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Now that Baltimore has ruled you can video police officers you can no longer sue them for anytime they might have hassled you, confiscated your camera, or unlawfully deleted video in the past
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OregonVet
2012-02-13 09:03:28 AM
Possibly the most misleading headline of the day,
sage37
2012-02-13 10:36:37 AM
spman
2012-02-13 10:36:55 AM
I don't even understand the headline, it seems to be missing some important punctuation somewhere.
Cormee
2012-02-13 10:37:44 AM
Isn't that normal for any new law?
PsiChi
2012-02-13 10:39:02 AM
thelordofcheese
2012-02-13 10:42:52 AM
HAHA no. That's not going to stand. Their argument is weak and quite obviously without merit.
Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
CameraMonkey
2012-02-13 10:43:50 AM
IANAL but this doesnt hold water.
Based on other stories, just because the law changes, doesnt mean its retroactive. For instance there are military officers that were relieved of duty very close to retirement so that they would not be eligible for full retirement. Congress drafted a law barring the practice, but it was unable to provide relief to prior affected soldiers as it passed several months after they were discharged.
So saying that they arent liable for harming someone because its legal NOW (and wasnt when the action(s) happened ) just doesnt seem to be legit.
MindStalker
2012-02-13 10:44:37 AM
Subby: I see nothing in the article validating your claim. Return to Go, do not collect $200.
DubyaHater
2012-02-13 10:45:45 AM
What is the headline trying to say? I don't understand. Don't make me read the article
Subby
!
dslknowitall
2012-02-13 10:47:12 AM
MindStalker
:
Subby: I see nothing in the article validating your claim. Return to Go, do not collect $200.
"The police department's motion argues that the
lawsuit should be dismissed
because relief can't be granted for any of its claims
and adds that the point is moot
since the department now trains officers that people can record them performing duties in public."
It's tricky....the hid it with english.
thelordofcheese
2012-02-13 10:47:47 AM
Cormee
:
Isn't that normal for any new law?
It's not a new law. They're arguing that the basis of their actions are consistent with the prior interpretation of the existing law and that any new judgment would be a new interpretation of this law. This is not the case, and they were misusing the Wiretap Act in what amounts to a dereliction of duty and mass violations of the civil rights of multiple citizens.
dslknowitall
2012-02-13 10:47:52 AM
the=they....curse you irony
factoryconnection
2012-02-13 10:48:52 AM
The law hasn't changed, as the "law" in question is the First Amendment to the US Constitution. Baltimore PD has trained its officers to stop harrassing, beating, arresting, beating, and stealing from people that film them; that's just BPD policy changes. The law was signed into effect in 1791.
And just because the AG wants the suit dismissed doesn't mean you can't sue or you can't win. They want it dismissed because they don't want to lose!
Magorn
2012-02-13 10:49:04 AM
"Baltimore" has ruled that Subby? I was unaware that cities could issue rulings. Secondly I don't see anywhere in this article where that new POLICE Directive, precludes people from suing for past misconduct. In fact this is a GOOD thing because now the cops are officially on notice that they can't do this, making any future lawsuit much easier to win
9beers
2012-02-13 10:52:21 AM
thelordofcheese
:
Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Oh look, it's this idiot again. Instead of telling everybody else to shoot cops, why don't you go do it yourself?
factoryconnection
2012-02-13 10:52:58 AM
thelordofcheese
:
This is not the case, and they were misusing the Wiretap Act in what amounts to a dereliction of duty and mass violations of the civil rights of multiple citizens.
Especially since they were doing it explicitly to destroy evidence. This is a broad, criminal mindset that pervades PDs throughout the US. I'm not a cop hater; I'm saying this based on the many instances that have been caught in PDs around the country of cops illegally seizing or seizing under false pretenses peoples' property and deliberately destroying the evidence contained.
Some like the platitude: "if you aren't guilty, you have nothing to fear." Sorry but this trend proves that even for the most straight of arrows, the police have demonstrated a willingness to crush innocent peoples' rights in the spirit of C Y A.
thelordofcheese
2012-02-13 10:57:04 AM
9beers
:
thelordofcheese: Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Oh look, it's this idiot again. Instead of telling everybody else to shoot cops, why don't you go do it yourself?
Yeah, I'm totally an army of one. That'll work.
9beers
2012-02-13 11:00:27 AM
thelordofcheese
:
Yeah, I'm totally an army of one. That'll work.
Well start organizing then.
thelordofcheese
2012-02-13 11:02:03 AM
9beers
:
thelordofcheese: Yeah, I'm totally an army of one. That'll work.
Well start organizing then.
I'm hoping Weaver will sign up.
MindStalker
2012-02-13 11:03:39 AM
dslknowitall
:
MindStalker: Subby: I see nothing in the article validating your claim. Return to Go, do not collect $200.
"The police department's motion argues that the lawsuit should be dismissed because relief can't be granted for any of its claims and adds that the point is moot since the department now trains officers that people can record them performing duties in public."
It's tricky....the hid it with english.
motions are NOT rules.
//Education is this country really does suck doesn't it?
6655321
2012-02-13 11:06:26 AM
The public has to obey laws. Police officers follow department policies. PD policies can change at the instruction of a high rankng officer and may not be available to public inspectiob as laws are supposed to. The hodgepodge collection of rules, regulations and policies can vary greatly between jurisdictions.
Endive Wombat
2012-02-13 11:09:18 AM
Didn't SCOTUS already rule on this?
SageC
2012-02-13 11:16:40 AM
Filming police in Nevada... still under debate. Get 'em, Rivieri!
"I'm not man! I'm not dude!"
dslknowitall
2012-02-13 11:20:28 AM
MindStalker
:
motions are NOT rules.
//Education is this country really does suck doesn't it?
Two entirely separate things. BPD created a policy that
ruled
video taping officers was allowed. They also submitted a
motion
that the lawsuit retroactively be covered by this and dismissed. Your initial post stated "...nothing in the article validating your claim" which is where we differ in our opinions.
On the bright side we can both agree on your last point. :)
JustGetItRight
2012-02-13 11:23:12 AM
dslknowitall
:
MindStalker: Subby: I see nothing in the article validating your claim. Return to Go, do not collect $200.
"The police department's motion argues that the lawsuit should be dismissed because relief can't be granted for any of its claims and adds that the point is moot since the department now trains officers that people can record them performing duties in public."
It's tricky....the hid it with english.
Um, the important part of that entire section is
The police department's motion argues
, as in they're asking the judge to make the case go away. They could just as easily the judge to give them a pet unicorn too.
Asking for relief != getting that relief.
Judge is going to deny the motion, at which point the serious settlement talks (translation - how much $$ to make it go away talks) between the city and plaintiff will begin.
CapnBlues
2012-02-13 11:43:25 AM
Commas are really helpful, subby.
Now that Baltimore has ruled you can video police officers
,
you can no longer sue them for anytime they might have hassled you, confiscated your camera, or unlawfully deleted video in the past
Commas often indicate important pauses in speech and can signal the borders of clauses, an important type of information for the parsing of discourse.
ramblinwreck
2012-02-13 12:00:11 PM
Now that Baltimore has ruled you can video police officers you can no longer sue them for anytime they might have hassled you, confiscated your camera, or unlawfully deleted video in the past
CruiserTwelve
2012-02-13 12:11:55 PM
I think some of the confusion comes from the article being poorly written. I suspect that the claim contained two separate sections. First, that the police must return the video and any pictures that were deleted. The AG is arguing that since those items were permanently deleted, it's impossible to comply with that demand. Secondly, the claim wants the policy changed and all cops trained in the new policy. Since that's already been done, that part of the claim is moot.
They'll pay the claimant off and make this go away. Next time though, since the policy has been changed and cops have been trained, somebody's gonna collect big time.
Walker
2012-02-13 12:23:49 PM
I think the best advice I can give to anyone is just to never go to Baltimore.
Dr. Speed
2012-02-13 12:44:35 PM
thelordofcheese
:
9beers: thelordofcheese: Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Oh look, it's this idiot again. Instead of telling everybody else to shoot cops, why don't you go do it yourself?
Yeah, I'm totally an army of one. That'll work.
What a lord of cheese may look like
seapig
2012-02-13 01:09:39 PM
They deleted
all
of the photos and videos on his phone...is there nothing written or interpreted within the law that would allow this guy to sue for the retrieval (or at the very least, compensation for the
loss
) of those precious photos and videos? They had
no
right to delete the evidence that could (
potentially
) be used against them and even
less
of a right to delete this guy's
personal
photos and videos. What if he had pictures of his baby's first steps on there that had not yet been backed up or stored anywhere else? Or pictures of his wedding day? Or better yet, a sexy-time video he had saved on there for his own viewing pleasure? (*Something that could have possibly been forwarded to or saved by or e-mailed to someone, anyone else that has no involvement in this police investigation? Or to the officers involved themselves? How would this man even know if that had happened? Should there not be a recording of the police going through his phone? Or at the very least a report or corroborating police testimony that could confirm or deny such an egregious abuse of power? It seems to me that
any
time the police have to search or retrieve files from someone's phone or laptop or any other file storage device, there should be more than 1 officer and
at least
1 technical expert present keeping an accurate and detailed record of what is being done with or to the files being searched or reviewed. The law is so far behind the technology and unfortunately, it is on the side of those wishing to abuse or misuse the technology for their own personal gain or advantages.)
And wouldn't that be considered obstruction of justice (or police misconduct/dereliction of duty) being that they just straight up deleted evidence? It is
not
at their discretion to unlawfully seize, search, and consequentially
destroy
this man's (or anyone else's, for that matter) personal and private property. Would this not set a very dangerous precedent wherein the police could hypothetically decide to just start seizing citizens' recording devices and delete any and all evidence against them, in addition to whatever else they feel like deleting (or are too stupid to figure out how to delete these items one by one)? Since when are they
not PUBLIC servants
who answer to
us
, the taxpayers who fund their paychecks? They are required to abide by the same laws that we as citizens are to abide by. In fact, should they not be expected to uphold and follow those laws even
more so
than we lowly civilians are? If they are to be granted certain leniency, and if their word is to be taken as more honest and truthful in a court of law than say, a defendant's, then they should also be held to a higher standard (and found to be held more accountable for their actions/inactions) than those they are supposedly "protecting".
It was always my understanding that this was the case (* my ex father in-law was a police officer in Wilkinsburg township here in Pittsburgh for 10+ years and subsequently became
Sr. Deputy Attorney General
(new window) of the state while Mike Fischer was in office, so my understanding of how the police operate all comes from him)...if I am incorrect in any of my assumptions, then please correct me so that I can understand this issue more accurately. The questions I have are genuine and I am very interested to see the outcome of this case and what repercussions it may have nationally.
cptjeff
2012-02-13 01:21:47 PM
^Which is why the Baltimore PD is about to get a legal smackdown, if they don't settle (buy the guy off, which I'm sure he'll be happy with).
Frizbone
2012-02-13 01:23:12 PM
Police always try to confiscate and delete my videos of them. That's why I always use QIK. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it is hard for them to put it back in.
kim jong-un
2012-02-13 01:47:02 PM
factoryconnection
:
The law hasn't changed, as the "law" in question is the First Amendment to the US Constitution. Baltimore PD has trained its officers to stop harrassing, beating, arresting, beating, and stealing from people that film them; that's just BPD policy changes. The law was signed into effect in 1791.
And just because the AG wants the suit dismissed doesn't mean you can't sue or you can't win. They want it dismissed because they don't want to lose!
Technically, the right to free speech, being a natural right, was came into effect the very instant the first sentient creature conveyed an idea. Oh it can be violated, but as far as the US government is concerned...
factoryconnection
2012-02-13 01:53:08 PM
kim jong-un
:
Technically, the right to free speech, being a natural right, was came into effect the very instant the first sentient creature conveyed an idea. Oh it can be violated, but as far as the US government is concerned...
Well we can at least agree that the "law" in question was in place well before cell phone video was put to market.
Frizbone
:
Police always try to confiscate and delete my videos of them. That's why I always use QIK. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it is hard for them to put it back in.
I'll tell you what, if you're a person that likes to film in public using a smartphone, QIK seems to be a must-have. Not just from the "5-0 on my back" angle, but also the "oops I dropped it into the fountain" and "f*cking pickpockets!" angles.
Loren
2012-02-13 02:09:30 PM
CruiserTwelve
:
I think some of the confusion comes from the article being poorly written. I suspect that the claim contained two separate sections. First, that the police must return the video and any pictures that were deleted. The AG is arguing that since those items were permanently deleted, it's impossible to comply with that demand. Secondly, the claim wants the policy changed and all cops trained in the new policy. Since that's already been done, that part of the claim is moot.
They'll pay the claimant off and make this go away. Next time though, since the policy has been changed and cops have been trained, somebody's gonna collect big time.
Agreed, although it looks like the cops aren't obeying the new rules.
wambu
2012-02-13 02:15:02 PM
And once again my faith in the integrity and honor of law enforcement officers is shat upon.
Damnaged
2012-02-13 02:18:24 PM
thelordofcheese
:
HAHA no. That's not going to stand. Their argument is weak and quite obviously without merit.
Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Dear thelordofcheese,
DHS has recently been monitoring the World Wide Web (invented by Al Gore in the early 90's - failure to agree constitutes a felony under pub. l. 107-94 punishable by 15 years in prison or a $2.5 million fine, whichever reduces the likelyhood of BIE more) and determined your recent comments to constitute a threat to national security and the sensitive egos of several bureaucrats.
Please report to the nearest FBI office for detention and transport to your nearest friendly Federal Family
tm
"questioning" center for humane enhanced interrogation.
Sincerely,
Janet Napolitano
Secretary of Homeland Security
Guiness Book of World Records holder for most "OMG BURN IT WITH FIRE" face.
indylaw
2012-02-13 02:29:30 PM
That's what Baltimore's defense attorneys would like to see happen. A subsequent change in city policy would moot the injunctive and declaratory relief sought in the lawsuit, but it cannot moot the claim for damages for past conduct, any more than issuing a new policy against racial profiling would negate a suit for racial profiling which occurred before the policy was issued.
It's bad law, but the lawyers Baltimore has hired will make the argument in a motion for summary judgment in order to rack up billable hours, and in hopes that maybe the judge isn't too bright.
asciibaron
2012-02-13 02:51:46 PM
they are now arresting people who video them for loitering.
asciibaron
2012-02-13 02:52:22 PM
linky goodness
Link
(new window)
Hoblit
2012-02-13 03:57:58 PM
I hope the case goes through and that they win against the PD.
Otherwise the 'policy change' that should have just been in accordance to the law and constituion already is barey effective at all.
I mean, if there is no real punishment for having done it, then the C Y A aspect of this outweighs the conssequences.
Like committing pass interference to stop the game winning touch down in the last 30 seconds of a football game. Sure, you get a penalty but you just saved at least 3 or 4 points, maybe 6 or 7, maybe even 8.
thelordofcheese
2012-02-13 05:31:15 PM
Damnaged
:
thelordofcheese: HAHA no. That's not going to stand. Their argument is weak and quite obviously without merit.
Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Dear thelordofcheese,
DHS has recently been monitoring the World Wide Web (invented by Al Gore in the early 90's - failure to agree constitutes a felony under pub. l. 107-94 punishable by 15 years in prison or a $2.5 million fine, whichever reduces the likelyhood of BIE more) and determined your recent comments to constitute a threat to national security and the sensitive egos of several bureaucrats.
Please report to the nearest FBI office for detention and transport to your nearest friendly Federal Familytm "questioning" center for humane enhanced interrogation.
Sincerely,
Janet Napolitano
Secretary of Homeland Security
Guiness Book of World Records holder for most "OMG BURN IT WITH FIRE" face.
I haven't had my name connected to a utility, cellphone, payroll, government-issued identification... ANYTHING for over 3 years now. My family doesn't even know where I am.
Damnaged
2012-02-13 06:43:28 PM
thelordofcheese
:
Damnaged: thelordofcheese: HAHA no. That's not going to stand. Their argument is weak and quite obviously without merit.
Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Dear thelordofcheese,
DHS has recently been monitoring the World Wide Web (invented by Al Gore in the early 90's - failure to agree constitutes a felony under pub. l. 107-94 punishable by 15 years in prison or a $2.5 million fine, whichever reduces the likelyhood of BIE more) and determined your recent comments to constitute a threat to national security and the sensitive egos of several bureaucrats.
Please report to the nearest FBI office for detention and transport to your nearest friendly Federal Familytm "questioning" center for humane enhanced interrogation.
Sincerely,
Janet Napolitano
Secretary of Homeland Security
Guiness Book of World Records holder for most "OMG BURN IT WITH FIRE" face.
I haven't had my name connected to a utility, cellphone, payroll, government-issued identification... ANYTHING for over 3 years now. My family doesn't even know where I am.
You are my hero. Please, show me your ways.
LegalizeThoughtCrime
2012-02-13 08:45:30 PM
Sadly, even when there is clear videotape evidence of Police Abuse of Power, they can just just "investigate" themselves and the DA is powerless to oppose a corrupt police force.
The SRPD "
Memory-Holed
" a Hit & Run in a school crosswalk, and prevented dozens of witnesses from making statements claiming "
The car stopped several times - but the victim refused to get off the hood of the car
" during the investigation of Official Police Complaint [ SRPD PC04-01-03 ]
However, even a casual glace at the videotape clearly proves that the officers repeatedly ordered the car to pull over - which is a logical contradiction to the "stopped several times" story:
http://www.archive.org/details/HitAndRunInCrosswalk-WarProtest
Dale Robbins was shot dead in the Santa Rosa Police Department lobby (Jan 29, 1996) while the videocameras were "out of film". The Grand Jury determined that the DA had doen a sloppy "investigation".
As a taxpaying American I am mildly displeased when police officers file false reports - even to whitewash a violent crime against an "Undesirable".
JerkStore
2012-02-13 08:53:34 PM
thelordofcheese
:
Damnaged: thelordofcheese: HAHA no. That's not going to stand. Their argument is weak and quite obviously without merit.
Stop shotting cops with cameras; start shooting pigs with guns.
Dear thelordofcheese,
DHS has recently been monitoring the World Wide Web (invented by Al Gore in the early 90's - failure to agree constitutes a felony under pub. l. 107-94 punishable by 15 years in prison or a $2.5 million fine, whichever reduces the likelyhood of BIE more) and determined your recent comments to constitute a threat to national security and the sensitive egos of several bureaucrats.
Please report to the nearest FBI office for detention and transport to your nearest friendly Federal Familytm "questioning" center for humane enhanced interrogation.
Sincerely,
Janet Napolitano
Secretary of Homeland Security
Guiness Book of World Records holder for most "OMG BURN IT WITH FIRE" face.
I haven't had my name connected to a utility, cellphone, payroll, government-issued identification... ANYTHING for over 3 years now. My family doesn't even know where I am.
dready zim
2012-02-15 09:03:39 AM
Cameras. The only moral and ethical weapon of choice for use against the law enforcers. Force them to stand by their actions and be accountable.
THE CAMERA DOES NOT LIE
indylaw
2012-02-15 09:17:00 AM
LegalizeThoughtCrime
:
Sadly, even when there is clear videotape evidence of Police Abuse of Power, they can just just "investigate" themselves and the DA is powerless to oppose a corrupt police force.
ITS DANGEROUS OUT THERE TAKE THIS:
42 U.S.C. 1983
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