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(Think Progress)   In keeping with the Right's War on Women, FoxNews pundit advocates the raping of female members of the military, saying "What did they expect?"   (thinkprogress.org ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Fox News, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, pundits  
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11109 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Feb 2012 at 4:24 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-13 11:57:19 PM  

Kome: watson.t.hamster: I think I'll leave it here:
I think that's a problem that always comes up on rape threads. Some people point out that certain conditions are more likely to lead to rape than others based on plenty of data showing exactly that. Others take this as victim blaming. It can be part of victim blaming perhaps, but it is not by default.


Proved my point to a T.

FWIW, I don't think you're victim blaming. I think you're just genuinely an idiot when it comes to arguing a point. You seem to think that there's only one way to go about addressing this problem, and since you've settled on what is historically a completely ineffective way to address the problem of rape (i.e. talking to women about what they can do) you seem unwilling to have a discussion about other methods that could be used which haven't been tried before but seem to work for addressing other crimes (i.e. talking to men about what they can do). In short, not victim blaming, just stupid. The next guy I'm about to respond to, he's victim blaming.

skepticultist: What would be effective for reducing the number of adult rapes would be to have a serious national conversation on young adult drinking and to teach young women how to remain safe while still being able to enjoy a life of partying and drinking.

We've been having that national conversation for as long as we've been a nation discussing rape as a problem. It hasn't worked. At all. Let's try a different approach.

The real problem is that we live in a society where a significant percentage of young women engage in behavior that results in a rape occurring, but many of those women do not see the consequences of their behavior as having resulted in a rape.

Change every instance of "women" in that sentence to "men" and you have it dead on. The actions of the rapist are what result in rape occurring. And many of those men do not see their actions as immoral/illegal/a problem whatsoever. THAT is the f*cking problem.


I kind of love you right now.
 
2012-02-13 11:59:12 PM  

skepticultist: Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: The actual study isn't online, dumbass. They charge money for access to those things.

So why should we believe you again?

Because I'm telling the truth and have nothing to gain by lying.


Yes you do, you would gain by reinforcing your argument whether or not it's bogus.
 
2012-02-14 12:00:30 AM  

Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: The actual study isn't online, dumbass. They charge money for access to those things.

So why should we believe you again?


That part at least is true. Journals do charge for access to articles. Obscene amounts, too, just to access a single article. However, most colleges/universities subscribe to online journal databases so you can access them for free if you have access to the university database. I do, so I was able to get the full article, and have been reading some of Koss's work since it was brought up. Pretty straightforward stuff, if you ask me. And since I do study clinical psychology (from the neuro perspective, to be fair, so this subniche isn't precisely up my ally) I think I'm in a relatively good position to make that assessment. Although on a lark I decided to look this study up on Google Scholar, and it IS available for free, but from a different source than the actual journal's website... so there's that. Go to Google Scholar and just search for Mary Koss, it's the second article, titled "The scope of rape: Incidence and prevalence of sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of higher education students."
 
2012-02-14 12:02:51 AM  

watson.t.hamster: Fista-Phobia: watson.t.hamster:

Proved my point to a T.

HAHAHA! That's St. Petersburg, FL near the beach causeway lame.

How so? It was exactly accurate.

At no point did I blame the victim, that was still the claim.

I was right.

And since this has been beaten in to the ground for over 800 comments I really don't see any further point.

No matter what I say a this point I will get "so what you're implying is that you support rape". I can refute it all night, and have for a significant portion of it. Still the lies will persist.

Anyway as I pointed out this is a major double standard/area of completely irrational thought for some people.

Thank you everyone for helping to prove that for me. And good night.


No problem. Any time. Reaching a validating conclusion is very therapeutic.
 
2012-02-14 12:05:31 AM  

Kome: watson.t.hamster: I think I'll leave it here:
I think that's a problem that always comes up on rape threads. Some people point out that certain conditions are more likely to lead to rape than others based on plenty of data showing exactly that. Others take this as victim blaming. It can be part of victim blaming perhaps, but it is not by default.


Proved my point to a T.

FWIW, I don't think you're victim blaming.


Alright fine, one last comment then bed time.

If I'm not victim blaming your entire argument based around me victim blaming kinda falls apart doesn't it?

I think you're just genuinely an idiot when it comes to arguing a point.

Ditto? What's the point of that.

You seem to think that there's only one way to go about addressing this problem,

Can't help yourself can you? I never said there was only one way to go about addressing the problem. I even agreed with you that we should educate men as well. But that doesn't matter. You still have this compulsive need to lie about me.

and since you've settled on what is historically a completely ineffective way to address the proble of rape (i.e. talking to women about what they can do)

This statement loses meaning when you realize it is based on a falsehood.

you seem unwilling to have a discussion about other methods that could be used which haven't been tried before but seem to work for addressing other crimes (i.e. talking to men about what they can do).

This requires we of course ignore the part where I said we should address both sides of the equation (you keep quoting that as proof that I love rape then pretend I never said it, weird).

Anyway my initial statement that rape threads bring out people who will hysterically cry victim-blamer inaccurately has been entirely borne out.
 
2012-02-14 12:07:15 AM  
In HS I ran with a group including a cute little blonde girl who had this attraction to Dirty Leg dudes much older- the Harley wallet no Harley crowd. They used to hang out on an old railroad bed behind a Derby gas station and smoke weed in their Jack Daniels t-shirts. She was spotted over there smoking with them and we all told her to stay away, that they would get her drunk and rape her. She didn't listen. She got raped and dropped out of school. Went on to live the Dirty Leg life, partying with these losers and having Dirty Leg kids and Dirty Leg drama all the time.
 
2012-02-14 12:07:32 AM  

Kome: Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: The actual study isn't online, dumbass. They charge money for access to those things.

So why should we believe you again?

That part at least is true. Journals do charge for access to articles. Obscene amounts, too, just to access a single article. However, most colleges/universities subscribe to online journal databases so you can access them for free if you have access to the university database. I do, so I was able to get the full article, and have been reading some of Koss's work since it was brought up. Pretty straightforward stuff, if you ask me. And since I do study clinical psychology (from the neuro perspective, to be fair, so this subniche isn't precisely up my ally) I think I'm in a relatively good position to make that assessment. Although on a lark I decided to look this study up on Google Scholar, and it IS available for free, but from a different source than the actual journal's website... so there's that. Go to Google Scholar and just search for Mary Koss, it's the second article, titled "The scope of rape: Incidence and prevalence of sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of higher education students."


I tried that one and they want me to pay $12 for it. I'm not going to spend that kind of money just to prove someone is full of shiat.
 
2012-02-14 12:07:42 AM  
Watson, why do you assume that rape is a natural part of a male soldier's character?
 
2012-02-14 12:10:22 AM  

s2s2s2: Watson, why do you assume that rape is a natural part of a male soldier's character?


Projection?
 
2012-02-14 12:12:36 AM  

Kome: The real problem is that we live in a society where a significant percentage of young women engage in behavior that results in a rape occurring, but many of those women do not see the consequences of their behavior as having resulted in a rape.

Change every instance of "women" in that sentence to "men" and you have it dead on. The actions of the rapist are what result in rape occurring. And many of those men do not see their actions as immoral/illegal/a problem whatsoever. THAT is the f*cking problem.


You're entirely right on that point. These rapes would not occur if men choose to abstain from having sex with women who use alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate sex.

The problem is two-fold: First, men who choose that path (such as I have) miss out on many opportunities for mutually satisfying casual sex. Second, it requires men to see an action which women tacitily are encouraging as immoral/illegal/a problem.

That's why education doesn't accomplish anything. Because most men when presented with a poster telling them that having sex with a drunk women is immoral and being presented with the reality that women in their peer circle use alcohol as a means to prepare themselves for sexual encounters is forced to decide who he believes. Does he believe the poster that is telling him it is wrong? Or does he believe the woman who is telling him that it is okay? Clearly more men will choose to believe the woman because believing the woman has the more gratifying result.

Men will stop having sex with women who are drunk when women stop using alcohol as a means of overcoming their own inhibitions about sex. You are never going to successfully convince most men that having drunken sex with drunk chicks is immoral and wrong when a significant portion of the female population is using alcohol as the primary means of facilitating sex. Because in those circumstances you are essentially asking men to accept as true the proposition that most women in their peer circle are intentionally facilitating their own rape as a strategy for achieving sexual pleasure, and that is frankly so counter-intuitive that most men simply won't believe it's true.

Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe. That isn't going to happen. You will gain no traction with that strategy for reducing rape.
 
2012-02-14 12:15:06 AM  

skepticultist: Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe.


Who is suggesting that?
 
2012-02-14 12:15:16 AM  

watson.t.hamster: If I'm not victim blaming your entire argument based around me victim blaming kinda falls apart doesn't it?


I didn't say you were. I just kept pointing out that the way in which you defend yourself is very similar to how actual rape apologists defend themselves, therefore the implication logically flows.

Ditto? What's the point of that.

It means I should really use smaller words with you, but whatever.

Can't help yourself can you? I never said there was only one way to go about addressing the problem. I even agreed with you that we should educate men as well. But that doesn't matter. You still have this compulsive need to lie about me.

Once again I reiterate my point about human cognition proceeding on more than what is explicit. The things you say are often associated with other things. In this case, the bullsh*t tirade you've gone on is strongly associated with rape apologists and victim blaming. Add to that the fact that you WERE dismissive when I brought up to you the idea of having a national dialogue with men to keep it in their pants.

This requires we of course ignore the part where I said we should address both sides of the equation (you keep quoting that as proof that I love rape then pretend I never said it, weird).

And you keep missing the point I keep trying to make: We've been having that talk with women for a long time. Far longer than any of us have been alive. Rape is the only violent crime that isn't going down, like every other violent crime is. One hypothesis for this is that with every other violent crime, preventative measures are aimed at convincing people not to be a criminal whereas with rape the preventative measures taken have been aimed at convincing people not to be a victim. My point, therefore, is that maybe we should stop what we've been doing that has yielded no positive results and address rape the way we address other violent crimes: talk to the people who are likely to commit it and convince them not to do it. There is literally no point in addressing both sides of the equation when we have a conspicuous lack of evidence that talking to the victims does anything and a mountain of evidence that talking to the potential criminals does. Let's channel our resources in the most productive way, rather than split it up so that some of it goes towards things that work and some of it goes towards things that don't.

Anyway my initial statement that rape threads bring out people who will hysterically cry victim-blamer inaccurately has been entirely borne out.

Because everyone else is the one with the perceptual problems, not you. Got it. You're the sane man in a sea of lunacy. I hear that from a lot of people with various diagnoses. I wonder what that implies about you.
 
2012-02-14 12:15:36 AM  

WhyteRaven74: skepticultist: At my university they attempted to cover that during the freshman orientation but were stopped by protests organized by campus feminists who accused the university of "blaming the victim."

Interestingly young people in Germany, France, England, Holland etc drink quite a bit more than young people in America, yet they have quite a bit less rape. Interestingly they also tend to start having sex earlier. Funny how the world works.


They also have more open and frank attitudes towards and conversations about sex than America's more repressive Christian culture. Europe also doesn't have the residuals of frontierism in your culture, including machismo, sexism, and hatred of education. You will also notice Americans are a very controlling culture. As much as we claim to love freedom, we are ready to get into everyone's business, from telling the neighbors what they can do in their bedroom to dictating policy to nations on the other side of the world.

I think these all contibute to the number of rapes in this country.
 
2012-02-14 12:16:57 AM  

Fart_Machine: s2s2s2: Watson, why do you assume that rape is a natural part of a male soldier's character?

Projection?


Correct.
 
2012-02-14 12:20:26 AM  
And it was at that moment that the last straw broke the camel's back, and America knew that there would never again be two viable political parties. From that day forward, there would be one viable party, and the whackjobs who opposed everything that party did. The people, given no choices to make in the elections, stayed home, and in the years that followed, the lone party began to deteriorate into totalitarianism.
 
2012-02-14 12:21:06 AM  

KiplingKat872: They also have more open and frank attitudes towards and conversations about sex than America's more repressive Christian culture


Very true. As for sexism and machismo, there's Greece and Spain, though how it manifests and such is quite different from in the US.
 
2012-02-14 12:22:01 AM  

Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe.

Who is suggesting that?


Kome is suggesting that.

Remember Karen Owen? Karen Owen wrote a detailed account of her own sexual exploits. By her own admission, the majority of those exploits begin with Owen drinking in order to lower her own inhibitions. If we are to accept the idea that a man having sex with a woman who is inebriated to the point that it affects her judgement is rape (and thus immoral), then we must accept the reality that Karen Owen wants to be raped repeatedly and facilitates her own rape as her primary means of achieving sexual pleasure.
 
2012-02-14 12:22:52 AM  

Mrtraveler01: Kome: Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: The actual study isn't online, dumbass. They charge money for access to those things.

So why should we believe you again?

That part at least is true. Journals do charge for access to articles. Obscene amounts, too, just to access a single article. However, most colleges/universities subscribe to online journal databases so you can access them for free if you have access to the university database. I do, so I was able to get the full article, and have been reading some of Koss's work since it was brought up. Pretty straightforward stuff, if you ask me. And since I do study clinical psychology (from the neuro perspective, to be fair, so this subniche isn't precisely up my ally) I think I'm in a relatively good position to make that assessment. Although on a lark I decided to look this study up on Google Scholar, and it IS available for free, but from a different source than the actual journal's website... so there's that. Go to Google Scholar and just search for Mary Koss, it's the second article, titled "The scope of rape: Incidence and prevalence of sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of higher education students."

I tried that one and they want me to pay $12 for it. I'm not going to spend that kind of money just to prove someone is full of shiat.


Ah, then maybe I could access it via Google Scholar because of my university access. I can send you the full PDF if you want. I saved a copy.
 
2012-02-14 12:23:12 AM  
if it is inevitable for some rapes to occur with the integration of women into the armed forces (and of course it shouldn't be, theoretically), than what number, if any, would be "acceptable"?
unfortunately, some soldiers will be rapists. kill em if you find em, but they are there.

to complain about the costs of supporting victims is sickening.
perhaps the point is that women in the military (at least some positions) is not fiscally efficient because of the "extra" costs and bureaucracies created to deal specifically with issues caused by the insertion of women into these positions.

her position appears to be that feminists force themselves into positions of risk and then complain about the risk.
well, duh.
 
2012-02-14 12:23:13 AM  

ChaoticLimbs: And it was at that moment that the last straw broke the camel's back, and America knew that there would never again be two viable political parties. From that day forward, there would be one viable party, and the whackjobs who opposed everything that party did. The people, given no choices to make in the elections, stayed home, and in the years that followed, the lone party began to deteriorate into totalitarianism.


You know, I hope that instead, a viable progressive party emerges. The Democrats can be the new Republicans... they're friendly enough to corporate interests to pull it off. And the crazies can slowly die out or start their own communities and leave the rest of us alone.
 
2012-02-14 12:23:37 AM  
I am shocked, SHOCKED, that this woman was allowed out of her kitchen long enough to go down to FuxNews studios to expel such misogynistic sputum on international TV.
Where is her husband?

/s
 
2012-02-14 12:23:39 AM  

skepticultist: Kome: The real problem is that we live in a society where a significant percentage of young women engage in behavior that results in a rape occurring, but many of those women do not see the consequences of their behavior as having resulted in a rape.

Change every instance of "women" in that sentence to "men" and you have it dead on. The actions of the rapist are what result in rape occurring. And many of those men do not see their actions as immoral/illegal/a problem whatsoever. THAT is the f*cking problem.

You're entirely right on that point. These rapes would not occur if men choose to abstain from having sex with women who use alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate sex.

The problem is two-fold: First, men who choose that path (such as I have) miss out on many opportunities for mutually satisfying casual sex. Second, it requires men to see an action which women tacitily are encouraging as immoral/illegal/a problem.

That's why education doesn't accomplish anything. Because most men when presented with a poster telling them that having sex with a drunk women is immoral and being presented with the reality that women in their peer circle use alcohol as a means to prepare themselves for sexual encounters is forced to decide who he believes. Does he believe the poster that is telling him it is wrong? Or does he believe the woman who is telling him that it is okay? Clearly more men will choose to believe the woman because believing the woman has the more gratifying result.

Men will stop having sex with women who are drunk when women stop using alcohol as a means of overcoming their own inhibitions about sex. You are never going to successfully convince most men that having drunken sex with drunk chicks is immoral and wrong when a significant portion of the female population is using alcohol as the primary means of facilitating sex. Because in those circumstances you are essentially asking men to accept as true the proposition that most women in their peer circle are intentionally facilitating their own rape as a strategy for achieving sexual pleasure, and that is frankly so counter-intuitive that most men simply won't believe it's true.

Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe. That isn't going to happen. You will gain no traction with that strategy for reducing rape.


Maybe the women you have dated need to use booze to enjoy sex with you, but don't speak for all of us.

I love the way every single rape thread on Fark turns into, "But if I can't get women hammered, I'm never going to get laid!"

Maybe it would help to teach boys that girls are people too, worthy of the same respect other boys are. Then maybe as they get older teaching them that as women are human beings just like men, they do not exist for sexual self gratification.

Maybe that is where educating boys should start.
 
2012-02-14 12:23:56 AM  

skepticultist: intentionally facilitating their own rape as a strategy for achieving sexual pleasure


You know, you're doing a very good job of telling us you can't get laid by way of projection. And you're achieving near performance art levels of presentation and distortion of reality to achieve it.
 
2012-02-14 12:25:38 AM  

skepticultist: Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe.

Who is suggesting that?

Kome is suggesting that.

Remember Karen Owen? Karen Owen wrote a detailed account of her own sexual exploits. By her own admission, the majority of those exploits begin with Owen drinking in order to lower her own inhibitions. If we are to accept the idea that a man having sex with a woman who is inebriated to the point that it affects her judgement is rape (and thus immoral), then we must accept the reality that Karen Owen wants to be raped repeatedly and facilitates her own rape as her primary means of achieving sexual pleasure.


When you drink, are you drinking with the expectation of getting raped?
 
2012-02-14 12:25:49 AM  

skepticultist: Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe.

Who is suggesting that?

Kome is suggesting that.

Remember Karen Owen? Karen Owen wrote a detailed account of her own sexual exploits. By her own admission, the majority of those exploits begin with Owen drinking in order to lower her own inhibitions.


So you're basing everything on the actions of one person?

That's sound reasoning.

/rolls eyes

If we are to accept the idea that a man having sex with a woman who is inebriated to the point that it affects her judgement is rape (and thus immoral), then we must accept the reality that Karen Owen wants to be raped repeatedly and facilitates her own rape as her primary means of achieving sexual pleasure.

That is perhaps the derpiest thing that's been said in this thread today. And that's saying something.
 
2012-02-14 12:27:29 AM  

WhyteRaven74: skepticultist: intentionally facilitating their own rape as a strategy for achieving sexual pleasure

You know, you're doing a very good job of telling us you can't get laid by way of projection. And you're achieving near performance art levels of presentation and distortion of reality to achieve it.


The added irony is that while feminists have bemoaned in the past that all men are potential sexual predators, this moran is proving them correct.
 
2012-02-14 12:27:41 AM  

Kome: Ah, then maybe I could access it via Google Scholar because of my university access. I can send you the full PDF if you want. I saved a copy.


I just checked Google Scholar and managed to get it no problem.

For the curious here's the paper (new window)

Also, who thought a 26 year old research paper was relevant?
 
2012-02-14 12:28:04 AM  

Kome: Rape is the only violent crime that isn't going down, like every other violent crime is.


"Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years. Had the 1993 rate held steady, 6.8 million Americans would have been assaulted in the last 13 years.

But, thanks to the decline, the actual number of victims was about 4.2 million. In other words, if not for the historic gains we've made in the last decade, an additional 2,546,420 Americans would have become victims of sexual violence."

SOURCE: RAINN (Rape Abuse & Incest National Network) (new window)

So, how's that bullshiat fearmongering and outright lies working out for ya?
 
2012-02-14 12:28:44 AM  

Mrtraveler01: That is perhaps the derpiest thing that's been said in this thread today. And that's saying something.


Just wait til he gets going. The dude is the Vizzini of gender studies.
 
2012-02-14 12:28:50 AM  

WhyteRaven74: KiplingKat872: They also have more open and frank attitudes towards and conversations about sex than America's more repressive Christian culture

Very true. As for sexism and machismo, there's Greece and Spain, though how it manifests and such is quite different from in the US.


I believe in those culture, machismo (and correct me if I am wrong) manifests in how many women can be charmed into bed. How many want that particular man.

Where in America machismo is more about what other men think, being percieved as the alpha by nailing as many women as possible.

That is my impression anyway. Could be totally off base.
 
2012-02-14 12:30:58 AM  

skepticultist: You're entirely right on that point. These rapes would not occur if men choose to abstain from having sex with women who use alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate sex.


Do you actually think those are the only instances that make a woman claim she was raped?

The problem is two-fold: First, men who choose that path (such as I have) miss out on many opportunities for mutually satisfying casual sex. Second, it requires men to see an action which women tacitily are encouraging as immoral/illegal/a problem.

I wish I had one of those graphics that showed the point and you with a large gap of space in between them. It seems most applicable here.

That's why education doesn't accomplish anything. Because most men when presented with a poster telling them that having sex with a drunk women is immoral and being presented with the reality that women in their peer circle use alcohol as a means to prepare themselves for sexual encounters is forced to decide who he believes. Does he believe the poster that is telling him it is wrong? Or does he believe the woman who is telling him that it is okay? Clearly more men will choose to believe the woman because believing the woman has the more gratifying result.

I'm starting to understand why you only seem to have sex with drunk women. No one sober would choose to sleep with you. Most of the rest of the people on the planet, however, seem to manage to have lots of enjoyable, consensual, amazing sex while sober.

Men will stop having sex with women who are drunk when women stop using alcohol as a means of overcoming their own inhibitions about sex. You are never going to successfully convince most men that having drunken sex with drunk chicks is immoral and wrong when a significant portion of the female population is using alcohol as the primary means of facilitating sex. Because in those circumstances you are essentially asking men to accept as true the proposition that most women in their peer circle are intentionally facilitating their own rape as a strategy for achieving sexual pleasure, and that is frankly so counter-intuitive that most men simply won't believe it's true.

Again, I need one of those point and you jpegs.

Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe. That isn't going to happen. You will gain no traction with that strategy for reducing rape.

No. I don't even know where the hell you're coming with that.

After you blatantly tried to mislead people about a study, which I found and have a copy of to disseminate to anyone interested in actually reading it, you're now trying to suggest I want people to believe women want to be raped? Are you out of your goddamned mind?
 
2012-02-14 12:35:50 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Kome: Ah, then maybe I could access it via Google Scholar because of my university access. I can send you the full PDF if you want. I saved a copy.

I just checked Google Scholar and managed to get it no problem.

For the curious here's the paper (new window)

Also, who thought a 26 year old research paper was relevant?


Just because it's old doesn't mean it's irrelevant. Besides, it was brought up because skepticultist lied about her methodology in such a way that piqued my interest to look it up. I'm passingly familiar with Koss's work from some undergraduate and graduate studies (moreso now that I've been reading more of her stuff in the past hour or so) and his description of her methods seemed really off base. Sure enough, he's a lying sack of sh*t.
 
2012-02-14 12:36:26 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Interestingly young people in Germany, France, England, Holland etc drink quite a bit more than young people in America, yet they have quite a bit less rape. Interestingly they also tend to start having sex earlier. Funny how the world works.


Wheras Sweden has almost twice as much as the US!

A lot of the variation has some basis in the laws, I imagine. According to wiki here in Germany there is only a 8.9 pct rate (as opposed to 28.6 % in the US), but not sure how much our stricter definition of statutory rape figures into the changes.

KiplingKat872: You will also notice Americans are a very controlling culture. As much as we claim to love freedom, we are ready to get into everyone's business, from telling the neighbors what they can do in their bedroom to dictating policy to nations on the other side of the world.


Not sure that has much to do with rape statistics, ze Tschermans here are about the biggest busybody neighbor controlling rule oriented culture around and the numbers are rather low.
 
2012-02-14 12:40:15 AM  

Fart_Machine: The added irony is that while feminists have bemoaned in the past that all men are potential sexual predators, this moran is proving them correct.


There's that as well.

Kome: Just because it's old doesn't mean it's irrelevant.


True, though after 26 years you'd figure there'd be similar papers presenting more recent statistics and possibly other insights. Then again, one has to consider the source that mentioned the paper in the first place.
 
2012-02-14 12:42:15 AM  

KiplingKat872: Maybe the women you have dated need to use booze to enjoy sex with you, but don't speak for all of us.


That's a pretty typical personal attack, based on nothing but malignant speculation. I don't date women who drink to the point of inebriation, and I never have (which has more to do with the fact that I was raised by an alcoholic and can't stand being around drunk people than anything else). I recognize that has had the effect of greatly narrowing the field of women that I am willing to date, and thus limited my opportunities for sex.

None of which has fark all to do with the point I'm making.

I love the way every single rape thread on Fark turns into, "But if I can't get women hammered, I'm never going to get laid!"

This is not a matter of "getting women hammered." This is a matter of women getting themselves hammered as a means of facilitating sex. The reality is that if you limit yourself to relationships with women who don't get hammered as a means of facilitating sex, you will have less opportunities for sex, and for casual sex in particular.

Maybe it would help to teach boys that girls are people too, worthy of the same respect other boys are. Then maybe as they get older teaching them that as women are human beings just like men, they do not exist for sexual self gratification.

This is not an attitude that is limited to one gender. Young people, people between the ages of 16 and 24, are primarily interested in each other for self-gratifying reasons. Because young people are immature. This is true of both men and women.

Young women want to have sex, and they want to have sex without having to get married and be committed to a single man. Young women want to have casual, meaningless sex for their own pleasure and gratification. That is perfectly acceptable and their right.

It is also men's right to desire the exact same thing that women desire. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot celebrate women's sexual liberation and demand for women the freedom to engage in casual sexual relationships while simultaneously demonizing men who desire sexual liberation and the freedom to engage in casual sexual relationships as being disrespectful of women.

Maybe that is where educating boys should start.

Again, educating men in a way that does not reflect the reality they will encounter will never be effective. It's really no different that anti-drug education: If you lie to children about the harmful effects of marijuana, you will not reduce usage of drugs, because their own experience will reveal that you were lying to them and cause them to dismiss what they were taught as miseducation.
 
2012-02-14 12:42:15 AM  

Sabyen91: The Numbers: Biological Ali: The Numbers: I think you'll find that most studies say the majority are acquaintance rape. Wiki (new window) has plenty of cited sources for you to read if you disagree.

I know about the studies. It's fairly basic stuff. As is the understanding that "A given rape is more likely to have been carried out by an acquaintance than by a stranger" != "You will lower your chances of being raped if you spend more time with strangers"

Except your argument seems to be based around this rather novel idea of a 'base rape rate' and that the likliehood of rape is therefore a simply a factor of base rape rate x time spent together and ignores the importance that the prior relationship between rapist and victim can have in causing the rape.

I am not sure you could possibly quantify that. I mean, it is a good question but it isn't taken into account in studies and I am not sure it could.


Well, there are actually two kinds of "rape" although this is the sort of argument that sets off a-whole-nother argument among feminists and anti-rape activists who insist there is only one rape and it's all men's fault. But I insist there are two, and they're really two separate animals.

There's the kind most people think of as "rape rape" where the man is going to have sex with a woman one way or another, doesn't care what she wants or doesn't want, and basically thinks of her as a mobile vagina. Those guys are the ones who are rapists.

The other kind of rape is what I call "non-consensual sex" and is what happens when two people who aren't really dating but who are "seeing each other" and who are probably drinking get going one night, and due to lack of communication (and inebriation) wind up having sex that she didn't want but he didn't stop. It's not rape, but there isn't a name for what happened, because it wasn't sex with consent. This man isn't a rapist, in that under normal conditions he certainly wouldn't have been out holding women down and forcing them to have sex; but yet he's obviously not "normal" because he did keep going despite...well...something wasn't right.

The second kind of rape is to "real rape" what burglary would be to armed robbery. Or really more what an unarmed mugging would be to armed robbery with a gun. The same but not really the same.
 
2012-02-14 12:43:02 AM  

skepticultist: Mrtraveler01: skepticultist: What would be effective for reducing the number of adult rapes would be to have a serious national conversation on young adult drinking and to teach young women how to remain safe while still being able to enjoy a life of partying and drinking.

I dunno about you but my university covered that pretty heavily during freshman orientation.

At my university they attempted to cover that during the freshman orientation but were stopped by protests organized by campus feminists who accused the university of "blaming the victim."


Not that I don't believe you ... But ...

What university, what year? There must be documentation on this and I'm sure it didn't go down exactly as you state...

So, yeah, I'm saying I don't believe you.
 
2012-02-14 12:44:26 AM  

lilplatinum: WhyteRaven74: Interestingly young people in Germany, France, England, Holland etc drink quite a bit more than young people in America, yet they have quite a bit less rape. Interestingly they also tend to start having sex earlier. Funny how the world works.

Wheras Sweden has almost twice as much as the US!

A lot of the variation has some basis in the laws, I imagine. According to wiki here in Germany there is only a 8.9 pct rate (as opposed to 28.6 % in the US), but not sure how much our stricter definition of statutory rape figures into the changes.

KiplingKat872: You will also notice Americans are a very controlling culture. As much as we claim to love freedom, we are ready to get into everyone's business, from telling the neighbors what they can do in their bedroom to dictating policy to nations on the other side of the world.

Not sure that has much to do with rape statistics, ze Tschermans here are about the biggest busybody neighbor controlling rule oriented culture around and the numbers are rather low.


Because rape is about control. Sex is just the means by which the rapist dominates and degrades their victim.

Anyone who knows anything about rape knows that.

See the for all this discussion of "drunken sex" the drunken college kid who got out of controll is the minority of rapists. Most rapists are predators and usually are sober while looking for a vulnerable victim.

One friend of mine said that when he was in college, one of the guys in his dorm would cruise the halls after closing time, looking for dorm rooms where the girl had passed out drunk and forgotten to lock the door.

That is more the attitude of most rapists.
 
2012-02-14 12:48:38 AM  

WhyteRaven74: True, though after 26 years you'd figure there'd be similar papers presenting more recent statistics and possibly other insights. Then again, one has to consider the source that mentioned the paper in the first place.


It's still a good study. More recent replication aside, it'd still be worth citing to examine historical trends and statistics.
 
2012-02-14 12:49:15 AM  
not all rape is the same.
 
2012-02-14 12:49:44 AM  

KiplingKat872: Because rape is about control. Sex is just the means by which the rapist dominates and degrades their victim.


Well if so, Germany being a far more controlling society (and one where gender discrimination is quite advanced, still many people believe a womans place is "kinder, küche, kirche" - "children, kitchen, church") it makes me curious as to why the numbers here are so low.


See the for all this discussion of "drunken sex" the drunken college kid who got out of controll is the minority of rapists. Most rapists are predators and usually are sober while looking for a vulnerable victim.

One friend of mine said that when he was in college, one of the guys in his dorm would cruise the halls after closing time, looking for dorm rooms where the girl had passed out drunk and forgotten to lock the door.


Sick fark. Which studies are you going to that say the prevelence of serial predators? Everything I saw cited generally says its more acquaintance based and in almost half of all instances alcohol use by both parties was evidenced. I'm not calling you out as you have likely researched more on it than myself, just curious.
 
2012-02-14 12:51:18 AM  

skepticultist: KiplingKat872: Maybe the women you have dated need to use booze to enjoy sex with you, but don't speak for all of us.

That's a pretty typical personal attack, based on nothing but malignant speculation. I don't date women who drink to the point of inebriation, and I never have (which has more to do with the fact that I was raised by an alcoholic and can't stand being around drunk people than anything else). I recognize that has had the effect of greatly narrowing the field of women that I am willing to date, and thus limited my opportunities for sex.

None of which has fark all to do with the point I'm making.

I love the way every single rape thread on Fark turns into, "But if I can't get women hammered, I'm never going to get laid!"

This is not a matter of "getting women hammered." This is a matter of women getting themselves hammered as a means of facilitating sex. The reality is that if you limit yourself to relationships with women who don't get hammered as a means of facilitating sex, you will have less opportunities for sex, and for casual sex in particular.

Maybe it would help to teach boys that girls are people too, worthy of the same respect other boys are. Then maybe as they get older teaching them that as women are human beings just like men, they do not exist for sexual self gratification.

This is not an attitude that is limited to one gender. Young people, people between the ages of 16 and 24, are primarily interested in each other for self-gratifying reasons. Because young people are immature. This is true of both men and women.

Young women want to have sex, and they want to have sex without having to get married and be committed to a single man. Young women want to have casual, meaningless sex for their own pleasure and gratification. That is perfectly acceptable and their right.

It is also men's right to desire the exact same thing that women desire. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot celebrate women's sexual liberation and demand for women the freedom to engage in casual sexual relationships while simultaneously demonizing men who desire sexual liberation and the freedom to engage in casual sexual relationships as being disrespectful of women.

Maybe that is where educating boys should start.

Again, educating men in a way that does not reflect the reality they will encounter will never be effective. It's really no different that anti-drug education: If you lie to children about the harmful effects of marijuana, you will not reduce usage of drugs, because their own experience will reveal that you were lying to them and cause them to dismiss what they were taught as miseducation.


This is not about having casual sexual relationships, this is about choice. When your "sexual liberation" includes riding roughshod over the free will of others, that's just being a dick. Possibly a rapist dick.

But you don't want boys to see women as human beings and be responsible for their own sexual behavior. As far as you are concerned, as soon as alcohol touches a woman's lips, she's asking for it.

Go fark yourself.
 
2012-02-14 12:54:57 AM  
Holy shiat I am glad it wasn't a man saying that! Still disgusting but at least us ball bearing types aren't the only ones capable of being colossal assholes.

Here's a good idea, rather than chuckle and say "what did these 'women' expect, they had on a tight BDU, shaking that spare ammo like you wouldn't believe, she obviously wanted to be field stripped and cleaned." Come down like a metric ton of bricks on the offenders. If they're willing to rape fellow service people, what are they going to do to people they feel not the slightest kinship with? It'd be a war crime if they did it to an enemy. I believe that most men are decent, like most women -- the biatch in the article and some of the commentators notwithstanding I doubt you'd lose very much in the way of good soldier material by running an all out campaign against sexual abuse perpetrators.
 
2012-02-14 12:55:39 AM  
i had to spend the night in the felony tank after beating somebody to a pulp for trying to get with a passed out girl.

/csb
 
2012-02-14 12:56:34 AM  

Kome: skepticultist: You're entirely right on that point. These rapes would not occur if men choose to abstain from having sex with women who use alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate sex.

Do you actually think those are the only instances that make a woman claim she was raped?


Of course not. They are merely the largest portion of rapes affecting adult women. Or more accurately, the largest portion of rapes affecting adult women affect women who act exactly like women who use alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate sex without the intention to facilitate sex. The vast majority of rapes are better described as incidents of child molestation, which is an entirely different issue which education will do nothing to prevent.

I'm starting to understand why you only seem to have sex with drunk women. No one sober would choose to sleep with you. Most of the rest of the people on the planet, however, seem to manage to have lots of enjoyable, consensual, amazing sex while sober.

I've never had sex with a drunk woman.

You are simply living in denial of the reality of how young people behave. You're right that many people manage to have lots of enjoyable, consensual, amazing sex while sober. It is also true that many people enjoy going to parties and bars and getting loaded before having sex with strangers. It is also true that 80% of rapes where the victim is female and between the ages of 16 and 24 involve alcohol, and occur in what can best be described as a "party atmosphere."

Nobody believes that most women want to be raped. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding that men believe. That isn't going to happen. You will gain no traction with that strategy for reducing rape.

No. I don't even know where the hell you're coming with that.


You claimed that men having sex with women who are drunk is immoral and rape. If that is true then ipso facto many women apparently desire to be raped, because many women are using alcohol as a means of facilitating casual sexual encounters.
 
2012-02-14 12:58:27 AM  

make me some tea: This is disgusting, even for FoxNews.

The fact that that woman's mic wasn't cut after saying sh*t like that on live TV is even more disgusting. Talk about contributing to the moral decay of society, FoxNews is engineering it.


THIS
 
2012-02-14 12:58:42 AM  

Jormungandr: Holy shiat I am glad it wasn't a man saying that! Still disgusting but at least us ball bearing types aren't the only ones capable of being colossal assholes.

Here's a good idea, rather than chuckle and say "what did these 'women' expect, they had on a tight BDU, shaking that spare ammo like you wouldn't believe, she obviously wanted to be field stripped and cleaned." Come down like a metric ton of bricks on the offenders. If they're willing to rape fellow service people, what are they going to do to people they feel not the slightest kinship with? It'd be a war crime if they did it to an enemy. I believe that most men are decent, like most women -- the biatch in the article and some of the commentators notwithstanding I doubt you'd lose very much in the way of good soldier material by running an all out campaign against sexual abuse perpetrators.


you mean if they could rape a fellow soldier, they could rape, beat and/or murder unarmed civilians when deployed in combat situations?

omg
 
2012-02-14 12:59:01 AM  

lilplatinum: KiplingKat872: Because rape is about control. Sex is just the means by which the rapist dominates and degrades their victim.

Well if so, Germany being a far more controlling society (and one where gender discrimination is quite advanced, still many people believe a womans place is "kinder, küche, kirche" - "children, kitchen, church") it makes me curious as to why the numbers here are so low.


See the for all this discussion of "drunken sex" the drunken college kid who got out of controll is the minority of rapists. Most rapists are predators and usually are sober while looking for a vulnerable victim.

One friend of mine said that when he was in college, one of the guys in his dorm would cruise the halls after closing time, looking for dorm rooms where the girl had passed out drunk and forgotten to lock the door.


Sick fark. Which studies are you going to that say the prevelence of serial predators? Everything I saw cited generally says its more acquaintance based and in almost half of all instances alcohol use by both parties was evidenced. I'm not calling you out as you have likely researched more on it than myself, just curious.


If you read my Boobies to you in this thread, there is a relatively recent (in the last couple years) survey of incarcerated rapist thst found that 85% of them were repeat offenders with and average of six rapes each. They also found these men were also more likely to have been arrested for othet violent crimes and engage in both spousal and child abuse.

I'm on my mobile, so I can dig it up for you tomorrow.

Yes, they are aquaintences, but that does not mean they were all pals out for a friendly drink together.

"If so..." How can you claim to know anything about rape and not know that? And I never said it was the one factor, but that it contributes.
 
2012-02-14 01:00:15 AM  

Popular Opinion: i had to spend the night in the felony tank after beating somebody to a pulp for trying to get with a passed out girl.

/csb


I wish to buy you a beer.
 
2012-02-14 01:02:12 AM  

Popular Opinion: i had to spend the night in the felony tank after beating somebody to a pulp for trying to get with a passed out girl.

/csb


If true, on behalf of women everywhere, Thank you. :)
 
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