If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(CNN)   United States now lags behind the rest of the world in math and science. However, U.S. teens can still kick any country's ass in "Grand Theft Auto"   (schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 117
    More: Fail, White House Science Fair, Sputnik  
•       •       •

1840 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Feb 2012 at 8:41 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



117 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-02-13 11:01:34 AM

DON.MAC: I have a few Finnish friends. One that is now driving forklifts saw one of my papers and said "I don't like (some Finnish word), it makes my head hurt" and I said what was that and the other two were arguing if it meant calculus or integration in English. Had these been American or Aussie girls, I would have been very surprised they even knew the topic, let alone could argue over phrasing. They average 27 and they are a gardener, fork lift driver and a graphics layout designer because that is what they enjoy doing.


If writing intelligible paragraphs is your night job, for the love of god don't quit your day job.
 
2012-02-13 11:04:25 AM
If there weren't jobs for STEM in the USA, companies wouldn't be paying for 85,000 H1B visas every year. Where are these jobs? Silicon Valley for starters, where the average STEM salary broke $100,000 last year.
 
2012-02-13 11:16:57 AM

natazha: If there weren't jobs for STEM in the USA, companies wouldn't be paying for 85,000 H1B visas every year.


The number of jobs is irrelevant. They're trying to flood the labor market to apply downward pressure on wages. It's dangerously short-sighted, but politically easy to do in the midst of a strong anti-intellectual movement.
 
2012-02-13 11:22:55 AM

FlameDuck: DON.MAC: poisonedpawn78: The actual results page (new window)

Can I repeat what I said about the Finns...

Please do. I'm not sure what your point was. Finns didn't know the word for Calculus, but knew the concept?


No, there was an odd discussion about calculus vs its sub parts with three people that I would have never expected to know about any of that. All three look like wild women. One likes her job driving fork lifts... the other has been kicked out of way too many places for dancing on the tables and the other one has a charisma that is outstanding yet they all know deep math which they ignore unless they need it and they don't need it except to annoy geeky guys.
 
2012-02-13 11:23:49 AM

DeltaPunch:
If writing intelligible paragraphs is your night job, for the love of god don't quit your day job.

Computer says it parses...
 
2012-02-13 11:24:27 AM
What up. Our problem is a significant minority of our churlins embrace a culture of ignorance. No, I'm not talking about creationism mythology either, nomesayin.
 
2012-02-13 11:26:29 AM

Big_Fat_Liar: What up. Our problem is a significant minority of our churlins embrace a culture of ignorance. No, I'm not talking about creationism mythology either, nomesayin.


Somehow, I do. I don't know how I do, but I do.
 
2012-02-13 11:28:09 AM
lohphat

Ths is what you get when you don't leve some kids behind and try to inject creationism into the curriculum.

Good lord you're a farking idiot.

Compare the students being put out when Creationism WAS the curriculum to the students today and today's kids wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.


I'm not defending or even taking a side in the religious debate. Your argument is just ignorant.
 
2012-02-13 11:30:54 AM
Mugato

I think "lags behind the rest of the world" is over stating things just a tad.

You must have a family member or date someone in the education system and are trying to defend their utter uselessness.
 
2012-02-13 11:43:11 AM

lohphat:
We have to import H1B engineers to keep many industries running because all our "best and brightest" get majors in "communications" or MBAs.


That in and of itself isn't the whole of the problem. You can train those people to be engineers on the job; sure the starting salary is going to be a lot lower but your company gets an engineer that knows how your company likes to do things at the end of it.

Another component is that there has been a shift since the late 90's (probably before) for "oven ready staff", slashing of training budgets and such. These days it's pretty much a given that whoever you work for isn't going to offer training and staff development; you've got to pay for that yourself. Not that wages have increased to compensate for this expenditure.

We're reaping the rewards for those decisions now. But anyway, back to the topic and education.
 
2012-02-13 11:44:51 AM

DON.MAC: they all know deep math which they ignore unless they need it and they don't need it except to annoy geeky guys.


I would argue it makes them better citizens. That's good for everyone.

Individually I don't have enough voting power to overcome derpheads voting against their own interests.
 
2012-02-13 11:46:01 AM

meyerkev: meyerkev: Where's that link where they broke the US into 5 countries by poverty levels, compared each of those "countries" to the countries with similar poverty rankings, and each "country" beat out every single other country in its group?

Found it: Link (new window)

/Short version: Given equal students, the US wins every time.


Bears repeating. We are the melting pot, a very heterogeneous society and we are being compared to populations that are decidedly more homogenous. Compare the subset of our students that are most like the students in these other countries and these differences vanish.

With respect to the demand for foreign STEM workers. What I think would help is the having U.S. graduate training programs give preference to domestic students. Plenty of Americans out there that want a masters in engineering, but can't get one because Xinjou and Rajesh have better GRE scores. How it came to be they have better GRE scores (i.e. China is notorious for cheating on these types of tests), is another matter entirely.
 
2012-02-13 11:55:30 AM

OnlyM3: Mugato

I think "lags behind the rest of the world" is over stating things just a tad.
You must have a family member or date someone in the education system and are trying to defend their utter uselessness.


No, I just read TFA.
 
2012-02-13 12:12:18 PM

meyerkev: DerAppie: meyerkev: meyerkev: Where's that link where they broke the US into 5 countries by poverty levels, compared each of those "countries" to the countries with similar poverty rankings, and each "country" beat out every single other country in its group?

Found it: Link (new window)

/Short version: Given equal students, the US wins every time.

i refer you to the first sentence of that article:
"There are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies, and statistics."--Mark Twain



       Poverty rate PISA score
US  less than 10% 551
NL 9%                508

Note that the poverty rate for the US is schools and for the Netherlands is national. What would happen if we used the poverty rate for schools instead of national figures for the other countries? A few bad schools will down the PISA score on a national level, so comparing the best schools of the US to the national score of another country is retarded.

I freely admit that I don't know how PISA is calculated. Would just a few schools make a huge difference? Is the PISA the mean, the median, some wierd combo? Also:

NL 9% 508
U.S. (25-49.9%) 502

I don't care how it's calculated, there's no way that the "average" school in the Netherlands has that level.


My issue isn't with the figures but with the methodology. They compare one group with an average score of 9 on the independant variable with another group with a cut-off point of 10 on the independant variable. The Dutch average poverty level can contain scores from 0% to 100% while the US poverty level won't exceed 10%. As education level correlates strongly with socioeconomic status it is not strange that the best 10% as a group score better than a group with 9% as average level.
 
2012-02-13 12:30:13 PM

OnlyM3: lohphat

Ths is what you get when you don't leve some kids behind and try to inject creationism into the curriculum.
Good lord you're a farking idiot.

Compare the students being put out when Creationism WAS the curriculum to the students today and today's kids wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.


I'm not defending or even taking a side in the religious debate. Your argument is just ignorant.


LOLWUT

I'm an American student and now I use actual real science, not the bible-based kind, to do research and simulate the quantum mechanics of plastic solar cells. Kids today would destroy the kids of yesterday in both intelligence and amount of knowledge. As for the bit about schools in other countries being so much better, the best students in college classrooms today are Americans, and the best universities are in America (that's why people get here however they can in order to go to school here!). So don't believe everything you read and don't assume that 3rd grade math scores have any real correlation to what a person's future holds.
 
2012-02-13 12:36:59 PM
I had the most amazing meeting a week ago when one of our clients showed up for a visit. It was a sit-down between our company and theirs. We were going to be covering everything from facilities & processes to IT & physical security. When it was my turn to speak about our IT status, before I began one of the executives from the visiting clients said, "Alright. Lets listen to the nerd talk."

My boss immediately interrupted and asked the gentleman to apologize to me. I think I was more caught off guard then anything else. My boss said something along the lines of, "HellRaisingHoosier is a very important part of our team, he has saved our company a lot of money during his time here, and has increased our efficiency and preparedness 100-fold. It's rather rude of you to dismiss his chosen profession when he is just as important as everyone else at this table."

The visitor said gave a sheepish apology and the meeting moved along from there.

/we still have the client .... which is nice.
 
2012-02-13 12:40:01 PM

AiryAnne: [farm8.staticflickr.com image 240x63]


Typos by autocorrect, laziness to do farkall about it by LohPhat.
 
2012-02-13 12:46:57 PM

Pochas: OnlyM3: lohphat

Ths is what you get when you don't leve some kids behind and try to inject creationism into the curriculum.
Good lord you're a farking idiot.

Compare the students being put out when Creationism WAS the curriculum to the students today and today's kids wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.


I'm not defending or even taking a side in the religious debate. Your argument is just ignorant.

LOLWUT

I'm an American student and now I use actual real science, not the bible-based kind, to do research and simulate the quantum mechanics of plastic solar cells. Kids today would destroy the kids of yesterday in both intelligence and amount of knowledge. As for the bit about schools in other countries being so much better, the best students in college classrooms today are Americans, and the best universities are in America (that's why people get here however they can in order to go to school here!). So don't believe everything you read and don't assume that 3rd grade math scores have any real correlation to what a person's future holds.


It would seem that, regardless of the quality of our students, we did accomplish more as a country back when more people were of the sub-genius, sky-wizard believer type.

I think he was saying that there is less correlation between religious belief and test scores than militant atheists would like to believe. The church is not nearly as bad for intellectualism as a culture that's willing to give athletes tens of millions of dollars to play a child's game, while paying grad school alumni $70,000 a year (if that person is lucky).
 
2012-02-13 12:54:04 PM
America - we spend more per pupil on K-12 public education than any other nation on earth and our reward is by universal acclaim the world's most stupid children. We are consistently the laughing stock of most developed nations. Thanks Teachers Unions! You deserve a raise and tenure!
 
2012-02-13 12:57:46 PM

dragonchild: natazha: If there weren't jobs for STEM in the USA, companies wouldn't be paying for 85,000 H1B visas every year.

The number of jobs is irrelevant. They're trying to flood the labor market to apply downward pressure on wages. It's dangerously short-sighted, but politically easy to do in the midst of a strong anti-intellectual movement.


Why would anyone put forth the effort required to be a successful engineer when you only end up working for a mouth breathing manager who was probably an average student when they got their PolySci or Business degree? Then you get the bonus experience of working for a low wage because a) your job is only going to get outsourced anyway or b) why should they give a shiat about you when their nephew Haboobi will be graduating from the polytech soon and will be getting an H1B and taking your job?

Can't blame kids, their top priority is getting a degree that will keep them employed and successful, not to satisfy some statistic that's used for bragging rights.
 
2012-02-13 01:17:25 PM

Farty McPooPants: Why would anyone put forth the effort required to be a successful engineer when you only end up working for a mouth breathing manager who was probably an average student when they got their PolySci or Business degree?


Because not every manager is like that. Some of the easiest to work with are managers that are former engineers and either got promoted or created their own company. However, they are increasingly rare for two reasons:

1) If they create their own company, many engineers are technically competent but lack business acumen. They might have a good design, but it doesn't sell well enough and the company goes under. Or, as soon as they threaten a larger competitor they'll get a buyout offer they can't refuse and retire.
2) Promotions from within are getting vanishingly rare because business schools have created a sort of "leadership class" of MBAs that occupy the management layers of a company. A lot of engineers I see these days are fiftysomething "senior team leaders" with a lot of responsibility and no authority. Without the MBAs clogging up the org chart they'd be junior-level executives. Even when they are promoted, they often get forced out by the MBAs, who are frankly better at office politics.

If you can find a manager who's a former engineer who learned how to operate a business and/or navigate the MBA soap opera, you take a pay cut to work for that person. Unfortunately they're rare and their numbers are on the decline, and engineering is turning into a dead-end job.
 
2012-02-13 01:17:30 PM
I think there were sample problems.

From the PISA report: "The findings of follow-up analyses, . . . together with the low participation rate and small final sample size meant that the Consortium could not have confidence the results from the Netherlands . . . It was recommended to exclude data from the Netherlands."Link (new window).

Even apart from the issues they admit, there are problems. In Japan, 94% of the students go to high school Link (new window). In other words, 6% of the (presumably low-performing) kids in Japan weren't even eligible to be sampled.

I think interpreting the US results compared to those of other countries needs to be done very, very carefully and on a case-by-case basis. Simply stating that we're in the middle of the pack is misleading.
 
2012-02-13 01:18:23 PM
Grand Theft Auto the game, or the actual crime?
 
2012-02-13 01:24:06 PM

Farty McPooPants: dragonchild: natazha: If there weren't jobs for STEM in the USA, companies wouldn't be paying for 85,000 H1B visas every year.

The number of jobs is irrelevant. They're trying to flood the labor market to apply downward pressure on wages. It's dangerously short-sighted, but politically easy to do in the midst of a strong anti-intellectual movement.

Why would anyone put forth the effort required to be a successful engineer when you only end up working for a mouth breathing manager who was probably an average student when they got their PolySci or Business degree? Then you get the bonus experience of working for a low wage because a) your job is only going to get outsourced anyway or b) why should they give a shiat about you when their nephew Haboobi will be graduating from the polytech soon and will be getting an H1B and taking your job?

Can't blame kids, their top priority is getting a degree that will keep them employed and successful, not to satisfy some statistic that's used for bragging rights.


As an IT major sitting in the middle of a bunch of business majors, I'm getting a real kick...

/soulless pricks...
 
2012-02-13 01:30:30 PM

HellRaisingHoosier: I had the most amazing meeting a week ago when one of our clients showed up for a visit. It was a sit-down between our company and theirs. We were going to be covering everything from facilities & processes to IT & physical security. When it was my turn to speak about our IT status, before I began one of the executives from the visiting clients said, "Alright. Lets listen to the nerd talk."

My boss immediately interrupted and asked the gentleman to apologize to me. I think I was more caught off guard then anything else. My boss said something along the lines of, "HellRaisingHoosier is a very important part of our team, he has saved our company a lot of money during his time here, and has increased our efficiency and preparedness 100-fold. It's rather rude of you to dismiss his chosen profession when he is just as important as everyone else at this table."

The visitor said gave a sheepish apology and the meeting moved along from there.

/we still have the client .... which is nice.


Cool story nerd.
 
2012-02-13 01:33:55 PM
At least Americans still possess the creativity and technical know-how to make Grand Theft A.... Oh, snap. It's actually made by some British guys who are making fun of America.
 
2012-02-13 01:46:22 PM
Down south one of our biggest problems is the focus on:

blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com
 
2012-02-13 01:47:25 PM

draypresct: I think interpreting the US results compared to those of other countries needs to be done very, very carefully and on a case-by-case basis. Simply stating that we're in the middle of the pack is misleading.


Massachusetts routinely is competitive with Finland and the East Asian countries. We tie or beat them in science, and are a few points behind them in math.

Alabama & Mississippi? Not so much.
 
2012-02-13 01:56:04 PM

Cubicle Jockey: draypresct: I think interpreting the US results compared to those of other countries needs to be done very, very carefully and on a case-by-case basis. Simply stating that we're in the middle of the pack is misleading.

Massachusetts routinely is competitive with Finland and the East Asian countries. We tie or beat them in science, and are a few points behind them in math.

Alabama & Mississippi? Not so much.


So what do you suggest we do? Dismiss the South from the Union?

/...would we really miss it?
 
2012-02-13 01:57:01 PM

Gig103: Grand Theft Auto the game, or the actual crime?


Probably both.
 
2012-02-13 02:00:12 PM

Cubicle Jockey: draypresct: I think interpreting the US results compared to those of other countries needs to be done very, very carefully and on a case-by-case basis. Simply stating that we're in the middle of the pack is misleading.

Massachusetts routinely is competitive with Finland and the East Asian countries. We tie or beat them in science, and are a few points behind them in math.

Alabama & Mississippi? Not so much.


That's impressive. You're competing with the top X%* of students in a lot of these countries, and I'm pretty sure Massachusetts doesn't prevent many students from attending high school.

*X% = % of students allowed into high school, ranging from about 35% in China to 94% in Japan.
 
2012-02-13 02:01:49 PM
I just started my PhD Candidacy last September.
In My cohort of 40 students, there are :

3 American males (of all colors)
0 American Females
3 Ukranians (1 female)
1 Greek male

... and the rest of the population is Asian - 50% from China, 49% Indian and 1% Korean.

In the whole program, there are exactly 15 US Citizens, in a problem with over 120+ candidates.

This scares the Bejeesus out of me - Where are the US Citizens that want to get a PhD in Computer Science?

(not really a question - I know where they are - Out in the Industry, not foolishly squandering their youth making 16k a year working 120 hour weeks)
 
2012-02-13 02:10:44 PM

rubi_con_man: This scares the Bejeesus out of me - Where are the US Citizens that want to get a PhD in Computer Science?


I don't know, the market has been pretty discouraging for like the last deacde. I only have a BS and 5 years experience but I know guys with twice as much experience who can't get jobs. That's partially why I changed professions to what I really wanted to do all along, movies. No one's outsoucing big dumb movies to India. They're doing their own thing.

So of course a doctorate would open a lot more doors than a measily BS but I can see how people might be weary in going in that direction.
 
2012-02-13 02:11:14 PM

Zik-Zak: Cubicle Jockey: draypresct: I think interpreting the US results compared to those of other countries needs to be done very, very carefully and on a case-by-case basis. Simply stating that we're in the middle of the pack is misleading.

Massachusetts routinely is competitive with Finland and the East Asian countries. We tie or beat them in science, and are a few points behind them in math.

Alabama & Mississippi? Not so much.

So what do you suggest we do? Dismiss the South from the Union?

/...would we really miss it?


Please don't dismiss the South from the Union. There are a lot of good, intelligent people down there who would very much like to keep living under the entire Bill of Rights instead of the abbreviated version they'd be left with. We also shouldn't kick people out of middle or high school like many of the countries we're competing against.

It's in our best interest to give everyone the best education we can (for one thing, they vote).

How about we keep our educational system's standards high so that it remains (as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread) the best one in the world when you make a fair comparison?
 
2012-02-13 02:32:02 PM

rubi_con_man: Where are the US Citizens that want to get a PhD in Computer Science


We're at work!
 
2012-02-13 02:34:56 PM

rubi_con_man: I know where they are - Out in the Industry, not foolishly squandering their youth making 16k a year working 120 hour weeks


QFT. People want to, and would, if they were sure there were something in it for them.
 
2012-02-13 02:42:23 PM
We can thank the GOP for wanting to get rid of the public school system. Under fund and then claim the system is not working.
 
2012-02-13 02:49:25 PM

lohphat: Ths is what you get when you don't leve some kids behind and try to inject creationism into the curriculum.

We have to import H1B engineers to keep many industries running because all our "best and brightest" get majors in "communications" or MBAs.

Ta-da!


You think the push and influence from creationists is stronger now than it was in the 40s- 60s?

My guess would be shiatty teachers and an "everybody wins" system we have in todays schools, along with a lack of focus on education spending and excessive attention toward school sports programs that benefit very few students (percentage wise).
 
2012-02-13 03:00:00 PM

Farty McPooPants: Can't blame kids, their top priority is getting a degree that will keep them employed and successful, not to satisfy some statistic that's used for bragging rights.


THIS. People biatch if students take liberal arts degrees that don't directly translate into jobs. Can't biatch when they choose to avoid STEM degrees that also don't directly translate into jobs. Build an economy that doesn't demand only non-skilled service workers and meaningless business middle-men, and people will learn real stuff again. Until then, enjoy slipping in math/science against everyone else.
 
2012-02-13 03:58:26 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: Education is for Libbylib Athiest Pussies.


The same libs who think art history majors taking 100k loans out is justified?
 
2012-02-13 04:17:55 PM
Subby, optimizing my drug routes to gain maximum profits in GTA requires a decent amount of route planning and min/max scenario generation. In the real world, we call that "math."
 
2012-02-13 04:46:09 PM
Your brats even suck at games. I play a lot on US servers because I am old and crusty and slow and cannot handle the euro-server hardcore gamers at all, I just get taken to the cleaners over and over. On US servers I am above the normal standard.
 
2012-02-13 04:55:12 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Build an economy that doesn't demand only non-skilled service workers and meaningless business middle-men, and people will learn real stuff again. Until then, enjoy slipping in math/science against everyone else.


Who, pray tell, should build this economy? The rest of us must've forgotten that this generation needs everything handed to it on a silver platter...
 
2012-02-13 04:59:00 PM
We are certainly not the best at video games, old man. Let me present to you Korea, home of professional starcraft champs. Link (new window)
 
2012-02-13 05:06:01 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Who, pray tell, should build this economy? The rest of us must've forgotten that this generation needs everything handed to it on a silver platter...


Just as long as you'd stop taking everything away from this generation and blaming them for the deficit, they'd probably be happy. All I'm saying is that you can't move to a paper-pushing service economy that's 10% meaningless management and 90% non-skilled labor and expect people to take on math and science degrees. There's no point if, at the end of the day, you either need to get a meaningless management position or become a non-skilled laborer.

"just bootstrap it!" is a lazy non-answer.
 
2012-02-13 05:06:08 PM

Mr. Breeze: You think the push and influence from creationists is stronger now than it was in the 40s- 60s?


It is not about the push to get religion in schools ... that is a whole other argument. Even if there was a separate religion class it would not impact the teaching of science.

It is the "teach the controversy" crap that is destroying the foundations of science. The idea that opinion should be taught as a scientific theory just because a large group likes it. Completely ignoring the rules of science to push forward a religious agenda.

To get more specific: ID is not a scientific theory. Evolution is a scientific theory. You do not put these side-by-side in a science class. When you do you are explicitly teaching that opinion is science.

/there are plenty of places you can compare/discuss them ... just not in a science class.
 
2012-02-13 05:06:17 PM

gaspode: Your brats even suck at games. I play a lot on US servers because I am old and crusty and slow and cannot handle the euro-server hardcore gamers at all, I just get taken to the cleaners over and over. On US servers I am above the normal standard.


Says the man who lives in a country with more sheep than people and almost no real accomplishments to speak of.
 
2012-02-13 05:27:07 PM
For the United States, which led the way in space after Sputnik

Is this some kind of farking joke? The Soviets were first in everything but the moon race. First man in space, woman, first spacewalk, first space station etc.

Stalin would be proud of this revisionism. Or maybe USA scores last in history as well as everything else.
 
2012-02-13 06:03:42 PM

Suede head: For the United States, which led the way in space after Sputnik

Is this some kind of farking joke? The Soviets were first in everything but the moon race. First man in space, woman, first spacewalk, first space station etc.

Stalin would be proud of this revisionism. Or maybe USA scores last in history as well as everything else.


First man in space, first woman in space, first spacewalk, first fatalities in space, first cosmonauts erased from history to try to cover up the fatalities . . . the list of Russian firsts goes on.

So, why would we consider the US the leader? Maybe it's because we've done things Russia (and the rest of the world) has yet to be able to accomplish.

The US landed people on the moon. Several times, in fact. Most of Russia's moon landing attempts have been failures (even their unmanned attempts to land on other moons, like Phobos). Link (new window)
The US launched the first GPS satellite in 1978. Link (new window) {ctrl-f} "russia" results: none found.
The US developed re-usable spaceships. Russia? Not so much.

Looking at the overall list, yeah, I'd say the US has led space exploration. Especially during the last 30 years, where we've had around 18 firsts and Russia has had 2.
Link (new window)
 
2012-02-13 06:58:43 PM

Farking Canuck: Mr. Breeze: You think the push and influence from creationists is stronger now than it was in the 40s- 60s?

It is not about the push to get religion in schools ... that is a whole other argument. Even if there was a separate religion class it would not impact the teaching of science.

It is the "teach the controversy" crap that is destroying the foundations of science. The idea that opinion should be taught as a scientific theory just because a large group likes it. Completely ignoring the rules of science to push forward a religious agenda.

To get more specific: ID is not a scientific theory. Evolution is a scientific theory. You do not put these side-by-side in a science class. When you do you are explicitly teaching that opinion is science.

/there are plenty of places you can compare/discuss them ... just not in a science class.


Do you have any proof that there are enough schools out there "teaching the controversy" to have a strong influence on nationwide science education levels? Additionally, this does not translate into low math scores.
 
Displayed 50 of 117 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report