that bosnian sniper: Weaver95: I honeslty don't know how this is gonna shake out.

I don't know, but if I were polish I'd be shiatting bricks right now.


. . . catch me up--what are the implications for Poland?

/sincere question
//I'm watching this all go down with morbid fascination. . .

Now Greece's got Germany as a partner. Any problems, he goes to Germany. Trouble with the euro? He can go to Germany. Trouble with the IMF, trade, America, he can call Germany. But now Greece's gotta come up with Germany's money every month no matter what. Taxes bad? fark you, pay me. Oh, pensioners rioting? fark you, pay me. Acropolis got hit by lightning huh? fark you, pay me."

Bob16: What you are describing is a situation that capitalism can't fix but since a non-capitalist solution is an alien concept to 1 percenters they are not gonna be able to wrap their heads around any other possible solution.

No. What he's describing is a bunch of idiots deciding to go into a contractual relationship without a solid plan to make good on their portion. Then they continue to borrow money, making the situation worse. Then, after doing all that, they want to just get a do-over.

No.

Styro Foam: When the fark did the human spirit become "Yeah, shiat sucks, just suck it up and take your economic licking?

It didn't become that. Thats the propaganda the MSM spits out and some people will always swallow propaganda.

that bosnian sniper: SuwonROKs: Really???? Unfortunately I only have CNN. With the coverage I'm watching, I thought the only thing happening in the world right now is that Whitney Houston died. There is actually something else happening?

Al Jazeera (Link) (new window) is discussing the story right now.

US news media is [i83.photobucket.com image 303x320]SQUIRREL

Yeah I know Al Jazeera is probably showing more news. I just can't stand streaming video on my computer when I'm using it for browsing. Luckily I have nothing to do at work today so I might be able watch some real news when I get there.

Sad about Greece. I was there for my honeymoon last June. We actually attended a couple of the protests out of curiosity and talked to a lot of the locals. Things weren't so heated then and it's really a shame that the government hasn't listened and things have reached this point.

Styro Foam: When the fark did the human spirit become "Yeah, shiat sucks, just suck it up and take your economic licking?

That's all I farking see in this thread. It's all "Those stupid Greeks shouldn't have tried to have a good life! Don't they know you have to have 10% unemployment in a real economy? Don't they know you have to work longer hours for less pay while the government cuts the few institutions that used to help people along to shreds? Don't they know that being poor is a moral failing?"

When did we stop believing we can actually do good things for ourselves? When did we stop believing we have the power to make our own lives just a little bit better than farking shiatty? When did the Party take over? When did Big Brother start loving us? I farking missed it, and all I want to do in this life is make people realize that there is no Big Brother. He's in your mind, making you believe that things have to be this shiatty way. If we would stand up for our own farking lives instead of the Holy Economy and the Holy Job Creators maybe we could have some farking economic security for ourselves instead of the farking bankers.

fark you all, you deserve what you get. I can't wait till the system falls down completely, The amazing rise in work productivity in the last century means there isn't enough work to go around any more. But instead of enjoying that and living the good lives we could all have we've shackled ourselves to an economic system that requires ever more growth. We're strangling ourselves and I will cry when it all falls down and no one sees why.

Are you late for Soc101?

Came for pictures of riots and fire and leaving disappointed.
"Can I have more juice on the revolution, please?"

After nearly 40 yrs of EU forced economics....the shiat has hit the Acropolis

? The EU was formed 20 years ago. Greece joined 10 years ago.

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/09/greece-pedophilia-disability _ n_1194578.html

Whoops...delete the spaces.

ronaprhys: Bob16: What you are describing is a situation that capitalism can't fix but since a non-capitalist solution is an alien concept to 1 percenters they are not gonna be able to wrap their heads around any other possible solution.

No. What he's describing is a bunch of idiots deciding to go into a contractual relationship without a solid plan to make good on their portion. Then they continue to borrow money, making the situation worse. Then, after doing all that, they want to just get a do-over.

No.

^ Classic die hard capitalist / market oriented narrow mindedness. Totally useless in this situation and unable to change. Natural selection takes care of those that can't change when they need to.

Styro Foam: When the fark did the human spirit become "Yeah, shiat sucks, just suck it up and take your economic licking?

That's all I farking see in this thread. It's all "Those stupid Greeks shouldn't have tried to have a good life! Don't they know you have to have 10% unemployment in a real economy? Don't they know you have to work longer hours for less pay while the government cuts the few institutions that used to help people along to shreds? Don't they know that being poor is a moral failing?"

When did we stop believing we can actually do good things for ourselves? When did we stop believing we have the power to make our own lives just a little bit better than farking shiatty? When did the Party take over? When did Big Brother start loving us? I farking missed it, and all I want to do in this life is make people realize that there is no Big Brother. He's in your mind, making you believe that things have to be this shiatty way. If we would stand up for our own farking lives instead of the Holy Economy and the Holy Job Creators maybe we could have some farking economic security for ourselves instead of the farking bankers.

fark you all, you deserve what you get. I can't wait till the system falls down completely, The amazing rise in work productivity in the last century means there isn't enough work to go around any more. But instead of enjoying that and living the good lives we could all have we've shackled ourselves to an economic system that requires ever more growth. We're strangling ourselves and I will cry when it all falls down and no one sees why.

This.
Hell, before there was less than enough work to go around, people were still living freely and there were still enough resources.
The problem isn't one of resources or work or productivity. It's the concept of work itself and the modern system of hierarchies. That one should turn a profit for others or work for anything other than their own livelihoods or needs.
It's not even like we hit a turning point and now we can abandon where we are. We could have been using a different way of life all along.

ronaprhys: You didn't address the point about tax dodging and living on the dole. Nor do you provide any good reason that the banks shouldn't ask for the money back or have a say in the process of getting their money back.

Even according to standard economic theory, you're supposed to take losses and won't always get debt repaid. As it is now, "repayment" is pretty much extortion. Why should the banks be given automatic control of someone else's government or be able to seize what they need to live in order to make themselves a little richer or change a few numbers on a balance sheet?
In a sensible situation, the two parties could resolve things as equals and each would have a say in what they owe. As it works now, the creditor all of a sudden gets all the power in a situation that was supposedly equal. And all the violence and bullshiat he can use to get his money back is justified in people's minds only because the money can be quantified in an exact symbol. So you're saying it's okay to put a mathematical price on someone's life or freedom. Not too far off from the current state of things, given capitalism and the state have never been primarily organized around free labor, even today with wage slavery people's lives are still just distilled into number worth.

Bob16: Troy McClure: Okay, but what is the alternative?

Gee thats a hard one. How about making everyone sacrifice instead of protecting the 1 percenters at the cost of the 99%.

Is it really possible for Greece to suddenly start collecting taxes quickly enough to avoid a default?

MrEricSir: So would I, but then again you and I both live in the US where we could actually get new jobs.

5 Unemployed People for Every Job Opening

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/5-unemployed-for-every-j o b-opening/

Bob16: Styro Foam: When the fark did the human spirit become "Yeah, shiat sucks, just suck it up and take your economic licking?

It didn't become that. Thats the propaganda the MSM spits out and some people will always swallow propaganda.

I guess I didn't read the thread far enough to see people putting out sane opinions on this mess, I just saw all the Fark Independents near the start. But I swear, here in America at least a third of the people have bought into the capitalist-slave mindset. I'm not being hyperbolic, I'm talking about all the people who are so screwed up they take pride in their hardship. They see being poor as a moral failing even as their paychecks drop relative to inflation every year. Another third are so focused on making ends meet they can't see that they have the power to change the system for their benefit.

We're all conditioned from birth to believe in the system. To see authorities as the wise people in charge who guide us, while in reality they pick our pockets.

Relatively Obscure: So, you just quote-argued that democracy can never "succeed." Fine.

The argument is that a democracy can never succeed because runaway spending as directed by the voters will eventually undermine the stability of the government, leading to anarchy, revolution and eventually totalitarianism.

Solution: enact reasonable controls regarding spending, during both times of peace and crisis, into the nation's constitution. Then allow the federal courts to strike down legislation that fails to meet those controls.

Oh, this is just tragic...I thoroughly enjoyed my time in Greece when I was there a few years ago.

And the Athenians were some of the nicest people...and some of those women; mercy, mercy, me...

The Kaiser Chiefs warned us this day would come.

ronaprhys: No. What he's describing is a bunch of idiots deciding to go into a contractual relationship without a solid plan to make good on their portion. Then they continue to borrow money, making the situation worse. Then, after doing all that, they want to just get a do-over.

No.

And why not?
Why not just have a jubilee?
It's curious though. We've past the point of compromise. It used to be Fordism and trade unions and whatever to keep the masses happy and give them a reason to kick in. Now it's the carrot instead of the stick. Let's not protect the debtors, let's go back to debtor's prisons and just kick anyone out of the ability to live if they can't pay. Jubilees and similar events were used to stave off revolt, but it seems now the people at the top think they can prevent and counter any revolt.
If any economic summit was serious about fixing economic issues they would call for the abolishment of debt for a renewal, open borders for labor as well as capital, etc. etc. This economic crisis isn't a crisis for them, they're just shifting it onto us

Styro Foam: But I swear, here in America at least a third of the people have bought into the capitalist-slave mindset.

Totally agree with that part.

optional: Weaver95: iran strikes back, forging a hasty alliance with Jordan, Egypt, and quiet backing from saudi arabia and Iraq.


Unlikely. The Arab states fear Iran more than they hate Israel.

Super unlikely--spend a little time reading about the origins of and differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. You can't just lump them all into A-rabs or Moo-slims, y'know.

MrEricSir: At this point it's pretty hopeless in Greece. People go to work and don't get paid.

Really the only thing they can do is declare bankruptcy and start over. If the EU says no to that plan, Greece can give them the finger and do it anyway. They'll have to go back to their own currency, but so what?

Because then the rich won't get their money, and Greece will show how easy it is to simply say 'you shouldn't have lent your money, now you get nothing.' That is the other side of the capitalism coin, really: once you owe so much there's no real way of getting out from under it, you just give up and undermine the process. And that's what these lenders really fear: the idea that the system can be set up so the risk doesn't have to be on the lendee.

Troy McClure: Bob16: Troy McClure: Okay, but what is the alternative?

Gee thats a hard one. How about making everyone sacrifice instead of protecting the 1 percenters at the cost of the 99%.

Is it really possible for Greece to suddenly start collecting taxes quickly enough to avoid a default?

Probably not but i wasn't thinking of a quick fix.

My point is the 1 % are really deluded if they say "fark you you are not getting anything now go shut up while i finish my prime rib dinner". Yes a certain amount of people are going to shut up but a certain amount are not gonna listen to that and one of the characteristics of this universe we live in is that disintegration is much easier to do than integration.

They can really cause some trouble.

that bosnian sniper: sophus_tree: . . . catch me up--what are the implications for Poland?

What do Catherine the Great, Napoleon, Wilhelm III, Nicholas II, Hitler, and Stalin have in common?

. . . fish breath?

Pontious Pilates: How do you put out a greece fire?

Throw Persians on it?

Guntram Shatterhand: MrEricSir: At this point it's pretty hopeless in Greece. People go to work and don't get paid.

Really the only thing they can do is declare bankruptcy and start over. If the EU says no to that plan, Greece can give them the finger and do it anyway. They'll have to go back to their own currency, but so what?

Because then the rich won't get their money, and Greece will show how easy it is to simply say 'you shouldn't have lent your money, now you get nothing.' That is the other side of the capitalism coin, really: once you owe so much there's no real way of getting out from under it, you just give up and undermine the process. And that's what these lenders really fear: the idea that the system can be set up so the risk doesn't have to be on the lendee.

Basically what Iceland did was tell the rich bankers and their austerity to get farked and it certainly has been no worse for them than austerity would have been.

The media is trying pretty hard to make sure the Iceland "solution" doesn't get around too much.

Meh Greece is so yesterday. Azerbaijan is the shiat Link (new window)
/One of the few secular Muslim countries

sophus_tree: that bosnian sniper: sophus_tree: . . . catch me up--what are the implications for Poland?

What do Catherine the Great, Napoleon, Wilhelm III, Nicholas II, Hitler, and Stalin have in common?


AH.

"Regardless, on 28 October 2008 the Polish government confirmed their plan to join the Eurozone in January 2012"

Link (new window)

/Still probably all had fish breath.

that bosnian sniper: More like private moneyed interests buy up legislators and/to cook the hell out of the books and stack the legal scales in their own favor, which propels entire countries into revenue crises, which are seized upon by -- you guessed it! -- the same private moneyed interests who buy up and shortsell debt for short-term profit. That, in turn, turns into a debt crisis, which -- you guessed it! -- the same private moneyed interests get bailouts on the back of severe austerity, socializing the costs while privatizing the payout.

This sounds familiar...

This will not end well.

ACallForPeace: This is what happens when you try squeezing blood out of a turnip.
If you try to punish the lower and working class as a whole and wholesale theft/sellout of their livelihoods and their democracy, to pay off the debts the upper class has accrued expect resistance like this. All this done for foreign creditors. Bankers and corporations getting off free as hell, the government being replaced and practically handpicked by an outside private institution (in Italy as well, goodbye democracy) of "neutral technocrat" free market ideologues imposing the theft of austerity. And the rest of society pays for the failures of the market and the state.
And if you're one of those police trying to enforce the theft from the people, or one of the bankers initiating it, then you should expect that molotov as much as any normal thief would expect the police to come for a visit and toss them in jail.

This is what happens when you treat thieves like adults.

that bosnian sniper: sophus_tree: What do Catherine the Great, Napoleon, Wilhelm III, Nicholas II, Hitler, and Stalin have in common?

. . . fish breath?

Invading the shiat out of Poland? Those poor bastards are the red-headed stepchildren of Europe, every time shiat goes down they ended up invaded one way or another inside a decade.

Ah--that's a bit further down the road than I was thinking about.

Hmmm. I wonder if that same template for expansion--on whoever's part--would fit in today's world. Seems like it would be hard to say who it would serve to invade Poland this early in the melt-down.

Got any guesses? I know very little about geo-political economics at this scale, but I am fascinated.

Nemo's Brother: This is what happens when you treat thieves like adults.

More than that, this is what happens when you allow entire institutions of thieves to install organized thieving programs implemented by the legislature after you've put one of your own as their prime minister.
Every mafia head ever is probably going "Damn, the IMF knows how to play it good".

Bob16: ^ Classic die hard capitalist / market oriented narrow mindedness. Totally useless in this situation and unable to change. Natural selection takes care of those that can't change when they need to.

Just another idiot who wants to screw those with money just because they don't like the rich. Totally useless in this world and natural selection is already taking care of you.

ACallForPeace: Even according to standard economic theory, you're supposed to take losses and won't always get debt repaid. As it is now, "repayment" is pretty much extortion. Why should the banks be given automatic control of someone else's government or be able to seize what they need to live in order to make themselves a little richer or change a few numbers on a balance sheet?
In a sensible situation, the two parties could resolve things as equals and each would have a say in what they owe. As it works now, the creditor all of a sudden gets all the power in a situation that was supposedly equal. And all the violence and bullshiat he can use to get his money back is justified in people's minds only because the money can be quantified in an exact symbol. So you're saying it's okay to put a mathematical price on someone's life or freedom. Not too far off from the current state of things, given capitalism and the state have never been primarily organized around free labor, even today with wage slavery people's lives are still just distilled into number worth.


You don't just "take losses". You pursue action to mitigate the losses. Some happen and sometimes you can't do anything about it. However, when you can you do. Pretty sure that the creditors would be happy if Greece were to come up with a slightly realistic plan to pay back their debt without accruing more. In fact, they've continued to loan them money just so they could do that. They've continually failed to come up with anything remotely resembling a plan that their populace hasn't shiat the bed on.

What you're attempting to do is absolve the Grecians of any fault here and blame it entirely on the nebulous "rich" rather than address the actual problems.

ACallForPeace:
And why not?
Why not just have a jubilee?
It's curious though. We've past the point of compromise. It used to be Fordism and trade unions and whatever to keep the masses happy and give them a reason to kick in. Now it's the carrot instead of the stick. Let's not protect the debtors, let's go back to debtor's prisons and just kick anyone out of the ability to live if they can't pay. Jubilees and similar events were used to stave off revolt, but it seems now the people at the top think they can prevent and counter any revolt.
If any economic summit was serious about fixing economic issues they would call for the abolishment of debt for a renewal, open borders for labor as well as capital, etc. etc. This economic crisis isn't a crisis for them, they're just shifting it onto us

The Jubilee, as you reference it, was a regularly planned event that bankers and lenders could plan for. This is not that situation.

If any economic summit was serious about fixing economic issues the Greek government and populace would have no problem ponying up to pay their taxes, making sure that anyone getting paid by the government was actually working for their money or on an actual fully-earned pension, etc.

Bob16: MrEricSir: So would I, but then again you and I both live in the US where we could actually get new jobs.

5 Unemployed People for Every Job Opening

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/5-unemployed-for-every-j o b-opening/

For an IT gig? I don't think so -- more like the opposite if anything.

Austerity Plan for Greece Wins Passage in Parliament

Link (new window)

sophus_tree: that bosnian sniper: Weaver95: I honeslty don't know how this is gonna shake out.

I don't know, but if I were polish I'd be shiatting bricks right now.


. . . catch me up--what are the implications for Poland?

/sincere question
//I'm watching this all go down with morbid fascination. . .

What you forget about Poland, already?

that bosnian sniper: ACallForPeace: Every mafia head ever is probably going "Damn, the IMF knows how to play it good".

Hell, this whole Greek situation's a slap-and-tickle job compared to the decades-long buttfarking Latin America's gotten care of the IMF and World Bank.

The real buttfarking came from US intel orgs. I tried to tell some people the plot line behind "State Of Siege" which was directed by Costa Gavras and accurately tells the story of US torture consultants sent around the world to keep people oppressed.

They were convinced i made the whole thing up. Then i sent them the link to Dan Mitriones wiki page.

It's somewhat scarier in California, where working for various government agencies can have you retiring at 40.

MrEricSir: Bob16: MrEricSir: So would I, but then again you and I both live in the US where we could actually get new jobs.

5 Unemployed People for Every Job Opening

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/5-unemployed-for-every-j o b-opening/

For an IT gig? I don't think so -- more like the opposite if anything.

Is that a fact

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

clip - information technology has turned into one of the biggest job-growth disappointments of all time.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_39/b4002001.htm

Dripdry: I don't know, but if I were polish I'd be shiatting bricks right now.


. . . catch me up--what are the implications for Poland?

/sincere question
//I'm watching this all go down with morbid fascination. . .

What you forget about Poland, already?

I'm just trying to see the connection between the Greek economic situation and Poland.

I know Poland was invaded a bunch, but I don't see a direct connection here. Seems like we're still quite a ways from that, doesn't it?

(I admit I don't know shiat about European economics. It's pretty complex but I'm willing to learn!)