge.

My comment about Lord of the Flies is that the classroom tends to reflect the lowered standards where the stupid kids rule the classroom for a good portion of the day.
 
2012-02-15 07:35:32 PM  

Mr. Breeze: gimmegimme: The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.

I wasn't going to bother with this point since we're so deep into the thread, but homeschooling does seem like a Randian kind of "fark you, I got mine."



In a system this broken, it isn't necessarily wise to just go with the flow out of some misguided sense of equality.


Who is suggesting going with the flow? How is the sense of equality misguided? Do you even think before you type? When something as important as the education system is broken, then you work to change the system. YOU. WORK. TO CHANGE. THE SYSTEM.
 
2012-02-15 07:41:06 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Mr. Breeze: gimmegimme: The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.

I wasn't going to bother with this point since we're so deep into the thread, but homeschooling does seem like a Randian kind of "fark you, I got mine."



In a system this broken, it isn't necessarily wise to just go with the flow out of some misguided sense of equality.

Who is suggesting going with the flow? How is the sense of equality misguided? Do you even think before you type? When something as important as the education system is broken, then you work to change the system. YOU. WORK. TO CHANGE. THE SYSTEM.


Sorry bud. Didn't mean to get you riled up. You're "fark you, I got mine" comment set me of because you made it sound like home schoolers are selfish.

However, I'll be damned if I'm going to force my child through said broke ass system while politicians fight over how to make it better (making it worse in the process.) Especially if better options exist. If they fix the system, I'll gladly embrace it.
 
2012-02-15 08:00:06 PM  

Kittypie070: i.imgur.com


Y'all are slippin mightily, Fark'!!


How old is that now? When was the original thread?
 
2012-02-15 08:17:17 PM  
Killer Cars Quote 2011-10-06 03:27:23 PM
There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House's National Security Council, several current and former officials said. Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate.

I read that in the same voice as the Law & Order introduction, and felt mildly concerned. Then, I read it again in Morgan Freeman's voice and felt better.


Dammit, I was feeling morally outraged until you said that. Now I am all peaceful and stuff again....
 
2012-02-15 08:36:40 PM  

Fano: If they learned probability and statistics


Why would states want students to learn that? Someone has to buy all those lottery tickets.
 
2012-02-15 08:39:50 PM  
I use our public school as day-care. I supplement educate my kids at home. There is no challenge in the public school classes. The teachers spend all day giving tips to pass the ridiculous standardized test. Although he is in the GT program, I still get the feeling they are catering to the lowest common denominator in his "regular" classes. For example, in Health class they were discussing the cardiovascular system and heart health. My son asked the teacher what the atrial and ventricular septums were made of. She just stared at him. He clarified that he meant the wall between the chambers. She said, "Well, heart tissue, of course!" He just let it go because she obviously had NO idea. This is seventh grade, BTW, not second. He just wondered if there was a layer of cartilage or something there-you know, wanted to discuss the topic rather than just stare at the power point that was directed at low functioning third graders. SSSSIIIIGGGGHHH
 
2012-02-15 09:18:54 PM  

Elvis_Bogart: gimmegimme: They need to be certified to make sure they're not ruining their child's life...right?

Certified by who? The Teachers Union? If that's the case, a retired Harvard Professor wouldn't be "good" enough. (Unless he's still paying Union dues)

If Home schoolers are such chumps, then why do they always seem to be over-represented in spelling bees?

Don't they have to pass state competency tests like every one else?

I know, I know...if it isn't from The Government it's crap.


Here's the BIG problem with home schooling: socialization - in particular, sexual socialization. Home schooled kids never have the opportunity to learn about the more interesting variations in sexual pleasures, such as eating the public school teacher's cum from a spoon, being blind-folded, and having cockroaches puit on their face.
 
2012-02-15 09:41:35 PM  
I am almost certain I met the infamous home school girl here in Orlando the other day. I don't even remember the original farker who claimed that she was his fiancee/wife.. but whoever it was, I'm 98% sure I saw her at Publix.


/CSB
 
2012-02-15 09:42:15 PM  
Basically schools teach you to be either a little bullying shiathead or a misanthrope on low boil. Also how to eye roll. No thanks.
 
2012-02-15 09:47:51 PM  

schubie: Basically schools teach you to be either a little bullying shiathead or a misanthrope on low boil. Also how to eye roll. No thanks.


Just say, "We live in a democracy. We have public schools worth attending." and move along. You do not want to suggest that America's public school system is as dilapidated as the rest of its infrastructure. Just wave a flag and teach your kids science, geography and art privately, away from suspicious eyes.
 
2012-02-15 10:45:45 PM  

gimmegimme: I would be fine with homeschooling if parents could demonstrate they can, for example, still do calculus. So many Americans are unable to figure out the change without looking at the register or to find Iraq on a world map...what percentage of parents know what they're talking about?

They need to be certified to make sure they're not ruining their child's life...right?


87% of the kids who graduate from my cities public school system are not proficient at math.

If your child is about to be expelled for say joining a gang and assaulting other students on campus....in my town you can write a letter to the administration telling them you are home schooling the kid. The record of expulsion is erased and your kid gets to sit home all day watching TV. Then you get to re-enroll him the next school year.

I have a good friend who home schools, he is very normal. His kids are very normal. Except the 6 year old is a competent dirt bike rider like his older sister....which is odd in an urban neighborhood like we live in.

I cannot do calculus anymore. I couldn't the year I entered structural design and analysis classes. I scored in the 98th percentile for four consecutive semesters of SDAA. So im guessing if I wanted to teach my kids calculus for some reason I could get up to speed again in about the same amount of time.

Look we all know that in some areas the public schools are a death sentence for your childs future. If someone wants to teach their kids at home in that environment, let them, it cannot possible be worse.
 
2012-02-15 10:53:13 PM  
How Our Schools Create Sheeple
Why most Americans are unable to perceive
and protest America's slide into fascism.
By John Kaminski

In 1896 the famous John Dewey, then at the University of Chicago, said that independent, self-reliant people were a counter-productive anachronism in the collective society of the future. In modern society, said Dewey, people would be defined by their associations"not by their own individual accomplishments. In such a world people who read too well or too early are dangerous because they become privately empowered, they know too much, and know how to find out what they don,t know by themselves, without consulting experts. -- Kurt Johmann, quoting John Taylor Gatto

The question on the minds of many people with consciences who are so aghast at the sudden savagry of the new terror-based policies of the U.S. goverment is how has the American public so silently and willingly acquiesced to the dishonest and murderous attitudes of George W. Bush and his criminal oil cartel.

The hypnotic power of television is of course one main component of the fearful powerlessness that now grips the American populace and has the rest of the world cringing in fear about where the power elite's military monster will strike next. That is a subject for another time.

The real credit for this continuing American coma belongs to something that has been right in front of our eyes all the time. It's something we have supported, spent our money on, and prayed for, something we have participated in ourselves.

The reason Bush has been able to get away with lie after lie in his drive to obliterate our Constitution and install himself as dictator of the world is our public school system. What they did to all of us is directly related to what is happening now in the world.

This connection becomes perfectly obvious when you read Kurt Johmann's essay, "Unschooling: Self-directed learning is best," on his website ( http://www.johmann.net/ )

Johmann, a software developer who lives in Florida, quotes John Taylor Gatto, an award-winning teacher who taught in New York City government schools for 26 years and quit teaching in 1991 "so he wouldn't harm any more children." Gatto, author of "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling," and other books investigating the fallacies of public education, insists American public schools teach a hidden curriculum of seven lessons:

1. Confusion. Gatto notes several things contributing to what he calls the lesson of confusion, including: a lack of subject-related context for what is taught; too many unrelated facts and unrelated subjects; a lack of meaning and critical thinking about what is taught.

About this lack of critical thinking Gatto says: "Few teachers would dare to teach the tools whereby dogmas of a school or a teacher could be criticized, since everything must be accepted."

With this kind of training, how would it be possible for a kid to know what valuable things are NOT in public school curricula? And by extension, how would it be possible for that same adult to discern that what her leaders tell her about American history bears little resemblance to what happened to the victims of those who wrote the histories?

2. Class position. Gatto points to the way students are kept in the same class by age, and, within this age classification, further classified and separated depending on how the students have done schoolwise (for example, classification into so-called gifted classes).

About this lesson Gatto says: "That's the real lesson of any rigged competition like school. You come to know your place."

As someone who has suffered from this myself, you have to ask how many learning opportunities are lost because children are not properly identified using rigidly mechanistic criteria.

3. Indifference. For this lesson Gatto is referring to the effects of the ringing bell that announces the end of the current class and the need of the student to drop whatever she is doing and proceed to the next class where a different teacher and subject await her.

About bells Gatto says: "Indeed, the lesson of bells is that no work is worth finishing, so why care too deeply about anything?"

And as far as educational evolution goes in kids, this rigidity causes children to assign equal value to all classes, say math and gym, without regard to their relative importance.

4. Emotional dependency. This lesson results from students having to submit to the designated authority, the teacher, regarding their personal desires during class time. As Gatto says: "By stars and red checks, smiles and frowns, prizes, honors, and disgraces, I teach kids to surrender their will to the predestined chain of command."

By the time this learned tendency reaches adulthood, it prevents many people from realizing there may be more qualified candidates other than the two corporate-approved rivals for any given office.

5. Intellectual dependency. This lesson is similar to the lesson of emotional dependency, since both lessons teach students submission to the designated authority. In the case of the lesson of intellectual dependency, the students specifically learn submission to establishment authorities, including the teacher, on intellectual matters.

This definitely discourages thinking "outside the box" when alternatives are presented to any given problem.

As Gatto says: "Successful children do the thinking I assign them with a minimum of resistance and a decent show of enthusiasm. Of the millions of things of value to study, I decide what few we have time for, or actually it is decided by my faceless employers. Bad kids fight this, of course, even though they lack the concepts to know what they are fighting, struggling to make decisions for themselves about what they will learn and when they will learn it. How can we allow that and survive as schoolteachers? Fortunately [Gatto is being ironic] there are tested procedures to break the will of those who resist "

6. Provisional self-esteem. As Gatto says: "The lesson of report cards, grades, and tests is that children should not trust themselves or their parents but should instead rely on the evaluation of certified officials. People need to be told what they are worth."

As a result, when people get older, they may not be able to determine the worth of a given activity without someone whose authority they covet approving their decision. Put more simply, they may not be able to think for themselves.

7. One cannot hide. By this lesson Gatto means the effect that constant surveillance has on students as they are watched by teachers and other school employees. About the underlying reason for this surveillance Gatto says: "children must be closely watched if you want to keep a society under tight central control. Children will follow a private drummer if you can,t get them into a uniformed marching band."

How many passions have been lost to students who were told their natural aptitudes were leading them in the "wrong" direction, and whose talents were blunted by the corporate-approved drive toward regimented conformity?

Besides teaching this hidden curriculum, Gatto asserts, the schools also separate children from their families, thereby weakening the bonds of family. This attack against the family is a part of the larger campaign in America to atomize people into individuals, so that having only themselves, they are weak and helpless and unable to resist the establishment, Johmann notes.

Having read this laundry list of what public schools do to our children, isn't it clear that our government is behaving in the same way as our monolithic school system, and isn't it even clearer that this process is not producing thoughtful human beings? Instead, the vast majority are the flag-waving zombies who cheer as American military might murders innocent children in faraway places, and turns its own citizens into robotic, thoughtless advocates of "the war on terror"?

If you have kids in school, be sure and study Johmann's website and its links before you make the decision to get them out of public schools as fast as you possibly can.
 
2012-02-15 11:29:28 PM  
Our family homeschools.

Now, let me say as a black, secular family, were are a minority within a minority. There are so many misconceptions about homeschooling that we are constantly subjected to the critcisms of misinformed family and friends.

The biggest misconception is that our children don't socialize. My little one goes to acting school, swim lessons at the Y, music lessons, soccer, girl scouts, museum classes and summer camp. How much more socializing does she need?!

Homeschooled children consistently score higher than their public school counterparts, even when you account for factors like economic advantage, parental education level, race and gender. As a matter of fact, it has been shown that even poor homeschooled children with under-educated parents perform higher than some of their public school peers.

When my little one is older, she can go to enrichment courses for any subjects I can't tackle. I have no shame about my choice to homeschool.

In the black community, there is a pervasive culture of anti-intellectualism that tells children it's not okay to be smart. I want to protect my child from that at all costs.
 
2012-02-15 11:58:43 PM  

Mr. Breeze: The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Mr. Breeze: gimmegimme: The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: It would be nice if they stopped slashing funding for education. For some reason, politicians think it is okay to take money away from education to fit their budget needs. Meanwhile, police budgets, politician salaries, infrastructure for fossil fuel-burning transportation, etc. remain untouched.

A well educated human race is important for the betterment of our society. I keep my kid in public schools because I think it is more to build up society than to just watch out for my own. I'm involved in my son's school. I'm poor as shiat (I just don't place much value in money), but I'm very educated. I help out at the school when I can, and I help my son with his learning. I teach him what the school does not.

I think the real issue is how devalued education is in the US.

I wasn't going to bother with this point since we're so deep into the thread, but homeschooling does seem like a Randian kind of "fark you, I got mine."



In a system this broken, it isn't necessarily wise to just go with the flow out of some misguided sense of equality.

Who is suggesting going with the flow? How is the sense of equality misguided? Do you even think before you type? When something as important as the education system is broken, then you work to change the system. YOU. WORK. TO CHANGE. THE SYSTEM.

Sorry bud. Didn't mean to get you riled up. You're "fark you, I got mine" comment set me of because you made it sound like home schoolers are selfish.

However, I'll be damned if I'm going to force my child through said broke ass system while politicians fight over how to make it better (making it worse in the process.) Especially if better options exist. If they fix the system, I'll gladly embrace it.


I was the one who implied that homeschoolers are telling the country, "fark you, I got mine." I guess it's only because families who don't want to send their kids to school are telling the local municipality to fark themselves because they got theirs.
 
2012-02-16 12:01:43 AM  

archichris: gimmegimme: I would be fine with homeschooling if parents could demonstrate they can, for example, still do calculus. So many Americans are unable to figure out the change without looking at the register or to find Iraq on a world map...what percentage of parents know what they're talking about?

They need to be certified to make sure they're not ruining their child's life...right?

87% of the kids who graduate from my cities public school system are not proficient at math.

If your child is about to be expelled for say joining a gang and assaulting other students on campus....in my town you can write a letter to the administration telling them you are home schooling the kid. The record of expulsion is erased and your kid gets to sit home all day watching TV. Then you get to re-enroll him the next school year.

I have a good friend who home schools, he is very normal. His kids are very normal. Except the 6 year old is a competent dirt bike rider like his older sister....which is odd in an urban neighborhood like we live in.

I cannot do calculus anymore. I couldn't the year I entered structural design and analysis classes. I scored in the 98th percentile for four consecutive semesters of SDAA. So im guessing if I wanted to teach my kids calculus for some reason I could get up to speed again in about the same amount of time.

Look we all know that in some areas the public schools are a death sentence for your childs future. If someone wants to teach their kids at home in that environment, let them, it cannot possible be worse.


That totally makes sense. If you have gym class at home, you get to shower with your mom.
 
2012-02-16 01:16:50 AM  
moops 2012-02-15 08:00:06 PM
(farky'd as: Kopi Luwak a la Moops)

Kittypie070: i.imgur.com
Y'all are slippin mightily, Fark'!!



How old is that now? When was the original thread?



BOO YOW!
(here it is)
 
2012-02-16 05:22:22 AM  

murdoch's_weeners: I teach essay-writing skills to middle and high school students. Roughly 1/4 my students are from an Islamic private school, about 1/2 from a public school, and 1/4 are home-schooled.

The home-schooled kids are by far the most competent, followed by the private school kids. The ones from the local public schools (2 different schools) are way behind. It's an issue - I can't really teach them all the same material for the same age/grade level. My 4th grade home-schoolers can write a 4-paragraph narrative essay and the 5th grade public-schoolers are still fuzzy on the concept of intro/conclusion paragraphs and thesis statements.

I'm not a parent, but if I were, I'd do my best to home school if I can, even if it means I have to dedicate part of my life to keeping my *own* skills sharp so I can teach them. There's more than one way to raise a child. The idea that all these kids are going to turn into social incompetents is a little silly. Social skills develop through interaction with other children, but not necessarily *only* from the classroom environment we're used to. Neighborhood sports teams, field trips, summer camp, boy/girl scouts... there are plenty of ways to get your kid out there spending time with other kids, and they don't all involve sitting her still for 9 hours a day bent over standardized tests and trying to coerce/drug her individuality away.


I worry a LOT more about the kids who get the "field trip" home schooling philosophy than the ones whose parents put them in prep school. Sending a kid to prep school is evidence that you care deeply about your child's academic performance, so you obviously have a skewed self-selected sample there.

The unfortunate reality is that as homeschooling expands in popularity from "fanatic" to "idealist" to "fad" the standards drop; lots of parents have hopped on the bandwagon who barely have a business even being parents, let alone parent-teachers, and homeschooling websites have been taken over by the helicopter contingent who pushes emotional learning at the expense of any kind of book leaning. I thought that's the problem homeschoolers were trying to get away from in the first place. I'm completely satisfied that anyone who enrolls their kids in any kind of prep school is going to turn out well-rounded kids, with no further proof needed, but that doesn't encompass the full spectrum.
 
2012-02-16 10:26:43 AM  
CSB time:

Being a younger farker, I was in middle school around 1999. I went to public school in Louisville, Ky. Completely serious, we had bomb threats called in at least once EVERY week. Sometimes several times in a week. So single file, we'd line up and follow our teachers to an elementary school down the block and sit in their gym for 3 to 4 hours. That middle school building also housed a high school, which is where I got to participate in a race war freshman year!
 
2012-02-16 10:38:08 AM  

Shazam999: Okay, WTF? If they're working, who's actually teaching the kid then? Jesus?


Real late follow up: None of these people are terribly religious. It's their spouse, usually, and them at night and on weekends. Different subjects shared. Some have groups they go to for certain subjects. Yeah, I don't get it. The ones I've met are not all that brilliant or knowledgeable. By the time you get to high school, that's a real problem. Again, this is a top district. You can take marine bio, linear algebra, robotics, AP lit or French and have a good teacher and a class full of bright kids that will challenge their peers. Sports too.

I can kinda understand the ones who are religious nuts or are in areas where the schools are overrun by gangs, but this is just lame.
 
2012-02-16 10:47:09 AM  

2xcited: Here is a dirty little secret that small business owners have. We hire home schoolers because they are better educated, have a stronger work ethic, can work independently and do not believe they are entitled to everything just because they exist.


Yeah.....generally speaking, NO. Even at the HS grad level, I can train someone to do practical stuff like solder or leak check a vacuum system pretty quickly. I'm not going to spend the time to teach them how to do a tensor product or use mathematica or to find a ground loop or to calculate an isotope distribution*. And yes, I've had HS graduates who can do those things. From public schools.

In my experience, homeschooled kids have HUGE gaps in their knowledge.
 
2012-02-16 04:23:32 PM  

Carrots: CSB time:

Being a younger farker, I was in middle school around 1999. I went to public school in Louisville, Ky. Completely serious, we had bomb threats called in at least once EVERY week. Sometimes several times in a week. So single file, we'd line up and follow our teachers to an elementary school down the block and sit in their gym for 3 to 4 hours. That middle school building also housed a high school, which is where I got to participate in a race war freshman year!


Not trying to one-up you but here's my CSB:

July 1987 thru June 1990. Grades 10 thru 12. Department of Defense Dependent Schools - Panama.

We too had bomb threats where they would send the students out to the stadium for 2 hours while the military police K-9 unit sniffed out the school. In a pathetic attempt to not panic the student population, the principal would call out a code to the teachers over the PA when there was a bomb threat (practically every other day, so we all knew what the codes meant). Code 3 meant a bomb threat drill, just to keep us on our toes, I guess. We'd clear the building and be back in class in about 10 minutes. Code 2 meant that there was a call-in of a bomb threat. We'd clear the building and sit around for 2 to 3 hours playing D&D or cards in the stadium, great way to waste the day.
Some day in October 1989 at about 10:30, the principal comes over the PA with a really shaky voice, "T-teachers, w-we h-have a Code 1, clear the building, this is n-not a drill!" The teachers, to their credit, didn't panic, but we evacuated the building in record time. The admins called in the buses and we were loaded into the buses from the stadium and returned taken to the nearest base to be released to our parents from there. Someone had placed a very nasty pipe bombs in the boy's bathroom directly across from the main office, another near the cafeteria, and a third near the offices of the JROTC.

Hell, when Operation Just Cause started in Dec of 89 they used the high school as a refugee camp. Thanks to that, we didn't get back to school until March and didn't have to take mid-terms or finals that year. By the time I graduated in June most of the dependents had been shipped back to the US, and the entire school district only had about 500 students. We left 3 days after I graduated. Considering all the things I saw down there, it was not soon enough, if you ask me.

/Panama was a beautiful country, if you didn't mind the bullets and the PTSD.
 
2012-02-16 06:08:46 PM  

Jixa: Carrots: CSB time:

Being a younger farker, I was in middle school around 1999. I went to public school in Louisville, Ky. Completely serious, we had bomb threats called in at least once EVERY week. Sometimes several times in a week. So single file, we'd line up and follow our teachers to an elementary school down the block and sit in their gym for 3 to 4 hours. That middle school building also housed a high school, which is where I got to participate in a race war freshman year!

Not trying to one-up you but here's my CSB:

July 1987 thru June 1990. Grades 10 thru 12. Department of Defense Dependent Schools - Panama.

We too had bomb threats where they would send the students out to the stadium for 2 hours while the military police K-9 unit sniffed out the school. In a pathetic attempt to not panic the student population, the principal would call out a code to the teachers over the PA when there was a bomb threat (practically every other day, so we all knew what the codes meant). Code 3 meant a bomb threat drill, just to keep us on our toes, I guess. We'd clear the building and be back in class in about 10 minutes. Code 2 meant that there was a call-in of a bomb threat. We'd clear the building and sit around for 2 to 3 hours playing D&D or cards in the stadium, great way to waste the day.
Some day in October 1989 at about 10:30, the principal comes over the PA with a really shaky voice, "T-teachers, w-we h-have a Code 1, clear the building, this is n-not a drill!" The teachers, to their credit, didn't panic, but we evacuated the building in record time. The admins called in the buses and we were loaded into the buses from the stadium and returned taken to the nearest base to be released to our parents from there. Someone had placed a very nasty pipe bombs in the boy's bathroom directly across from the main office, another near the cafeteria, and a third near the offices of the JROTC.

Hell, when Operation Just Cause started in Dec of 89 they used the high ...


Sheesh- you one upped me just by having real bombs! :P

We just had a faculty too wary to ignore cries of "Wolf!"
 
2012-02-16 07:32:40 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Stile4aly: I'm in favor of strict standards for homeschooling including that parents demonstrate an ability to teach and that they use state approved materials

What makes you think this doesn't exist? I remember my mom re-applying every year for... I forget what it's called, exactly. Homeschooling license, permit, whatever you want to call it. I graduated from [Familyname] Academy. Not because it looked good, but because that was where I legally went to school. I was taught using a curriculum developed for homeschooling. No, it wasn't the same thing used in public schools, but it was a state approved curriculum. Was I homeschooled for religious reasons? Sure, I won't deny that. But it really wasn't a big part of my schooling, it pretty much stayed a part of my religious schooling (much like what many public taught kids go through, you have school and Sunday school). This myth of parents pulling their kids out of the Evil Public School and making up lessons that consist of God, God, and More God is just that, a myth. If it wasn't, homeschooled kids wouldn't be able to make it outside of their homes. I'm not talking about not playing well with others, I mean they couldn't operate in the world on a very basic level.

/If my education was nothing but reading the bible, I wouldn't be here right now.


It does in about half the states. In the other half, there are few or absolutely no standards at all. So yes, it's a valid criticism until the whole country gets on the same page.

You grew up in one of those half that take homeschooling seriously, which is awesome.
 
2012-02-16 08:19:43 PM  

BurnShrike: loonatic112358: So how many of you against homeschooling have had a kid go all the way through public schooling

I'm not against home schooling, but the biggest problem with it is that you can't teach what you don't know.


I wish I had back the half hour of my life I spent reading all these comments, waiting for SOMEONE to point out that homeschooling parents don't have to know every subject in order to ensure their children learn it.

Here are a few ways homeschoolers can learn calculus:

• Tutors
• Co-ops
• Lessons on DVD coupled w/homework and answer keys
• Interactive curriculum (software or online)
• Distance learning with a teacher (yes, even calculus is available via online academies, in standard and AP flavors)
• Dual enrollment
• Self-study with just a calculus book (how I learned calculus the summer before college started)

Some posters mentioned one or another of these possibilities, but for the benefit of the many who obviously know nothing about homeschooling, the entire world is potentially a homeschooled student's classroom. And if one method doesn't work, homeschoolers have the freedom to immediately drop it and go to something else.

Homeschooling does not mean Mom and Dad personally teach every iota of information. It means they, in cooperation with their children to a greater or lesser extent, determine what will be taught by what method and with what content. Instead of following a lackluster or failing curriculum taught by people who had the lowest SAT scores of any profession.
 
2012-02-16 08:22:46 PM  
And may I just point out the delicious irony of dozens of Farkers worrying about the socialization of homeschooled kids, while sitting for hours all alone at the computer reading and commenting on Fark threads.
 
2012-02-16 09:17:59 PM  

CalvinLives: BurnShrike: loonatic112358: So how many of you against homeschooling have had a kid go all the way through public schooling

I'm not against home schooling, but the biggest problem with it is that you can't teach what you don't know.

I wish I had back the half hour of my life I spent reading all these comments, waiting for SOMEONE to point out that homeschooling parents don't have to know every subject in order to ensure their children learn it.

Here are a few ways homeschoolers can learn calculus:

• Tutors
• Co-ops
• Lessons on DVD coupled w/homework and answer keys
• Interactive curriculum (software or online)
• Distance learning with a teacher (yes, even calculus is available via online academies, in standard and AP flavors)
• Dual enrollment
• Self-study with just a calculus book (how I learned calculus the summer before college started)

Some posters mentioned one or another of these possibilities, but for the benefit of the many who obviously know nothing about homeschooling, the entire world is potentially a homeschooled student's classroom. And if one method doesn't work, homeschoolers have the freedom to immediately drop it and go to something else.

Homeschooling does not mean Mom and Dad personally teach every iota of information. It means they, in cooperation with their children to a greater or lesser extent, determine what will be taught by what method and with what content. Instead of following a lackluster or failing curriculum taught by people who had the lowest SAT scores of any profession.


I'm surprised this didn't come up either, and it should be emphasized. Just because the parents aren't polymaths doesn't mean they can't find the people who CAN impart the knowledge.
 
2012-02-16 09:30:19 PM  

Bad_Seed: In modern maths, where you can pick and choose your axioms the need for proofs loses a lot of its power.


Actually, no - the question instead becomes what can be validly derived from which axioms. The need for proofs -- that you CAN get from starting axiom set A to conclusion theorem B -- remains the same.

CalvinLives: And may I just point out the delicious irony of dozens of Farkers worrying about the socialization of homeschooled kids, while sitting for hours all alone at the computer reading and commenting on Fark threads.


...with an interesting fraction claiming to be homeschooled themselves, who are confident there's no need for the others to worry?
 
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