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(The New York Times)   "He says too many Americans lean on taxpayers, yet depends on a federal subsidy called the earned-income tax credit. He signed up his 3 kids to eat free meals at federal expense. And Medicare paid for his mom's hip surgery twice"   (nytimes.com) divider line 318
    More: Stupid, medicare, Americans, American middle class, safety nets, extreme poverty, subsidies, expenses, meals  
•       •       •

11251 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Feb 2012 at 2:19 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-02-12 02:39:18 PM

Mrbogey: Why can't someone criticize federal spending when they've used federal money in the past?


In the past?
 
2012-02-12 02:39:33 PM

what_now: Early yesterday morning, Valerie and Rob Shirk corralled their 10 homeschooled children into their van for the 2 1/2-hour drive from their home in Connecticut to Boston, arriving just in time to hear Sarah Palin denounce government-run health care at the tea party movement rally on Boston Common.

For the Shirks, it was a day for their children to seek inspiration from Palin and the other speakers, who questioned Obama's patriotism and at least one of whom referred to him repeatedly as Barack Hussein.

The couple, who rely on Medicaid for their health care, were also upset about the nation's new health reforms.

When asked why her family used state-subsidized health care when she criticized people who take handouts, Valerie Shirk said she did not want to stop having children, and that her husband's income was not enough to cover the family with private insurance.

"I know there's a dichotomy because of what we get from the state,'' she said. "But I just look at each of my children as a blessing.''


But all those welfare moms, cranking out babies for a bigger paycheck... why they're just horrible.
 
2012-02-12 02:39:41 PM

DrRatchet: Aarontology: While still taking the benefits they believe shouldn't exist for other people

While still taking the benefits they don't believe are benefits. It's a Tax Credit, man.


[CraigTNelson.jpg]
 
2012-02-12 02:39:50 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: so what? do you want his mom to not use medicare because of the views of her son?

NYT is really sinking. no wonder they are losing so much money.


you're on welfare, aren't you?
 
2012-02-12 02:40:39 PM

treecologist: Why are so many people like this?


Dunning-Kruger Effect. Mild sociopathy. Lack of critical thinking skills. There are many reasons.
 
2012-02-12 02:40:44 PM

Mrbogey: Why can't someone criticize federal spending when they've used federal money in the past?

Can people who have called 911 never criticize the police?


Aww. Nice try. You get half a cookie.
 
2012-02-12 02:41:18 PM
But many older residents in Chisago say this problem belongs to younger generations. They paid what they were told; they want to collect what they were promised.


Read that a few times.
 
2012-02-12 02:41:48 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: so what? do you want his mom to not use medicare because of the views of her son?

NYT is really sinking. no wonder they are losing so much money.


We want the son to be grateful that government healthcare helped his mom out. No wonder you suck so much at posting.
 
2012-02-12 02:42:02 PM
Fear and Self-loathing in the Tea Party.
 
2012-02-12 02:42:38 PM

theorellior: treecologist: Why are so many people like this?

Dunning-Kruger Effect. Mild sociopathy. Lack of critical thinking skills. There are many reasons.


they sure do get hostile when you point out their flawed logic.

teabagger: 'end government subsidies!'
fark: 'um...aren't you on medicare?'
teabagger: [volcanic rage] 'THAT'S DIFFERENT!'
fark: 'oooook then. i'm gonna back out of the room and not make any sudden moves'
 
2012-02-12 02:43:18 PM

HeartBurnKid: what_now: Early yesterday morning, Valerie and Rob Shirk corralled their 10 homeschooled children into their van for the 2 1/2-hour drive from their home in Connecticut to Boston, arriving just in time to hear Sarah Palin denounce government-run health care at the tea party movement rally on Boston Common.

For the Shirks, it was a day for their children to seek inspiration from Palin and the other speakers, who questioned Obama's patriotism and at least one of whom referred to him repeatedly as Barack Hussein.

The couple, who rely on Medicaid for their health care, were also upset about the nation's new health reforms.

When asked why her family used state-subsidized health care when she criticized people who take handouts, Valerie Shirk said she did not want to stop having children, and that her husband's income was not enough to cover the family with private insurance.

"I know there's a dichotomy because of what we get from the state,'' she said. "But I just look at each of my children as a blessing.''

But all those welfare moms, cranking out babies for a bigger paycheck... why they're just horrible.


Someone needs to tell this woman "It's a uterus, not a clown car."
 
2012-02-12 02:43:27 PM
Why do all these homosexuals government agencies keep sucking my dick giving me money.
 
2012-02-12 02:43:33 PM

HeartBurnKid: But all those welfare moms, cranking out babies for a bigger paycheck... why they're just horrible

near.

FTFY.
 
2012-02-12 02:44:39 PM

Weaver95: fark: 'oooook then. i'm gonna back out of the room and not make any sudden moves'


You wouldn't want to trigger any Second Amendment solutions.
 
2012-02-12 02:44:44 PM

CravenMorehead: Fear and Self-loathing in the Tea Party.


there seems to be a LOT of fear and self loathing on the Republican side these days. they're mad that they've gotta rely on government hand outs to survive. they're pissed off that they get caught crusing gay sex sites during CPAC. They're mad about the entire internet picking apart their insane tax policies.

lots of rage there.
 
2012-02-12 02:45:23 PM

treecologist: It's the old "it's OK when I do it" problem.

NYT ran a story several years ago about women at an abortion clinic in the midwest. Most of the women seeking abortions thought they should be illegal. When asked why they were getting an abortion, they explained that their situation was special and they didn't have a choice.

Why are so many people like this?


For the same reason you don't see rich idiots who want their taxes increased donating extra money to the government. It doesn't matter if one person does it. The government doesn't care if it gets a few thousand extra from you or me, nor does it care if it has to give that much back to either of us. Not when our GNP is measured in trillions. And as long as that's true, there's no reason they shouldn't be taking advantage of it.
 
2012-02-12 02:46:22 PM
All the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance in that story has convinced me that humanity is pointless and we should just give up and give up the earth to the dolphins.

/Ok a tad dramatic...but goddamn how can people be this stupid and hypocritical
 
2012-02-12 02:47:05 PM

theorellior: Weaver95: fark: 'oooook then. i'm gonna back out of the room and not make any sudden moves'

You wouldn't want to trigger any Second Amendment solutions.


my level of death threats HAS picked up this year. And not just directed at my 'Weaver95' moniker either. i've gotten credible death threats from people via facebook who are unaware of my internet disguise and reacted negatively to some offhanded commentary about Santorum.
 
2012-02-12 02:48:31 PM
He makes about $39,000 a year and wants you to know that he does not need any help from the federal government...Yet this year, as in each of the past three years, Mr. Gulbranson, 57, is counting on a payment of several thousand dollars from the federal government, a subsidy for working families called the earned-income tax credit.


I thought this was impossible, but low and behold you can earn 156% of the median wage in this country and still not only avoid paying federal income taxes, but get a check in the mail every year from them for $1000 to support you and your crotchfruit.

Link (new window)

although I think he could be an asshole (although I'm not sure how you lump his parent's healthcare expense onto his costs) what it really confirms is the liberal goal of getting every person possible hooked up on benefits has been much more successful than the media has ever acknowledged before. I've played around with the EITC calculators many times before and never bothered jacking them north of the poverty rate because I (naively) assumed the goal was to help people out of poverty, not turn middle class americans into welfare recipients. I never would have dreamed you could still receive a credit when you are earning $19 an hour for a fulltime job with benefits.

this family is like at twice the federal poverty limit or something. he earns a shiatload more than working class Americans usually do. why the hell are we giving thoroughly middle class americans cash payments instead of asking for a contribution during tax time?

I hate you douchebags on the left. invite half the world here to compete for jobs with our citizens then subsidize everyone of them when their wages take a hit. it won't be long before your dream of enriching the world at our expense while simultaneously making good for the lost wages with money from china bankrupts this nation. when we combine your ridiculous grasp of economics with your desire to turn all of america into the third world so you can check off that stupid box on your progressive card, plus your affinity for war mongering, a Constitution shredding police state, and the war on drugs, it's hard to imagine how anyone but a gay dude looking to get married could take you dipshiats seriously. go kill yourselves.
 
2012-02-12 02:48:34 PM

Party Boy: But many older residents in Chisago say this problem belongs to younger generations. They paid what they were told; they want to collect what they were promised.


Read that a few times.


I doubt many people who are that exemplary of the "I got mine, so fark you" mentality have any idea what the word posterity means in the Preamble.
 
2012-02-12 02:48:51 PM
EITC is a tax credit, or a reduction in the taxes you owe, it may be received as part of the refund from the taxes you paid, but it's still money you earned, so how is that a "subsidy" from the government? Or is every check from the governtment a "benefit"
 
2012-02-12 02:49:26 PM

Weaver95: my level of death threats HAS picked up this year. And not just directed at my 'Weaver95' moniker either. i've gotten credible death threats from people via facebook who are unaware of my internet disguise and reacted negatively to some offhanded commentary about Santorum.


I've only trolled my FB peeps few times, and sadly the people I was hoping to get all derped out didn't take the bait. Some of that might have to do with the couple of times they actually did and I managed to mop the floor with them.

Say what you want about the Politics Tab, it certainly sharpens your debating skills.
 
2012-02-12 02:49:55 PM

relcec: although I think he could be an asshole (although I'm not sure how you lump his parent's healthcare expense onto his costs) what it really confirms is the liberal goal of getting every person possible hooked up on benefits has been much more successful than the media has ever acknowledged before


The confirmation bias is strong in you, young padawan.
 
2012-02-12 02:50:18 PM
King Something:
i.imgur.com
CAUTION: WIDE RIGHT TURNS


FTFY
 
2012-02-12 02:50:31 PM

ghare: "Dean P. Lacy, a professor of political science at Dartmouth College, has identified a twist on that theme in American politics over the last generation. Support for Republican candidates, who generally promise to cut government spending, has increased since 1980 in states where the federal government spends more than it collects. The greater the dependence, the greater the support for Republican candidates.

Conversely, states that pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits tend to support Democratic candidates. And Professor Lacy found that the pattern could not be explained by demographics or social issues."

So they're junkies blaming their dealers.


To the rightards, it's all about wanting to hurt other people, even when they are the ones getting hurt.

When you drag a sheep into a lions den, the lions don't see you bringing in a meal. They see TWO meals coming in.
 
2012-02-12 02:50:50 PM
So he proves his own point.
 
2012-02-12 02:52:18 PM

relcec: I hate you douchebags on the left. invite half the world here to compete for jobs with our citizens then subsidize everyone of them when their wages take a hit. it won't be long before your dream of enriching the world at our expense while simultaneously making good for the lost wages with money from china bankrupts this nation. when we combine your ridiculous grasp of economics with your desire to turn all of america into the third world so you can check off that stupid box on your progressive card, plus your affinity for war mongering, a Constitution shredding police state, and the war on drugs, it's hard to imagine how anyone but a gay dude looking to get married could take you dipshiats seriously. go kill yourselves.


Cry moar, emo teabagger.
 
2012-02-12 02:52:26 PM

Kumana Wanalaia: You fools. If only we'd turned social security into private accounts invested in the stock market, we'd all be rich now.

Rich. RICH!


I know you're being snide and not serious but...

http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/02/retirement/stofunion_socsec/index.htm

Well, if we had, we'd be 2-3 years into the plan, those collecting SS from retirement would have lost nothing, those getting in would have reaped huge returns on their plans as the market went up a few thousand from 2009 to today.

The effect this would have on budgeting is we'd have a slightly higher deficit due to lower SS returns (or maybe the investment tide would have boosted returns) and we'd still have a AAA credit rating. And those diverting 4% of their income to savings would have a brighter retirement future down the road.
 
2012-02-12 02:53:06 PM
Gosh, what a parasitic leech this guy is.

/liberal
 
2012-02-12 02:53:27 PM

Serious Black: Party Boy: But many older residents in Chisago say this problem belongs to younger generations. They paid what they were told; they want to collect what they were promised.


Read that a few times.

I doubt many people who are that exemplary of the "I got mine, so fark you" mentality have any idea what the word posterity means in the Preamble.


I like the tie in. Subtle complexity considering the topic.

/smart button
 
2012-02-12 02:53:51 PM
She counts herself among them. She lives on $1,220 a month in Social Security benefits and relied on Medicare to pay for an operation in November.

She believes that she is taking more from the government than she paid in taxes. She worries about the consequences for her grandchildren. She said she would like politicians to propose solutions.

"We're reasonable people," she said. "We're not going to say, 'Give it to me and let my grandchildren suffer.' I think they underestimate seniors when they think that way."

But she cannot imagine asking people to pay higher taxes. And as she considered making do with less, she started to cry.


This is the problem in a nutshell. "Sure there's a problem, but someone (not me!) needs to come up with a solution and that solution can't negatively impact anyone as far as benefits offered or taxes raised".

Most of the people in the article (with the exception of the Falks) seem to be waiting for some sort of magic that will increase benefits and lower taxes. And I don;t really blame them to be honest. They've swallowed years and years of propaganda about how there's plenty of savings that can be realized in some way that will never have a negative effect on them as well as the erroneous idea that YOU get benefits that you have paid for, THEY are on welfare.

It's no wonder there's such a disconnect.
 
2012-02-12 02:54:02 PM

theorellior: I've only trolled my FB peeps few times, and sadly the people I was hoping to get all derped out didn't take the bait. Some of that might have to do with the couple of times they actually did and I managed to mop the floor with them.

Say what you want about the Politics Tab, it certainly sharpens your debating skills.


I kind of did...bad things...to a few people's views on the Republican party. so much so that I think i'm now something of a paria among the old high school crowd. A lot of them found Jesus in a big way. which is ok...I mean, it works for them right? I just said it wasn't my thing and it didn't go over well with a lot of 'em.
 
2012-02-12 02:55:30 PM
Liberals need to stop subsidizing Conservatives. It's blindingly obvious.

Liberals are better educated. Statistics show it, as well as the overwhelmingly anti-intellectual sentiment of the modern day Republican party.
Better educated people make more money. They make more, and know how to spend within their means.
Liberal states pay more in taxes than they get in benefits. Conservative states pay little and take a lot.

Yet it's the conservatives who whine about government intrusion in their lives, while liberals are always trying to increase social services. I have a brilliant idea, let's stop social services, liberals. We're smart, we know how to manage our money. Give those backwards knuckle-draggers the small government they think they want, and they can starve to death and die at a young age because they can't afford healthcare in their precious free market economy.

Everyone wins!
 
2012-02-12 02:57:12 PM

relcec: I hate you douchebags on the left. invite half the world here to compete for jobs with our citizens then subsidize everyone of them when their wages take a hit. it won't be long before your dream of enriching the world at our expense while simultaneously making good for the lost wages with money from china bankrupts this nation. when we combine your ridiculous grasp of economics with your desire to turn all of america into the third world so you ...


You sound like you're on welfare. are you on welfare? Because this sounds like someone who's on welfare.
 
2012-02-12 02:57:16 PM

dehehn: Yeah, my dad does the same. Collects social security, uses Medicare, doesn't marry his girlfriend so they can continue to collect her dead husband's military benefits and allows his daughter to live off of her disability social security so he doesn't have to take care of her. And of course he's a rabid AM radio listener and wants Mitt Romney to fix the holes in our safety net by drastically cutting spending on it.


your dad sounds like he is an idiot.

did you tell him how unethical it is to keep collecting those military benefits?
 
2012-02-12 02:58:31 PM

Party Boy: But many older residents in Chisago say this problem belongs to younger generations. They paid what they were told; they want to collect what they were promised.


Read that a few times.


It's the Times' Ombudsman approved way to say "F you, I got mine."
 
2012-02-12 02:58:52 PM

Cyrusv10: Gosh, what a parasitic leech this guy is.

/liberal


You're the real leech for calling him a leech
 
2012-02-12 03:00:37 PM
CONSERVATIVE: I don't believe the government should take money from one person and give it to another.

LIBERAL:
I confiscate your $5 on behalf of the government. I now implement a policy where the government gives $2 to every person.

CONSERVATIVE: Give me my $2. I want my whole $5, but at least you only screwed me out of $3.

LIBERAL:
Hypocrite! How dare you criticize the government when you take from it!!?!?
 
2012-02-12 03:01:15 PM
This is why the right wing hates illegals. They are afraid illegals getting benefits will reduce the cash cow they suck from.
 
2012-02-12 03:01:46 PM

relcec: I hate you douchebags on the left. invite half the world here to compete for jobs with our citizens then subsidize everyone of them when their wages take a hit. it won't be long before your dream of enriching the world at our expense while simultaneously making good for the lost wages with money from china bankrupts this nation. when we combine your ridiculous grasp of economics with your desire to turn all of america into the third world so you can check off that stupid box on your progressive card, plus your affinity for war mongering, a Constitution shredding police state, and the war on drugs, it's hard to imagine how anyone but a gay dude looking to get married could take you dipshiats seriously. go kill yourselves.


The projection on this one goes to 11.
 
2012-02-12 03:02:51 PM

SunsetLament: CONSERVATIVE: I don't believe the government should take money from one person and give it to another.

LIBERAL: I confiscate your $5 on behalf of the government. I now implement a policy where the government gives $2 to every person.

CONSERVATIVE: Give me my $2. I want my whole $5, but at least you only screwed me out of $3.

LIBERAL: Hypocrite! How dare you criticize the government when you take from it!!?!?


High-functioning retarded. Good grammar, Corky
 
2012-02-12 03:03:39 PM

relcec: He makes about $39,000 a year and wants you to know that he does not need any help from the federal government...Yet this year, as in each of the past three years, Mr. Gulbranson, 57, is counting on a payment of several thousand dollars from the federal government, a subsidy for working families called the earned-income tax credit.


I thought this was impossible, but low and behold you can earn 156% of the median wage in this country and still not only avoid paying federal income taxes, but get a check in the mail every year from them for $1000 to support you and your crotchfruit.

Link (new window)

although I think he could be an asshole (although I'm not sure how you lump his parent's healthcare expense onto his costs) what it really confirms is the liberal goal of getting every person possible hooked up on benefits has been much more successful than the media has ever acknowledged before. I've played around with the EITC calculators many times before and never bothered jacking them north of the poverty rate because I (naively) assumed the goal was to help people out of poverty, not turn middle class americans into welfare recipients. I never would have dreamed you could still receive a credit when you are earning $19 an hour for a fulltime job with benefits.

this family is like at twice the federal poverty limit or something. he earns a shiatload more than working class Americans usually do. why the hell are we giving thoroughly middle class americans cash payments instead of asking for a contribution during tax time?

I hate you douchebags on the left. invite half the world here to compete for jobs with our citizens then subsidize everyone of them when their wages take a hit. it won't be long before your dream of enriching the world at our expense while simultaneously making good for the lost wages with money from china bankrupts this nation. when we combine your ridiculous grasp of economics with your desire to turn all of america into the third world so yo ...


For me at least, part of the problem is how stupidly we spend our money on various welfare programs. Why is funding for Medicaid and the VA always at risk but things like the carried interest tax rate and the home mortgage interest deduction are sacrosanct? And why have we been borrowing so damn much money instead of paying for what we use?
 
2012-02-12 03:04:01 PM

SunsetLament: CONSERVATIVE: I don't believe the government should take money from one person and give it to another.

LIBERAL: I confiscate your $5 on behalf of the government. I now implement a policy where the government gives $2 to every person.

CONSERVATIVE: Give me my $2. I want my whole $5, but at least you only screwed me out of $3.

LIBERAL: Hypocrite! How dare you criticize the government when you take from it!!?!?


1%er: Thanks for the 3 bucks

GOVERNMENT: You're welcome
 
2012-02-12 03:04:05 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Kumana Wanalaia: You fools. If only we'd turned social security into private accounts invested in the stock market, we'd all be rich now.

Rich. RICH!

just curious, do you know where the money goes when someone decides to invest in the stock market?


It goes to enrich the individual, private equity firm, or fund that owned the shares before you bought them. Where do you think it goes?

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: EITC is a tax credit, or a reduction in the taxes you owe, it may be received as part of the refund from the taxes you paid, but it's still money you earned, so how is that a "subsidy" from the government? Or is every check from the governtment a "benefit"


It's a subsidy from the government because you were relieved from an obligation otherwise owed. To illustrate: this year, I settled up with a creditor who agreed to zero out my longstanding debt in return for payment of a reduced amount. This month I received a 1099-C for the portion of the original debt that was negotiated away, because that now constitutes taxable income to me (as well it should). Same principle.
 
2012-02-12 03:07:49 PM
That's the definition of the tea party: cut off all of these wasteful socialist government benefits. But of course that doesn't apply to benefits I receive. That's different. I mean the wasteful benefits...the ones that go to *wink wink* you know what I mean "those people".
 
2012-02-12 03:08:41 PM

BMulligan: tenpoundsofcheese: Kumana Wanalaia: You fools. If only we'd turned social security into private accounts invested in the stock market, we'd all be rich now.

Rich. RICH!

just curious, do you know where the money goes when someone decides to invest in the stock market?

It goes to enrich the individual, private equity firm, or fund that owned the shares before you bought them. Where do you think it goes?


You are assuming the person/fund is "enriched" and that you actually bought shares from someone or some organization.
Try again.
 
2012-02-12 03:08:41 PM

SunsetLament: CONSERVATIVE: I don't believe the government should take money from one person and give it to another.

LIBERAL: I confiscate your $5 on behalf of the government. I now implement a policy where the government gives $2 to every person.

CONSERVATIVE: Give me my $2. I want my whole $5, but at least you only screwed me out of $3.

LIBERAL: Hypocrite! How dare you criticize the government when you take from it!!?!?


CONSERVATIVE: Only welfare to red states and giant corporations is acceptable.
 
2012-02-12 03:09:27 PM

Weaver95: I kind of did...bad things...to a few people's views on the Republican party. so much so that I think i'm now something of a paria among the old high school crowd. A lot of them found Jesus in a big way. which is ok...I mean, it works for them right? I just said it wasn't my thing and it didn't go over well with a lot of 'em.


Most people on FB haven't been on the Internet all that much. They also tend to get self-supporting comments to their walls when they post Fwd:fwd:fwd: stuff. Compare that to even a mild thread here and it's night and day. I don't go out of my way to piss in people's cheerios. It's when some self-righteous dumbass starts derping up a storm where I can see it, I usually wade in and demolish them. Sad because I actually enjoy the fish-in-a-barrel aspect of it, sad because the same logical inconsistencies, obvious fallacies and outright lies have such wide currency over such a large portion of the population.

I'm not talking about things you can actually have a discussion on, like the role of welfare in society or how the government should encourage investment. I'm talking about birtherism, fascisocialist Commie nObamaism, death panels, Christian persecution and arugula. Bullshiat stuff that Rove or Palin or Beck have promulgated to pull a fast one on the rubes, not for any sincere desire for a national dialogue on governmental philosophies.

The whole thing just makes me sad and low.
 
2012-02-12 03:09:38 PM

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: EITC is a tax credit, or a reduction in the taxes you owe, it may be received as part of the refund from the taxes you paid, but it's still money you earned, so how is that a "subsidy" from the government? Or is every check from the governtment a "benefit"


If you had stayed in school, you would understand that EITC tables plateau for certain combinations of income and dependent levels, such that a person can earn as much or more money in total (EITC + Wages) than someone who has more wages in a given tax year. You are correct, though, that EITC can never exceed your taxable wages. So what's your point?

I can't tell if you are being deliberately obtuse, but obviously in order to reach their target recipients effectively, the government will use tax incentives and subsidies that are not directly label as such. Not every government subsidy is labeled clearly for all to see, but mathematically it's the same effect.

Tax credits for farmed land with fewer than xx employees, for example, is a pretty transparent farm subsidy which avoids tying the benefit to the goods produced (which might therefore subsidize the big multinational industrial conglomerate, who needs no subsidy). Again, though, the net effect for the small farmer is the same: He or she is subsidized by the taxpayer.

In order to reach the intended audience effectively and avoid the unintended consequences of other market forces, the government sometimes uses tax incentives (credits) to achieve subsidies. You seem to be confusing the method of implementation with the intended purpose.
 
2012-02-12 03:10:14 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: [blatant trolling]


c'mon...you're on welfare, aren't you?
 
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