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(Think Progress)   In keeping with the Right's War on Women, FoxNews pundit advocates the raping of female members of the military, saying "What did they expect?"   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 1120
    More: Obvious, Fox News, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, pundits  
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11104 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Feb 2012 at 4:24 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-13 06:27:18 PM  

lilplatinum: I hate how even suggesting that one has to take some responsibility for their safety is somehow seen as 'justifying rape'. When I got blind stinking drunk and made the dumb decision of walking through the ghetto and getting myself mugged, I certainly should have made a better choice for my safety and I can say that without somehow making it 'okay' that some scumbags jumped me.


You do know that's not how the majority of rapes happen right? Most of them aren't done by strangers? Many of them are done in a woman's own home, or at a friend's place, etc? (and a woman walking alone through a bad neighborhood at night most likely didn't arbitrarily decide to do it- there's a fair chance she lives around there and it was the only way she could get home.)

By saying that women who get drunk are responsible for their own rapes, you're basically saying that women are not ever allowed to drink, are not ever allowed to go one moment in their lives without guarding against rape... and if they do, and they get raped, they're partially to blame for it.

And like I said before... the same people who go for this logic are the FIRST to scream about radical feminists when women dare to talk about being uncomfortable with how men approach them sometimes. The flak Rebecca Watson got for daring to mention that a guy hitting on her at 4 in the morning in an elevator scared her was a pretty interesting look at that.

Can we stop bringing the "Women need to protect themselves" crap into every discussion about rape? You do realize that women already know this right? Many of us have taken classes related to this. All of us grew up hearing about the need to protect ourselves. But there's always someone who's happy to bring it up like it's a novel concept. It's not.
 
2012-02-13 06:27:31 PM  
What did they expect? How about to do their job and have their co workers do their jobs without physical and mental abuse.
 
2012-02-13 06:27:50 PM  

birchman: To all the rape apologists in this thread, an eternity in hell is too good for you.


oooooo what about an eternity in hell getting raped?
I mean they are already dead and getting punished. we should go all the way ...
 
2012-02-13 06:27:58 PM  

watson.t.hamster: contrapunctus: watson.t.hamster:

Only if "they" referred to the victims. It seems obvious from her statement (the full one, not the 4 word snip taken out of context) that she was referring to the pentagon, particularly to a study they had done finding rapes were increasing as more women served.

Wrong.

She was blaming the decision to allow women to serve in the first place, which is why her commentary (like clockwork) started with the usual laundry list of Republican 'culture warrior' grievances.

You are wrong.

TROTTA: But while all of this is going on, just a few weeks ago, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta commented on a new Pentagon report on sexual abuse in the military. I think they have actually discovered there is a difference between men and women. And the sexual abuse report says that there has been, since 2006, a 64% increase in violent sexual assaults. Now, what did they expect?

Rape victims were not directly referenced in that first bit. The pronoun thus goes to one of those two. Since it's plural she would have to be referring to the pentagon.

/freaking pronouns, how do they work?




As someone else already stated:

someonelse: Let's assume she was referring to the Pentagon. She's specifically saying the Pentagon should have expected that there would be a 64% increase in the rate of violent sexual assaults since 2006. Because why?


Take your time explaining that one. I'll be making some popcorn.
 
2012-02-13 06:28:40 PM  

sprawl15: Weaver95: How can you tell when you've been raped 'too much'? is that even a measurable standard?

One of the important things one remains aware of during a rape is hydration. If you notice chafing, you should request your attacker pause momentarily and hydrate from your canteen. On yellow flag (or higher) rape days, five minutes of break must be made available for every hour of rape. On black flag days, roofies must be used prior to rape to reduce the effort of all parties involved and mitigate the chance of heatstroke.


you put WAY too much thought into that....
 
2012-02-13 06:29:24 PM  

namatad: birchman: To all the rape apologists in this thread, an eternity in hell is too good for you.

oooooo what about an eternity in hell getting raped?
I mean they are already dead and getting punished. we should go all the way ...


I was going to include something about being eternally sodomized with a chainsaw while being forced to blow Hitler, but even that sounded too lenient.
 
2012-02-13 06:29:29 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Debeo Summa Credo: contrapunctus: Debeo Summa Credo:
So she didn't say she blamed rape victims for being raped, but because she works for Fox news we can assume she thinks they should be blamed? Wow.

"What did they expect?"

"What did they expect?"

"What did they expect?"

That's blaming the victim. End of story. Notwithstanding the repugnant nature of this statement all on its own, I was making the point that EVERYTHING Liz Trotta says is in service to the right-wing agenda, not logical discourse.

They being the farking Pentagon! What did they expect would happen when they put women with testosterone ravaged grunts? The women aren't being blamed - they're the victims. The grunts aren't being absolved - they're still rapists. The pentagon should have farking realized that this would happen! If you want women in the armed forces serving alongside men, some of those women are going to be raped! Why is this surprising or shocking?

Whoops. I should add that this is what she is saying, not what I agree with. I'm not opining one way or another on whether women should serve in forward roles.


So do you or don't you think our men in uniform can and should be expected to control their sexually violent impulses?
 
2012-02-13 06:29:50 PM  

watson.t.hamster: contrapunctus: watson.t.hamster:

Only if "they" referred to the victims. It seems obvious from her statement (the full one, not the 4 word snip taken out of context) that she was referring to the pentagon, particularly to a study they had done finding rapes were increasing as more women served.

Wrong.

She was blaming the decision to allow women to serve in the first place, which is why her commentary (like clockwork) started with the usual laundry list of Republican 'culture warrior' grievances.

You are wrong.

TROTTA: But while all of this is going on, just a few weeks ago, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta commented on a new Pentagon report on sexual abuse in the military. I think they have actually discovered there is a difference between men and women. And the sexual abuse report says that there has been, since 2006, a 64% increase in violent sexual assaults. Now, what did they expect?

Rape victims were not directly referenced in that first bit. The pronoun thus goes to one of those two. Since it's plural she would have to be referring to the pentagon.

/freaking pronouns, how do they work?


TROTTA: We once again have women, feminists, wanting to be warriors and victims all at the same time.

/Freaking context. How does it work?
 
2012-02-13 06:29:58 PM  
I'm so confused now.
 
2012-02-13 06:30:13 PM  

watson.t.hamster: TROTTA: But while all of this is going on, just a few weeks ago, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta commented on a new Pentagon report on sexual abuse in the military. I think they have actually discovered there is a difference between men and women. And the sexual abuse report says that there has been, since 2006, a 64% increase in violent sexual assaults. Now, what did they expect?

Rape victims were not directly referenced in that first bit. The pronoun thus goes to one of those two. Since it's plural she would have to be referring to the pentagon.

/freaking pronouns, how do they work?


Ha! You deserve this more than anybody:

img838.imageshack.us
 
2012-02-13 06:30:26 PM  

Genevieve Marie: By saying that women who get drunk are responsible for their own rapes, you're basically saying that women are not ever allowed to drink, are not ever allowed to go one moment in their lives without guarding against rape... and if they do, and they get raped, they're partially to blame for it.


obviously, we need to lock women up in order to protect them from rape.
 
2012-02-13 06:30:27 PM  

Kome: Kazrath: Often times there is plenty of blame to go around.

Depends on what we mean by blame. If you want to talk about all the causal influences that led up to the rape, yea... but then everyone deserves some blame for every rape, including you and me and the Pope and butterflies flapping their wings in Africa. If we want to talk about the immediate, proximal cause that is responsible for initiating and carrying through with the act of raping a person, then blame lies solely with the rapist and not one iota with the victim.

Are there things we can do to protect ourselves? Yes. But that doesn't mean that either (a) doing them will protect us 100% of the time or that (b) failing to do one or more of those protective measures justifies any of the negative acts other people choose to inflict on us. And this applies to more than just rape. Theft, murder, assault, and so on. Otherwise, you're to blame at least a little bit for every crime someone commits or will commit against you.


Exactly.
 
2012-02-13 06:31:01 PM  

Kome: If we want to talk about the immediate, proximal cause that is responsible for initiating and carrying through with the act of raping a person, then blame lies solely with the rapist and not one iota with the victim.


Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: do you think this also applies in cases of statutory rape where the victim has been deliberately misleading about their age?
 
2012-02-13 06:31:49 PM  
I hope the Republican candidates run with this line of reasoning.

Anything to hasten the death of this once grand party; now the refuge of aging theocrats and misogynists.
 
2012-02-13 06:32:03 PM  

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: By saying that women who get drunk are responsible for their own rapes, you're basically saying that women are not ever allowed to drink, are not ever allowed to go one moment in their lives without guarding against rape... and if they do, and they get raped, they're partially to blame for it.

obviously, we need to lock women up in order to protect them from rape.


Clearly. Let's just hope that the government issued uniforms in these rape protection facilities won't be too sexy and show our faces or anything, because then we'd probably get blamed for being raped by the guard.
 
2012-02-13 06:32:15 PM  

The Numbers: Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: do you think this also applies in cases of statutory rape where the victim has been deliberately misleading about their age?


Had a tragedy, did you?
 
2012-02-13 06:32:44 PM  
i1089.photobucket.com
 
2012-02-13 06:32:47 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

/wait, what were we talking about again?
//wouldn't expect anything less from FNC
 
2012-02-13 06:32:51 PM  

bartink: Except that's exactly what he said. Read what she responded to. No one is saying that people shouldn't take precautions to avoid being victimized. Its saying that its repugnant to blame rape victims for their rape.


I suppose it depends on how the word "blame" is used. If it means you made a poor choice that you could have avoided then I would agree. If it means "and everything that happened afterwards is entirely your fault and the perpetrators are let off the hook because of your short skirt" then I disagree.

Philip Francis Queeg: watson.t.hamster: Got drunk, passed out a frat party after making out with every guy there and getting them to buy you beer by telling them how horny you were and you were raped? There was literally nothing you could have done to prevent that.

/it's not blaming the victim necessarily to say certain things increase your odds of being victimized.
//and we have no problem doing that for just about every other kind of victim.

Have you ever actually talked to a rape victim?

Other than at your frat parties in college that is.


Rape threads always bring out the crazies. What would in every other single scenario be seen as common sense becomes a vicious attack on all womyn kind.

thamike: watson.t.hamster: So because of Roger Ailes this woman in fact said something that she did not say.

Got it.

I know it's hard to swallow, but if what these people say is so horrifying to you, maybe you should find a new group of role models.


Oh sure Mr. Ailes is the devil no doubt. He is the worst person who has ever lived and probably eats babies well done and covered with ketchup (yech). Absolutely the worst human being imaginable. No, worst entity imaginable. No he's even worse than that. No doubt.

However the part I'm not getting and perhaps you can help me with this, is how his evil is actually able to change what this woman was recorded as saying?

So again I don't doubt that he is an entire galaxy of evil until himself I just don't see how he can change recorded history with that evil.
 
2012-02-13 06:33:38 PM  

The Numbers: Kome: If we want to talk about the immediate, proximal cause that is responsible for initiating and carrying through with the act of raping a person, then blame lies solely with the rapist and not one iota with the victim.

Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: do you think this also applies in cases of statutory rape where the victim has been deliberately misleading about their age?


statutatory rape is a little weird - 200 years ago, a 20 year old landed noble could marry (and bed) a 14 year old bride and nobody would think twice about it. hmm...come to think of it, that actually hasn't changed much....just replace 'rich guy' with 'landed nobility' and we're back to the past all over again.

wait - what was the question again?
 
2012-02-13 06:34:35 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: By saying that women who get drunk are responsible for their own rapes, you're basically saying that women are not ever allowed to drink, are not ever allowed to go one moment in their lives without guarding against rape... and if they do, and they get raped, they're partially to blame for it.

obviously, we need to lock women up in order to protect them from rape.

Clearly. Let's just hope that the government issued uniforms in these rape protection facilities won't be too sexy and show our faces or anything, because then we'd probably get blamed for being raped by the guard.


upload.wikimedia.org

This is the proposed uniform.
 
2012-02-13 06:35:24 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Clearly. Let's just hope that the government issued uniforms in these rape protection facilities won't be too sexy and show our faces or anything, because then we'd probably get blamed for being raped by the guard.


authoritarians are weird people. they really do seem to think that MORE rules and harsher punishments for everyone anywhere are the way to run a society.
 
2012-02-13 06:35:36 PM  

Genevieve Marie: sprawl15: Genevieve Marie: If I read this, I'm going to finally get angry enough to spontaneously develop an aneurysm, just so I can leave this world, aren't I?

It wouldn't have managed to be more offensive if she told all the women complaining about the rapes to climb down off their rag.

Man, it's freaking lovely when women who benefit from all of the hard work done by feminists react with the old tried and true cookie from the patriarchy approach: "I don't demand rights like all those stupid whores! I'm important, like you are! I believe like you believe! If women don't want to be raped, they should stay home and not go tempting men to rape them! Can I please have my cookie now!!"

Fox is big on hiring women who are more than willing to go for the cookie from the patriarchy. It means they get to air sexist views and not get called out as much because a woman said it, so it's totally ok!

I have a headache.


Try being told that women shouldn't work/attend school and minorities are less intelligent by a female immigrant from a brown country. Sometimes I feel like debating this stuff with people that confused is like talking to a bowl of shiat - but not as productive.

/she was also a card carrying Republican
//and a tenured professor
///don't mess with Texas
 
2012-02-13 06:35:59 PM  

Genevieve Marie: You do know that's not how the majority of rapes happen right? Most of them aren't done by strangers? Many of them are done in a woman's own home, or at a friend's place, etc? (and a woman walking alone through a bad neighborhood at night most likely didn't arbitrarily decide to do it- there's a fair chance she lives around there and it was the only way she could get home.)


Certainly there are tons of scenarios, but to act like there are no mitigating factors one can perform to lessen your chances of encountering danger is ludicrous. Not to mention that your assumption that rape victims are the only ones who get criticized for bad decisions ignores the fact that we do this for all sorts of victims of crimes, male and female. I'm guessing alcohol is a common factor throughout rapes?

Now when you get asshats like the fox news announcer who take this way too far then I can see how it gets grating.

By saying that women who get drunk are responsible for their own rapes, you're basically saying that women are not ever allowed to drink, are not ever allowed to go one moment in their lives without guarding against rape... and if they do, and they get raped, they're partially to blame for it.

By saying that men who drive drunk are responsible for their own decisions, I am basically saying that men are not ever allowed to drink.

Wait, of course I never suggested that. However when one starts drinking one has to take at least some responisbility if you get shiathoused drunk and make a bad choice, being hammered doesn't absolve you. It doesn't mean someone else who takes advantage of your drunk ass (regardless of your gender and the manner in which they do it) isn't guilty either, but when you choose to get hammered you also do gain some culpability with your actions - as any of us who have done stupid shiat while drunk can testify to. Typically (in my experience) the people who cry outrage if such logic is applied to women have no problem damning drunk people who get themselves farked over in other ways as a result of being drunk.

Can we stop bringing the "Women need to protect themselves" crap into every discussion about rape?

I was responding to something you brought up, as if a guy getting hammered and being raped wouldn't get several pages of comments mocking his poor decision making habits here...
 
2012-02-13 06:36:18 PM  

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: Clearly. Let's just hope that the government issued uniforms in these rape protection facilities won't be too sexy and show our faces or anything, because then we'd probably get blamed for being raped by the guard.

authoritarians are weird people. they really do seem to think that MORE rules and harsher punishments for everyone anywhere are the way to run a society.


The frightening thing is how many people they manage to convince with that line of thinking.
 
2012-02-13 06:36:59 PM  

watson.t.hamster: Philip Francis Queeg: watson.t.hamster: Got drunk, passed out a frat party after making out with every guy there and getting them to buy you beer by telling them how horny you were and you were raped? There was literally nothing you could have done to prevent that.

/it's not blaming the victim necessarily to say certain things increase your odds of being victimized.
//and we have no problem doing that for just about every other kind of victim.

Have you ever actually talked to a rape victim?

Other than at your frat parties in college that is.

Rape threads always bring out the crazies. What would in every other single scenario be seen as common sense becomes a vicious attack on all womyn kind.


So I take that as a "No, I've never actually talked to a victim of rape, it might negatively effect my ability to feel superior to them."
 
2012-02-13 06:37:01 PM  

Raharu: Mike Chewbacca: o of the 3,158 sexual crimes reported, only 104 convictions were made. That's a whopping 3% conviction rate. And that's excluding the 19,000 UNREPORTED rapes that year. When you fail to punish the offenders, of COURSE the rapes are going to keep happening.

If... If they are unreported... how do you know unless you did ... oh god.

I need an Adult.


Wow, your tiny brain can't possibly fathom how they'd figure out how many unreported rapes there are every year. Look how dumb you are!
 
2012-02-13 06:37:17 PM  

The Numbers:
Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: do you think this also applies in cases of statutory rape where the victim has been deliberately misleading about their age?


Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: are you really this stupid or is this an act for attention?
 
2012-02-13 06:37:39 PM  

watson.t.hamster: However the part I'm not getting and perhaps you can help me with this, is how his evil is actually able to change what this woman was recorded as saying?


Nobody's changing what she said. You are deliberately misinterpreting it. Gymnastically misinterpreting it. For whatever reason. Either your malnourished mind thinks this is what "playing the devil's advocate" is, or you're so addicted to your simple worldview that you'd actually work harder to not understand. Either way, you're still a twat in the end. And who cares about Roger Ailes?
 
2012-02-13 06:37:45 PM  

Kome: Are there things we can do to protect ourselves? Yes. But that doesn't mean that either (a) doing them will protect us 100% of the time or that (b) failing to do one or more of those protective measures justifies any of the negative acts other people choose to inflict on us. And this applies to more than just rape. Theft, murder, assault, and so on. Otherwise, you're to blame at least a little bit for every crime someone commits or will commit against you.


On some level for most crimes this is fairly true, completely random avoidable crime is not the most common type in any scenario. Doesn't mean its okay for the criminals but in hindsight there is usually something you could have done smarter.
 
2012-02-13 06:37:59 PM  

thamike: The Numbers: Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: do you think this also applies in cases of statutory rape where the victim has been deliberately misleading about their age?

Had a tragedy, did you?


Certainly not, officer. If you'll excuse me, there's someone knocking at the door...
 
2012-02-13 06:38:07 PM  

thamike: The Numbers: Not intending to be snarky, genuine question: do you think this also applies in cases of statutory rape where the victim has been deliberately misleading about their age?

Had a tragedy, did you?


He's not saying that statutory rape is ok, he's just saying that 12 year old looked like she was 15.
 
2012-02-13 06:39:08 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: Clearly. Let's just hope that the government issued uniforms in these rape protection facilities won't be too sexy and show our faces or anything, because then we'd probably get blamed for being raped by the guard.

authoritarians are weird people. they really do seem to think that MORE rules and harsher punishments for everyone anywhere are the way to run a society.

The frightening thing is how many people they manage to convince with that line of thinking.


Authoritarians are very good at scaring people, then lying about the solutions to problems they created in the first place. most authoritarians i've met have almost no sense of morality. oh they pretend that they do, and that they're doing things that 'have to be done for the greater good' but it's always with a wink and a nod. its about control - control over women, over sex, over money. control of other people's property, control over 'vice'. deep down they're terrified of the concept of free will. the idea that somewhere someone might be out there doing whatever they hell they want and enjoying life fills them with rage.
 
2012-02-13 06:41:21 PM  
I'm just gonna assume she is genuinely interested in preventing rape and phrased it very badly.
 
2012-02-13 06:41:51 PM  

lilplatinum: On some level for most crimes this is fairly true, completely random avoidable crime is not the most common type in any scenario. Doesn't mean its okay for the criminals but in hindsight there is usually something you could have done smarter.


Like not join the military (is what Trotta is saying).
 
2012-02-13 06:42:53 PM  
Dentata
The dentata is an anti-rape device employed by Y.T. It is worn in her vagina, and injects a general anesthetic into the assailant's penis upon penetration, rendering him unconscious in moments, a state said to last approximately four hours. Though the dentata is mentioned frequently, particularly when Y.T. thinks she might soon need it, Stephenson does not explain the device's specific effect until she forgets to remove it prior to sex with Raven, thus bringing their ardor to a premature halt. Its name references the vagina dentata folk tale.

interesting enough, this was REMOVED from the snowcrash wikipedia page. why?? LOL silly wikins

a certain amount of justice (new window)
 
2012-02-13 06:43:15 PM  

Mrtraveler01: As someone else already stated:

someonelse: Let's assume she was referring to the Pentagon. She's specifically saying the Pentagon should have expected that there would be a 64% increase in the rate of violent sexual assaults since 2006. Because why?

Take your time explaining that one. I'll be making some popcorn.


Not that hard. More women serving in the military plus more women serving in active combat zones (where the laws are less strictly enforced than one might imagine) plus more men suffering from PTSD and other mental issues due to extended stays plus perhaps a more aggressive effort to identify rape cases = higher recorded incidence of rape.

namatad: but you are wrong ....
these are all examples of someone actively doing something stupid.
a soldier, working on a base or in the field, is not doing anything which is actively stupid. walking patrol, got raped. Working on a chopper, got raped.


And the comment that was referencing specifically mentioned things like getting drunk or high. You're doing what the authors of this article did and are taking words out of context and implying they are referencing something other than they actually were.

in the end, no matter how retarded the victim is, the criminal is the one committing the crime.

Someone said otherwise?

Everyday, every person with any commonsense does a million things to avoid being the victim of a crime and we dont even think about those things. locking doors, avoiding dark alleys and unsafe areas. but a woman walking down the street getting jumped and raped?



Someone said women shouldn't be allowed to walk down the street without being raped? Let's get that bastard. Who was it?

thamike: watson.t.hamster: TROTTA: But while all of this is going on, just a few weeks ago, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta commented on a new Pentagon report on sexual abuse in the military. I think they have actually discovered there is a difference between men and women. And the sexual abuse report says that there has been, since 2006, a 64% increase in violent sexual assaults. Now, what did they expect?

Rape victims were not directly referenced in that first bit. The pronoun thus goes to one of those two. Since it's plural she would have to be referring to the pentagon.

/freaking pronouns, how do they work?

Ha! You deserve this more than anybody:

[img838.imageshack.us image 640x424]


Not wise to call someone stupid when the concept of pronouns baffles you.
 
2012-02-13 06:44:04 PM  

iollow: I'm just gonna assume she is genuinely interested in preventing rape and phrased it very badly.


Funny, all i got was someone with a political agenda trying to use rape as a tool, and then when confronted with the absurdity of her remarks, went a step further and tried to shrug it off as proof positive of the veracity of her initial position.
 
2012-02-13 06:44:08 PM  

lilplatinum: By saying that men who drive drunk are responsible for their own decisions, I am basically saying that men are not ever allowed to drink.


... this the crappiest analogy ever. Men make the choice to DRIVE DRUNK. Women do not make the choice to GET RAPED.


Ugh. Seriously. You're justifying some seriously farked up misogyny here, and I really don't feel like doing the thing where I devote three hours to this conversation in an attempt to educate you. Just know that you're justifying some crappy misogyny, and you're being paternalistic and privileged, and that a lot of people see through that crap when it gets started.
 
2012-02-13 06:44:15 PM  

thamike: lilplatinum: On some level for most crimes this is fairly true, completely random avoidable crime is not the most common type in any scenario. Doesn't mean its okay for the criminals but in hindsight there is usually something you could have done smarter.

Like not join the military (is what Trotta is saying).


While not joining the military should be common sense advice for anyone with the capacity for rational thought, male or female, that is certainly taking the issue entirely too far as it gets ridiculous to expect people to cloister themselves to make themselves safe and if such a reaction is actually necessary for safety then it obviously underlies serious structural and organizational problems that need to be seriously and quickly addressed.
 
2012-02-13 06:44:21 PM  

thamike: lilplatinum: On some level for most crimes this is fairly true, completely random avoidable crime is not the most common type in any scenario. Doesn't mean its okay for the criminals but in hindsight there is usually something you could have done smarter.

Like not join the military (is what Trotta is saying).


It baffles me that these folks think they can convince non-Freepers of this crap (this and the Santorum article below).

Are folks on the right really that delusion about what the majority of America thinks? Or do they just don't care?
 
2012-02-13 06:45:31 PM  

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: Clearly. Let's just hope that the government issued uniforms in these rape protection facilities won't be too sexy and show our faces or anything, because then we'd probably get blamed for being raped by the guard.

authoritarians are weird people. they really do seem to think that MORE rules and harsher punishments for everyone anywhere are the way to run a society.

The frightening thing is how many people they manage to convince with that line of thinking.

Authoritarians are very good at scaring people, then lying about the solutions to problems they created in the first place. most authoritarians i've met have almost no sense of morality. oh they pretend that they do, and that they're doing things that 'have to be done for the greater good' but it's always with a wink and a nod. its about control - control over women, over sex, over money. control of other people's property, control over 'vice'. deep down they're terrified of the concept of free will. the idea that somewhere someone might be out there doing whatever they hell they want and enjoying life fills them with rage.


Yup, I think that's an accurate take on it.
 
2012-02-13 06:45:45 PM  

watson.t.hamster: Not wise to call someone stupid when the concept of pronouns baffles you.


Are you still trying to work the pronoun angle? Do you need to see the drooling baby again, or can you scroll?
 
2012-02-13 06:46:02 PM  

watson.t.hamster: I suppose it depends on how the word "blame" is used. If it means you made a poor choice that you could have avoided then I would agree. If it means "and everything that happened afterwards is entirely your fault and the perpetrators are let off the hook because of your short skirt" then I disagree.


It means sharing in the responsibility for the crime. Its really straightforward what blame means.

For some reason, some people are unable to hold two thoughts in their head at the same time: Its wise to be cautious in the world and crimes are the fault of the criminals that commit them. What is so hard about that concept?
 
2012-02-13 06:46:24 PM  

thamike: watson.t.hamster: However the part I'm not getting and perhaps you can help me with this, is how his evil is actually able to change what this woman was recorded as saying?

Nobody's changing what she said. You are deliberately misinterpreting it.


No I'm not.

Gymnastically misinterpreting it.

Add the word "misinterpreting" to pronouns as things that completely flummox thamike.

For whatever reason. Either your malnourished mind thinks this is what "playing the devil's advocate" is, or you're so addicted to your simple worldview that you'd actually work harder to not understand. Either way, you're still a twat in the end. And who cares about Roger Ailes?

I know right? Weird that someone would bring this guy up on a thread that has nothing to do with him.
Totally idiotic and an attempt to derail the conversation.
Right?

Ok, now scroll up and see who brought this fella in to it.

/I guess we can add "the linear progression of time" to that list as well.
 
2012-02-13 06:47:14 PM  

bartink: watson.t.hamster: I suppose it depends on how the word "blame" is used. If it means you made a poor choice that you could have avoided then I would agree. If it means "and everything that happened afterwards is entirely your fault and the perpetrators are let off the hook because of your short skirt" then I disagree.

It means sharing in the responsibility for the crime. Its really straightforward what blame means.

For some reason, some people are unable to hold two thoughts in their head at the same time: Its wise to be cautious in the world and crimes are the fault of the criminals that commit them. What is so hard about that concept?


Would someone who is not cautious be fairly described as "unwise"?
 
2012-02-13 06:47:27 PM  

Genevieve Marie: ... this the crappiest analogy ever. Men make the choice to DRIVE DRUNK. Women do not make the choice to GET RAPED.


Part of the basis of getting drunk and crying rape is that being shiathoused prevents one party from giving sexual consent. The basis for this logic is that when you are intoxicated you lose the decision making capacity that makes you fully accountable for your actions.

Unless you choose to drive drunk....

Ugh. Seriously. You're justifying some seriously farked up misogyny here, and I really don't feel like doing the thing where I devote three hours to this conversation in an attempt to educate you. Just know that you're justifying some crappy misogyny, and you're being paternalistic and privileged, and that a lot of people see through that crap when it gets started

Love these topics, any attempt to have a discussion that doesn't parrot the prevailing sentiment is ultimately tossed around as 'misogyny'. Almost as productive as arguing with christians about abortion..
 
2012-02-13 06:47:53 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Are folks on the right really that delusion about what the majority of America thinks? Or do they just don't care?


Look what's happening in this thread. It's like a pop-up/scratch 'n' sniff/paint-by-numbers version of right wing self-mindf*ck.
 
2012-02-13 06:47:56 PM  

Genevieve Marie: You do know that's not how the majority of rapes happen right? Most of them aren't done by strangers? Many of them are done in a woman's own home, or at a friend's place, etc? (and a woman walking alone through a bad neighborhood at night most likely didn't arbitrarily decide to do it- there's a fair chance she lives around there and it was the only way she could get home.)

By saying that women who get drunk are responsible for their own rapes, you're basically saying that women are not ever allowed to drink, are not ever allowed to go one moment in their lives without guarding against rape... and if they do, and they get raped, they're partially to blame for it.

And like I said before... the same people who go for this logic are the FIRST to scream about radical feminists when women dare to talk about being uncomfortable with how men approach them sometimes. The flak Rebecca Watson got for daring to mention that a guy hitting on her at 4 in the morning in an elevator scared her was a pretty interesting look at that.

Can we stop bringing the "Women need to protect themselves" crap into every discussion about rape? You do realize that women already know this right? Many of us have taken classes related to this. All of us grew up hearing about the need to protect ourselves. But there's always someone who's happy to bring it up like it's a novel concept. It's not.


This.

Sexual assult is on the back of EVERY woman's mind in a way that is completely unique to our gender. You don't see men being afraid of getting drunk and stupid. You don't see men being afraid of getting unsolicited attention or being hit on by strangers. You don't see men being afraid to be alone in public the way women have to. Becuase it's drilled into every woman's head that there are predators out there and that women are, by and large, prey.

So yah, don't give me this "women need to protect themselves" bullshiat. Women need to not be preyed upon. Just like Children need to not be preyed upon or the elderly need to not be preyed upon. We are people, not prey.
 
2012-02-13 06:48:32 PM  

thamike: watson.t.hamster: Not wise to call someone stupid when the concept of pronouns baffles you.

Are you still trying to work the pronoun angle? Do you need to see the drooling baby again, or can you scroll?


So it doesn't matter that she was referencing something other than what you claim? Because it kind of changes the entire meaning of the conversation if you manipulate it the way you have.

/what if "they" referred to the Jews during the holocaust?
 
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