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(News.com.au)   On the bright side, there's lots of new ruins to visit in Greece   (news.com.au) divider line 342
    More: News, Greece, mass protests, Whitney Houston, riots  
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24932 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Feb 2012 at 5:02 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-12 07:05:56 PM

sophus_tree: I know Poland was invaded a bunch, but I don't see a direct connection here. Seems like we're still quite a ways from that, doesn't it?


I was snarking.
 
2012-02-12 07:08:59 PM
Well...at least the Elgin Marbles are safe.

Actually, I really can't be snarky about this.


/archaeologist :(
 
2012-02-12 07:09:23 PM

ACallForPeace: leevis: The debts of the upper class? From everything I've read most of Greece's debts stem from entitlements for the poor and middle class and pensions for government employees.

This is about repaying foreign bankers/investors. Debt is the new false obligation since loyalty to god/the king is out. It presumes to be a contract made by equals but it's just the perversion of a promise with mathematics and violence.
Only through some high-in-the-sky moral principle like debt could you justify taking the livelihoods such as food, housing, and basic support and democracy away from an entire people to change the balance sheet in favor of a few banks so they don't lose as much.
The IMF/global economic mafia is pretty much using the Greek government as their enforcer on the people, and the people have had enough.


Perhaps the people shouldn't have voted in whoever said they would give them the most free shiat for free for the last 60yrs.
 
2012-02-12 07:10:33 PM

that bosnian sniper: Latin America just kind of got passed between the two. Any of the countries got pissed or tried to buck the system, the CIA swooped in to shore things up by any means necessary. World Bank/IMF was the carrot, and the US intelligence community was the stick.


Ah.
The beauty of free markets and capitalism!
Look at that freedom and opportunity!
Every neoliberal loves Pinochet! Just look at how free labor and consumers are! The economic growth to be had!
Market expansion and productivity for authorities is the height of human achievement and morality!
 
2012-02-12 07:13:01 PM

Bob16: Is that a fact


I hope you realize that citing old articles to explain a current situation pretty much destroys your argument.
 
2012-02-12 07:15:59 PM
fark the Greeks. They'll burn down everything and then wail when the government doesn't rebuild it fast enough.
 
2012-02-12 07:16:20 PM
At first I was all "should have paid your taxes biatch", but then I realised the enemy of my enemy is also my friend...

They should start up an anonymous "sponsor a Greek anarchist" scheme.

"Your $10 donation went towards 12 molotov cocktails, which was used to burn 1.5 banks"

*grabs popcorn*
 
2012-02-12 07:16:50 PM

Weaver95: so here's one scenario - Greece implodes into civil war. Turkey decides that this is a great time to shift the borders a bit, and gets into a tiff with remaining loyalist elements within Greece. NATO (and the UN) try to play peacemaker while the guys in suits divide up whatever's left of the country's infrastucture.

meanwhile, Iran completes its nuclear weapons program, prompting Israel to launch a coordinated attack on Iran. iran strikes back, forging a hasty alliance with Jordan, Egypt, and quiet backing from saudi arabia and Iraq.

Here in the US, members of congress (deeply indebted to both banking interests AND Israel lobbyists) push to get the United States to put troops into the Israeli warzone to help the jews fight their war....but they're hampered by the accelerating collapse of the eurozone economy, which is spiking unemployment here in the states. Homeland security and domestic police forces begin an unprecedented crackdown on political dissidents.

China....well, we can cover that later, if there's any interest.



Sounds like a novel. Maybe one written by Joel Rosenberg.
 
2012-02-12 07:20:55 PM

Relatively Obscure: And is this a completely and totally un-amendable hypothetical constitution?


In many countries, constitutions tend to be a bit more difficult to amend than general legislation. But your point is valid - they could just revoke that part of their constitution at a later date. But there really isn't a better way of dealing with it, other than attempting to instill a culture of frugality upon the nation.


that bosnian sniper: More like private moneyed interests buy up legislators and/to cook the hell out of the books


Heck, they don't even need to cook the books. Corporate welfare is wide out in the open in many nations, with many voters in favor of legislators who "bring home the bacon" when it benefits their districts. Graft and corruption that is hidden away is just the icing on the top.
 
2012-02-12 07:30:32 PM

AntiNorm: The Greek people need yet another bailout, and they're pissed that they're going to have to cut back? What, did they go to the Barack Obama school of economics?

That, or they're just like the Occupy idiots -- they want sh*t for free.


Its Greece. They want to sit in their coffee lounges for 8 hours a day and get paid for it. They haven't had a productive citizen since Aristotle
 
2012-02-12 07:35:22 PM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Wow they have it backwards. You're supposed to pillage before you burn.


The Germans beat them to the pillaging, so burning's all they've got left to express their rage with.

I wonder how the EU will react when firing the few people who still have jobs left in Greece mysteriously doesn't improve their economy.
 
2012-02-12 07:35:30 PM

Nemo's Brother: This is what happens when you treat thieves like adults.


In Greece, good luck finding someone who isn't a thief to some point.
 
2012-02-12 07:37:39 PM

Bob16: Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

clip - information technology has turned into one of the biggest job-growth disappointments of all time.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_39/b4002001.htm


Your first link is about the UK, and your second link is from 2006. I think job demand for CS majors is doing fine at the moment. Lots of companies show up to the CS department career fairs here.
 
2012-02-12 07:37:44 PM
should just go into default, its going to happen sooner or later.
 
2012-02-12 07:38:53 PM

ACallForPeace: This is what happens when you try squeezing blood out of a turnip.
If you try to punish the lower and working class as a whole and wholesale theft/sellout of their livelihoods and their democracy, to pay off the debts the upper class has accrued expect resistance like this. All this done for foreign creditors. Bankers and corporations getting off free as hell, the government being replaced and practically handpicked by an outside private institution (in Italy as well, goodbye democracy) of "neutral technocrat" free market ideologues imposing the theft of austerity. And the rest of society pays for the failures of the market and the state.
And if you're one of those police trying to enforce the theft from the people, or one of the bankers initiating it, then you should expect that molotov as much as any normal thief would expect the police to come for a visit and toss them in jail.


And who do the EU technocrats put in charge? Actual Fascists (new window).

/not a Godwin; I'm not bringing up Hitler
//And, as the link shows, it isn't hyperbole
 
2012-02-12 07:43:08 PM

LemSkroob: Its Greece. They want to sit in their coffee lounges for 8 hours a day and get paid for it. They haven't had a productive citizen since Aristotle


The let them.

Just don't lend them any money.

Deadbeats will be deadbeats. If someone wants to be profit from lending to deadbeats, let them take all the risk.
 
2012-02-12 07:45:24 PM

Weaver95: so here's one scenario - Greece implodes into civil war. Turkey decides that this is a great time to shift the borders a bit, and gets into a tiff with remaining loyalist elements within Greece. NATO (and the UN) try to play peacemaker while the guys in suits divide up whatever's left of the country's infrastucture.

meanwhile, Iran completes its nuclear weapons program, prompting Israel to launch a coordinated attack on Iran. iran strikes back, forging a hasty alliance with Jordan, Egypt, and quiet backing from saudi arabia and Iraq.

Here in the US, members of congress (deeply indebted to both banking interests AND Israel lobbyists) push to get the United States to put troops into the Israeli warzone to help the jews fight their war....but they're hampered by the accelerating collapse of the eurozone economy, which is spiking unemployment here in the states. Homeland security and domestic police forces begin an unprecedented crackdown on political dissidents.

China....well, we can cover that later, if there's any interest.


Nope. Turkey might use this opportunity to boost their Cypriot client's, though. It's difficult to say if they will however; putting aside all the other stuff going on in the region they're worried about tight now, the people who really run the EU -France and Germany- wouldn't like it, hurting Turkey's bid for EU membership. On the other, both France and Germany have been doing every desperate thing they can think of to stall Turkish accession for a decade now (Turks aren't "real" Euros, apparently, unlike Serbians), and a growing number of Turks don't really see the benefit to joining any longer. I doubt the "solution" on display in Greece and Italy will improve their opinion any.
 
2012-02-12 07:46:38 PM

Heron: Nope. Turkey might use this opportunity to boost their Cypriot client'sclients relative position, though


bluh.

FTFM
 
2012-02-12 07:53:20 PM
Short version: The protestors would rather burn Greece that give up free EU money.
 
2012-02-12 07:55:58 PM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Wow they have it backwards. You're supposed to pillage before you burn.


If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing - and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order.
 
2012-02-12 08:00:50 PM

Weaver95: so here's one scenario - Greece implodes into civil war. Turkey decides that this is a great time to shift the borders a bit, and gets into a tiff with remaining loyalist elements within Greece. NATO (and the UN) try to play peacemaker while the guys in suits divide up whatever's left of the country's infrastucture.

meanwhile, Iran completes its nuclear weapons program, prompting Israel to launch a coordinated attack on Iran. iran strikes back, forging a hasty alliance with Jordan, Egypt, and quiet backing from saudi arabia and Iraq.

Here in the US, members of congress (deeply indebted to both banking interests AND Israel lobbyists) push to get the United States to put troops into the Israeli warzone to help the jews fight their war....but they're hampered by the accelerating collapse of the eurozone economy, which is spiking unemployment here in the states. Homeland security and domestic police forces begin an unprecedented crackdown on political dissidents.

China....well, we can cover that later, if there's any interest.


It's funny how your stupid crackpot scenarios never come to fruition
 
2012-02-12 08:04:47 PM

Dinjiin: Heck, they don't even need to cook the books. Corporate welfare is wide out in the open in many nations, with many voters in favor of legislators who "bring home the bacon" when it benefits their districts. Graft and corruption that is hidden away is just the icing on the top.


Well, that's the thing. As pertains to Greece, the government paid off Goldman Sachs among others to cook the books for over a decade to hide Greek deficit spending and their actual level of debt, which kept Greek sovereign debt at a fraudulently-high credit rating. Not only that, the IMF and Greek government kept a tight lid on it until Papandreou blew the whistle on it and S&P later downgraded Greek debt to junk bond status. Of course by that time Greek debt had already been sold, securitized and resold, so while a handful of people are making out like bandits (former Greek officials, corporations especially the major banks who are the ones being bailed out in the end) the Greek people are being left with the check in the form of austerity measures.

Journalists aren't comparing the Greek government to Lehman Brothers for nothing, and it's pretty much dead accurate.
 
2012-02-12 08:04:53 PM
Ahh, the product of socialism, isn't it great?
 
2012-02-12 08:06:46 PM

Anagrammer: Short version: The protestors would rather burn Greece that give up free EU money.


What are you smoking?. The protesters don't want EU bailout money. Iceland said "fark you" to the banks and it worked out for them, no more painful than austerity at least.

/seriously, pass that shiat bro
 
2012-02-12 08:09:23 PM
So how much time is the new raft of bailout loans going to buy them?

And what specifically is hoped will happen during that time?
 
2012-02-12 08:14:48 PM

that bosnian sniper: As pertains to Greece, the government paid off Goldman Sachs among others to cook the books for over a decade to hide Greek deficit spending and their actual level of debt, which kept Greek sovereign debt at a fraudulently-high credit rating.


They wouldn't have been accepted to the EU without cooking the books. There are so many angles and reasons behind the corruption, it is maddening.
 
2012-02-12 08:17:18 PM
Does anyone have a educated guess as to what this will do to Gyro futures? Should I stock up, or let the market sort things out???
 
2012-02-12 08:19:53 PM
t2.gstatic.com

"Put some Windex on it"
 
2012-02-12 08:26:14 PM

zzrhardy: If someone wants to be profit from lending to deadbeats, let them take all the risk.


^ THIS ^

The lenders knew what they were getting into if they did their homework, and if they didn't it's also their fault. What did they think would happen?
 
2012-02-12 08:26:22 PM

alltandubh: The bankers never forced the Greek government to borrow billions of euros and go on a wild spending spree.


No, Goldman-Sachs just took a contract to stabilize Greece's debt (a contract that made Greece its debtor for far into the future), hid the majority of that debt in hedge-funds they were associated with, used "creative accounting" to disguise the rest, then started betting against them; the same play G-S did to Russia during the early years of its democracy (which worked so well, as Putin can tell you). Then, when the crisis hit and Core EU banks started calling in the stupid loans they'd made in the periphery to drive bubble economies that would inflate their profits, for the purpose of covering the staggering trillions in losses they suffered on their moronic CDO investments, Greece's interest rates shot through the roof (because everyone was calling in their loans at once) and they could no longer afford to service the debt. Essentially, what we are seeing in Greece and Italy is the flip-side of a bank run; instead of investors rushing to a bank they see as unsafe, the international Financial sector is making a Run on States to avoid the bankruptcy their own foolish investments and ridiculous leverage rates have brought upon them.

At the same time, those same banks are undertaking a "flight to safety" -sending the funds they extract to Germany, the US, and the Nordic states- which is why those States have near zero, zero, or effectively negative interest rates right now. This makes the problem even worse for countries like Greece, Spain, Italy, and Ireland -all of which were solvent before the crisis and 2 of which (Spain and Ireland) were help up as exemplars of Free Market orthodoxy- because the intra-Euro spread between interest rates is just as important for their financing as their national interest rate itself.

So was Greece irresponsible? That depends on whether you blame the people who live in a place for the naive idiocy of their elected officials. Greece, like everyone in the Euro periphery, bought into the Freedmanite Free Market orthodoxy pushed by the banks that were its biggest boosters. As a result, they allowed all their industry aside from tourism to languish, feeling assured -as many mislead US homeowners did- that the Ride Would Never End and they could just keep servicing their debt with nifty new accounting tools ad infinitum. Surely, Greek politicians were foolish to think the Germans pols(who were the very first people to violate the interest rate rule by the way, though -funny enough- no stern punishment was demanded from them when they did it) gave two whits about the weal of Greek citizens, and surely they were just as foolish if not more so to think Goldman-Sachs could be trusted not to find a way to fark them over. But is it the Greek 19 year old's fault that there are no jobs for him to have? Is the civil servant -who has worked reliably for decades helping his fellow citizens recover from the horrors of the US-backed Junta- at fault for the panic gripping investment banks which forced them to call their loans? Is it the pensioner's fault that the elected officials who were supposed to understand the Greek economy and understand what Goldman-Sachs did with their debt were completely out of their depth? Those are harder questions, and ones we really ought to be willing to ask regarding our own current situation -an absolutely fraudulent mortgage industry, pols more interested in re-inflating real estate than fixing it, banks and CC companies that can change their rates at any moment without even informing customers- if we're going to be asking them about other places. We want to make this about morality, fine; but let's not be hypocrites about it.
 
2012-02-12 08:26:51 PM

GoldSpider: This will certainly fix Greece's economy.


You nailed it.

Greece has $1.5 T in debt and 10 million people, so that's $150K per person more or less. Labor force is about 50% of population, so actually $300K each worker.

You figure they are ever going to pay? Would you pay, if you were in their shoes?

Amerika is in not quite such a bad state, but it is getting worse all the time. I am already told there will be violent protests this summer---George Soros said so on TV live---and I believe him.

I also notice, a lot of attention was paid to last year's London riots. Stick around, American Farkers; it is coming to a city near you, and sooner than you think.
 
2012-02-12 08:37:09 PM
I hope that the next time a whole mess of youths go out as "protestors" then smash, pillage and burn that the local police load FMJ and gun them down in the street.

This is absolute bullshiat.

You try this crap in MY country and *I* will load FMJ and apply Federal Law on your ass.
 
2012-02-12 08:37:25 PM

olddinosaur: am already told there will be violent protests this summer---George Soros said so on TV live---and I believe him.


Lulz
 
2012-02-12 08:37:40 PM
"I'd rather have my country die for me."
---------------------------- GRACE SLICK.
 
2012-02-12 08:37:40 PM

jpo2269: Does anyone have a educated guess as to what this will do to Gyro futures? Should I stock up, or let the market sort things out???


I'm going all in on spanikopita futures myself
 
2012-02-12 08:39:30 PM
Gus Portokalos: Give me a word, any word, and I show you that the root of that word is Greek.
 
2012-02-12 08:39:35 PM

prjindigo: I hope that the next time a whole mess of youths go out as "protestors" then smash, pillage and burn that the local police load FMJ and gun them down in the street.

This is absolute bullshiat.

You try this crap in MY country and *I* will load FMJ and apply Federal Law on your ass.


And...then you'll be arrested.
 
2012-02-12 08:43:18 PM

prjindigo: I hope that the next time a whole mess of youths go out as "protestors" then smash, pillage and burn that the local police load FMJ and gun them down in the street.

This is absolute bullshiat.

You try this crap in MY country and *I* will load FMJ and apply Federal Law on your ass.


"Don't fight back while we're beating you and helping the banks and the corrupt politicians loot your country wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
The Greek police deserve everything they've had thrown at them and more.
 
2012-02-12 08:51:06 PM
cmb53208 SmartestFunniest 2012-02-12 08:37:40 PM


jpo2269: Does anyone have a educated guess as to what this will do to Gyro futures? Should I stock up, or let the market sort things out???

I'm going all in on spanikopita futures myself


Did you actually read the report Beaks delivered to us???? I am shorting spanikopita (whatever that is...??)

On a serious note, the Greek Parliament has passed the austerity measures by a wide margin. While the $130 billion will get the Greeks through March and their $14.5 payment due, I do wonder how long before the Greeks are back at the tit begging for more $$? I give them until mid-March.. In what I have read in the Irish Times, the EU is also demanding the heads of the three major parties agree to abide by the terms of the bailout regardless of the outcome of April's election...

I cannot imagine all three agreeing to this demand (with noble intentions) and I certainly cannot imagine one or more of the parties not using "Fark the EU" as a major campaign platform..
 
2012-02-12 08:53:48 PM
Reasonable scenario:

1. Greece gets bailed out, Europe goes into a downhill slide, Euro drops;

2. Euro recession spreads to US, deepening our own recession;

3. Various sh*theads in Middle East seize this chaos as an opportunity to raise more hell. Price of oil skyrockets as Euro and Dollar fall in real money terms;

4. High prices and low wages compounded by increasing unemployment fuel unrest in the USSA, causing protests much bigger and worse than OWS;

5.Obamavch studies the situation, and determines the answer is: government is not sucking hard enough on the people, and needsw to suck harder (this last one is a no-brainer, that is ALWAYS what they say);

6. Protests and resentment worsen, giving them a plausible excuse to crack down harder, which is what they wanted all along.

That about get nit?
 
2012-02-12 08:55:59 PM

The Irresponsible Captain: People with no money and no jobs getting upset when everything is taken away, when their leaders don't listen to them, and instead put the people that caused the problems (the bankers) in charge?

That's unpossible.




Actually; the problem is that their leaders DID listen to them. The public demanded lavish social spending and generous pensions, and they elected politicians who made that happen. The fact that Greece is not a prosperous enough country to afford such extravagance didn't enter into their calculations for a minute. Populism run amok.

The were served exactly what they ordered. Then the waiter brought the check, and things turned ugly. Now they want to dine and dash on the people who, in good faith, lent them money.

Beware of Greeks wanting Gifts.
 
2012-02-12 08:56:22 PM

olddinosaur: I also notice, a lot of attention was paid to last year's London riots. Stick around, American Farkers; it is coming to a city near you, and sooner than you think.


Not farking soon enough. If you ask me, we shoulda been firebombing hedge funds' headquarters and tar and feathering assholes like Rick Santelli three and a half years ago.

prjindigo: You try this crap in MY country and *I* will load FMJ and apply Federal Law on your ass.


i950.photobucket.com
 
2012-02-12 09:00:00 PM
Has anyone pointed out that if the Greeks would put half of that get-up-and-go into getting a job and paying their goddamn taxes, they might find it unnecessary to burn their own cities?
 
2012-02-12 09:01:42 PM

Heron: We want to make this about morality, fine; but let's not be hypocrites about it.


There's this.
Debt is actually a moral statement, not an economic one. It's moral character in simple mathematics allows people to justify unlimited amounts of bullshiat to get back a mathematical quantity.
In positions of debt we're told we're equal parties in a contract and that everyone must pay their debts. Well both of those have been shown to be lies, especially "everyone must pay" since the bankers and politicians have gotten away with untold bullshiat while not paying in (look at the bank bailouts or the Greek crisis). From then on, who decides who really owes whom is just a matter of who has more force. When you have violence on your side, you don't really need to communicate or work things out with the other as though they are a human being or equal.
We should be moving away from living our lives by moral conceptions and towards practical/ethical ones. Get a system that's based on need and contribution. Not rewarding the wealthy for being wealthy and having force on their side. We're not down with theocracy or the king or "God" telling us what to do, not most of us anyway. We shouldn't be down with this band of moral hucksters insisting that we owe them anything either. A free person chooses how to pay their debts or make their promises.
 
2012-02-12 09:02:14 PM

Bob16: MrEricSir: Bob16: MrEricSir: So would I, but then again you and I both live in the US where we could actually get new jobs.

5 Unemployed People for Every Job Opening

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/5-unemployed-for-every-j o b-opening/

For an IT gig? I don't think so -- more like the opposite if anything.

Is that a fact

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

clip - information technology has turned into one of the biggest job-growth disappointments of all time.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_39/b4002001.htm


And that's the biggest surprise of my career. I gave up two or three different "dreams" (ov various levels of sincerity, so don't feel too bad) of childhood to work in IT because, while it wasn't my favorite pastime, I had aptitude for learning the skills, and it was profitable.

I would never have guessed that 5-10 competitors for every job opening would look damned good compared to other professions in the 300+ range by mid-career...
 
2012-02-12 09:04:06 PM

sophus_tree: Austerity Plan for Greece Wins Passage in Parliament

Link (new window)


interesting article i'm going to highlight this part here.

Lawmakers accepted the plan after Greece's so-called troika of foreign lenders - the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund - had demanded the measures in exchange for about $170 billion in bailout money. The troika had also made passage a condition for sealing a deal in which private creditors will take voluntary losses of up to 70 percent of Greek debt.
 
2012-02-12 09:08:12 PM

Tellingthem: ...sealing a deal in which private creditors will take voluntary losses of up to 70 percent of Greek debt.


Don't let the word "voluntary" fool you. I'm certain the Greeks were telling said creditors that if they didn't accept the 70% losses that they'd just outright default on those bonds and pay nothing.
 
2012-02-12 09:12:49 PM
Just out of curiosity: Any Greek-American Farkers on this thread?

During my life I have met many Greeks in the USA and without exception, every last one of them was working his ass off; usually for another Greek. You never see a Greek on Welfare, he hits town Monday morning, he has a job Mondy night.

But I notice, all the Greeks in Greece want to get paid whether they work or not---usually the latter---and all want to "retire" at 50, even if they have never worked at all.

Functional working assumption: All the bad ones stayed behind, all the good ones have come here.

Comments?
 
2012-02-12 09:19:50 PM

Little.Alex: Herpy Derp Doo


A guy brings a drugged-up, nasty hooker to a frat party. During the course of the party, the hooker gets well and truly drugged up, blacks out and every guy at the party bangs her three ways from Saturday without protection. The next morning, all the guys wake up to an all-too familiar burning sensation in their precious nethers.

Naturally, it's all the hooker's fault. Filthy whore.
 
2012-02-12 09:24:27 PM

Weaver95: MrEricSir: At this point it's pretty hopeless in Greece. People go to work and don't get paid.

If I went to work and my company stopped paying me, I'd be leaving at the end of shift with a couple/few shiny new server racks full of high powered computers and a brand new generator.


If I bring sammiches and beer can I hang out?
 
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